Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Uloquiorra 11-25-07, 04:28 PM	Hi everyone, :D I'm thinking about the VoP (Vow of Poverty) and it's possibility to make a Warforged with the Adamant/Mithral Body feat and still get the VoP feat? And what class should I get, I'm thinking in Cleric or Abjurant Warrior. There is any build that focus on the VoP feat? If have this build could please give me the url post or the build per se?:confused: :D Thanks in advance.:D
dman11235 11-25-07, 06:20 PM	No. It is treated as wearing heavy/light armor, respectively, for just this purpose. Though why you'd take mithral is beyond me. You get a higher armor bonus from the feat, equal at level 3. As for adamantine: same deal, but you'll wait a while to break even. As for builds, I'm going to say this as nicely as possible right now: That's not what we do here, come with a character concept, and I'd be glad to give you advice. I will say vague: monk, druid, cleric, sorcerer, barbarian, any single stat class.
Uloquiorra 11-25-07, 07:15 PM	Ohh thats a shame, but its ok after all ive getting the +2 to AC as feature of the character, but now I get a new question: If I go with the Warforged VoPped Cleric core class I have the possibility to put Magical Vestment on MYSELF as my "skin" is likely a armor (even without the feats Adamant/Mithral Body)? :confused:
CrimsonDeath 11-25-07, 07:37 PM	No. It is treated as wearing heavy/light armor, respectively, for just this purpose. Umm... No, I don't think it is. The "armor" is part of your body, and once it's part of your body, it's worthless (so enemies can't salvage it if they defeat you). Doesn't change the fact that it's probably not that great a use of your feats.
runestar 11-25-07, 08:02 PM	If you are not that hot on bonus epic feats, you could play your warforged as per normal, while slowly saving up the cash to buy stat tomes and enchant your body armour, then take the VOP feat when you have spent all your money. While your body armour emulates an item, it is ultimately a feat whose effects just happen to emulate eq. For example, a soulknife's weapon simulates a magic weapon, yet it would not conflict with VOP, so neither should a warforged's mithral body, even if enchanted to +10.:D
dman11235 11-25-07, 08:24 PM	Ah, but there is a sentance which says that it counts as certain levels of armor for stuff. It may only be implying that it doesn't work for classes (that's explicitly what it says I think, but it also adds an "and such" I think). Also, at epic levels (iirc from the thread) by the time you could afford +10 armor, your boost from the feat would be much higher. Also, the moment you put magical enhancements on it, it becomes worth money, so I don't think that's kosher. And it's against the spirit of the feat (which is one of the intended balancing factors: the spirit of the feat).
larry_the_titan 11-25-07, 09:10 PM	No. It is treated as wearing heavy/light armor, respectively, for just this purpose. Though why you'd take mithral is beyond me. You get a higher armor bonus from the feat, equal at level 3. As for adamantine: same deal, but you'll wait a while to break even. As for builds, I'm going to say this as nicely as possible right now: That's not what we do here, come with a character concept, and I'd be glad to give you advice. I will say vague: monk, druid, cleric, sorcerer, barbarian, any single stat class. I see you are only looking over the chart and not reading the rules for Vow of Poverty. First the feat never says you can't use armor it says you can't own anything of value. The effect of having Adamant/Mithral Body gives you nothing of value so you still qualify for the feat. Second the AC bonus you get from the feat is counted as Exalted bonus so it stacks with standard Armor even though you can't normally where it. I believe you shouldn't be able to use magical enchantments on the armor since you can't use magical items at all. The character on the other hand could be a Soulknife10/ Kensai 10 would be able to use its weapon with out limit. So I think we might of finally found a way to bypass the limits of VoP.
dman11235 11-25-07, 09:30 PM	The feat has a list of what you may own and armor is not on there. And it specifically says that it does not stack with an armor bonus. And I don't think a kensai can enhance a mind blade since it's not physical, and it goes away. I think it needs to be a permanent thing.
Awesome_Dude 11-25-07, 09:55 PM	The feat has a list of what you may own and armor is not on there. It's not armor. It's a feat that replaces your skin (the feat doesn't state that you can own skin either).
dman11235 11-25-07, 10:39 PM	Those feats say that they count as armor. And that's stupid, it doesn't need to say that you can own your body, as it's your BODY. But the other feats state that they count as armor for some things. You know what, go ahead and allow it, because the feat provides a better bonus anyway.
Salla 11-26-07, 01:30 AM	The feats only count as armor for purpose of class abilities (such as, say, no Evasion with Adamantine Body). The Adamantine or Mithral body feats are just that; feats. It's not a possession, so if your DM allows VoP, it's perfectly legal and the body plating doesn't hose that. You can't boost it via item crafting, though, as that does give it a monetary value.
Rulebook 11-26-07, 02:15 AM	there are a few points that really make the case for it being armor and worth something... Monks: It counts as armor for thier abilities Druids: it counts as metal for thier abilities the druid one is especially relevant in this case. The metal armor (of an expensive metal too) part of it really means its worth something, and therefor not to be VoP'ed
dman11235 11-26-07, 02:31 AM	I'll trust Salla in that it is legal, but I will stand by my saying that it's against the flavor and spirit of the feat and that it's just not worth it!
runestar 11-26-07, 03:40 AM	You can't boost it via item crafting, though, as that does give it a monetary value. Actually, I believe it still will not have a monetary value, since at the end of the day, you can't strip off your +5 body armour of heavy fortification and sell it on the open market anyways. The tricky part would be enchanting it. If your party members are willing, they can chip in the cost of enchanting your body armour (making the equivalent of +6 costs 36000gp, or 12000gp each for a 4-member party, and make up the slack with magic vestment courtesy of the party cleric.:) The VOP warforged is really in no position to complain.:D
Barloch 11-26-07, 04:42 AM	It's not a possesion, you can use VoP. The bigger question is does the exalted bonus stack with the armor bonus? And perhaps even more importantly, can you enchant your body and not break your vow of poverty? Now a strict reading of the feat would imply not as it says "you may not use any magic item of any sort," though this brings up the question does the enchanted warforged body count as a magic ITEM? I'd say yes since it uses all of the same rules for enchanting and effects, and just to prevent total shinanigans, but if we use the same logic that a warforged can use the body feats becuase they are not items it would seem you can indeed enchant your body. I think another big debate along these lines is the Draconic Husk ability in dragon magic, since its a kind of second skin, and not an item at all according to the description. As was mentioned earlier if you played a warforged soulknife, or indeed a soulknife with draconic husk, you would in a sense get all the benefits from VoP with almost none of the drawbacks. Which I think is kind of against the spirit of the VoP, and indeed the entire BoED, because indeed exalted characters never cheat, and wouldn't this all be kind of cheating on your vow? I think the best resolution is to talk it over with your DM and decide what you think is fair and reasonable.
runestar 11-26-07, 06:26 AM	Which I think is kind of against the spirit of the VoP, and indeed the entire BoED, because indeed exalted characters never cheat, and wouldn't this all be kind of cheating on your vow? Depends on how you interpret the spirit of the vow. The idea of VOP is that you are supposed to give up your material possessions and donate them to charity. As such, it does not seem to make sense that you would be penalized for hanging on to stuff which cannot be donated to charity, much less benefit others anyways. How are people supposed to benefit from say, your dragonhusk sheddings? I think people consider it cheating because it appears to allow the players to circumvent the apparent limitations of the feat (meaning that their rationale is more a metagame reason rather than a roleplay one).
larry_the_titan 11-26-07, 07:00 AM	And it specifically says that it does not stack with an armor bonus. I must be missing this line. I can't see it any where. If you wouldn't mind could you give me a page number where the line that states it doesn't is. And I don't think a kensai can enhance a mind blade since it's not physical, and it goes away. I think it needs to be a permanent thing. Well considering a monk/kensai can enchant its own unarmed strike, I see no reason to restrict a soulknife/kensai from enchanting his mindblade. Actually I think this was covered in the FAQ.
blade265 11-26-07, 09:53 AM	I must be missing this line. I can't see it any where. If you wouldn't mind could you give me a page number where the line that states it doesn't is. p39 Book of Exalted Deeds
Captain_Kobold 11-26-07, 10:15 AM	If I go with the Warforged VoPped Cleric core class I have the possibility to put Magical Vestment on MYSELF as my "skin" is likely a armor (even without the feats Adamant/Mithral Body)? :confused: Someone else could cast Magic Vestment on your Warforged armour, whether composite plating or adamantite/mithril body, and you would get the bonus from it. Unless you had enchanted it, in which case it would not stack with the enchanted enhancement bonus. Remember, that as a Cleric with Vow of Poverty, you would be unable to cast the Magic Vestment spell yourself.
dman11235 11-26-07, 04:19 PM	Page 30 sentance 3. About kensai: But it specifically says that you can enchant masterwork weapons and natural attacks. I don't think that a mind blade counts as either a manufactured weapon or a natural weapon. Also, it would be unbalanced (and stupid) to do this, as the soulknife class DOES IT ALREADY. About magic vestment: Why would you not be able to cast a spell on yourself? It works on those tatered rags you are allowed to own.
Captain_Kobold 11-26-07, 07:13 PM	About magic vestment: Why would you not be able to cast a spell on yourself? It works on those tatered rags you are allowed to own. Magic Vestment, like most cleric spells, requires a Divine focus to cast. A Holy symbol does not appear on the list of items that a character with Vow of Poverty is able to have. Thus, a cleric with Vow of Poverty is certainly not an optimised choice, but might make for an interesting character to roleplay. It is for this reason I personally, would be inclined to allow the warforged its Body feats, and allow it to be enchanted, so long as it does not have to pay for the enchantment.
dman11235 11-26-07, 07:20 PM	Well, don't make it sound like it's the spell that's not allowed. And most sane DMs will allow a small, wooden holy symbol, possibly that you carved yourself. A very crude one too. I know of no good aligned deity that would yell at you for that. And all it is is a small piece of wood with no monetary value, well, virtually no value.
larry_the_titan 11-26-07, 08:26 PM	p39 Book of Exalted Deeds I don't have a clue what you were looking at. Page 30 sentance 3. Thank you I hate when I over look things. I do find it funny that they say you can't own armor let they put that line in. Must of expected someone to find a loop hole or something. About kensai: But it specifically says that you can enchant masterwork weapons and natural attacks. I don't think that a mind blade counts as either a manufactured weapon or a natural weapon. Also, it would be unbalanced (and stupid) to do this, as the soulknife class DOES IT ALREADY. Well I couldn't find the answer to it in the FAQ but a monk is still more powerful then a Soulknife so your ruling doesn't really nullify anything. I can get a Warforged Monk 10/Kensai 10 even without the body feats still benefits from his composite plating (since it counts as natural armor) and magical enchantments on his Unarmed strikes (since they count as Natural weapons) for free. He could also bypass many different kinds of DR thanks to tracery feats (Since they mod your natural weapons). And maybe just to be mean I will make one of my enchantments to my unarmed strikes "defending" just for the enhancement bonus to AC.
dman11235 11-26-07, 08:48 PM	Yeah, well your composite plating won't be giving you much, because at later levels you'll just have bracers of armor.
blade265 11-27-07, 12:23 AM	I don't have a clue what you were looking at. Sorry I was supposed to put in 29 instead of 39.
blade265 11-27-07, 01:03 AM	I see you are only looking over the chart and not reading the rules for Vow of Poverty. First the feat never says you can't use armor it says you can't own anything of value. The effect of having Adamant/Mithral Body gives you nothing of value so you still qualify for the feat. Second the AC bonus you get from the feat is counted as Exalted bonus so it stacks with standard Armor even though you can't normally where it. Actually it does says that you can't wear armor: Vow of Poverty Special: to fulfill your vow, you must not own or use any material possessions, with the following exceptions:blah blah. There is no armor in the exceptions list. Umm... No, I don't think it is. The "armor" is part of your body, and once it's part of your body, it's worthless (so enemies can't salvage it if they defeat you). Doesn't change the fact that it's probably not that great a use of your feats. Why can't they salvage it, it's only a plating thats put on and you could peel it off the same way that you would any armor. Adamantine and Mithral is in demand and is worth money. If you are not that hot on bonus epic feats, you could play your warforged as per normal, while slowly saving up the cash to buy stat tomes and enchant your body armour, then take the VOP feat when you have spent all your money. While your body armor emulates an item, it is ultimately a feat whose effects just happen to emulate eq. For example, a soulknife's weapon simulates a magic weapon, yet it would not conflict with VoP, so neither should a warforged's mithral body, even if enchanted to +10.:D Adamantine Body (Warforged): At the cost of mobility, a Warforged character can be crafted with a layer of Adamantine that provides formidable protective armor and some DR. Benefits: Your armor blah blah. However blah, and you are considered to be wearing heavy armor. Blah Blah. Normal: Blah Blah Special: Blah Blah. Warforged characters with this feat do not gain the benefits of any class feature prohibited to a character wearing Heavy armor and the same with Mithral Body. This says to me that it is armor and VoP is not usable.
Barloch 11-27-07, 02:17 AM	Special: Blah Blah. Warforged characters with this feat do not gain the benefits of any class feature prohibited to a character wearing Heavy armor and the same with Mithral Body. This says to me that it is armor and VoP is not usable. The key words here are "class," and "feature." Mainly CLASS. VoP is a FEAT.
Captain_Kobold 11-27-07, 09:04 AM	Well, don't make it sound like it's the spell that's not allowed. And most sane DMs will allow a small, wooden holy symbol, possibly that you carved yourself. A very crude one too. I know of no good aligned deity that would yell at you for that. And all it is is a small piece of wood with no monetary value, well, virtually no value. I simply said that while the spell might work, the VoP character could not cast it themselves. The DM is quite free to houserule that a cleric gets to keep a Holy symbol, in the same way that he is allowed to houserule that Wizards get to keep their spellbooks, Rogues get to keep their thieves tools, and fighters get to keep a masterwork or enchanted weapon. These will significantly change the mechanics of the feat, and its intended power level, but since it was designed for mature use only, a DM might choose to give a little more laxity. Why can't they salvage it, it's only a plating thats put on and you could peel it off the same way that you would any armor. Adamantine and Mithral is in demand and is worth money. There was a discussion on the Eberron boards about the reasoning for the official ruling that Warforged corpses could not be salvaged for materials. In essence, the body, including any materials degrades quickly after death. This is due to them being made in creation forges that utilise magic to create the entire warforged, including any special materials. They are not carved/moulded out of a material and then animated as Golems are. My general opinion is that since Adamantine body is simply the way the warforged is constructed, it could use the Vow of Poverty. How it was created will not make a difference to whether on not the warforged has decided to give all of its material possessions to good causes. The adamantine elements in its construction are not removable, so are worth nothing, and would make no more difference than the composite plating of a standard worforged. Having its body enchanted, whether the standard composite plating or a body feat warforged could theoretically be done, but it would take a very unusual situation. It would have to be a case where the enchanting would be done for free, perhaps as a reward, and no alternative offered that could be given away or sold. Thus it would be entirely in the DM's hands as to whether such a situation could come to pass. Having the party club together to finance the enchantment would not work, since the VoP character would simply insist that they instead give the money to a deserving cause.
Awesome_Dude 11-27-07, 11:35 AM	Why can't they salvage it, it's only a plating thats put on and you could peel it off the same way that you would any armor. Adamantine and Mithral is in demand and is worth money. I'm pretty sure that it has been specifically stated in the rules that a Warforged's plating cannot be peeled off, let alone sold. It's not armor. It's an integral part of their body. Adamantine Body (Warforged): At the cost of mobility, a Warforged character can be crafted with a layer of Adamantine that provides formidable protective armor and some DR. Adamantine Body (Warforged): At the cost of mobility, a Warforged character can be crafted with a layer of Adamantine that provides formidable protective armor and some DR. You forgot to bold some of the preceding text. They're crafted with it, they don't buy it. It's also a metallic layer, not actual armor. It provides armor, but that doesn't mean it is armor. Special: Blah Blah. Warforged characters with this feat do not gain the benefits of any class feature prohibited to a character wearing Heavy armor and the same with Mithral Body. Vow of Poverty is a feat.
dman11235 11-27-07, 04:18 PM	The DM is quite free to houserule that a cleric gets to keep a Holy symbol, in the same way that he is allowed to houserule that Wizards get to keep their spellbooks, Rogues get to keep their thieves tools, and fighters get to keep a masterwork or enchanted weapon. These will significantly change the mechanics of the feat, and its intended power level, but since it was designed for mature use only, a DM might choose to give a little more laxity. Well, that's getting a little out of hand there and is called the slippery slope. What I suggested was a small piece of wood that they carved themselves, worth no more than 1 cp. A masterwork weapon or thieves tools is hardly worth less than a copper. You see, it's possible to play a rogue or fighter with an extremely strict interpretation of the feat as they are allowed simple weapons. It's not possible at all to play a wizard or a cleric with this interpretation (or a Wu Jen, not sure about a Favored Soul and others). With the allowance of a SMALL BIT OF WOOD it becomes possible to play a cleric. With the allowance of using your body as a spell book (see CArcane) or, if you're really lenient, a spell book it becomes possible to play a Wu Jen or a Wizard. Most wizards however would not consider a VoPov, as it is slightly against their schooling background. It's mostly sorcerers that would take it. But come on! I pick up a wood chip, carve a lion's face into it, crudely I might add, and I lose the favor of the exalted deities?!?!?! That's just not right! I see no reason not to allow a SMALL BIT OF WOOD that's probably not worth a copper. A day's firewood is worth a copper, there is no way that this costs a copper.
vagabonvoid 11-27-07, 04:48 PM	One thing to consider is that if a warforged character cannot have VOP because of one of the listed feats... Why would he be able to have VOP at all? Warforged characters already come stock standard with a basic armor as their skin, and at the cost of a feat (which they must choose at the time of their creation--they are "born" with this) their "skin" becomes tougher and more resilient. A warforged armor is no more a possession than a human's skin...
Captain_Kobold 11-27-07, 07:05 PM	But come on! I pick up a wood chip, carve a lion's face into it, crudely I might add, and I lose the favor of the exalted deities?!?!?! That's just not right! I see no reason not to allow a SMALL BIT OF WOOD that's probably not worth a copper. A day's firewood is worth a copper, there is no way that this costs a copper. I'm not saying that the crudely carved piece of wood with zero monetary value you are talking about would break the vow. However, since a Holy Symbol is listed in the equipment section with a definite monetary value, this crude carving might not actually work as a Divine Focus. I can understand why the official ruling is that Clerics must give up their Holy Symbol, and so lose access to a lot of their spells. It is somewhat harsh, but they did make the point that VoP is there more to make an unusual concept playable, not effective, as opposed to aiding in the creation of powerful builds.
blade265 11-27-07, 07:27 PM	This is what Wizards have to say about Adamantine Body, "Thank you for writing. No, since you have to select it as a first level feat for warforged and you are considered crafted with a layer of adamantine. However, it is up to your DM ultimately if they would allow that",and yes I know that some don't really trust Wizards customer service.
dman11235 11-27-07, 10:57 PM	Some hear what they say and then do the opposite. Now, what good aligned deity is going to punish you for taking an exalted vow? I'm coming up blank. If anything, they are going to support you. It's still not an optimal choice if you want sheer power. There's a shield that you could use. Also, you miss out on a couple other foci, like for Destruction. And all of the spells that bring you back to life? Can't cast, at least until level 24 (when you could take ignore material components). The build is still not as effective. So the question now (as you admitted) is not whether you can have a divine focus, but whether that crude divine focus actually works. Go and find me a good deity that will refuse to honor your vow by not granting you the capability to cast some spells.
Bauglir 11-27-07, 11:20 PM	This is off-topic, but it came up last page. Soulknives can't become Kensais, as their Mindblades are never masterwork, even when they gain an enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. And I'm not looking at the book right now, but I think you can grab that magic item quality from Complete Champion that lets you add a holy symbol to a shield or armor (unless it's only shields, in which case, nerts). Kinda useless till now, since it's obvious enough that a thief would take it with your normal holy symbol so it's not a good backup, and it costs 100 gp.
dman11235 11-28-07, 12:07 AM	Sunder. And you don't need the hand to hold it.
Daeva 11-28-07, 04:49 AM	REALLY REALLY going out on a limb here, and i think its funny, and takes some logic twisting, dont take this serious because its a slaughter of the intent of anything ever created in D&D. warforged were created and considerd items and tools at first, but granted freedom, so they technically own themselves, and they are expensive. so the warforge now technically owns an item of value, themselves, so they already lose their vow of poverty, unless of course they sell themselves to someone else or give up their freedom to another person?
larry_the_titan 11-28-07, 06:49 AM	warforged were created and considerd items and tools at first, but granted freedom, so they technically own themselves, and they are expensive. so the warforge now technically owns an item of value, themselves, so they already lose their vow of poverty, unless of course they sell themselves to someone else or give up their freedom to another person? And by this logic all men own themselves and are worth money and thus no one qualifies for vow of poverty. Do you wish to try again since this will deter anyone from taking the feat.
Captain_Kobold 11-28-07, 09:07 AM	Hey, I'm just pointing out the official ruling here, page 42 of the FAQ. I personally don't think its an unreasonable houserule to allow them limited use, but the VoP feat is there to boost an otherwise quite crippling roleplaying choice. One way of getting around it is the Summon Holy Symbol spell in Complete champion. The difficulty is that a holy symbol has a defined price, so can a usable piece of equipment be made, that is not worth anything, but is just as effective as one that you would have to pay for? As it stands, a cleric's holy symbol has a listed cost, so anything cheaper is not a true holy symbol. Maybe all the gods require is a sufficiently detailed image, or maybe the symbol has to be blessed by the head of the church, and that is why even a wooden one costs 1GP? While you could indeed have an image of the symbol of your god worth nothing, if it is not a true Holy Symbol, your deity cannot channel their power through it to aid you. Thus you cannot turn undead or cast some spells. Its not a case of the deity punishing you or refusing to honor your vow. The entire point of the feat is that a deity is rewarding someone who has chosen a lifestyle dedicated to them in an even more extreme fashion than a normal cleric. A character does not take on a life of poverty knowing that the Deity will reward them with those abilities, even if the player does. If the character takes a vow of poverty, but still uses an item with an actual cost not on the exception list, its not the Deity who is refusing to honor the vow, its the character.
blade265 11-28-07, 01:01 PM	I'm pretty sure that it has been specifically stated in the rules that a Warforged's plating cannot be peeled off, let alone sold. It's not armor. It's an integral part of their body. You forgot to bold some of the preceding text. They're crafted with it, they don't buy it. It's also a metallic layer, not actual armor. It provides armor, but that doesn't mean it is armor.[/QUOTE] Warforged (3.5 FAQs p5) Is a warforged considered to be wearing armor for the purpose of using special abilities, such as a monk’s fast movement? The composite plating of a typical warforged doesn’t count as armor. Certain warforged feats, such as Adamantine Body (EBERRON Campaign Setting, page 50) specifically state that the character is considered to be wearing armor, and thus would limit use of such abilities. While I realise that this for special abilities, It still states that they are cosidered to be wearing armor.
Legdiwena 11-28-07, 04:08 PM	IIRC, the cost is for treating the holy symbol so it won't rot away. I would say you could carve out of wood and it rots in 1d4 weeks.
dman11235 11-28-07, 04:21 PM	So you carve new ones. Since your deity is rewarding you for taking on a life of poverty (nothing I said ever indicated a character taking on this life for the gaining of bonuses), it stands to reason that the deity in question would not punish you for wanting to worship him/her. In other words, why not go the one tiny step forward and allow energy to channel through this holy symbol of no notable worth. Seems reasonable to me.
Uloquiorra 11-28-07, 06:44 PM	I read all those reply to my questions about the VoP+Warforged and I realize that the Vow of Poverty is not to Optimizing an character but to emphatize the history, believes and to get more flavour to them. At my first glance I make a character that represents what the will and history can make with not usual beings, so I think the Warforged make the right choice to me, what everyone forgot is what history the character has, what is the "soul" of them. About the Holy simbol focus, well I think in 2 alternatives: As I emphatize that my character is to be protective with his unique choice of priesthood and with the analytical ideas of a "Construct/Machine" one of the choice is to "make" him with the holy simbol on his chest getting the idea of his "crafted" Adamant Body, why not to make the armor with the holy simbol? And the other alternative is to make this holy simbol as a gift from the priest of the church because of one (or instead the two) features my character make: to aid and protect the church with his will and strengh and to become a cleric of the same church. I really don't know if the above alternatives is viable but I think that the alteranatives are good. What you think about this? I looked on some posts and see that the Cleric is not a good choice to make a VoPped character and with the Abilities that Warforged received make them worst to make him a Cleric (+2 CON[Good], -2 WIS and -2 CHA[Bad]). But what "flavour" character I could make from which class that coudl enjoy too the VoP? A Wizard? A Psion?? I think too to make the Warforged as a Bard too and even a Paladin but its have the same problem. So I'm asking some help about this issue too. If not a cleric good to VoP and Warfoged which class is good? Thanks in advance:D
Rulebook 11-28-07, 07:16 PM	the warforged cleric is a flavor thing. if you're not concerned with OMFGZORZ I PWN stuff its a fun idea, especially if you're rolling your char or doing a high power point buy. so what if you have a lower charisma and wisdom. just how many warforged clerics do you think are out there in the first place? that alone makes you special! and just ignore the VoP... its not worth it. Heck, its only -barely- worth it if you're a druid, or a monk from a race that can naturally fly!
Daeva 11-28-07, 10:23 PM	And by this logic all men own themselves and are worth money and thus no one qualifies for vow of poverty. Do you wish to try again since this will deter anyone from taking the feat. yeah good job, when you go to comedy club and someone takes somethign out of context do you get all defensive and IGNORE the fact they previously said it was a clear deviation from both intent and took a TWISTING of logic? ill make sure everyone you ever talk to is aware that you take having fun in a conversation as offensive so your defense mechanisms never mis trigger again, in other words, grow up.
vagabonvoid 11-29-07, 12:15 AM	yeah good job, when you go to comedy club and someone takes somethign out of context do you get all defensive and IGNORE the fact they previously said it was a clear deviation from both intent and took a TWISTING of logic? ill make sure everyone you ever talk to is aware that you take having fun in a conversation as offensive so your defense mechanisms never mis trigger again, in other words, grow up. Actually, he had a point. The warforged were a slave race; living, just like any other humanoid. Once released, they had their freedom just like other races (thus owning themselves). By the way, the metal skin they have is their SKIN, they cannot remove it without dying just like anyone else... To them, it has no monetary value. Though, I'm sure that Any Creature's Skin can have a monetary value, properly treated:evillaugh
runestar 11-29-07, 12:18 AM	By the way, the metal skin they have is their SKIN, they cannot remove it without dying just like anyone else... Not only that, but one of the ebberon books states that a warforged's plating decomposes into worthless material if removed from the body, so you can strip yourself to sell for gold to donate to charity anyways.:)
Rulebook 11-29-07, 02:25 AM	um... the Reforged really bork up that line of logic i think. not that they're the rule, but it CAN be done at any point.
runestar 11-29-07, 03:06 AM	I read all those reply to my questions about the VoP+Warforged and I realize that the Vow of Poverty is not to Optimizing an character but to emphatize the history, believes and to get more flavour to them. That does not mean that we should not work out just what the VOP feat exactly allows and bans. Just because it is presumably a "roleplaying" feat does not mean that your DM has carte blanche to screw you over unnecessarily when the rules clearly allow something.
blade265 12-01-07, 01:16 PM	Taken from crystal keep Dungeons & Dragons 3.5 Edition Index – Feats p107 Adamantine Body [Warforged] (Eb p50) (RoE p118) Warforged 1st level only Your body is effectively wearing Heavy Armor at all times. +8 Armor bonus to AC. Max Dexterity bonus to AC is +1. –5 Armor check penalty. 35% Arcane Spell Failure chance. Damage Reduction 2 / adamantine Base Speed is 20’ If you want to a Warforged and VoP try this: Unarmored Body [Warforged] (RoE p120) Warforged 1st level only Your body is does not have the standard Composite Plating of a Warforged. +0 Armor bonus to AC. Max Dexterity bonus to AC is unlimited. No Armor check penalty. No Arcane Spell Failure chance. No Light Fortification You may wear Armor and/or Magical Robes. 
Captain_Kobold 12-01-07, 01:22 PM	Taken from crystal keep Dungeons & Dragons 3.5 Edition Index – Feats p107  Blade, you might really want to remove that. Its a rairly glaring break of the rules there. That entire website is in fact, but if WotC's lawyers haven't been able to shut it down yet, I'm guessing they can't. Reproducing that kind of content on the forums is somewhat out of order I believe though.
Aniodia 12-02-07, 03:04 AM	Blade, you might really want to remove that. Its a rairly glaring break of the rules there. That entire website is in fact, but if WotC's lawyers haven't been able to shut it down yet, I'm guessing they can't. Reproducing that kind of content on the forums is somewhat out of order I believe though. Actually, chances are Steve D'Angelo (the guy who runs that site) probably has worked something out with WotC, especially since I was the official Network Representative to the MTG-L mailing list from January 1995 to January 1996. I worked part time answering questions on the net for people with an official voice. I had to retire from this position due to founding a new software company (Active Software). I became a NetRep again in January 1997 and stayed the official Rules Summary Network Representative until January 2004, when I retired. I am now running the Magic Rulings Summaries purely as voluntary work. http://crystalkeep.com/stephen/work.php
blade265 12-02-07, 04:55 AM	Blade, you might really want to remove that. Its a rairly glaring break of the rules there. That entire website is in fact, but if WotC's lawyers haven't been able to shut it down yet, I'm guessing they can't. Reproducing that kind of content on the forums is somewhat out of order I believe though. Why, it's not in breach of the CoC found here (http://forums.gleemax.com/community_coc.php). Why is it out of order?
Captain_Kobold 12-02-07, 09:26 AM	I may have misunderstood completely, but I didn't think that that content was part of the OGL. Therefore posting it comes under section 4 of the CoC: copyright violation.
Frozen Yakman 12-02-07, 09:55 AM	I do not see how that is copyright violation. It is a sited summary that does not repeat the text of the feat. It's either not covered by copyright at all or it falls under fair-use.