Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Realms of Chaos 12-04-07, 12:43 AM	I’ve seen some people suggest an evil vow of poverty. If it existed, this is how I think it would work. As a side not, Unspeakable Vow is from Drow of the Underdark in case you haven’t heard of it. Vow of Sacrifice [Vile] You have pledged all of your worldly possessions to your otherworldly masters Prerequisite: Unspeakable Vow Benefit: In exchange for all possessions of wealth, your dark patron grants you great boon. You gain a +2 deflection bonus to your AC and learn Infernal and Abyssal as bonus languages, if you do not already possess them. In addition, you gain a single vile feat that you meet all prerequisites for. Every night, at midnight, you may exchange this feat for another one. When casting spells, you no longer need to provide focuses (or divine focuses) and may expend some of your life force instead of providing material components, paying 1 XP/5 gp of the material component’s cost. For every two levels you possess, you gain a +1 profane bonus to your AC, a +1 profane bonus on all charisma-based skill checks made against evil targets and on intimidate checks made against good targets, and a –1 penalty on all other charisma-based skill checks made against good targets. In addition, so long as you possess at least 2 levels, you endure the effects of heat and cold as if affected by an endure elements spell. At 4th level and every 4 levels afterwards, you gain an additional bonus vile feat which may be exchanged every day at midnight and gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls and damage rolls. In addition, at 4th level, all of your attacks are treated as being magical for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction. In addition, at 4th level, you no longer need to eat or drink. At 8th level, you gain immunity to all nonmagical diseases. At 12th level, you no longer need to sleep. At 16th level, you gain immunity to all poisons. At 20th level, you no longer need to breathe. Upon taking this feat, you must willingly give up the use of magical items. At no point may you buy, sell, or barter for any item or commodity (although you may barter for services), although you may take any item you should find, steal, or be given (either by choice or under duress). You may not use any magic weapon or armor and may not actively utilize any magic item (as such, you could not drink a potion but could ride on a magic carpet so long as someone else is controlling it). You may however hand any magic items that you find to others, so long as this action does not activate the item. In addition, you must seek out treasures for the express purpose of destruction. At least once per month, you must perform an hour-long sacrificial ritual to destroy at least 400/level gp worth of items, goods, and/or coins. For every time that this ritual is completed in one week beyond the first, you gain one of the below benefits for the remainder of the month: Dark Resilience: You gain fast healing 1. The value of this fast healing is increased by 1 for every five levels you possess. Dark Resistance: You gain energy resistance 5 against an energy type of your choice (acid, cold, electricity, fire, sonic). For every four levels you possess, this resistance is increased by 5. For every 5 levels you possess, you gain energy resistance against another form of energy, although all additional resistances beyond the first possess half the normal value. Dark Armor: You gain Damage Reduction 1/Good. The value of this Damage reduction is increased by 1 at 4th level and every even level afterwards. Dark Sight: You gain darkvision out to 60 feet. For every three levels you possess, the range of this darkvision is extended by 20 feet. At 4th level, you can see in magical darkness. At 8th level, you can no longer be flanked or caught flat footed so long as you are conscious and mobile. At 12th level, you can see invisible creatures. At 16th level, you can see ethereal creatures. At 20th level, you automatically see through any glamer or figment effects, are immune to pattern effects, and gain immunity to all gaze attacks. Dark Gift: Your type changes to outsider and you gain the evil subtype. As such, you are no longer affected by effects that specifically target humanoids, such as charm person. For every 2 levels you possess, you gain a +2 profane bonus to any ability scores. These profane bonuses stack with themselves. You may not benefit from the same reward more than once at any given time. If you possess all rewards when you make a sacrifice, you instantly heal 5 hit points/level at the end of the ritual. If you are at least 20th level and make a sacrifice while possessing all gifts, you are also granted a wish, as the spell, by your otherworldly patron. You can gain no more than one wish each week, regardless of how many sacrifices you make. In addition, once you make the wish, if you violate your vow at any point until the end of the week, you are instantly slain (no saving throw). Special: if you violate the terms of this feat, either willingly or unwillingly (even under the effects of a compulsion), you lose all benefits from this feat. In order to regain the benefits of this feat, you must be subject to an atonement spell within a desecrated or unhallowed area. If the violation was intentional, the casting costs the spellcaster 500 xp. Edits: too many to count, but most recently, you can now own all but magic items, the sacrifice price has gone up to 400/level but only once per month, the vile tag has finally been added, and dark sight lets you see ethereal creatures instead of incorporeal ones (which it was meant to say to begin with). Plus, dark sight was generally improved to make it more worthwhile.
runestar 12-04-07, 01:10 AM	IMO, the vows seem more lawful than good or evil. To add that evil element, adding the stipulation that you have to cause destruction amounting to the amount of gear you would otherwise have (at least) seems fitting.
Realms of Chaos 12-04-07, 09:13 AM	The evil in this is quite subtle so I shall share it with you. The feat only grants its maximum benefits when the beneficiary destroys additional items. As such, even a first level human would have to destroy 1,200 gp of items each week to get full effect. As such, despite the fact that the player won't ever use items, they will become incredibly greedy, stealing everything in sight (even from other party members) just to get more power. If the beneficiary runs out of money, things get even more desparate, because they are expected to grant a sacrifice by the end of the week, circumstances aside. A target in the wild might either cut down tons of trees to offer the lumber or steal their party's treasure just to make ends meet. In short, it is evil because (a) the target actively seeks out items to destroy rather than just offering what items they posses and (b) don't care what lengths they have to go through to get that item (be it thievery, murder, or poison [which you may notice the vow allows you to keep]).
Hsien 12-04-07, 11:22 AM	Amount isn'tl that much of a sacrifice, esp. in comparison to VoP at the higher end. 1200 per week although expensive at low levels is barely a fottnote at the high end. Just a thought; try something more scaled. 500-1000 each Character level per week Lets look at the avg. (750/week) at level 5, 10 and 20 5 = 3750; 10 = 7500 ; 20 = 15,000 1200/wk, who cares at 20th level 15k/wk, now it's not just a matter of easily getting by, you have to get an actual share of treasure to meet the Sacrifice requirement. Although by no means a finished product, that's much more of a sacrifice (which imo the Vows are intended to be, not just an inconvienance )
Legdiwena 12-04-07, 05:56 PM	This seems much more restrictive than VoP.
Realms of Chaos 12-04-07, 08:10 PM	Yeah, the 1200 price is only at 1st level. To get full benefits, the full cost is 1200/level gp each week. At 20th level, that price is a grand 24000 gp each week, something that is pretty hard to pay in the long run. As for it being restricted, it is actually more liberating than Vow of Poverty. How you may ask. 1) You may hold/horde any item that you find, steal, are given, or create and hand them out to other party members for use (AKA, you can carry around a +5 vorpal sword if you find one, but you just can't use it) 2) As there are specific restrictions on what you cannot use rather than what you can, you can aquire some more costly objects (such as nonmagical poison). 3) More treasure for the others (potentially). In the case with Vow of Poverty, you are expected to donate your entire share of a treasure to the poor. With this, you could theoretically donate all but the minimum you need for your next sacrifice to your fellows (although there is wisdom in stockpiling items just in case). 4) Just one of the party. A character with Vow of Poverty may not see any point is slaying a red dragon to steal their horde. A character with Vow of Sacrifice needs that horde to keep their power. Admittedly, however, the freedom for power exchange between vow of peace and vow of sacrifice aren't quite even. To help even this out, I'll make is so that Vow of Sacrifice can always be saved via an Atonement that must be cast within a desecrated or unhallowed area. Edit: I went into greater detail about what items can and can't be used.
Scion of Coldshard 12-04-07, 08:43 PM	So at level 20 with all of the benefits gained a character has these abilities: +2 deflection bonus to AC Infernal and Abyssal as bonus languages 1 Vile feat +10 profane bonus to AC +10 profane bonus to cha-based skill checks against evil -10 penalty to cha-based skill checks against good Endure elements Fast healing 5 Energy resistance 30 to one type, 15 to all others DR 10/Good Dark vision 180' See in magical darkness See invisible creatures See incorporeal creatures Type -> Outsider Subtype -> Evil 5 instances of +2 profane bonus to an ability score that stacks with itself No gear Even with the bonuses always on without needing to sacrifice items of a specific value (just sacrifice whatever as it comes in) I am not sure I'd be getting a good deal from my dark patron ;)
Realms of Chaos 12-04-07, 11:02 PM	I added some additional benefits at 4th level and every 4 levels afterwards. Comparing this to Vow of Poverty, you have more freedom. a) you can own and use any item other than magical, alchemic, and masterwork items. Although this doesn't sound like much, consider that someone with vow of sacrifice can wear full-plate mail and wield a dagger coated in black lotus extract while someone with vow of poverty is forced to wear a robe and attack with a quarterstaff. b) Its never gone forever. With vow of poverty, if you break the vow, even under a compulsion effect, it is gone forever. With this feat, even if you break the terms on purpose, the effect can be restored (although it is not easy to do so) If you still want to make comparisons, try comparing this feat to the Forsaker prestige class from Masters of the Wild. Compared to that PrC, this feat looks pretty decent.
runestar 12-05-07, 06:42 AM	If this is the case, it seems counterintuitive to take said feat. If the DM is giving out 1200gp/character lv ever so often, why not just forsake the vow and keep all the eq instead? I bet they will outstrip the benefits granted by said feat...:P
Realms of Chaos 12-05-07, 09:47 AM	For one thing, you don't need to pay the full 1200/level cost every week if you don't want to. The baseline for maintaining this feat is a mere 200/level gp. You can maintain a single ability (like, lets say Fast Healing) for 400/level gp. These costs are much more affordable. Especially at earlier levels, the relatively weak treasures you find are more often than not worth more than fast healing. At higher levels, this is not necessarily true. At 20th level, yes, I would rather have a ring of three wishes, a belt of giant's strength +6, and a Luck Blade. The thing is, the same holds true for Vow of Poverty. There are, however, three more things that I am willing to do. 1. I'm willing to increase the number of bonuses from dark gift to 1 +2 bonus/2 levels (+20 to an ability score at 20th level seems pretty appealing although the total bonuses do not exceed bonuses of vow of poverty). 2. I'll grant a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls at 4th level and every 4 levels afterwards, making the attacks count as magical at 4th level. 3. At 20th level, if you possess all gifts and make an additional sacrifice, once per week, I'll let you get a wish, although any violation of your vow for the remainder of the week after this wish slays you instantly. This thing isn't meant to overpower the vow of poverty feat or make playing without items more powerful than playing with items. It is meant to make an itemless villain/evil player a viable option. Edit: the changes have been made.
strenoth 12-05-07, 10:54 AM	Editorial note: so you get WORSE at intimidating good characters? Might want to edit that skill modifier set to not include Intimidate with the skill checks vs good characters. :)
Hsien 12-05-07, 02:55 PM	To be comparable there should be no partial sustained available. Character either maintains the Vow, at full cost, or loses abilities. If I understand how this could work correctly. Maintain Vow at 200gp/lvl a week is minimal cost and then "sacrifice" heavy to get abilities for an adventure. After the adventure the character can then go back to paying the minimum until those abilities are once again needed. Thats not a maintained Vow mechanic, imo
Realms of Chaos 12-06-07, 09:01 AM	Well, I guess that I really shouldn't penalize intimidate checks vs good creatures (in fact, I will give a bonus). As far as the partial vs. completion, you're never truly paying "discount". There is a set price for you to pay, 1/week. What this feat lets you do is go above and beyond this sacrifice to gain additional benefit. You aren't getting less if you don't; you're just getting more if you do. I don't think that this is a bad thing but if anyone truly objects to this possibility, could you give me a suggestion on how to "tighten up" the feat without ruining the power level one way or the other?
Hsien 12-06-07, 11:52 AM	How about an additional scaled increase/level to show an increase in cost as you gain more power. You coud also look at a monthly sacrifice, made on whatever (un) holy day that their otherworldy master requires. Just throwing out numbers... Levels 1-3 = 100 gp per month per level : 3rd = 300 4-6 = 200 gp per month per level : 6th = 1200 7-9 = 300 gp per month per level : 9th = 2700 etc... with 19 and 20 having their own additional progressions
Realms of Chaos 12-06-07, 09:18 PM	What you are suggesting, if I understand properly, is granting all additional boons as part of the regular cost and making that cost less frequent. Of course, if this is right, you are suggesting that a 1st level human with a +2 deflection bonus to their AC, two extra languages, an exchangeable bonus feat, fast healing 1, DR 1/good, Energy resistance 5, Darkvision 60 feet, and the outsider type is not superior to a 1st level human with appropriate magic items for their level (which is usually none or next to none). Furthermore, you think that the low, low price of 100 gp every month is enough to compensate for this. In the long run, your pricing technique might even out but at early levels, it seems like a real bargain. I guess what freaks me out in the long run is the severe price reduction. Using your system (and assuming that the cost raises by 100 at both 19th and 20th level), the price per month at 20th level is a mere 16,000, the minimum maintainance cost of my system for a month without any of the gifts (remember that it is based on a weekly system). As my system is more expensive, however, and it is on a weekly basis, a 20th level character using my system would need to spend 86,000 gp to stay fully charged for a month. That is a whopping 83.3% change in price and so I am a bit reluctant to make the jump. If some others start vouching for your system or if you adress the disparity at earlier levels, I will make the change, however (I'm stubborn, not stupid).
Hsien 12-07-07, 12:38 PM	No, I was just suggestion to have a increasing amount per level as well, rather then a flat 1200/level cost. ...thus the "Just throwing numbers out" notation since that was an easy way to show the scaling concept. Increasing the cost at intervals as the character levels may reflect the progressive cost of maintaining abilities and gaining new ones, plus is more reasonable at lower levels I think. If you want 96k month ([20*4]*1200) to be the high end result; that's fine. But 14,400/month at 3rd level is a bit much. Let's go easy and make it increase at increments of 50 per level Just for example; lets see what that looks like ever 5th level 1 = 200/month ......... math; (1lvl*50gp)*4weeks 5 = 5000/month ....... math; (5*250)*4 10 = 20000/month .......math; (10*500)*4 15 = 45000/month .......math; ( 15*750)*4 20 = 80000/month ........ math; (20*1000)*4) Lvl 20 result is fairly close to the original, while the lower end is more reasonable, imo. Just something to consider
Realms of Chaos 12-13-07, 10:07 AM	I fear you have miscounted something, for to get the maximum possible benefits, its x6, not x4. :P And, for the record, a 3rd level character may very well get on well enough with the base value, 2,400 each month. You seem to run under the assumption that the player with this feat is expected to run continually using the maximum benefits of this feat. This is not the expectation. The expectation is to get along with no (or maybe one or two) benefits going most of the time, using a large horde to gain larger benefits over a short period of time (which is why it is on a weekly basis and not on a monthly basis). In the same way that you don't expect a limited wish every time you make a sacrifice (see BoVD), you don't really expect to gain the full benefits of this feat all of the time. Also, if it still seems too expensive, keep in mind that you don't always need full benefits. If you are in town waiting for a new job, having damage reduction and fast healing is somewhat extra. While fighting through a goblin stronghold, having acid resistance is somewhat superfluous. While crossing the positive energy plane, darkvision is laughable. running under the assumption that the average adventurer is only employed (or directly in danger) 1 or 2 weeks every month, the cost comes to 5,400-8,400 gp a month, not totally unreasonable. Running under the assumption that the character can go without dark resistance and dark sight for a good portion of the time, you are paying even less. To "improve" this feat, I will lower the restriction, making magic items the one thing you cannot use (although you still cannot sell, buy, or barter with goods). Edit: I think that I finally understand what you are trying to say, Hsien. By putting the vow's price on a weekly basis, I make it so that players pick and choose what they pay and when, which isn't really in the vow spirit. I think that I'll bump the price to 400/level but move it to a monthly basis. Although it is extremely hard to gain additional benefits at early levels, it evens out as you level up, amounting to 48,000/month at 20th level. Does that sound fair or should I raise the price to 500/level per sacrifice. Although I am okey with placing a montly price, I want it to be a constant one rather than a scaling one. That is the only aspect in which I am adamant.