Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gorrath 06-10-07, 06:20 PM	Hi I don't know if it has already been asked but I didn't find my answer with the search engine. A player in my group wants to make a druid with the VoP feat... I was just wondering if there is some VoP bonus that doesn't work with the wild shape ability. In the Alternate form ability it says: "The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature)." So my question is...does he only loses extraordinary abilities that are attacks or does he loses all extraordinary abilities...it's not quite clear. All those things are extraordinary abilities of the VoP feat: -Endure Elements -Sustenance -Resistance -Ability Score Enhancement -Natural Armor -Mind Shielding -Greater Sustenance -Energy Resistance -Freedom of Movement -Regeneration I also have another question: In the Exalted Strike ability it says this: "At 4th level, an ascetic gains a +1 enhancement bonus on all his attack and damage rolls. In effect, any weapon the character wields becomes a +1 magic weapon, and can overcome the damage reduction of a creature as though it were a magic weapon." I'm not sure about this one...it says on all his attack/damage rolls and then it says it has an effect on any weapon the character wields. Does it works on natural attacks??? It's not a weapon the character is wielding but it's part of "all his attacks"... Thank you for your help! Patrick
koiulpoi 06-10-07, 06:58 PM	Well, it straight-up says the creature loses natural armor. As for the rest, well, it says "extraordinary special attacks". None of those sound like attacks to me, or anything close. If the character had spells cast on him that did the same thing before he wildshaped, he wouldn't lose them when he wildshaped. For exalted strike, it sounds like it works for touch, grapple and disarm (all attack rolls), so it sounds like it applies to natural weapons too. My two cents.
Gorrath 06-10-07, 07:10 PM	As for the rest, well, it says "extraordinary special attacks". None of those sound like attacks to me, or anything close. If the character had spells cast on him that did the same thing before he wildshaped, he wouldn't lose them when he wildshaped. Ok, but it says you may keep extraordinary special attacks derived from class level like the barbarian rage, but a barbarian is not actually an "attack"...???
koiulpoi 06-10-07, 07:38 PM	OK, Wait a minute. You're talking about the "alternate form" special ability, which the Druid does NOT have. Wild Shape works like the Polymorph spell, which doesn't say anything about losing the ability to rage, etc. Would a Rogue/Druid lose evasion just because they become a bear? I'd say no. EDIT: Nevermind, I need to read the errata more. I still don't think you'd lose anything "passive" when you shapechange.
Gorrath 06-10-07, 09:33 PM	If all those bonus really apply to Wild Shape, it's one hell of an unbalanced combo!
runestar 06-10-07, 11:25 PM	He would keep all of them. VOP is a feat. Thus, those bonuses are derived from said feat, which carries over in wildshape, the same way a druid who wildshapes is still able to benefit from the toughness or endurance feat.:)
Gorrath 06-10-07, 11:42 PM	Damn it...that's just plain stupid. They should make an errata or something about this, it's just damn broken. Why the hell should a level 20 wild shaped druid who made a vow of poverty has 13 more AC than another level 20 wild shaped standard druid??? That's not counting his +5 to hit and + 5 to damage as well as his DR 10/Evil. We should not forget his energy resistance 15 against all type of energy, his regeneration, his freedom of movement, his true seeing, his mind shielding, his greater sustenance and the last but the not the least, his 11 exalted feats. Some game designers should make a bit more playtesting before releasing crap like this. Just my 2 cents
risner 06-10-07, 11:53 PM	So my question is...does he only loses extraordinary abilities that are attacks or does he loses all extraordinary abilities... In the Exalted Strike ability it says this: I'm not sure about this one...it says on all his attack/damage rolls and then it says it has an effect on any weapon the character wields. Does it works on natural attacks??? It's not a weapon the character is wielding but it's part of "all his attacks"... There are two types of Ex abilities. Attacks and Qualities. Attacks are like energy drain. Qualities are like Darkvision. You retain Qualities, but not Attacks. As for the enhancement bonus, that is to any non magical weapon he uses. I don't read it to mean natural weapons, since it does say weapon without adding the qualifier for natural weapon. Unless he is a Monk, he also wouldn't get it for his Unarmed Strikes/Unarmed Attacks (Monk's unarmed is "considered a weapon for the purpose of all weapon enhancements.") The vows can be a blessing and a curse. For instance, if you have a TPK with the single class VoP Monk alone and he picks up the wand the Cleric bought with the Cleric's own money to heal the Cleric back up to 1 or more hit points. You (as a VoP) player can not make use of a wand or other charged items without breaking your vow regardless of who owns the wand. Why the hell should a level 20 wild shaped druid who made a vow of poverty has 13 more AC than another level 20 wild shaped standard druid??? With respect, that was be a retarded Druid to allow a VoP Druid to beat him on AC while Wild Shaped. I wouldn't let the VoP Druid have a higher AC than me. If the DM plays the Vows properly, they are not overpowered. In fact, they may be slightly underpowered. The problems comes when the restrictions are not enforced.
Jamven The Fighter 06-11-07, 01:17 AM	Damn it...that's just plain stupid. They should make an errata or something about this, it's just damn broken. Why the hell should a level 20 wild shaped druid who made a vow of poverty has 13 more AC than another level 20 wild shaped standard druid??? That's not counting his +5 to hit and + 5 to damage as well as his DR 10/Evil. We should not forget his energy resistance 15 against all type of energy, his regeneration, his freedom of movement, his true seeing, his mind shielding, his greater sustenance and the last but the not the least, his 11 exalted feats. Some game designers should make a bit more playtesting before releasing crap like this. Just my 2 cents Uhhh....because the 20th level Druid with VoP doesn't have the seven hundred-some-odd-thousand GP of equipment that the 'standard' druid does. Not to mention the fact that the exalted feats are kinda the suck....
runestar 06-11-07, 03:58 AM	1) Take touch of golden ice. 2) Wildshape into an octopus. 3) Attack with 8 tentacles (potentially dealing ravage damage with each hit) 4) Profit...:D
Sleepwalker13666 06-11-07, 04:43 AM	It's never been a secret, the druid is one of the classes that benefits the most from VoP, but as has been mentioned the druid doesn't have any equipment, and with things like beastskin armor available and gloves of man, a druid would be able to use weapons and armor in animal form if he didn't take the vow, so the druzilla with VoP is simply a different evil than a standard.
Gorrath 06-11-07, 08:33 AM	Uhhh....because the 20th level Druid with VoP doesn't have the seven hundred-some-odd-thousand GP of equipment that the 'standard' druid does. Not to mention the fact that the exalted feats are kinda the suck.... Well, I know the standard druid could have a beastskin armor to retain his armor while wild shaped...there must be some other stuff like this but I don't know them. It's true the 20th level standard druid would have like 760 000 gp worth of stuff, but how much of this would he have while wild shaped? The VoP keeps his 500 000 gp worth of abilities while wild shaped. I know the standard druid would not wild shape if he's stronger when not wild shaped with all his stuff. There is just to much optimization you can do. With the VoP you know you'll pass most of your time in animal form so you can put some really low score in STR and DEX and keep all those points to get a lot of really high stats without a real drawback.
Gorrath 06-11-07, 08:34 AM	It's never been a secret, the druid is one of the classes that benefits the most from VoP, but as has been mentioned the druid doesn't have any equipment, and with things like beastskin armor available and gloves of man, a druid would be able to use weapons and armor in animal form if he didn't take the vow, so the druzilla with VoP is simply a different evil than a standard. Gloves of man? In which book could I find that? Thank You
runestar 06-11-07, 08:50 AM	Well, I know the standard druid could have a beastskin armor to retain his armor while wild shaped...there must be some other stuff like this but I don't know them. It's true the 20th level standard druid would have like 760 000 gp worth of stuff, but how much of this would he have while wild shaped? The VoP keeps his 500 000 gp worth of abilities while wild shaped. All, depending on how you rule in your games. Technically, a druid could easily disrobe prior to wildshaping, wildshape, then have the other PCs put on his magic gear for him. Boots, rings, amulets etc will automatically reshape to fit its wearer's new size, so there is no problem there. For AC, either strap on a monk's belt (for wis mod to AC) or invest in a wild +5 dragonhide fullplate (which you do not even need to be proficient in, since it melds into your new form) and a +5 dancing darkwood shield.
goawayugh 06-11-07, 09:02 AM	Boots, rings, amulets etc will automatically reshape to fit its wearer's new size, so there is no problem there. Where do you get that from? (unless I'm really not awake yet, and it said this in the DMG.)
runestar 06-11-07, 09:57 AM	It is stated somewhere in the DMG, regarding magic item basics. The only exception is armour and weapon size. Somewhere along this line... When an article of magic clothing or jewelry is discovered, most of the time size shouldn’t be an issue. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items. There may be rare exceptions, especially with racial specific items.
JudgeK 06-11-07, 03:12 PM	Gloves of man? In which book could I find that? Thank You It's in the book titled "Savage Species."
Gorrath 06-11-07, 07:28 PM	It's in the book titled "Savage Species." Thanks!
koiulpoi 06-11-07, 10:16 PM	Yes, I was going to say take a level of monk to get Wis to AC for the VoP druid. You lose a level of druid, but your AC goes through the roof. Honestly, despite what the official rules say, I don't run it that the monk's belt gives Wisdom to AC. Seems silly, but nobody in my games has ever argued about it, so it doesn't matter.
runestar 06-11-07, 10:28 PM	1 lv of monk will be problematic. You need to start off as lawful, then somehow have your alignment shift to neutral good. I am not sure how many dms allow that blatant an alignment drop... How does the saint template stack up? I think the CO boards actually recommends against it for the druid, citing the loss of spellcasting as too great an opportunity cost...:confused:
Part-Human2 06-11-07, 10:47 PM	Save My Game: Vow of Poverty Part 2 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20060616a) discusses these issues.
pupilofyah 06-18-07, 08:55 PM	Hi I don't know if it has already been asked but I didn't find my answer with the search engine. A player in my group wants to make a druid with the VoP feat... I was just wondering if there is some VoP bonus that doesn't work with the wild shape ability. In the Alternate form ability it says: "The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature)." So my question is...does he only loses extraordinary abilities that are attacks or does he loses all extraordinary abilities...it's not quite clear. All those things are extraordinary abilities of the VoP feat: -Endure Elements -Sustenance -Resistance -Ability Score Enhancement -Natural Armor -Mind Shielding -Greater Sustenance -Energy Resistance -Freedom of Movement -Regeneration I also have another question: In the Exalted Strike ability it says this: "At 4th level, an ascetic gains a +1 enhancement bonus on all his attack and damage rolls. In effect, any weapon the character wields becomes a +1 magic weapon, and can overcome the damage reduction of a creature as though it were a magic weapon." I'm not sure about this one...it says on all his attack/damage rolls and then it says it has an effect on any weapon the character wields. Does it works on natural attacks??? It's not a weapon the character is wielding but it's part of "all his attacks"... Thank you for your help! Patrick exalted feats are supernatural so i think that mean that even in the new form the char has it.
efreeti 06-19-07, 07:09 AM	This has all been discussed before on various threads but hoestly Gorrath if you are running a standard cash level campaign VOP is fine, if not a little underpowered. What the druid gains more than anything is a decent armour class and various permanent effects similar to spells it can already cast (magic fang\align fang\stat buffs\freedom\energy resist etc) This means the druid has a better spell selection option each day because he doesn't need to memorise so many buffs. What he loses really does compensate for this. No healing items, no scrolls, no wands, limited weapon choice, no ioun stones, no staffs, no druid vestments, no nothing, just a pair of pants and a stick. When my druid first took VOP we discussed the option of limiting the abilities whilst in wildshape if it turned out too powerfull. He is now at 16th level and we have not bothered changing anything. VOP is better for Druids and Monks but IMHO this means it actuall needs making better for the other classes rather than nerfing for those two. First and foremost it is a roleplaying choice and needs to be played and reffed properly. Play it for a while as written and see how it goes.
Ogg 06-19-07, 09:57 AM	This has all been discussed before on various threads but hoestly Gorrath if you are running a standard cash level campaign VOP is fine, if not a little underpowered. Exactly! Yes! VoP is way more useful to druids & monks. Yes! It gives them some great AC especially to start. Bottom line is it depends on the world you're running. If you're running a low magic world the VoP is too powerful. If you're running a medium or high powered campaign characters should be able to surpass the benefits easily with things like bracers of armor, rings of sustenance, ioun stones, or a lot of the magic items listed above in the druid's case. Mind you I love taking it as a monk just so I don't have to deal with buying & selling equipment. I'm lazy like that. ;)