Vow of Poverty and ECL [Archive] - Wizards Community

Vow of Poverty and ECL [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
XarGreyhawk
06-02-07, 11:06 AM Together with some friends, I recently began a new campaign in a homebrew world. The DM asked us to choose homebrew races of his, all of which come with a +2 level adjustment. According to how he uses the level adj., our first-level characters currently have an ECL of 2; as soon as we gain 3000 XP, we'll reach an ECL of 3 (but still remain 1st-level in our classes), and then from 6000 XP on we'll be progressing normally.
My character has taken the Vow of Poverty feat (from Book of Exalted Deeds), and neither the rules nor the errata specify whether this feat applies based on ECL or on the character level (without level adjustment), however. I can't remember whether such a question was already tackled in an official way (such as in Sage Advice) - anyone has any idea about how the feat would work in these circumstances?
Neutronium_Dragon
06-02-07, 11:11 AM Vow of Poverty is essentially a replacement for your normal wealth-by-level value, which is one of the things which is normally calculated by ECL (along with XP). As such, the character's ECL should be used for determining Vow of Poverty benefits.
Mastel
06-03-07, 06:03 PM You should not get a bonus for a level adjustement.

ECL determine that your are stronger & get get more money for this. Surely not more power from that.

Vow of poverty is not a replacement for wealth.

Volontary Poverty is CL dependant.
sirkently
06-03-07, 07:55 PM According to the Vow of Poverty feat, it only goes by class level so you wouldn't get any bonus for level adjustment. In your group, if you are the only one with it, you should just leave it at that. It certainly won't add to your ECL, which you are using in a strange way.

It appears that the DM is saying the races have a LA of 2, but then adjusting everything to make it an LA of 1. Why not just use an LA of 1 and forget about the ECL as it would be irrelevant.
XarGreyhawk
06-04-07, 03:59 AM Snooping around both the books and the WotC website, I found a couple of clarifications that apparently support two main points:

1) Vow of Poverty depends on character level, not class level: this is explicitly mentioned on page 29 of the BoED;

2) Vow of Poverty is intended to allow the player to create a character of comparable wealth to a normal character (Save My Game column, http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20060609a).

Neither mentions ECL, but strictly speaking, #1 would suggest that Vow of Poverty does indeed use effective character level as opposed to just the sum of the character's class levels. It also makes sense, since in a campaign where a character with LA takes the Vow, he might go on for one or two levels without increasing his character level, and without being able to benefit from the equipment the other characters would find.

The way my DM is planning to deal with the +2 LA our characters share is that at the beginning of the campaign, we have +1 LA and one class level; when we earn 2000 additional XP (thus reaching a total of 3000 XP) we'll gain another class level; then, after 3000 additional XP, we'll get another +1 LA; and afterwards, we'll just increase by level.
goawayugh
06-04-07, 12:09 PM First of all, your DM is working this LA thing way too weird for my tastes.

Character level refers to your HD. ECL = Effective Character Level. If ECL and Character Level were the same thing, then there would be no need for the E in front of the CL.

You should not gain VoP goodies for your LA.
sirkently
06-04-07, 08:11 PM 1) Vow of Poverty depends on character level, not class level: this is explicitly mentioned on page 29 of the BoED

True but your Character Level is the sum of all your class levels. (Pg. 59, PHB). You don't gain levels from LA. You can't for example have 2 levels of ogre.

Neither mentions ECL, but strictly speaking, #1 would suggest that Vow of Poverty does indeed use effective character level as opposed to just the sum of the character's class levels.

ECL is used for very little, mainly just to tell how powerful it is to add something to a campaign as a cohort. Never used for feats etc.

in a campaign where a character with LA takes the Vow, he might go on for one or two levels without increasing his character level, and without being able to benefit from the equipment the other characters would find.

Exactly, this is the price you are meant to pay for taking the LA. In a group with one PC with a level adjustment, the lower wealth and ability in his class is what compensates for the added bonus that comes with the race he is playing.

First of all, your DM is working this LA thing way too weird for my tastes

Me too, and getting VoP bonuses for your ECL would break it even more.
strenoth
06-04-07, 09:20 PM Um... No, if you take LA, you DO get the equipment. ECL calculates Wealth as well as XP

VoP replaces wealth.

If ECL Calculates appropriate Wealth, and VoP Replaces Wealth with a set of abilities, then ECL should be used to calculate VoP abilities.
sirkently
06-04-07, 09:36 PM Um... No, if you take LA, you DO get the equipment. ECL calculates Wealth as well as XP

Can you say where you found this, I can't find it in the DMG.
runestar
06-04-07, 10:02 PM I concur - VOP, for all its fluff, is essentially an alternate means of accessing magic gear, and as such, should be subject to the same rules governing wealth accumulation.:)

Thus, I would allow its benefits to be based off ECL.
On a side note, this also means that for npcs, I would have its effects based off cr, rather than total HD. (shudders at the thought of a dragon taking the VOP feat...:D )
risner
06-05-07, 01:39 AM neither the rules nor the errata specify whether this feat applies based on ECL or on the character level (without level adjustment)

If it says character level, then it means without the level adjust. Only if it says Effective Character Level would it bring into focus the ECL.
strenoth
06-05-07, 01:49 AM Can you say where you found this, I can't find it in the DMG.

I use the SRD, especially as there's a search able version of it, but it should be in the corresponding section of the DMG or MM.

Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level

To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels.

Use ECL instead of character level to determine how many experience points a monster character needs to reach its next level. Also use ECL to determine starting wealth for a monster character.

as found here:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm
pupilofyah
06-19-07, 10:45 AM in the savage species book you DO get lvls for LA. hit points and saves dont change but you gain a monster lvl. more over this seems to be what the DM is doing albiet ignoring that all monster lvls must be done before taking class lvls(which is ok to do).

so VoP would work on that priciple. ECL

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
XarGreyhawk 06-02-07, 11:06 AM	Together with some friends, I recently began a new campaign in a homebrew world. The DM asked us to choose homebrew races of his, all of which come with a +2 level adjustment. According to how he uses the level adj., our first-level characters currently have an ECL of 2; as soon as we gain 3000 XP, we'll reach an ECL of 3 (but still remain 1st-level in our classes), and then from 6000 XP on we'll be progressing normally. My character has taken the Vow of Poverty feat (from Book of Exalted Deeds), and neither the rules nor the errata specify whether this feat applies based on ECL or on the character level (without level adjustment), however. I can't remember whether such a question was already tackled in an official way (such as in Sage Advice) - anyone has any idea about how the feat would work in these circumstances?
Neutronium_Dragon 06-02-07, 11:11 AM	Vow of Poverty is essentially a replacement for your normal wealth-by-level value, which is one of the things which is normally calculated by ECL (along with XP). As such, the character's ECL should be used for determining Vow of Poverty benefits.
Mastel 06-03-07, 06:03 PM	You should not get a bonus for a level adjustement. ECL determine that your are stronger & get get more money for this. Surely not more power from that. Vow of poverty is not a replacement for wealth. Volontary Poverty is CL dependant.
sirkently 06-03-07, 07:55 PM	According to the Vow of Poverty feat, it only goes by class level so you wouldn't get any bonus for level adjustment. In your group, if you are the only one with it, you should just leave it at that. It certainly won't add to your ECL, which you are using in a strange way. It appears that the DM is saying the races have a LA of 2, but then adjusting everything to make it an LA of 1. Why not just use an LA of 1 and forget about the ECL as it would be irrelevant.
XarGreyhawk 06-04-07, 03:59 AM	Snooping around both the books and the WotC website, I found a couple of clarifications that apparently support two main points: 1) Vow of Poverty depends on character level, not class level: this is explicitly mentioned on page 29 of the BoED; 2) Vow of Poverty is intended to allow the player to create a character of comparable wealth to a normal character (Save My Game column, http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20060609a). Neither mentions ECL, but strictly speaking, #1 would suggest that Vow of Poverty does indeed use effective character level as opposed to just the sum of the character's class levels. It also makes sense, since in a campaign where a character with LA takes the Vow, he might go on for one or two levels without increasing his character level, and without being able to benefit from the equipment the other characters would find. The way my DM is planning to deal with the +2 LA our characters share is that at the beginning of the campaign, we have +1 LA and one class level; when we earn 2000 additional XP (thus reaching a total of 3000 XP) we'll gain another class level; then, after 3000 additional XP, we'll get another +1 LA; and afterwards, we'll just increase by level.
goawayugh 06-04-07, 12:09 PM	First of all, your DM is working this LA thing way too weird for my tastes. Character level refers to your HD. ECL = Effective Character Level. If ECL and Character Level were the same thing, then there would be no need for the E in front of the CL. You should not gain VoP goodies for your LA.
sirkently 06-04-07, 08:11 PM	1) Vow of Poverty depends on character level, not class level: this is explicitly mentioned on page 29 of the BoED True but your Character Level is the sum of all your class levels. (Pg. 59, PHB). You don't gain levels from LA. You can't for example have 2 levels of ogre. Neither mentions ECL, but strictly speaking, #1 would suggest that Vow of Poverty does indeed use effective character level as opposed to just the sum of the character's class levels. ECL is used for very little, mainly just to tell how powerful it is to add something to a campaign as a cohort. Never used for feats etc. in a campaign where a character with LA takes the Vow, he might go on for one or two levels without increasing his character level, and without being able to benefit from the equipment the other characters would find. Exactly, this is the price you are meant to pay for taking the LA. In a group with one PC with a level adjustment, the lower wealth and ability in his class is what compensates for the added bonus that comes with the race he is playing. First of all, your DM is working this LA thing way too weird for my tastes Me too, and getting VoP bonuses for your ECL would break it even more.
strenoth 06-04-07, 09:20 PM	Um... No, if you take LA, you DO get the equipment. ECL calculates Wealth as well as XP VoP replaces wealth. If ECL Calculates appropriate Wealth, and VoP Replaces Wealth with a set of abilities, then ECL should be used to calculate VoP abilities.
sirkently 06-04-07, 09:36 PM	Um... No, if you take LA, you DO get the equipment. ECL calculates Wealth as well as XP Can you say where you found this, I can't find it in the DMG.
runestar 06-04-07, 10:02 PM	I concur - VOP, for all its fluff, is essentially an alternate means of accessing magic gear, and as such, should be subject to the same rules governing wealth accumulation.:) Thus, I would allow its benefits to be based off ECL. On a side note, this also means that for npcs, I would have its effects based off cr, rather than total HD. (shudders at the thought of a dragon taking the VOP feat...:D )
risner 06-05-07, 01:39 AM	neither the rules nor the errata specify whether this feat applies based on ECL or on the character level (without level adjustment) If it says character level, then it means without the level adjust. Only if it says Effective Character Level would it bring into focus the ECL.
strenoth 06-05-07, 01:49 AM	Can you say where you found this, I can't find it in the DMG. I use the SRD, especially as there's a search able version of it, but it should be in the corresponding section of the DMG or MM. Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels. Use ECL instead of character level to determine how many experience points a monster character needs to reach its next level. Also use ECL to determine starting wealth for a monster character. as found here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm
pupilofyah 06-19-07, 10:45 AM	in the savage species book you DO get lvls for LA. hit points and saves dont change but you gain a monster lvl. more over this seems to be what the DM is doing albiet ignoring that all monster lvls must be done before taking class lvls(which is ok to do). so VoP would work on that priciple. ECL