Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Legdiwena 01-11-08, 03:09 PM	Would having a second simple weapon, such as crossbow and ammo, violate VoP?
dman11235 01-11-08, 03:25 PM	Yay! Another one! Technically, you're fine. But as a DM I wouldn't allow it. Too iffy on the spirit of the feat.
Dalzig 01-11-08, 03:28 PM	I think a crossbow would be pushing it a bit too far, since it has to be crafted a certain way, making it worth a lot more. A sling on the other hand can be as simple as a piece of leather tied around a rock. And instead of buying manufactured bullets, just pick up rocks. Works much better for the 'poverty' part.
Legdiwena 01-11-08, 03:36 PM	Why is a complicated crossbow a simple weapon and a simple bow is martial?
Hsien 01-11-08, 03:55 PM	Why is a complicated crossbow a simple weapon and a simple bow is martial? Because of usability, rather then manufacturing. A commoner could use a crossbow easy enough but a longbow takes practice to have any sort of skill at it.
Legdiwena 01-11-08, 03:58 PM	I would think a crossbow would take more skill/knowledge to maintain than a bow would.
CryoSilver 01-11-08, 04:06 PM	Maintain maybe, but use, no. A crossbow is pretty "point and shoot" whereas a bow requires more skill and training to use effectively (learning how to hold back the string without shredding your fingers is a big issue, since big bows can have a pull of 100-160 lbs, held back with 3 fingers). Having used both, as well as modern compound bows, I can say that using a crossbow is very easy, comparable to using a rifle in terms of ease of firing, and that a bow is much harder to aim and hold back.
Legdiwena 01-11-08, 04:15 PM	I thought a relatively weak bow (say 40-50 lbs pull) would be easier than using the winch on a cross bow. Never used a crossbow myself, done archery though.
dman11235 01-11-08, 06:29 PM	Crossbow=gun. That's all the amount of training you need to use it. It's not all that hard. I have done archery as well (not much at all mind you) but I could tell that you do need some training to use it without that -4 (non-proficiency) penalty.
Rulebook 01-12-08, 02:00 AM	a 40-50 lb bow is only useful for target practice or hunting things like very small game. and a winch is still easier to use than a bow is to aim. and if you happen to have the cocking lever thing for the crossbows, all the easier!
CryoSilver 01-12-08, 02:46 AM	I thought a relatively weak bow (say 40-50 lbs pull) would be easier than using the winch on a cross bow. Never used a crossbow myself, done archery though. The lightest bow I've ever seen for deer hunting is 60 lbs, and that's a very, very light bow for pro hunters who can put the arrow in exactly the right spot using mechanical broadheads. It would never be able to punch through even leather armor with any regularity. A regular hunting bow is usually in the 80-100lb range, if working at a sporting goods store for 3 years aught me anything. And even these bows are only for deer hunting, not for battle, and certainly not for punching through arrow.
JooceBocks 01-12-08, 02:37 PM	The Vow of Poverty states, "You may carry and use ordinary (neither magic or masterwork) simple weapons". Seeing as how it says "weapons", you are apparently not limited to one weapon. Going by RAW rules of the game, a Heavy or Light Crossbow, along with Crossbow Bolts, do qualify as Simple Weapons, as per the chart on page 116 of the Player's Handbook.
Mad_Jack 01-13-08, 09:02 PM	Just as my personal feeling, I'd probably allow the sling, since it can be made by anybody with a dead animal and some rocks (both of which could be found on the side of the road), but the crossbow's kind of pushing it. As far as crossbow vs. bow, like the others have said, a crossbow is basically a gun - it's point and shoot... The difference between that and a bow isn't so much to do with the draw weight of the bow, but in the style in which they're used in combat. Using a bow to hunt with is similar to a crossbow (and in D&D, most encounters occur at a range where the differences don't become apparent), but for combat, you need to look at the origin of the term archery, specifically the "arch". Bows were historically the original artillery weapon - instead of firing directly at a target, they were fired up into the air at a specific angle in order to fall down onto the target. Trying to hit a person from the front gives you his entire body to aim at, but trying to drop an arrow on him from above means your target is basically the top of his head and shoulders. Also, a crossbow requires time to reload, while a skilled historical longbowman could have three arrows in the air before his first landed. And in my opinion it's the training and skill required to do that, that makes the bow a martial weapon.
Deckinhand 01-13-08, 09:10 PM	While VoP is/was a good idea, it is poorly written and definitely off with flavor. In some cases the RAW goes against flavor (crossbow vs. bow), and in other case it's downright confusing (the whole notion of use). If you're going strictly RAW, it would seem that a crossbow is allowed. If you're going RAI or for best role-playing, I'd allow a simple bow, but not crossbow.
Leress 01-14-08, 01:26 AM	Would having a second simple weapon, such as crossbow and ammo, violate VoP? No.
Rulebook 01-14-08, 02:06 AM	by RAW, you could be armed to the point of immobility with simple weapons and not violate the Vow. But thats just stupid. anyway, if you tone it down, having a couple weapons isnt too bad. you're already at a huge disadvantage by having the vow in the first place, so go for it.
narack 01-14-08, 08:33 AM	I can solve the problem easy. Be a monk. Use fist. you can easily do 60' movement which is kind of long plus you can do the teleport thing for 60' plus the jumping ability which should give another +/- 30' = 150' bigger range than the crossbow, the heavy got something like 120'. Next turn is 6X 2D10 damage + crasy strenght bonus from VoP(if you have taken str as first increase) the only better thing with VoP than being a monk, is being a Githzerai over that
Legdiwena 01-14-08, 12:09 PM	Wouldn't you still need a ranged weapon for flying enemies, unless you're a Raptoran?
narack 01-14-08, 12:33 PM	not really since you made the VoP, you wont attack a Dragon because he fly by the skies. Only if he attack you. Since the farthest he can be to attack you is 60' because with the breath, you still can avoid it easy, if you can't it mean your too low level to face that dragon. Even there a monk can jump nearly that high.
Rulebook 01-14-08, 12:44 PM	a 60' vertical jump is like a 120 jump check or something. ive only seen jump checks that high on an optimized build! no, monks are lame with the VoP, you only think they're cool because of the unarmed thing. Druids are about the only class worth taking the VoP with, and even then you're losing in the long run. by lvl 20 you're nothing but a huge burden to your companions, and are being outclassed by well over half the enemies you fight.
EjoThims 01-14-08, 03:18 PM	Druids are about the only class worth taking the VoP with Warlocks can be awesome with VoP.
Rulebook 01-14-08, 04:09 PM	oh true, i dont often consider the splatclasses when dealing with these things. i imagine a couple of them would be pretty nifty. i suppose the warlock could do some neat things with the vow... as long as you dont mind only playing chaotic good
MAdgryphon 01-14-08, 04:49 PM	To refer back to the question, with what would you buy said crossbow? True it does say simple weapons, but there are only 3 free weapons: club, quarterstaff, and sling. If you play the vow as written, you can't actually afford anything not free. Or am I dreadfully wrong here?
Legdiwena 01-14-08, 04:56 PM	I don't recall there being a restriction on wealth per say. You have to donate most of your wealth and limit on what items you can have, but don't recall anything to say you can' have a small fund. AFB
MAdgryphon 01-14-08, 05:18 PM	"Must not own or use any material possesions." Last I saw, gold, silver, copper, and platinum were material. Unless it's not material if it's recognized as money. In which case just play in a society that recognizes +5 swords as money! :D