Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Scion of Coldshard 11-29-07, 07:41 PM	I've seen a few threads lately talking about vow of poverty so I thought I'd dig out and brush up one of my solutions to this problem. Let me know what you think, but yes the feat does require a bit of dm and player feedback along with people not trying to break it. I tried to leave it pretty open which can lead to abuse, but it also allows for a lot more creativity and character options. If you can trust the dm and players it can work great, if you cant then it likely cant be used easily ;) Self Reliance (Vow of Poverty analog) Prereqs: At least 1 stat 16+ or at least 3 stats 14+ (before racial bonuses) Benefit: You disdain the use of most equipment, preferring instead to rely upon yourself. Your conviction is so strong that you gain benefits above your fellows who rely on outside devices. Each day you may spend 1 hour in preparation to gain the benefits of this feat. The ritual is particular to the individual and can be anything from meditation to calisthenics to running the fastest mile that they can. Performing this ritual for additional time in a single day provides no additional mechanical benefit. After this ritual you take half of the gp allotted for your level and spend it on virtual items. This gives you the benefits of those items and the slots that they use are considered filled. Items which require a certain amount of time equipped before they will function properly must be chosen for the requisite amount of time in a row in order to function properly. If you wish to increase an item directly you must have a basic version of the item equipped to gain the benefit (ie if you want a +1 shield you must have a shield equipped, but during that day any shield you equip is treated as +1 while you wear it appropriately). Items like staffs and wands must have a physical analog to use as a focus and you may only use effects which are personal only (each must be at the full 50 charges value, the only exception to this is the luck blade which may be purchased with less than its full compliment of wishes, note of course that if a wish is used from an item gained through this feat its effects may only be personal only). A potion analog is held in a normal potion vial and filled with any liquid you like, but its scent, taste, and color change to match your mental image of what a potion with its effects should smell, taste, and look like. Items like sovereign glue and bags of holding must also have a physical analog, such as mundane glue, and lose their non-mundane effects if the items cost is not paid at a future date. You also gain 1 bonus feat for each even level you have +1 for first level. You must meet the normal requirements for these feats and they should fit within the theme of how the character is self reliant either directly or by building towards a feat that does. A theme must be specific to the character with a fairly narrrow focus. A player and dm should work out what feats are allowable, but the list should be as close to the core theme as possible. The benefits gained from the ritual dissappear after 24 hours. Special: You may only use basic equipment. You can only use simple weapons, light armor, and light shields. You can also use miscellaneous adventuring equipment (rope, torches, flasks of acid, etc) as long as each item is worth less than or equal to 10 gp (if you made the item yourself this value increases by 5gp per rank you have in the appropriate skill). No item you use can be of masterwork quality, or made of a superior material (mithral, adamantine, cold iron, etc). The virtual items granted by this feat do not count for the purposes of this restriction. Should you use a prohibited item, you lose the benefit of this feat for 1 day per 1,000 gp the item is worth (minimum 1 day). Note, you need to actually use the item; it is acceptable to carry expensive objects and treasure as long as the items in question are not used. For example, picking up a vorpal sword is fine, but picking up a luckstone is not unless you can somehow not gain its benefit (such as by already having the benefits of a luckstone through paying for it with your daily allotment of money). Any permanent bonuses you have (such as inherent bonuses from wishes) reduce the value you may spend each day by half their normal value. Extra special: The character still recieves their full value of money from the adventuring group but it is simply disdained in some fashion by the character. Some donate it to charities, others buy rounds at the bar until it is gone, some sink it into hidden stashes of emergency supplies strewn across every land and plane they can reach.. whatever their method of dispersement though they rarely have more than the bare essentials in equipment and supplies prefering instead to make due with whatever is at hand and trust in themselves to work out a way to get through. Self Reliance (Vow of Poverty analog) Prereqs: At least 1 stat 16+ Benefit: You disdain the use of most equipment, preferring instead to rely upon yourself. Your conviction is so strong that you gain benefits above your fellows who rely on outside devices. Each day you may spend 1 hour in preparation to gain the benefits of this feat. The ritual is particular to the individual and can be anything from meditation to calisthenics to running the fastest mile that they can. After this ritual you take half of the gp allotted for your level and spend it on virtual items. This gives you the benefits of those items and the slots that they use are considered filled. Items which require a certain amount of time equipped before they will function properly must be chosen for the requisite amount of time in a row in order to function properly. If you wish to increase an item directly you must have a basic version of the item equipped to gain the benefit (ie if you want a +1 shield you must have a shield equipped, but during that day any shield you equip is treated as +1 while you wear it appropriately). You also gain 1 bonus feat for each even level you have +1 for first level. You must meet the normal requirements for these feats and they should fit within the theme of how the character is self reliant either directly or by building towards a feat that does. The benefits gained from the ritual dissappear after 24 hours. Special: You may only use simple, basic equipment. Nothing you have on your person may cost more than 10gp and you cannot exceed 10gp*character level^2 in total items owned. If you use an item that exceeds the above limit or a magical item of any sort you lose the benefit of this feat for 1 day per 1kgp value of the item (min 1 day). Any permanent bonuses you have (such as inherent bonuses from wishes) reduce the value you may spend each day by half their normal value. 1 100 -> 50 2 900 -> 450 3 2700 -> 1350 4 5400 -> 2700 5 9000 -> 4500 6 13000 -> 6500 7 19000 -> 9500 8 27000 -> 13500 9 36000 -> 18000 10 49000 -> 24500 11 66000 -> 33000 12 88000 -> 44000 13 110000 -> 55000 14 150000 -> 75000 15 200000 -> 100000 16 260000 -> 130000 17 340000 -> 170000 18 440000 -> 220000 19 580000 -> 290000 20 760000 -> 380000
mathew99 11-29-07, 08:48 PM	So you get more feats, you CAN still use items, and all you have to do is pray a little?
dman11235 11-29-07, 09:27 PM	By far the most overpowered feat in existance. You not only are not penalized at all for not owning items, it's actually a boon. In addition, for the price of one feat, you gain access to, depending on your level of taking this feat, potentially 11 feats. No strings attached. And in addition, those items you would have bought? They aren't tangible. Yeah. And there is a reason that VoP is exalted. It's not just giving up everything you own. It's selfless acts of good involved with giving up everything you own. With no expectation of reward. This is unworkably overpowered.
Scion of Coldshard 11-29-07, 10:20 PM	So you get more feats, you CAN still use items, and all you have to do is pray a little? You can still use a few minor items, you get limited bonus feats, and you dont get a vast amount of the normal wealth a regular character will have. So, it looks like you might've missed a few things there ;)
Scion of Coldshard 11-29-07, 10:28 PM	By far the most overpowered feat in existance. I like constructive criticism as much as the next guy, but this isnt ;) You not only are not penalized at all for not owning items, it's actually a boon. In addition, for the price of one feat, you gain access to, depending on your level of taking this feat, potentially 11 feats. No strings attached. And in addition, those items you would have bought? They aren't tangible. Yeah. The choice between either having this feat or not having it should be roughly equal. Since the items that are most likely to be targetted still can be and the amount of total gear a character has is severly hampered I think it gets the job done decently well. It could use some work possibly, but your comment here doesnt really help me do that :( And there is a reason that VoP is exalted. It's not just giving up everything you own. It's selfless acts of good involved with giving up everything you own. With no expectation of reward. There isnt really a good reason for it to be exalted except for the flavor text. Since the flavor text can be changed then the reason for it being exalted can change. One can do it for selfless good, or they can simply be doing it because they feel that they are superior to those who use equipment or anything in between. This is unworkably overpowered. But why? If we look at level 20 a character with this will be down one 'any' feat, be up 11 feats that fit the character theme, and have 360,000 gp less 'gear'. Can you show a character where you feel this would be horribly overpowered?
Scion of Coldshard 11-29-07, 10:40 PM	I just want to say that I do appreciate feedback, but I also want to give the thing a fair shakedown as well ;) The feat adds a lot of versitility in one way and cuts back a lot in another. It needs to be balanced with the alternative. Losing half of a characters potential gear is a pretty big hit after all! In a normal game most/all characters can be assumed to have access to the kind of gear that they want for their character anyway, one way or another. If this is a horribly overpowered way of going about it I'd like to hear about it of course, but just saying it is overpowered without saying how isnt helping me much :(
Breetai 11-29-07, 10:46 PM	If it's used properly it's not an overpowered feat at all. The problem is that once the crazy power-gamers get a hold of it the first thing they want to do is figure out ways to justify getting around the limitations. Keep it out of the hands of children and it's a well balanced feat.
Scion of Coldshard 11-29-07, 10:55 PM	If it's used properly it's not an overpowered feat at all. The problem is that once the crazy power-gamers get a hold of it the first thing they want to do is figure out ways to justify getting around the limitations. Keep it out of the hands of children and it's a well balanced feat. I prefer to play in games where people do not go out of there way to break the world. But that is a personal preference that not everyone shares ;) Do you see any really easy ways of getting around the limitations? If the holes are easy enough to patch up then that could certainly help.
dman11235 11-29-07, 10:57 PM	Okay, I did not see that it was half of your GP alotment, but still. Also, there is no limit to the types of feats possible. So that's one major strike. Another is that it's ten feats and slotless items for the price of one feat. With VoPov, you need to uphold the highest standards of good to keep it. I believe there is a quote floating around on theses boards: "Exalted characters make paladins look like shifty crack dealers". That's how strict it is. You need something of equal strictness, to even remotely consider making a non-exalted version of this feat. That's constructive right there. If you can find a way of sacrificing the amount that exalted characters do without being exalted or even good as a requirement, then go right ahead and make this feat. I doubt you will be able to find such a sacrifice. That's why I said what I did. Also, I will have you note that VoP requires that you NEVER own an item, not even on days when you don't feel like utilizing the feat. And the feats are exalted feats only. And you may not use a shield or armor. And the other benifits are set (actually worth MORE than normal wealth, but that's because of the two effectively epic "items" on there), not flexible. You can't "buy" different things than what's there.
Breetai 11-29-07, 11:09 PM	I prefer to play in games where people do not go out of there way to break the world. But that is a personal preference that not everyone shares ;) Do you see any really easy ways of getting around the limitations? If the holes are easy enough to patch up then that could certainly help. I think no matter what it requires players that are not going to abuse the rules. If they are constantly asking what if... what if.. what if... Trying to get around it, then it shouldn't be allowed. Only you know your group and weather or not it'll work.
Scion of Coldshard 11-29-07, 11:17 PM	Okay, I did not see that it was half of your GP alotment, but still. Pretty big limiter though, right? ;) Also, there is no limit to the types of feats possible. So that's one major strike. Well, there is a limit, it just isnt as firm as 'only from this specific predefined list'. This is mostly so that a dm and a player can work out what fits in the characters theme and create their own list. Open ended for more options rather than cut off to limit options. It could be narrowed down more, but I am not sure how to do it from the top end without changing the intended use of the feat :( Another is that it's ten feats and slotless items for the price of one feat. Kindof. It is 11 limited feats for one 'any' feat and the items still take up slots if they would normally plus if you want a magical weapon then you have to be using a weapon and the same for an armor and shield.. that places a physical limit on the most likely items to be targetted by opponents. Do you feel it would be better if the items had a virtual representation similar to Magic of Incarnum? With VoPov, you need to uphold the highest standards of good to keep it. This is essentially flavor text though. It doesnt really impact the power level of the feat. Regardless of whether or not a player roleplays the limitation properly the feat still gives the same statistical advantages. The normal vow of poverty also gives bonuses in a pretty poor way.. many characters will find it useless even if they do meet the prereqs simply because the bonuses it gives arent helpful to them. That means that a character who would like to play a certain style of character is basically told no for no good reason ;/ Also, I will have you note that VoP requires that you NEVER own an item, not even on days when you don't feel like utilizing the feat. Actually, you can have a host of items with the normal vow of poverty. The list of what you are allowed is very strange though with some odd quirks. I tried to get around that by limiting the selection to a small set of fairly cheap items. I dont have the text with me at the moment but I believe you can have as many simple weapons as you like. Heavy crossbows are 50gp each, light crossbows 35gp, heavy mace 12gp.. I'll have to go get my book later when I go home and look up how many crazy things you can have and see what it dissallows for no good reason. And the feats are exalted feats only. Which could be replicated to some degree with my feat by designating the theme properly ;) And the other benifits are set (actually worth MORE than normal wealth, but that's because of the two effectively epic "items" on there), not flexible. You can't "buy" different things than what's there. Yeah, this locks out most characters because the benefits are just not that good for them. There are in fact very few characters that have a real mechanical reason to choose vow of poverty, even if they meet the normal prereqs. Especially since it is generally 'more' than the total because of the poor quality of items it replicates and choices it makes for you (ring of regeneration?? really??). I am trying to get past that. With the wealth cut in half, the bonus feats, and a general allowance of low quality mundane gear I am hoping it works out all right. But, I am not really sure.. I dont see the feat as being terribly under or over powered, as long as the person isnt specifically trying to break the system, but having the wealth cut in half is a pretty big hit. Are the bonus feats worth the hit in gear? Is the flexibility too high and if so in what way and where are the break points? Vow of poverty is an interesting idea but it is not generally useful. I am hoping that something similar can be made that works for a wider set of characters ;)
mathew99 11-29-07, 11:33 PM	Actually, you can have a host of items with the normal vow of poverty. The list of what you are allowed is very strange though with some odd quirks. I tried to get around that by limiting the selection to a small set of fairly cheap items. I dont have the text with me at the moment but I believe you can have as many simple weapons as you like. Heavy crossbows are 50gp each, light crossbows 35gp, heavy mace 12gp.. I'll have to go get my book later when I go home and look up how many crazy things you can have and see what it dissallows for no good reason. "...with the following exceptions, you may carry and use ordinary (neither magic nor masterwork) simple weapons..." I believe RAI wise, crossbows aren't "ordinary" simple weapons, and if you're RPing your char properly, you wouldn't use such items as they cost "so much", and you only want to have "so much" stuff.
dman11235 11-29-07, 11:48 PM	My theme: I'm a fighter. My feat selection? Any feat that helps me be a fighter. My theme: I'm a monk guy. My feats? Any thing that helps me be monk-y. That's not limiting at all. Basically, it's limited to the feats that you would already take. Heck, a barbarian who takes this feat at first level: he's now a gestalt barbarian/fighter. And you can't seriously say that if no one is trying to break it it's not overpowered. I point you to the druid. If you don't actively try and break it it's still overpowered compared to the rest of the classes. And the VoP is general enough in its benifits that any class (besides cleric, barring a sane DM) can do well with it. Let's see....armor bonus: check. Deflection bonus: check. Natural armor: check. Ability boosts, resistance bonus, weapon enhancement: check. I don't know about you, but those are the basic things that I get any character. Now, you have some more wiggle room to customize. This is hard to do with a set thing because, well, you can't customize. So you throw in some added extras which are nice ones. The ability boosts are (ex). (EX) freedom of movement. True seeing. No need for breathing OR eating or drinking. Regeneration-esque thing. Damage reduction, and not a small amount. And bonus feats. That's nothing to sneeze at. What do you have to do to get this? Uphold the highest pinacle of good. Even gooder than most paladins. Also, you may not own anything aside from a non-masterwork simple weapon, the clothes on your back, a spell component pack, and enough food for one day. That's it. And the simple weapon? Usually just a quaterstaff. If you can get this feat to have a sacrifice equal to this, then it might work. Oh, and the approximate wealth of the feat (ignoring epic condition for the +8 ability and +10 armor)? 298,250+the true seeing, DR, regeneration, and resistances. Including epic, it's much higher. I'd put the value of this whole set at about 500,000 though. Because of thing's I'd never spend mony on, and things that don't exist in item form.
Scion of Coldshard 11-30-07, 12:21 AM	"...with the following exceptions, you may carry and use ordinary (neither magic nor masterwork) simple weapons..." I believe RAI wise, crossbows aren't "ordinary" simple weapons, and if you're RPing your char properly, you wouldn't use such items as they cost "so much", and you only want to have "so much" stuff. You quoted the bit where it tells you what ordinary means.. and a crossbow by default is neither magic nor masterwork. My point wasnt that people would do it, my point was that people could do it and so saying that they wouldnt for the vop but would for my feat seems a little off to me ;)
Scion of Coldshard 11-30-07, 12:39 AM	My theme: I'm a fighter. My feat selection? Any feat that helps me be a fighter. My theme: I'm a monk guy. My feats? Any thing that helps me be monk-y. Way too general. If someone asks you what type of Fighter your character is if you reply, 'one that does Fighter stuff' have you really answered their question? But, even if they were free, open feats can you say how and why it would be overpowered? I could use a few more concrete examples here ;) Not necessarily specific bulids per se.. but something more than 'it is overpowered because it is overpowered' would be helpful.. yes, the character is trading one feat for 11 more.. but they also lose half of their wealth and are severely restricted in mundane item use. Those are some big tradeoffs! Heck, a barbarian who takes this feat at first level: he's now a gestalt barbarian/fighter. With a rather large handicap in amount of gear. Since gear makes up a rather sizeable portion of a characters CR that kindof makes sense.. it kindof puts them on the npc gear chart instead of the pc gear chart. And the VoP is general enough in its benifits that any class (besides cleric, barring a sane DM) can do well with it. Not really. You cant have a spell book or holy symbol, your touch AC will be pretty abysmal, the stat bonuses come pretty late.. and real gear is simply too much better pretty much all the way around. Few classes can really do well with what it gives, especially in comparison to what other characters will be able to choose from even just sticking to the core. It doesnt really specialize in anything and is kindof lackluster generalyzed around.. +3 resistance bonus only? +3 deflection bonus only? Ring of regeneration ability?? Sure, a character can be made to use them, but they are unlikely to get anything that they really want/need to make the character that they want except in a few very specific builds. But with the feat I am planning here the options are much more open. One can actually make a character that builds to a certain playstyle without having to give up in disgust from looking at the vow of poverty ;)
dman11235 11-30-07, 01:08 AM	Most classes that would have a low touch AC by this feat would have a low touch AC no matter what. The only classes with high touch ACs are dex based, so it doesn't matter one way or another. As for the spellbook/holy symbol, you can use your body as a spell book (CArcane), and if your DM is sane, you can use a small wooden, handcarved, non-preserved, crude holy symbol. Something that costs less than a copper. And I can make decent builds with most any class that has tho VoP. None of the builds would be optimal, because the VoP is not as good a magic items, but they would all be passable. And your feat is BETTER than magic items. When I read through it, I thought "if this was an actual feat, would I take it?" The answer: "YES!!" I say again. Come up with an adaquate sacrifice method, and maybe, just maybe, there would be the possibility of this feat having a sliver of hope. Something on the order of dedicating yourself wholy to good, and never doing a lick of evil, or anything remotely so. Not even some neutral acts pass. I've been meaning to ask, if you feel that VoP needs to be generalized, how do you feel about feats like Able Learner, which are race specific? Or other feats which are class specific? Or vile and exalted feats, which are alignment specific?
Breetai 11-30-07, 06:39 AM	typo
Damned slayer 11-30-07, 09:09 AM	just found a big hole VoP makes you GIVE YOUR share of the treasure to anyone else than PC your feat gives the same amount of gold to the group but spread it differently so overall it makes the group more powerfull consider 2 PC in a group of 3 having the feat (I'd play casters with that feat all the time, tho I always play caster anyway :)) so 2 get 1/2 gear and the other one get the double I would just mean to the casters use your staff/wands more or you will have to discard them but this feat cannot be balanced except if you nerf it since VoP requires 2 feat to get so only human can get it lvl1 while yours everyone can limits the selection badly (only exhalted) and you can lose Vop while you cannot lose your feat nor the one it gives with exhalted feat if you commit evil acts you will lose them all with no way of regaining them, OK you can later break the VoP without losing the feat but better have reason other than Munchkining for RP
Scion of Coldshard 11-30-07, 10:27 AM	Most classes that would have a low touch AC by this feat would have a low touch AC no matter what. They could buy more deflection, or they could get an insight bonus to AC, or a dodge bonus, or something else entirely that helps with their touch AC. They could even go for something that grants a straight up miss chance to help out with their AC in general. As for the spellbook/holy symbol, you can use your body as a spell book (CArcane), and if your DM is sane, you can use a small wooden, handcarved, non-preserved, crude holy symbol. Something that costs less than a copper. I am not sure what the rules are for using your body as a spell book, do you have a page number by chance? The point is that they are not listed. You have to change the feat in order to allow them. Even if anyone 'sane' would do so that doesnt change the fact that it would have to be changed. When I read through it, I thought "if this was an actual feat, would I take it?" The answer: "YES!!" I say again. Come up with an adaquate sacrifice method, and maybe, just maybe, there would be the possibility of this feat having a sliver of hope. Something on the order of dedicating yourself wholy to good, and never doing a lick of evil, or anything remotely so. So giving up half of your wealth by level is not an adequate sacrifice but a meaningless flavor addition would be? That doesnt make any sense to me.
Scion of Coldshard 11-30-07, 10:33 AM	VoP makes you GIVE YOUR share of the treasure to anyone else than PC your feat gives the same amount of gold to the group but spread it differently so overall it makes the group more powerfull Not necessarily. There are many ways for the dm to get around such a thing, plus just because the character cannot use the money does not mean that they dont get their share.. it just means that they get to choose where it goes. I could add in a line about the character accumulated wealth needing to go to some other outlet than the party though. What would you suggest for the wording? but this feat cannot be balanced except if you nerf it since VoP requires 2 feat to get so only human can get it lvl1 Vow of poverty requiring being human to get it at first level is just stupid though. Plus, the first feat going in gives a +2 perfection bonus to diplomacy checks which basically stacks with everything so while it is a little on the weak side it is certainly a feat unto itself as far as a bonus goes. Vow of poverty also gives a lot more gear value in gp than the one I have posted above. with exhalted feat if you commit evil acts you will lose them all with no way of regaining them Yeah, more bad design :( Getting away from design mistakes is a good thing ;)
strenoth 11-30-07, 10:40 AM	the problem he is specifying is that while you character may make that sacrificie, the wealth that woudl normally be allocated STAYS with the grop,thus making his team mates stronger. Of course, if use the wealth-by-level guidelines, the DM should simply cut down the amount of treasure present...
mato_hibiki 11-30-07, 01:48 PM	This thread is hilarious. :D One person asks a dozen 'am I wrong?' The dozen reply 'yes.' In nice, and constructive ways. The one person's response? "NO, you're all wrong!" Utter hilarity. The moral of the story; don't ask for opinions if you're not going to listen to them.
Scion of Coldshard 11-30-07, 02:09 PM	the problem he is specifying is that while you character may make that sacrificie, the wealth that woudl normally be allocated STAYS with the grop,thus making his team mates stronger. But since that problem is not necessarily true that is why I was saying that it doesnt need to happen that way ;) I also asked for a suggested wording to add to the feat to fix the potential problem. Nothing wrong with that right? lol Of course, if use the wealth-by-level guidelines, the DM should simply cut down the amount of treasure present... Which is part of the reason why it is likely a non-issue ;) If a dm has control of their game then it shouldnt matter.
Scion of Coldshard 11-30-07, 02:12 PM	This thread is hilarious. :D One person asks a dozen 'am I wrong?' The dozen reply 'yes.' In nice, and constructive ways. The one person's response? "NO, you're all wrong!" Utter hilarity. The moral of the story; don't ask for opinions if you're not going to listen to them. I think the moral here is that you are not reading the thread ;) Note that there have been several posts which were not really constructively helpful, pointing that out is important to try and get actual constructive criticism. So, along those lines, do you feel that losing effectively half of the wealth of a character is a big enough cost? too big? not big enough? Are there potential problems you see? My assumption is that something like this can be balanced. Getting other peoples feedback about places where it needs bringing down and places where it needs bringing up can help fine tune that balance.
Legdiwena 11-30-07, 02:44 PM	You claim losing half your gold is a limitation. However, you can change your bonuses daily, any other character has to wait a week or more to get bonuses added to his gear.
wonlee76 11-30-07, 02:55 PM	I'll try to be constructive but this does have flaws or at least ambiguities in the way its written. Self Reliance (Vow of Poverty analog) Prereqs: At least 1 stat 16+ Whenever I think of pre-reqs, I always ask myself "why" the pre-reqs are there for the feat. A stat of 16 or higher makes no real sense under the context of this feat. I think I understand the "why" since you figure a high stat helps being self-reliant in some fashion but that's just so broad and quirky, I would just remove that pre-req. Benefit: You disdain the use of most equipment, preferring instead to rely upon yourself. Your conviction is so strong that you gain benefits above your fellows who rely on outside devices. Combining this with the "special" section of this feat, this looks somewhat okay since the special section defines what kind of equipment in GP terms that a PC can carry around. Each day you may spend 1 hour in preparation to gain the benefits of this feat. The ritual is particular to the individual and can be anything from meditation to calisthenics to running the fastest mile that they can. Weird ritual but I'll run with it... After this ritual you take half of the gp allotted for your level and spend it on virtual items. Okay, this is just criticism on a "metagame" issue. Half of the GP allotted for your level... This first presumes you're following the DMG wealth by guidelines chart and second does not take into consideration of the fact that you may be under or over that chart. I would change this to simply being GP on hand or something and that all gold acquired by this particular PC is donated or something (with a notation on the PC sheet indicating how much gold he "would have" acquired if he kept the gold). This gives you the benefits of those items and the slots that they use are considered filled. Items which require a certain amount of time equipped before they will function properly must be chosen for the requisite amount of time in a row in order to function properly. If you wish to increase an item directly you must have a basic version of the item equipped to gain the benefit (ie if you want a +1 shield you must have a shield equipped, but during that day any shield you equip is treated as +1 while you wear it appropriately). So basically you get 1/2 of the expected wealth for a PC but the flexibility to change what that wealth would have bought on a daily basis as needed. That's just a smidge too powerful in my opinion. Not sure how to fix my concern over this but maybe make the PC get stuck with whatever virtua item he chose to "create" using this feat (with the aility to upgrade the item later). I would also comment that the "virtual" items should be limited to slotted items. Any items with charges like staves, scrolls or wands should not be allowed. Items that are X/day types are okay but basically this opens up a huge hole for unlimited charge wands/staves. You also gain 1 bonus feat for each even level you have +1 for first level. You must meet the normal requirements for these feats and they should fit within the theme of how the character is self reliant either directly or by building towards a feat that does. The benefits gained from the ritual dissappear after 24 hours. I understand the fighter is underpowered by general consensus on the boards but allowing a feat to basically give a PC a better version of the fighter's sole class feature? Make a list... make a big list for all I care. But put some kind of limit to it. Give any player a chance, they will justify why their PC picks Feat X as their bonus feat to fit their "theme" of self reliance. Its a crummy "restriction" because its relatively easy to bypass. Basically a "fluff" restrictions are weaker than some kind of "crunch" restriction. VoP requires exalted status which is a "crunch" restriction on who gets the feat. Choosing a feat that "should fit within the theme of how the character is self reliant" is a "fluffy" restriction that can be worked around. Suggestions on feats: Eschew Materials, Endurance, Toughness, Improved Toughness, Run, Dodge, Mobility (Yes, my idea of self reliant = being able to flee with a high degree of success), etc. etc. Special: You may only use simple, basic equipment. Nothing you have on your person may cost more than 10gp and you cannot exceed 10gp*character level^2 in total items owned. This is a somewhat decent restriction. In fact, I woudl say its better than VoP's restriction since there is no "gp" limit on a single item. If you use an item that exceeds the above limit or a magical item of any sort you lose the benefit of this feat for 1 day per 1kgp value of the item (min 1 day). I would just add that you also lose access to all the bonus feats acquired by this feat and any non-bonus feats that used the bonus feats to meet some pre-requisite or other. Now that's a brutal limitation. :P All in all, this is too powerful as written. You get yourself a feat with no "real" pre-requisites which ends up giving you 1/2 of your wealth to basically flexibily change around on a daily basis depending on what adventures you're confronted with plus a bunch of feats with no "list" restriction in exchange for limiting the amount of gear you can carry to no single item of greater than 10 gp in value and up to a certain maximum of wealth... Compared to VoP: VoP has harder pre-reqs (exalted status, other feat pre-reqs) Both feats restrict access to gear with this one having a more well defined restriction to gear/wealth. Both feats grants bonus feats but VoP is on a restricted list while this one is not restricted by comparison. VoP gives a static set of benefits which I believe is valued at around 300k at level 20 (or whatever the number is, I distinctly remember the "value" in terms of magical items for the VoP bonuses was basically 3/4 of the expected wealth of a level 20 PC) while this one gives you 1/2 of your expected wealth but the flexibility to choose what type of bonuses/magical items you get. VoP can be permanently loss if PC loses exalted status or screws up the poverty restriction. This feat gives a temporary loss by comparison. All in all, this feat is pound for pound better than VoP. Therefore, I feel it is overpowered. The only "place" VoP wins is the benefits that VoP gets over the span of 20 levels but considering those benefits are set in stone while your feat is flexible so that a PC can tailor what he gets to his PC, I would say that's an even wash or a slight advantage to this feat.
mato_hibiki 11-30-07, 03:58 PM	I think the moral here is that you are not reading the thread ;) Note that there have been several posts which were not really constructively helpful, pointing that out is important to try and get actual constructive criticism. You ASKED us what we thought. You were answered. It seems what you want is for the collective to 'fix' your feat for you, so that it works. You asked for a review, but what you really want is 'pimp my feat'. Next time you want something, phrase your request in a way that explains your desired intent. As for what I think? I think it's not worth the effort. VoP represents giving stuff up. This represents... Pulling a fast one on the rules of the world at large. As much as I love the idea of VoP, it's not exactly what I'd call great. Sure, we all want super powers, but who wants to actually pay for them? VoP is Peter Parker. You're looking for Doctor Doom. Last time I checked, Doom was a caster. :rolleyes:
Scion of Coldshard 11-30-07, 09:43 PM	You claim losing half your gold is a limitation. However, you can change your bonuses daily, any other character has to wait a week or more to get bonuses added to his gear. My claim is true, what is the 'however' for? ;) Two seperate thoughts there! One does not change the other. Generally speaking what gear a character will want to have is fairly static. As long as a characters wealth falls within the guidelines the game doesnt really care one way or another. Changing out gear can take time, that is true, but by the same token because of finding random loot a given character can actually have more/better gear or worse.. Plus, a character can be a lot higher up on the wealth table than would otherwise be indicated for their level, especially when they are close to the next level. Double edged blade there ;)
Scion of Coldshard 11-30-07, 09:45 PM	You ASKED us what we thought. I didnt give up my voice though ;) And since there have been complaints which made it obvious that the person had missed part of the feat I pointed it out. Taking in feedback and responding to it is one thing, the characterization you made earlier was quite a bit off from what is going on though..
Scion of Coldshard 11-30-07, 10:24 PM	I'll try to be constructive but this does have flaws or at least ambiguities in the way its written. Sure, it can certainly use some shoring up of the wording. Whenever I think of pre-reqs, I always ask myself "why" the pre-reqs are there for the feat. A stat of 16 or higher makes no real sense under the context of this feat. I think I understand the "why" since you figure a high stat helps being self-reliant in some fashion but that's just so broad and quirky, I would just remove that pre-req. It takes a higher amount of resources to get a 16 in a stat. Typically this represents in d&d a character who is a cut above the rest. In a 25 - 28 point buy game that represents more than a third of there stat choice pool. I was thinking about having it be at least 3 stats of 14 or higher, but that pretty well says npc's need not apply, and that isnt really what I was going for. Okay, this is just criticism on a "metagame" issue. Half of the GP allotted for your level... This first presumes you're following the DMG wealth by guidelines chart and second does not take into consideration of the fact that you may be under or over that chart. If a person cannot make the assumption that people are going to be using a normal game how can any feats/items/anything really be made? At some point we have to make assumptions.. assuming that the game will be close to the wealth by level guidelines seems like a pretty reasonable assumption to me. If a game is too far above or below the norm then the dm would be free to likewise change how much this feat granted. So basically you get 1/2 of the expected wealth for a PC but the flexibility to change what that wealth would have bought on a daily basis as needed. That's just a smidge too powerful in my opinion. Why do you feel that it is too powerful? Generally a given character has a certain set of equipment that is best for them anyway.. a character without this feat could have two complete sets of equipment to trade back and forth between for the same amount of gp value. At the point we are talking about 1 set of easy to change vs 2 sets of more permanent I would say that the guy with only 1 set is coming out behind personally. I would also comment that the "virtual" items should be limited to slotted items. Any items with charges like staves, scrolls or wands should not be allowed. I've no problem with ioun stones or a luckstone being chosen. But as written the feat doesnt really allow for charged items like scrolls and such.. not that it should matter much given how the wealth by level guidelines work though.. hmm.. maybe a physical representation for those types of items would be a good thing though.. it would allow the use of that type of item plus give a focus for an opponent to attack should they want to disrupt its use. That does bear some thinking over.. I understand the fighter is underpowered by general consensus on the boards but allowing a feat to basically give a PC a better version of the fighter's sole class feature? If the fighter had to give up half of his wealth to be a fighter I might agree with it being a problem.. but as it is? Take the example of the barbarian -> fighter/barbarian gestalt that was given earlier. If we assume that all that is gained vs the barbarian are the bonus feats would you make this trade if the dm told you that you would also be at half of your gold for each level? Oh, and you have to spend a feat to do it ;) This is a somewhat decent restriction. In fact, I woudl say its better than VoP's restriction since there is no "gp" limit on a single item. Cool ;) Although I am not sure if 10gp is correct.. I just guessed at a decent number.. it gets a decent selection of basic weapons, leather armor, a shield, and some of the bare essential mundane item list. I would just add that you also lose access to all the bonus feats acquired by this feat and any non-bonus feats that used the bonus feats to meet some pre-requisite or other. Now that's a brutal limitation. I dont understand.. it already says you lose the benefits of the feat.. saying that the feats are lost is just repeating what it already says.. is it not clear from the feat that the bonus feats are a bonus given from the feat? :confused: You get yourself a feat with no "real" pre-requisites which ends up giving you 1/2 of your wealth to basically flexibily change around on a daily basis Considering what I have said above do you still feel that this is such a huge issue? VoP gives a static set of benefits which I believe is valued at around 300k at level 20 I suppose that depends on how you count it.. +10 armor bonus = 100,000 if we price it like bracers of armor Ring of regeneration = 90,000 15 energy resist to acid, cold, electricity, fire, sonic = ~26,000 each = 130,000 +8/+6/+4/+2 enhancements (not assuming epic pricing) = 120,000 10/evil DR = I dont know, lots and lots? Likely a minimum of around 70,000 True Seeing continuously = 150,000 minimum if we go by the gem of seeing At least one +5 weapon = 50,000 = 730,000 already.. and I wasnt done with all of the bonuses yet ;) VoP can be permanently loss if PC loses exalted status or screws up the poverty restriction. Which is very, very poor design. Getting away from design mistakes is a Good Thing. Let me know what you think about these points ;)
Thugg 12-01-07, 02:21 AM	VoP replication you say? Let's count, shall we? Mithral breastplate +5 = 29.5k gold PARTIAL ring of regeneration. (no restoring lost limbs) I'd give that 60K Energy Resist +15 all elements ( You priced wrongly, as a ring of energy resist 20 is 28k, so the best average price for +15 would be 20k) total cost; 20k x 5 = 100k ( a ring of UNIVERSAL energy resist +15 would cost about 90k, still less than what you put down, FYI.) The various stat bonuses, 56k for the +2, +4, +6. Add in 64K for the +8, not using EPIC pricing. (surprisingly, what your result was.) 120k total. DR10/evil (5/magic is a +3 bonus, Double is +6 = 36k) roughly the same value. gem of seeing = 75k, to have it permanently cast upon you is 1k for permanancy + 1.2k for true seeing (paying 2k exp yourself, or just paying an extra 10k for the caster to foot the exp himself, from a 20th lvl caster.) 2.2k for the easy way. +5 weapon, 50k. Total... 387,700 gold. You were only off by about... 342,300 gold, only off by a little bit. :rolleyes: Now, the things you missed... Sustenance, as the ring, 2.5k +3 deflection bonus to AC, 28k Amulet of natural armor +2, 8k Ring of mind shielding 8k Necklace of adaptation, 9k (replicates improved sustenance.) Freedom of movement, as the ring, 40k. Total of 95,500. Coming to a grand total of... 483,200. The full cost, is 246,800 less than your three quarters finished version. Playing a regular fighter, you can replicate VoP without spending a single feat, have 277k in your pocket, and suffer none of the restrictions. With YOUR feat... well... It's kind of obvious what the problem is. Just to spell it out for you, you can play a fighter/fighter gestalt, with all the joy of VoP and none of the downsides. Period. All it costs? A single feat. Problems? Yeah, we got those. Do we ever. :rolleyes:
Scion of Coldshard 12-01-07, 02:42 AM	VoP replication you say? Let's count, shall we? Mithral breastplate +5 = 29.5k gold Mithral breastplate is so incredibly different from what the bonus actually does it is silly. At least the item I used comes close. PARTIAL ring of regeneration. (no restoring lost limbs) I'd give that 60K What effects in the game cut off limbs without killing the character and without the character being helpless? Energy Resist +15 all elements ( You priced wrongly, as a ring of energy resist 20 is 28k, so the best average price for +15 would be 20k) I based it off of the armor enhancement cost since those arent multiplied with multiple bonuses on the same item. A character only has so many slots to use after all. At some point you are going to have to start adding in extra costs from those if you want a fair comparison. DR10/evil (5/magic is a +3 bonus, Double is +6 = 36k) roughly the same value. DR/magic is very not useful, the DR/evil is much, much more powerful. I based my price off of a continuous stoneskin effect. gem of seeing = 75k Yep, but it only works for 30 minutes a day. Doubling the price to make it work all of the time without activation doesnt seem out of the question. +5 weapon, 50k. Which is what I said. Although it is actually more since it is also considered good, plus it can work on multiple weapons at once for two weapon fighting or multiple natural weapons. Now, the things you missed... At some point you are going to have to add in multipliers for the slot overlaps. If you want to get really picky then we can go back and apply epic pricing to the stat boosting which automatically puts it up into the incredible sums of money range.
Thugg 12-01-07, 03:07 AM	Mithral breastplate +5 is superior to bracers of AC for two reasons. One, it doesn't use up the arms slot ( because armor and bracers of AC don't stack. ) and two, it's a third of the price. But hey, if you want to let your armor slot go to waste... As for the ring slot overlap. Fine, ring of elemental resistance, universal 20, 120k. Better than VoP, one slot. Not even going to bother with the other issues, as it's not likely you'll listen to them either. EDIT - There is no extra cost for adding new powers onto existing items. Just the base costs for the powers themselves. (Refer to the MIC.) Glad to see this is more important to you than the whole deal with the fighter/fighter gestalt thing. :rolleyes: Quit beating around the bush on technicalities and comment on the main points everyone has been telling you.......... BROKEN.
DiceGolem 12-01-07, 11:39 AM	Ok, let me take a crack at it. Prereqs: At least 1 stat 16+ I understand that you're looking for someone a cut above the rest, and a high ability score is a good indicator, but I don't think that it's a viable prerequisite. Any race with a +2 to any stat can get a 16 for a far less expenditure of effort and points than, say, a human or half-elf. IMO, having a 16 in one stat of your choice says nothing about your self-reliance, because the rest of your stats and your overall effectiveness isn't called into question. Being able to live and thrive when you're completely isolated, in my opinion, epitomizes self reliance. I would change the prerequisite to Self-Sufficient (the feat). Sure, it's not the best feat in existence, but it really exemplifies the theme of being able to rely only upon yourself. Plus, unless you're a dedicated human (or play with flaws), you can avoid calling this feat into question at 1st level when starting gold is arbitrarily variable based on class. ...you take half of the gp allotted for your level and spend it on virtual items. While I agree with the rest of the posters that this isn't, of course, the best way to word it, using the wealth-by-level guidelines is probably better than nothing. I would add a table, detailing exactly how much gold you have at each level for the use of this feat, so you won't have to cross reference the DMG every time, but otherwise this is solid. This gives you the benefits of those items and the slots that they use are considered filled. Items which require a certain amount of time equipped before they will function properly must be chosen for the requisite amount of time in a row in order to function properly. I thought, at first, that you implied you can only gain the benefits of slotted magic items, which I have no problem with. The real problem comes about with unslotted items... specifically any single-use, charged, or strange item. First and foremost, are you allowing characters to virtually use single-use items? An item that does cloudkill 1/day (16,200 gp) is priced a lot differently than an item that does cloudkill once (2,250 gp), and it would probably go beyond the power of the feat to allow for a lot of single-use items. At worst, you could take a few days off from adventuring and virtually read each of the stat boosting books, gaining up to a +5 permanent inherent bonus from your temporary effect. Or even worse, giving your wizard virtual Golem Manuals for (nearly) free golem minions. Secondly, are you allowing wands/staves (anything with a number of charges that does not replenish)? If so, do you allow them to be virtually created with less than 50 charges? I can see this getting pretty ridiculous with Wizards virtually using wands of Mnemonic Enhancer, or Rogues (UMD) virtually using wands of Charm Monster or Phantasmal Killer! A 4th level spell in a wand is 10,500 gp, sure, but that's only 210 gp per charge. The scroll equivalent comes out to be 700 gp! Lastly, what are you going to do about all the strange and exotic magic items? A Bag of Holding or a Glove of Storing, for example? What happens to all the stuff in your extradimensional spaces if you miss your morning ritual? What happens to the Pit Fiend you just imprisoned in your virtual Iron Flask 24 hours later? Is your Sovereign Glue still sticky? What's against you virtually using an intelligent item to make use of it's skills or spell-like abilities? For example, you could virtually use an Intelligent Gray Bag of Tricks (900 gp) that can speak (+4k), detect magic at will (+3.6k), and has 10 ranks in Spellcraft (+5k). For the low price of 13,500 gp, you've got another party member that is constantly detecting and probably correctly identifying all magic near the party. You also gain 1 bonus feat for each even level you have +1 for first level. You must meet the normal requirements for these feats and they should fit within the theme of how the character is self reliant either directly or by building towards a feat that does. You really do need to set out a list of feats that the bonus feats can be conceivably applied to. Even VoP has a short list of feats that you usually end up getting little benefit out of. You're suggesting that any feat can be taken (out of the 2700 or so feats available) as long as the player can argue that it shows his characters self reliance. Special: You may only use simple, basic equipment. Nothing you have on your person may cost more than 10gp and you cannot exceed 10gp*character level^2 in total items owned. If you use an item that exceeds the above limit or a magical item of any sort you lose the benefit of this feat for 1 day per 1kgp value of the item (min 1 day). The wealth limit seems pretty restricting, and I suggest you get rid of it entirely. Self reliant ranged combat is nigh impossible (unless you want to use a sling and make sure not to buy too much ammo). Most, if not all, material components and foci that are worth more than 1 gp are generally worth more than 10 gp, and cannot be used (no more Raise Dead for clerics). VoP at least allowed you to beg components from your allies and temporarily hold items for others. I suggest changing the wording to something like: "Special: You may only use basic equipment. You can only use simple weapons, light armor, and light shields. You can also use miscellaneous adventuring equipment (rope, torches, flasks of acid, etc) as long as each item is worth less than or equal to 10 gp. No item you use can be of masterwork quality, or made of a superior material (mithral, adamantine, cold iron, etc). The virtual items granted by this feat do not count for the purposes of this restriction. "Should you use a prohibited item, you lose the benefit of this feat for 1 day per 1,000 gp the item is worth (minimum 1 day). Note, you need to actually use the item; it is acceptable to carry expensive objects and treasure as long as the items in question are not used. For example, picking up a vorpal sword is fine, but picking up a luckstone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#stoneofGoodLuckLucksto ne) is not. Any permanent bonuses you have (such as inherent bonuses from wishes) reduce the value you may spend each day by half their normal value. Isn't 25,000 XP enough for the +5 bonus? Do permanent spells count? What about permanent racial abilities? PS. Mithral breastplate doesn't work against incorporeal touch attacks.
beepaladin 12-01-07, 12:31 PM	You know, everyone else has already gotten into what the feat does, I'll leave that to them. And Vow of Poverty is arguably an overpowered feat taken on face value, but it does have a lot of restrictions that seem to be not present in your variant. My big comment has more to do with the prereq. 1 stat over 16 is a lot less of a requirement than taking another (arguably semi-useless) feat. It might be best, making an analog, if you make some other vow feat that could function as a prereq.
Scion of Coldshard 12-01-07, 01:20 PM	Mithral breastplate +5 is superior to bracers of AC for two reasons. One, it doesn't use up the arms slot ( because armor and bracers of AC don't stack. ) and two, it's a third of the price. A mithral breastplate counts as light armor instead of not counting as wearing armor, has a +5 max dex instead of no max dex, has a -1 armor check penalty instead of no armor check penalty, has a 15% arcane spell failure instead of no arcane spell failure, weighs 15lbs instead of 0 lbs, and can be destroyed/dispelled vs cannot be. Those are some pretty big differences there. The differences between bracers of armor and the bonus from the feat are: Weighs 1lb vs no weight, protects against incorporeal touch attacks vs not, doesnt protect against brilliant energy vs does, and can be targetted vs cannot be. I would say that the bracers of armor are a much closer approximation. I also say that bracers of armor are overpriced, but for a comparison such as the one being done here using the book price is the way to go. As for the ring slot overlap. Fine, ring of elemental resistance, universal 20, 120k. Better than VoP, one slot. Where is this item from? There is no extra cost for adding new powers onto existing items. Just the base costs for the powers themselves. (Refer to the MIC.) This is only true for a very specific list of abilities. Glad to see this is more important to you than the whole deal with the fighter/fighter gestalt thing. I am not sure how this is relevant. There are tradeoffs between each after all and did anyone even bring up a fighter/fighter gestalt? Quit beating around the bush on technicalities and comment on the main points everyone has been telling you I've been addressing points as they come in. Which points have I been ignoring in your opinion?
Scion of Coldshard 12-01-07, 01:47 PM	Ok, let me take a crack at it. Ok ;) I understand that you're looking for someone a cut above the rest, and a high ability score is a good indicator, but I don't think that it's a viable prerequisite. Any race with a +2 to any stat can get a 16 for a far less expenditure of effort and points than, say, a human or half-elf. IMO, having a 16 in one stat of your choice says nothing about your self-reliance, because the rest of your stats and your overall effectiveness isn't called into question. It is only of the only real indicators of being above average in the game other than roleplaying restrictions though. A human or half-elf will have a harder time than some other races, that is true. I could make the prereq be 16+ before racial modifications, that should fix up the problem of some races having an easier time than others. Being able to live and thrive when you're completely isolated, in my opinion, epitomizes self reliance. Being able to hold ones own in other situations dont represent self-reliance? To me it just means that a person calls upon themself to overcome whatever they come across rather than relying solely on outside support. In the case of d&d that would mean relying on as little magical gear as possible and instead focusing on personal abilities. This would be true whether the person was out in the middle of the wilderness all alone or in the middle of a city with a million other people. Plus, unless you're a dedicated human (or play with flaws), you can avoid calling this feat into question at 1st level when starting gold is arbitrarily variable based on class. The variable gold at the start is a pretty bad thing in my opinion, but then in my experience most groups just give the average result anyway. I am not sure that there are any magic items that could be really gotten at that point anyway.. Plus, I would really like anyone who wants to get it at first to be able to. Only allowing humans to do so seems pretty bad to me. While I agree with the rest of the posters that this isn't, of course, the best way to word it, using the wealth-by-level guidelines is probably better than nothing. I would add a table, detailing exactly how much gold you have at each level for the use of this feat, so you won't have to cross reference the DMG every time, but otherwise this is solid. I can do that, although putting it up on the board I think is a no-no based on the table not being in the SRD. I thought, at first, that you implied you can only gain the benefits of slotted magic items, which I have no problem with. The real problem comes about with unslotted items... specifically any single-use, charged, or strange item. I am torn on this issue really. In one sense it simply shouldnt matter, wealth by level has a certain number and what you fill it with more or less shouldnt matter. This means that if a character spends their money on items x, y, and z they should be roughly equivalent to a character who spent their money on items a, b, and c assuming a similar level of optimization instead of obviously poor choices. This means that it shouldnt matter what is picked, it should be basically balanced anyway. On the other hand though there are many items that it would seem kindof silly to allow to me.. having a 'wand' with a personal only buff is probably just fine, but shooting off a fireball doesnt really fit. I could limit it to personal only effects though with a physical representation needed of the item as a focus for the ability. That should cut back on a lot of effects that are likely not appropriate while still allowing interesting choices. How does that sound to you? At worst, you could take a few days off from adventuring and virtually read each of the stat boosting books, gaining up to a +5 permanent inherent bonus from your temporary effect. I actually wouldnt have a problem with that really.. I already call it out specifically in the text to show that the permanent bonus counts against wealth permanently ;) Or even worse, giving your wizard virtual Golem Manuals for (nearly) free golem minions. Now this would be a problem. The limiter of 'self only' would get around it though. If so, do you allow them to be virtually created with less than 50 charges? As far as I know the rules dont allow for items to be made with less than their full charges so having less than the full amount shouldnt come up. Which also means that for a lot of wands it is probably more cost efficient to get a normal wonderous which has a similar effect.. after all, in a given day 50 charges of a personal buff are unlikely to be used ;) Lastly, what are you going to do about all the strange and exotic magic items? A Bag of Holding or a Glove of Storing, for example? A good question! I'd probably just ignore these really.. call it something like the mystical "Sword Space" in some styles and how the heros in others can seemingly always carry just enough without having to worry about inconvenient things like weight.. ;) What happens to the Pit Fiend you just imprisoned in your virtual Iron Flask 24 hours later? Looks like it'd no longer be imprisoned ;) Is your Sovereign Glue still sticky? Likely not ;) What's against you virtually using an intelligent item to make use of it's skills or spell-like abilities? Hmm.. I'll have to think over the intelligent item issue.. probably just have to dissallow intelligent items straight out.. which sucks because it could be incredible fun to have a recurring intelligent item, sortof a second personality of the character.. The wealth limit seems pretty restricting, and I suggest you get rid of it entirely. Self reliant ranged combat is nigh impossible (unless you want to use a sling and make sure not to buy too much ammo). Most, if not all, material components and foci that are worth more than 1 gp are generally worth more than 10 gp, and cannot be used (no more Raise Dead for clerics). VoP at least allowed you to beg components from your allies and temporarily hold items for others. I suggest changing the wording to something like: "Special: You may only use basic equipment. You can only use simple weapons, light armor, and light shields. You can also use miscellaneous adventuring equipment (rope, torches, flasks of acid, etc) as long as each item is worth less than or equal to 10 gp. No item you use can be of masterwork quality, or made of a superior material (mithral, adamantine, cold iron, etc). The virtual items granted by this feat do not count for the purposes of this restriction. "Should you use a prohibited item, you lose the benefit of this feat for 1 day per 1,000 gp the item is worth (minimum 1 day). Note, you need to actually use the item; it is acceptable to carry expensive objects and treasure as long as the items in question are not used. For example, picking up a vorpal sword is fine, but picking up a luckstone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#stoneofGoodLuckLucksto ne) is not. Pretty good wording there. I will think it over ;) Isn't 25,000 XP enough for the +5 bonus? Do permanent spells count? What about permanent racial abilities? 25,000 exp wont necessarily be paid by the character ;) Permanent spells do count, permanent racial abilities have 0 cost as far as I know.. so whether they count or not isnt really important. PS. Mithral breastplate doesn't work against incorporeal touch attacks. While true I am not sure why it is important. A post from mine two down from yours does go into this in more detail in response to Thugg in case that helps.
wonlee76 12-01-07, 02:02 PM	Sure, it can certainly use some shoring up of the wording. It takes a higher amount of resources to get a 16 in a stat. Typically this represents in d&d a character who is a cut above the rest. In a 25 - 28 point buy game that represents more than a third of there stat choice pool. I was thinking about having it be at least 3 stats of 14 or higher, but that pretty well says npc's need not apply, and that isnt really what I was going for. I understand the concept but I dislike the pre-req because not everyone plays 25-28 point buy. And as someone pointed out, when you toss in races that do get +2 bonuses to a stat, the 16 Stat pre-req is pretty damn weak for the benefits of this feat. If a person cannot make the assumption that people are going to be using a normal game how can any feats/items/anything really be made? At some point we have to make assumptions.. assuming that the game will be close to the wealth by level guidelines seems like a pretty reasonable assumption to me. If a game is too far above or below the norm then the dm would be free to likewise change how much this feat granted. Somone already mentioned it, put the actual pricing in the feat description then. Why leave a feat to "DM interpretation" when he is running a game that is over or under the wealth guidelines. Look at Ancestral Relic as an example of a feat that does put a 'cap" at each level for guidance. Why do you feel that it is too powerful? Generally a given character has a certain set of equipment that is best for them anyway.. a character without this feat could have two complete sets of equipment to trade back and forth between for the same amount of gp value. At the point we are talking about 1 set of easy to change vs 2 sets of more permanent I would say that the guy with only 1 set is coming out behind personally. Generally you're right but there's always "specialized" equipment for certain types of encounters or adventures. The flexibility allows the PC to meet those specialized situations. Sure, most PCs will like to have their magical armor and weapons but the option to also have a water breathing and freedom of movement item for an underwater adventure or a holy item for your demon hunting adventure is just too strong. Basically, the swiss army knife effect of the feat is bothersome. Sure, you'll use a certain set of magical items consistently but then depending on circumstances and preparation, you get to "fix" or "change" your items to meet the future challenges proves to be very formidable. I've no problem with ioun stones or a luckstone being chosen. But as written the feat doesnt really allow for charged items like scrolls and such.. not that it should matter much given how the wealth by level guidelines work though.. hmm.. maybe a physical representation for those types of items would be a good thing though.. it would allow the use of that type of item plus give a focus for an opponent to attack should they want to disrupt its use. That does bear some thinking over.. You say it doesn't "really allow for charged items like scrolls and such" but I don't necessarily read it that way since there is already an internal inconsistency in the feat when you describe "slotted" items and what happens when a PC chooses to get an inherent bonus to a stat (a non-slotted item). Spell it out. If the fighter had to give up half of his wealth to be a fighter I might agree with it being a problem.. but as it is? Take the example of the barbarian -> fighter/barbarian gestalt that was given earlier. If we assume that all that is gained vs the barbarian are the bonus feats would you make this trade if the dm told you that you would also be at half of your gold for each level? Oh, and you have to spend a feat to do it ;) Look at it a different way... In order to get those bonus feats from fighter, you HAVE to take levels of fighter. You can't take levels of barbarian, some cool prestige class or whatever. This feat gives the FULL class feature of a fighter, without the need to take fighter levels. This is analagous to a feat giving full spellcasting progression or a feat that instead of bonus feats gives all of the class features of a barbarian over 20 levels. I dont understand.. it already says you lose the benefits of the feat.. saying that the feats are lost is just repeating what it already says.. is it not clear from the feat that the bonus feats are a bonus given from the feat? :confused: The way I read it was you lost the benefits of getting those quasi-magical items. Maybe I was just tired when I read it. I suppose that depends on how you count it.. +10 armor bonus = 100,000 if we price it like bracers of armor Ring of regeneration = 90,000 15 energy resist to acid, cold, electricity, fire, sonic = ~26,000 each = 130,000 +8/+6/+4/+2 enhancements (not assuming epic pricing) = 120,000 10/evil DR = I dont know, lots and lots? Likely a minimum of around 70,000 True Seeing continuously = 150,000 minimum if we go by the gem of seeing At least one +5 weapon = 50,000 = 730,000 already.. and I wasnt done with all of the bonuses yet ;) The difference between your feat and VoP. VoP's benefits are "stuck". In other words, you get loads of snazzy abilities and boosts but those bonuses/benefits may not necessarily be beneficial for your PC. For example, when was the last time a PC actually bought a Ring of Regeneration. In my experience in 3rd edition, no one ever bought it because the benefits weren't worth the gold. Your feat on the other hand gives "flexible" magical item like benefits. Basically more hand tailoring what your PC gets to fit their needs. That's what makes it "better" than VoP. Not the actual value of the magical benefits from VoP vs. this feat but the flexibility to get magical benefits that fits your PC "best". Which is very, very poor design. Getting away from design mistakes is a Good Thing. Let me know what you think about these points ;) Its poorer design to take a feat that has harsh restrictions and "big" benefits and remove the aspects you don't like (permanent loss of feat and benefits) for the benefits you do like (the "power" aspect of VoP). The reason why VoP gives those benefits is because of the harsh restrictions. Your feat just got rid of the harsh restrictions, a modest reduction in the "magical" benefits department, a huge boost in the bonus feat department and no "real" pre-requisite to worry about. Therefore, your Feat is not balanced. If the feat can't even be balanced with VoP you know you got problems. :P
Scion of Coldshard 12-01-07, 02:22 PM	I understand the concept but I dislike the pre-req because not everyone plays 25-28 point buy. And as someone pointed out, when you toss in races that do get +2 bonuses to a stat, the 16 Stat pre-req is pretty damn weak for the benefits of this feat. The prereq is more of a token than anything else. But I can not control how many points people make their characters with and I dont think I'd really need to since pc's are usually a 'cut above the rest' anyway ;) Pc's being able to get it fairly easily isnt really a problem per se. Generally you're right but there's always "specialized" equipment for certain types of encounters or adventures. The flexibility allows the PC to meet those specialized situations Sure, but since a normal character could have one complete set of gear of equivalent value to a characters gear who has this feat plus have the same amount of value in any other sort of gear they want... Do you feel that being able to have twice as much gear as the next guy does not mitigate the choice aspect? Basically, the swiss army knife effect of the feat is bothersome. The swiss army knife effect is bothersome for a feat designed to make characters be self-reliant instead of on outside gear? We may have different goals here ;) This feat gives the FULL class feature of a fighter, without the need to take fighter levels. Not really true, the fighter also gets full BAB, d10 hd, a bunch of free virtual feats, and more things besides. Plus, this feat eats up half of a characters gear. If you were given the choice for your character to have full gear and no bonus feats, half gear with extra fighter-like bonus feat progression, or no gear and with an extra double fighter-like bonus feat progression which would you choose and why? This is analagous to a feat giving full spellcasting progression or a feat that instead of bonus feats gives all of the class features of a barbarian over 20 levels. If a character spends half of their wealth for their given level on having items which granted various spellcasting abilities then in a way they could be said to be emulating something similar to that I suppose. The way I read it was you lost the benefits of getting those quasi-magical items. Maybe I was just tired when I read it. The bonus feats are part of the bonus from this feat.. if you lose the bonuses of this feat then you lose the virtual items and the bonus feats. So, no worries there ;) The difference between your feat and VoP. VoP's benefits are "stuck". Yeah, which is bad design. It is an artificial limiter that makes it so that even if a character wanted to use it they might not really be able to and still have the amount of power a character of level X is assumed to have. The vow of poverty winds up giving gear that is way over how much a normal character could get (assuming that epic pricings are used, or just marginally over if you dont) but is fixed, in my adaptation a character gets much less gear than a normal character would get but as a freedom of choice added so that they can shift to different circumstances without having to rely on outside assistance ;)
Scion of Coldshard 12-01-07, 03:40 PM	I updated the first post with many peoples suggestions.. if I missed any let me know. I kept the stat prereq but added another on there along with mentioning that it is before racial bonuses (but not penalties). Hopefully that will make it a better fit. Hopefully the new text shores up a lot of the problem areas ;) Edit: put up a wealth by level chart as well with normal and new values
DiceGolem 12-01-07, 04:09 PM	Question: Can you do your 1 hour ritual more than 1/day? I actually think it's right out of the DMG that allows you to buy charged items at less than maximum charges, but you can only craft an item that's full of charges. Is choosing your virtual items crafting (must be max charges) or akin to buying (can be any)? Sure, but since a normal character could have one complete set of gear of equivalent value to a characters gear who has this feat plus have the same amount of value in any other sort of gear they want... Do you feel that being able to have twice as much gear as the next guy does not mitigate the choice aspect? Imagine character creation. You're creating a character at 12th level and you have lots of gold to spend. You've got all the gold needed to optimize a little. Now, that same character that has played session after session from level 1 probably doesn't have the same stuff, even though their wealth may be the same. Perhaps he chose to sell some of the more useless items, and perhaps he is still wearing a ring of protection +1 because he's spent all his wealth on diamonds to raise his fellows. Their initial wealth may be the same, but a floating pool of "I can get this because I need it" is worth quite a bit. I think in the end you've got the right idea for the limiters of this feat, because they aren't going to be wearing any other magic items. Giving up your magic items for a 1/2 wealth virtual set is a pretty big jump, but it does allow for an every-day specialization. When it all comes down to it, it's a question of All-Day-Bonuses vs. Single-Use. If you want the all day, every day, benefit of magic items, this isn't the feat for you. Even if you get a lot of bonus feats, the wealth limiter will really hamper your style. But, if you would rather be a cannon of magical effects, then this would be right up your ally. Keep up the good work! This is shaping up to be a pretty nifty feat. :D
Scion of Coldshard 12-01-07, 04:19 PM	Question: Can you do your 1 hour ritual more than 1/day? Sure, but you wont gain anything extra from doing it more than once mechanically ;) If people feel that it is not sufficiently clear in the current feats text I will add in a special line to make sure it is clear. Is this the case? I actually think it's right out of the DMG that allows you to buy charged items at less than maximum charges, but you can only craft an item that's full of charges. Is choosing your virtual items crafting (must be max charges) or akin to buying (can be any)? Similar to crafting in a way, as the character is kindof crafting them out of himself. But it would be good for me to add this in that each item needs to be fully charged. The only exception I can think of off hand are items that grant wishes.. the luck blade I would like to be able to have the character purchase empty. I think that the inability to use non-personal effects already limits actual wishes to being manageable though.. I hope.. any ideas about that? Imagine character creation. You're creating a character at 12th level and you have lots of gold to spend. You've got all the gold needed to optimize a little. Now, that same character that has played session after session from level 1 probably doesn't have the same stuff, even though their wealth may be the same. Perhaps he chose to sell some of the more useless items, and perhaps he is still wearing a ring of protection +1 because he's spent all his wealth on diamonds to raise his fellows. Their initial wealth may be the same, but a floating pool of "I can get this because I need it" is worth quite a bit. I think in the end you've got the right idea for the limiters of this feat, because they aren't going to be wearing any other magic items. Giving up your magic items for a 1/2 wealth virtual set is a pretty big jump, but it does allow for an every-day specialization. When it all comes down to it, it's a question of All-Day-Bonuses vs. Single-Use. If you want the all day, every day, benefit of magic items, this isn't the feat for you. Even if you get a lot of bonus feats, the wealth limiter will really hamper your style. But, if you would rather be a cannon of magical effects, then this would be right up your ally. Keep up the good work! This is shaping up to be a pretty nifty feat. :D Thanks! Let me know what you think about the questions I asked above, I appreciate your input ;)
DiceGolem 12-01-07, 04:28 PM	Sure, but you wont gain anything extra from doing it more than once mechanically ;) If people feel that it is not sufficiently clear in the current feats text I will add in a special line to make sure it is clear. Is this the case? The trick is, if you don't specifically say it, then they'll either ask you or assume the best (the best for their characters). Better safe than sorry? The only exception I can think of off hand are items that grant wishes.. the luck blade I would like to be able to have the character purchase empty. I think that the inability to use non-personal effects already limits actual wishes to being manageable though.. I hope.. any ideas about that? Well, it seems to be a pretty specific case. You could try a blanket statement for items with limited uses, but that still give a benefit once the uses are used. It's always a pleasure to help out. Thanks for valuing my input!
Scion of Coldshard 12-01-07, 04:37 PM	The trick is, if you don't specifically say it, then they'll either ask you or assume the best (the best for their characters). Better safe than sorry? I edited it into the first post ;) Well, it seems to be a pretty specific case. You could try a blanket statement for items with limited uses, but that still give a benefit once the uses are used. Probably true, and I might change it later, but for now I just said that they all must be fully charged with the only exception being the luck blade. If anyone can think of a better way to do it I'd like to hear it of course! It's always a pleasure to help out. Thanks for valuing my input! Always, even if I have a hard time showing it at times ;)
Scion of Coldshard 12-03-07, 01:51 PM	Any thoughts on the revised feat? ;)