Vow of Poverty and Vow of Peace Q's [Archive] - Wizards Community

Vow of Poverty and Vow of Peace Q's [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
LittleCarp04
02-27-07, 09:43 PM Hey everyone, I had a few questions of Vow of Poverty and Vow of Peace. If a party member wants me to read the Tome to add a stat am I allowed to read it? Or would he choose to keep it since it is his share of the treasure? Also on the poverty side, If i take Craft (Tailoring) could I make a nicer set of clothes then homespun shirt and pants if i get all the materials for free or in exchange for work, the idea being that if i dress nicer I can get a better job to help by donating more.

Onto Vow of Peace, if i use Diplomacy to have a enemy help protect me, and he kills one of his enemies is that breaking my vow since i had him help protect us? Thanks a ton for any help!
KurenaiYami
02-27-07, 11:15 PM Hey everyone, I had a few questions of Vow of Poverty and Vow of Peace. If a party member wants me to read the Tome to add a stat am I allowed to read it? Or would he choose to keep it since it is his share of the treasure?
I see nothing wrong with this as long as he doesn't actually own the book. It would sort of be like lending a potion. Assuming you're talking about the stat increasing tomes, otherwise I have no idea what you're talking about.

Also on the poverty side, If i take Craft (Tailoring) could I make a nicer set of clothes then homespun shirt and pants if i get all the materials for free or in exchange for work, the idea being that if i dress nicer I can get a better job to help by donating more.
Depends on your DM's interpretation of "simple clothes." I'd personally say know due to my interpretation of RAI.

Onto Vow of Peace, if i use Diplomacy to have a enemy help protect me, and he kills one of his enemies is that breaking my vow since i had him help protect us? Thanks a ton for any help!

The feat only says that you cannot harm them. If they harm themselves of put themselves in harm's way, that's there decision. Though I've never seen a person use Diplomacy to get an "enemy" to the point of friendliness that they would actually fight to protect you.
Steevo
02-27-07, 11:20 PM Hey everyone, I had a few questions of Vow of Poverty and Vow of Peace. If a party member wants me to read the Tome to add a stat am I allowed to read it? Or would he choose to keep it since it is his share of the treasure?

I'm unfamiliar with the exact wording of Vow of Poverty, but I would be incline to say "no." This is benefiting from treasure, which IIRC is against the vow.

Also on the poverty side, If i take Craft (Tailoring) could I make a nicer set of clothes then homespun shirt and pants if i get all the materials for free or in exchange for work, the idea being that if i dress nicer I can get a better job to help by donating more.

Again, I would say "no." By that logic, you ought to be able to spend the 1,000's of gold you pull in as your share of party loot to build your own orphanage and thereby "help more people." But you're still building up material possessions which is kind of contrary to the point of the vow.

That said, if there was a community in dire need of clothing, I would permit this character to sew new clothes for donation to the community.

Onto Vow of Peace, if i use Diplomacy to have a enemy help protect me, and he kills one of his enemies is that breaking my vow since i had him help protect us? Thanks a ton for any help!

Again, I'm not familiar with the exact wording of the vow, but I would be inclined to think this is NOT a breach of your vow. Although I suppose that depends on the situation, too. If the situation is obviously about to get violent, it's probably against the spirit of the vow to convince someone else to do the fighting for you. If you convince someone to look out for you and they end up killing someone of their own accord, that's not really your fault, although if you're really trying to RP the character, you'll probably admonish their behaviour.
LittleCarp04
02-27-07, 11:59 PM Though I've never seen a person use Diplomacy to get an "enemy" to the point of friendliness that they would actually fight to protect you.

Over the course of 2 rounds my guy can have nearly any enemy under the Fanatic Descriptor (Found in Epic Lvl Handbook), but he usually jsut makes them friendly, as it says in the PhB that they, "Will take risks to heal you" and gives "protect, back up, heal, aid" as options for the character, so this is how he usually stays alive in battle. Since he cant technically hurt anything, so thats why i was wanting the rules clarification.

By that logic, you ought to be able to spend the 1,000's of gold you pull in as your share of party loot to build your own orphanage and thereby "help more people."

Maybe I dont get it, but how is donating thousands to build an orphanage, even if you are building it and saving it until then, against the vow? I mean I guess since i cant "Own" any worthly possessions, i can see your point, but i know if i were DMing i would allow the character to do this, of course keeping VERY careful track of all the moolah to make sure he didnt sneak any away for himself or pay any less than stellar characters with it.

Nonetheless, thanks for both replies! Helped me out a bit, anyone else have any opinions on the clothes? I mean not like silk and gold lined suit here, just something that maybe a decent merchant would wear, but if not then I can see why.
nameneeded
02-28-07, 12:05 AM No you cannot use the tome. VOP states you cannot own or use any material possesions with certain exceptions. Its quite clear. You can't even use a magic item on someone else or borrow one. Its all in the feat description pg 48 BED. Now if a party member say used a wish spell on you to raise a stat that by rules is allowed. As a DM I would spank you hard for doing it though as it is against the spirit of the feat. By u reading the tome (which takes 48hrs) you are using a magic item.

The tailoring thing I would also say no to. Even if given for free it is not something that is needed. You could make better clothes for homeless so they may gain from it. Remember you are not to gain, own use anything cept what is listed inthe book. In our game I have a VOP Monk who does carry his share of the wealth. It is in his sack as gems. And he donates them everywhere he goes. Recently he set up a work for homeless program in a city. Don't forget your entitled to and are suppose to take your EQUAL share of loot. Not just the party cast offs.

The peace thing is the hardest. I would say no. Because as a peace person you are to stop any helpless person fom being killed. you take penaties if it happens if your within like 120'. If those around have given you thier oath that they will not kill any helpless people and do they suffer the effects you would. So then it becomes did your new friend kill a helpless person or merely defend themselves. Remember that your primary function is to wage peace not war. If that means you turned your back on a diplomatic/ peaceful solution you LOSE the benifits from the feat. No discussion.

The feats were meant to be hard to play. Thats why they are fairly goofy.

Out of curiosity.....is this one character with both feats? Do they have the other Vow feats?
LittleCarp04
02-28-07, 01:38 AM Yeah hes my Diplomancer and has Vow of Nonviolence, Peace, and Poverty. Also has some other exalted feats due to Poverty, but of course they arent as strict in their rules interpretations as the vows.

The reason I am asking is becuase he hardly ever does anything in combat, usually he just heals the party (he has cleric lvls), and casts a few minor buffs, this is hte first time he has ever had to actually do anything to prevent getting hurt in combat, and he basically convinced an Ogre Mage to defend him, and his new mage friend launched a fireball killing alot of the other lower lvl enemies (was a weak tribe of Goblins or something ruled by the mage).

And we were unsure of how to continue with the ngative repurcussions, i told him, "Protect me without killing the enemies" and i guess he didnt like that idea. The Vow of Nonviolence (which has the - attribute attached to it) says that the ally who slays a helpless or defenseless foe within 120 ft of me takes -1 morale penalty on his attack rolls for 1/hr....

The question on that is simply, did I break my vow? I hope I didn't because I did ask for him to do it without killing, but since I dont have DIRECT control over him, I would say I wasn't at fault.
Feroz
02-28-07, 08:07 AM And we were unsure of how to continue with the ngative repurcussions, i told him, "Protect me without killing the enemies" and i guess he didnt like that idea. The Vow of Nonviolence (which has the - attribute attached to it) says that the ally who slays a helpless or defenseless foe within 120 ft of me takes -1 morale penalty on his attack rolls for 1/hr....

The question on that is simply, did I break my vow? I hope I didn't because I did ask for him to do it without killing, but since I dont have DIRECT control over him, I would say I wasn't at fault.

The key part of that equation is that the vow says 'Helpless or defenseless'

Unless you had all those goblins tied up and piled up so that the mage could fireball them, they probably weren't helpless. And if they were actively posing a threat to any of you, making to attack you in any way or such, then they're not defenseless, so there's nothing forbidding you from letting your allies attack and even kill them to protect themselves and you. Of course if they were just a small group of unarmed goblins not making to attack you or anything, you're probably in trouble, and once they're dropped and unconscious, if they're still alive, you're pretty much required to do your best to stop anyone from finishing them off, and, depending on how strict your DM is about it, he may even require you to actively try to prevent them from dying, which IMO he should do, after all, what's the point of keeping your vow and not CDGing them when they're down if you're just going to let them bleed out? But as long as this isn't slaughtering goblins who aren't any immediate threat to you, you should be alright.
Sleepwalker13666
02-28-07, 08:34 AM Currently I'm playing a game as a human fighter with the vow of poverty and vow of peace.

For cloths my character has some frayed silk scraps that she braided together, the silv itself has no value in it's damaged condition, I thought about ways I could work on making better clouths, but with that vow you really would'nt be concerned, you are poor, at most you might keep your clouths clean and bathe frequently, but any act to better your well being is'nt playing into the restrictions of the vow.

As for the vow of peace, unless you get the party members and allies to agree to a lesser vow you are not responsible for thier actions, someone who does'nt take this lesser vow might not be someone you want to travel with, but for a time you might try and lead by example. In your example above however you are asking someone to put themselfs in harms way for you, when your body shatters weapons you have no reason to ask someone to take a blade for you, your faith is suposed to be stronger than thier steel so in that example I would say you should'nt do that, now if you befirend an enemy and the jump in the line of fire for you of thier own free will, then it's not your problem.
runestar
02-28-07, 09:10 AM I think you might be confusing the vow of peace with the vow of nonviolence?:confused:

With regards to clothing, I suppose so long as it as no actual in-game mechanical impact(like some sort of ad-hoc competence bonus to diplomacy due to flashier clothing), I suppose there is no harm in allowing a change of clothes.:)
Frugal
02-28-07, 10:04 AM With regards to clothing, I suppose so long as it as no actual in-game mechanical impact(like some sort of ad-hoc competence bonus to diplomacy due to flashier clothing), I suppose there is no harm in allowing a change of clothes.:)

I'm pretty sure it does say you only wear simple homespun (or similar) clothes but I'm away from my books. The thing is, it's not simply a matter of the cost of the clothing but I think that Vow of Poverty represents following an acetic lifestyle; it's about rejecting material comforts as much as it's about rejecting wealth.
LittleCarp04
02-28-07, 03:06 PM Feroz, the goblins were definately a threat, somehow we blundered into their tribal den, not exactly sure how we didnt see it.... and as my first action i talked the ogre mage into defending us, all goblins died without any chance for me to heal them, so there was no way for me to try to do anything about it, and Im not so sure exactly what we should do with the ogre mage, i mean now hes friendly with me, but i told him what he did was horrible, and not sure how to progress next session with that...

About the clothes, yeah i realized that having the nice clothes while not really worth anything, would be breaking the vow because the materials could have been used to help a homeless man get a nicer set of clothes so that he could get a good job or something.
RealSorceror
02-28-07, 03:15 PM Speaking of Vow of Peace, the feat says the character can still destroy undead and constructs.
Would destroying a good aligned undead or construct violat the vow?
What about a living construct, such as a Warforged?
And lastly, since you can destroy undead, is there any problem with a "nonviolent" character taking undead slaying PrC and hunting undead?
runestar
02-28-07, 10:06 PM Speaking of Vow of Peace, the feat says the character can still destroy undead and constructs.
I think the intention of that rule was make allowance for defeating foes otherwise immune to non-lethal damage. Think about it, if you not allowed to deal lethal damage, then you are automatically screwed against constructs and mindless undead. In theory, you could still make successful diplomacy checks against intelligent undead though...
Would destroying a good aligned undead or construct violat the vow?
What about a living construct, such as a Warforged?
And lastly, since you can destroy undead, is there any problem with a "nonviolent" character taking undead slaying PrC and hunting undead?
I think you are still expected to do the necessarily roleplaying to display your pacifist tendencies.:) Only when all else fails should you resort of violence as a last resort. Remember, because of your vow, you would be disinclined towards violence. So you should not be itching to rush into battle against undead/constructs, even though you can technically do so.
LittleCarp04
02-28-07, 10:25 PM The only time i would allow you to take the undead slayer PrC would be if undead are killing all the homeless in your city becuase they cant get indoors, something like zombies sweep the streets at night or something.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LittleCarp04 02-27-07, 09:43 PM	Hey everyone, I had a few questions of Vow of Poverty and Vow of Peace. If a party member wants me to read the Tome to add a stat am I allowed to read it? Or would he choose to keep it since it is his share of the treasure? Also on the poverty side, If i take Craft (Tailoring) could I make a nicer set of clothes then homespun shirt and pants if i get all the materials for free or in exchange for work, the idea being that if i dress nicer I can get a better job to help by donating more. Onto Vow of Peace, if i use Diplomacy to have a enemy help protect me, and he kills one of his enemies is that breaking my vow since i had him help protect us? Thanks a ton for any help!
KurenaiYami 02-27-07, 11:15 PM	Hey everyone, I had a few questions of Vow of Poverty and Vow of Peace. If a party member wants me to read the Tome to add a stat am I allowed to read it? Or would he choose to keep it since it is his share of the treasure? I see nothing wrong with this as long as he doesn't actually own the book. It would sort of be like lending a potion. Assuming you're talking about the stat increasing tomes, otherwise I have no idea what you're talking about. Also on the poverty side, If i take Craft (Tailoring) could I make a nicer set of clothes then homespun shirt and pants if i get all the materials for free or in exchange for work, the idea being that if i dress nicer I can get a better job to help by donating more. Depends on your DM's interpretation of "simple clothes." I'd personally say know due to my interpretation of RAI. Onto Vow of Peace, if i use Diplomacy to have a enemy help protect me, and he kills one of his enemies is that breaking my vow since i had him help protect us? Thanks a ton for any help! The feat only says that you cannot harm them. If they harm themselves of put themselves in harm's way, that's there decision. Though I've never seen a person use Diplomacy to get an "enemy" to the point of friendliness that they would actually fight to protect you.
Steevo 02-27-07, 11:20 PM	Hey everyone, I had a few questions of Vow of Poverty and Vow of Peace. If a party member wants me to read the Tome to add a stat am I allowed to read it? Or would he choose to keep it since it is his share of the treasure? I'm unfamiliar with the exact wording of Vow of Poverty, but I would be incline to say "no." This is benefiting from treasure, which IIRC is against the vow. Also on the poverty side, If i take Craft (Tailoring) could I make a nicer set of clothes then homespun shirt and pants if i get all the materials for free or in exchange for work, the idea being that if i dress nicer I can get a better job to help by donating more. Again, I would say "no." By that logic, you ought to be able to spend the 1,000's of gold you pull in as your share of party loot to build your own orphanage and thereby "help more people." But you're still building up material possessions which is kind of contrary to the point of the vow. That said, if there was a community in dire need of clothing, I would permit this character to sew new clothes for donation to the community. Onto Vow of Peace, if i use Diplomacy to have a enemy help protect me, and he kills one of his enemies is that breaking my vow since i had him help protect us? Thanks a ton for any help! Again, I'm not familiar with the exact wording of the vow, but I would be inclined to think this is NOT a breach of your vow. Although I suppose that depends on the situation, too. If the situation is obviously about to get violent, it's probably against the spirit of the vow to convince someone else to do the fighting for you. If you convince someone to look out for you and they end up killing someone of their own accord, that's not really your fault, although if you're really trying to RP the character, you'll probably admonish their behaviour.
LittleCarp04 02-27-07, 11:59 PM	Though I've never seen a person use Diplomacy to get an "enemy" to the point of friendliness that they would actually fight to protect you. Over the course of 2 rounds my guy can have nearly any enemy under the Fanatic Descriptor (Found in Epic Lvl Handbook), but he usually jsut makes them friendly, as it says in the PhB that they, "Will take risks to heal you" and gives "protect, back up, heal, aid" as options for the character, so this is how he usually stays alive in battle. Since he cant technically hurt anything, so thats why i was wanting the rules clarification. By that logic, you ought to be able to spend the 1,000's of gold you pull in as your share of party loot to build your own orphanage and thereby "help more people." Maybe I dont get it, but how is donating thousands to build an orphanage, even if you are building it and saving it until then, against the vow? I mean I guess since i cant "Own" any worthly possessions, i can see your point, but i know if i were DMing i would allow the character to do this, of course keeping VERY careful track of all the moolah to make sure he didnt sneak any away for himself or pay any less than stellar characters with it. Nonetheless, thanks for both replies! Helped me out a bit, anyone else have any opinions on the clothes? I mean not like silk and gold lined suit here, just something that maybe a decent merchant would wear, but if not then I can see why.
nameneeded 02-28-07, 12:05 AM	No you cannot use the tome. VOP states you cannot own or use any material possesions with certain exceptions. Its quite clear. You can't even use a magic item on someone else or borrow one. Its all in the feat description pg 48 BED. Now if a party member say used a wish spell on you to raise a stat that by rules is allowed. As a DM I would spank you hard for doing it though as it is against the spirit of the feat. By u reading the tome (which takes 48hrs) you are using a magic item. The tailoring thing I would also say no to. Even if given for free it is not something that is needed. You could make better clothes for homeless so they may gain from it. Remember you are not to gain, own use anything cept what is listed inthe book. In our game I have a VOP Monk who does carry his share of the wealth. It is in his sack as gems. And he donates them everywhere he goes. Recently he set up a work for homeless program in a city. Don't forget your entitled to and are suppose to take your EQUAL share of loot. Not just the party cast offs. The peace thing is the hardest. I would say no. Because as a peace person you are to stop any helpless person fom being killed. you take penaties if it happens if your within like 120'. If those around have given you thier oath that they will not kill any helpless people and do they suffer the effects you would. So then it becomes did your new friend kill a helpless person or merely defend themselves. Remember that your primary function is to wage peace not war. If that means you turned your back on a diplomatic/ peaceful solution you LOSE the benifits from the feat. No discussion. The feats were meant to be hard to play. Thats why they are fairly goofy. Out of curiosity.....is this one character with both feats? Do they have the other Vow feats?
LittleCarp04 02-28-07, 01:38 AM	Yeah hes my Diplomancer and has Vow of Nonviolence, Peace, and Poverty. Also has some other exalted feats due to Poverty, but of course they arent as strict in their rules interpretations as the vows. The reason I am asking is becuase he hardly ever does anything in combat, usually he just heals the party (he has cleric lvls), and casts a few minor buffs, this is hte first time he has ever had to actually do anything to prevent getting hurt in combat, and he basically convinced an Ogre Mage to defend him, and his new mage friend launched a fireball killing alot of the other lower lvl enemies (was a weak tribe of Goblins or something ruled by the mage). And we were unsure of how to continue with the ngative repurcussions, i told him, "Protect me without killing the enemies" and i guess he didnt like that idea. The Vow of Nonviolence (which has the - attribute attached to it) says that the ally who slays a helpless or defenseless foe within 120 ft of me takes -1 morale penalty on his attack rolls for 1/hr.... The question on that is simply, did I break my vow? I hope I didn't because I did ask for him to do it without killing, but since I dont have DIRECT control over him, I would say I wasn't at fault.
Feroz 02-28-07, 08:07 AM	And we were unsure of how to continue with the ngative repurcussions, i told him, "Protect me without killing the enemies" and i guess he didnt like that idea. The Vow of Nonviolence (which has the - attribute attached to it) says that the ally who slays a helpless or defenseless foe within 120 ft of me takes -1 morale penalty on his attack rolls for 1/hr.... The question on that is simply, did I break my vow? I hope I didn't because I did ask for him to do it without killing, but since I dont have DIRECT control over him, I would say I wasn't at fault. The key part of that equation is that the vow says 'Helpless or defenseless' Unless you had all those goblins tied up and piled up so that the mage could fireball them, they probably weren't helpless. And if they were actively posing a threat to any of you, making to attack you in any way or such, then they're not defenseless, so there's nothing forbidding you from letting your allies attack and even kill them to protect themselves and you. Of course if they were just a small group of unarmed goblins not making to attack you or anything, you're probably in trouble, and once they're dropped and unconscious, if they're still alive, you're pretty much required to do your best to stop anyone from finishing them off, and, depending on how strict your DM is about it, he may even require you to actively try to prevent them from dying, which IMO he should do, after all, what's the point of keeping your vow and not CDGing them when they're down if you're just going to let them bleed out? But as long as this isn't slaughtering goblins who aren't any immediate threat to you, you should be alright.
Sleepwalker13666 02-28-07, 08:34 AM	Currently I'm playing a game as a human fighter with the vow of poverty and vow of peace. For cloths my character has some frayed silk scraps that she braided together, the silv itself has no value in it's damaged condition, I thought about ways I could work on making better clouths, but with that vow you really would'nt be concerned, you are poor, at most you might keep your clouths clean and bathe frequently, but any act to better your well being is'nt playing into the restrictions of the vow. As for the vow of peace, unless you get the party members and allies to agree to a lesser vow you are not responsible for thier actions, someone who does'nt take this lesser vow might not be someone you want to travel with, but for a time you might try and lead by example. In your example above however you are asking someone to put themselfs in harms way for you, when your body shatters weapons you have no reason to ask someone to take a blade for you, your faith is suposed to be stronger than thier steel so in that example I would say you should'nt do that, now if you befirend an enemy and the jump in the line of fire for you of thier own free will, then it's not your problem.
runestar 02-28-07, 09:10 AM	I think you might be confusing the vow of peace with the vow of nonviolence?:confused: With regards to clothing, I suppose so long as it as no actual in-game mechanical impact(like some sort of ad-hoc competence bonus to diplomacy due to flashier clothing), I suppose there is no harm in allowing a change of clothes.:)
Frugal 02-28-07, 10:04 AM	With regards to clothing, I suppose so long as it as no actual in-game mechanical impact(like some sort of ad-hoc competence bonus to diplomacy due to flashier clothing), I suppose there is no harm in allowing a change of clothes.:) I'm pretty sure it does say you only wear simple homespun (or similar) clothes but I'm away from my books. The thing is, it's not simply a matter of the cost of the clothing but I think that Vow of Poverty represents following an acetic lifestyle; it's about rejecting material comforts as much as it's about rejecting wealth.
LittleCarp04 02-28-07, 03:06 PM	Feroz, the goblins were definately a threat, somehow we blundered into their tribal den, not exactly sure how we didnt see it.... and as my first action i talked the ogre mage into defending us, all goblins died without any chance for me to heal them, so there was no way for me to try to do anything about it, and Im not so sure exactly what we should do with the ogre mage, i mean now hes friendly with me, but i told him what he did was horrible, and not sure how to progress next session with that... About the clothes, yeah i realized that having the nice clothes while not really worth anything, would be breaking the vow because the materials could have been used to help a homeless man get a nicer set of clothes so that he could get a good job or something.
RealSorceror 02-28-07, 03:15 PM	Speaking of Vow of Peace, the feat says the character can still destroy undead and constructs. Would destroying a good aligned undead or construct violat the vow? What about a living construct, such as a Warforged? And lastly, since you can destroy undead, is there any problem with a "nonviolent" character taking undead slaying PrC and hunting undead?
runestar 02-28-07, 10:06 PM	Speaking of Vow of Peace, the feat says the character can still destroy undead and constructs. I think the intention of that rule was make allowance for defeating foes otherwise immune to non-lethal damage. Think about it, if you not allowed to deal lethal damage, then you are automatically screwed against constructs and mindless undead. In theory, you could still make successful diplomacy checks against intelligent undead though... Would destroying a good aligned undead or construct violat the vow? What about a living construct, such as a Warforged? And lastly, since you can destroy undead, is there any problem with a "nonviolent" character taking undead slaying PrC and hunting undead? I think you are still expected to do the necessarily roleplaying to display your pacifist tendencies.:) Only when all else fails should you resort of violence as a last resort. Remember, because of your vow, you would be disinclined towards violence. So you should not be itching to rush into battle against undead/constructs, even though you can technically do so.
LittleCarp04 02-28-07, 10:25 PM	The only time i would allow you to take the undead slayer PrC would be if undead are killing all the homeless in your city becuase they cant get indoors, something like zombies sweep the streets at night or something.