War Domain and Exotic Weapons [Archive] - Wizards Community

War Domain and Exotic Weapons [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Sledged
02-25-07, 04:09 PM So the War domain's granted power is:Free Martial Weapon Proficiency with deity’s favored weapon (if necessary) and Weapon Focus with the deity’s favored weapon.So a strict reading of this means if the deity's weapon is exotic (or simple, or even improvised), the character still gets Weapon Focus but not Exotic Weapon Proficiency.

Is that actually the case? Would a cleric with a whip (without EWP) gain a +1 to attack in addition to the -4 non-proficient penalty (provided of course that his deity's favored weapon is the whip)? Why or why not?
HellflameArcanite
02-25-07, 05:33 PM I would just forget the whole "Martial" part of the Martial Weapon Proficiency and give them proficiency with the weapon, exotic or martial or even simple.
aelryinth
02-25-07, 07:00 PM The ruling is that they become proficient with the weapon as well as focused in it.

That certainly is no reason to choose a god, just for what weapon they use, is it? A player would neveh, evah, do that...

===Aelryinth
Limousine_Liberal
02-25-07, 07:06 PM The ruling is that they become proficient with the weapon as well as focused in it.

That certainly is no reason to choose a god, just for what weapon they use, is it? A player would neveh, evah, do that...

===Aelryinth

I don't believe in any god that doesn't use a spiked chain or a fullblade.
JiCi
02-25-07, 07:16 PM So the War domain's granted power is:So a strict reading of this means if the deity's weapon is exotic (or simple, or even improvised), the character still gets Weapon Focus but not Exotic Weapon Proficiency.

Is that actually the case? Would a cleric with a whip (without EWP) gain a +1 to attack in addition to the -4 non-proficient penalty (provided of course that his deity's favored weapon is the whip)? Why or why not?The reason why is because some War deities in the PH use martial weapons; it,s also written "if necessary". These days, we can choose a War deity with an exotic weapon, such as a bastard sword or a spiked chain. For the chain, you should grant the cleric Exotic Weapon Proficiency, plain and simple; for the bastard sword, however, the cleric would be able to use it as a martial two-handed weapon, and it will be up to the cleric to choose if he wants to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency in order to use one-handed.
jaelis
02-25-07, 08:16 PM So a strict reading of this means ...

I'd avoid strict readings of the rules, for the most part. It saves a lot of headaches.
runestar
02-25-07, 09:36 PM What god has war domain and favoured weapon: spiked chain?
Worshiping that hero god would simply give you martial weapon prof: bastard sword. You are still proficient with it. What's wrong?:)
Jaxgaret
02-25-07, 11:50 PM A literal reading of the rule gives your character MWP with the weapon; regardless of what table it is in in the PHB, for your character it is considered a Martial weapon that your character has proficiency with.

Look at Weapon Familiarity for racial weapons that state that the weapon is "treated as a Martial weapon" for a corollary situation in the rules.
Limousine_Liberal
02-25-07, 11:58 PM What god has war domain and favoured weapon: spiked chain?

Optimus: the War God of Munchkins
Jaxgaret
02-26-07, 12:55 AM Optimus: the War God of Munchkins

Optimus Prime - Patron Saint of Constructs? :)
cwslyclgh
02-26-07, 01:17 AM I could be wronge, but I do not think that there are any published war gods with exotic favored weapons are there?

(note that the bastard sword and dwarven war axe are special cases as you can have martial weapon profeciency with them as a 2-handed weapons).
jaelis
02-26-07, 06:27 AM Several have the kama.
risner
02-26-07, 12:06 PM My view is it gives Martial Weapon Proficiency if the weapon is considered a Martial weapon.

If the weapon is Simple, you get nothing (but can assume most classes would be proficient already.)

If the weapon is Exotic, you get nothing and need to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency. The power level of the weapon provided via the War domain is a Martial weapon. If you freely sub out an Exotic weapon, you are increasing the power level of the freely granted weapon proficiency.

In other words War domain for a god with an Exotic is a more powerful domain than War domain for a god with a Martial or Simple weapon.
Jaxgaret
02-26-07, 03:57 PM In other words War domain for a god with an Exotic is a more powerful domain than War domain for a god with a Martial or Simple weapon.

Yes.

But hopefully, that god's other domain selection is weaker for it. Meaning that WotC actually took balance into consideration and didn't give in to power creep - yeah right :rolleyes:

Also, it's such a small bonus. It's equivalent to +1 damage, which is worth half of a feat.

"Well, he wasn't overpowered before we gave 'em that extra half-feat; but now, hoo boy, look out!"
Willie the Duck
02-26-07, 04:18 PM Several have the kama.

The kama and access to the war domain? Are we talking WotC published campaign settings?

Sledged, what do you mean by, "Is that actually the case?" No, to my knowledge, there has been no update in the errata that fixes this, but the errata only ever seems to be used to fix actual rules conflicts, not bizaare interactions like this. As to actual mechanics, no you would not get a -4 and a +1 to total -3. Proficiency is a prerequisite for weapon focus, so your focus feat would be inactive until you somehow gained EWP in the weapon.

As to what should happen, I don't know. Certainly if it were ruled that martial proficiency instead was exotic proficiency for war gods with exotic favored weapons, the boards would be inundated with munchkinny homebrew gods with favored weapon bastard sword or spiked chain or fullblade. On the other hand, if a god has whip or kama as their favored weapon, it certainly isn't overpowered to give proficiency and focus in that to their clerics (and in fact favors the flavor over power trend, as a whip has nearly no use and a kama has no advantage except that a monk can is their attack class abilities with it). Rule as you want. Sure the rules are clear, but this is a situation the original game design did not envision.
Jaxgaret
02-26-07, 04:28 PM On the other hand, if a god has whip or kama as their favored weapon, it certainly isn't overpowered to give proficiency and focus in that to their clerics (and in fact favors the flavor over power trend, as a whip has nearly no use

Proficiency in Whips gives proficiency also in Whip-Daggers, which are useful weapons.
BlackFiend
02-26-07, 04:33 PM Remember...a cleric doesn't have to choose a deity. He can be a cleric of principles of war and ________. So remove the deity out of the picture and focus on the facts at hand.

As a DM, I would not grant the free EWP. The feat already gives provisos for a MWP.

Give no more than what is listed. Keeps it simple.
tarkin
02-26-07, 04:45 PM Saying you don't have a god does NOT simplify it.

The books list out the specific weapons you get if you are a cleric of no god, and they are all martial weapons.

Gods do not use exotic weapons as their favored weapon.

Why? War Gods want their 1st level soldiers to use their own weapon.

Non-war Gods do not care about a silly old weapon.
Sledged
02-26-07, 05:09 PM Sledged, what do you mean by, "Is that actually the case?"I was referring to having Weapon Focus without having EWP.No, to my knowledge, there has been no update in the errata that fixes this, but the errata only ever seems to be used to fix actual rules conflicts, not bizaare interactions like this. As to actual mechanics, no you would not get a -4 and a +1 to total -3. Proficiency is a prerequisite for weapon focus, so your focus feat would be inactive until you somehow gained EWP in the weapon.So does that mean 1st-level clerics don't get the benefit of Weapon Focus (regardless of the type of weapon) because they don't meet the BAB prerequisite?
BlackFiend
02-26-07, 05:34 PM Good point, Tarkin. Isn't it listed right there for this purpose?
jaelis
02-26-07, 06:07 PM The kama and access to the war domain? Are we talking WotC published campaign settings?

There's the Mockery in Eberron, and I think there was maybe one in FR too.
crimsonwolf
02-26-07, 07:48 PM What god has war domain and favoured weapon: spiked chain?
Worshiping that hero god would simply give you martial weapon prof: bastard sword. You are still proficient with it. What's wrong?:)

there is either a fire lord god that has a spiked chain .. and there is a giant god that gives you golitath hammer.....
runestar
02-26-07, 09:57 PM Proficiency is a prerequisite for weapon focus, so your focus feat would be inactive until you somehow gained EWP in the weapon.
Nope. Since the weapon focus is a bonus feat, you do not have to meet the prereqs. Think about it - it has a prereq of bab+1, and what is the bab of a 1st lv cleric? Are you saying that a cleric must wait until 2nd lv to benefit from the weapon focus bonus feat?

So a literal reading would net you -3 to hit(-4 from not being proficient, +1 from weapon focus).:)

there is either a fire lord god that has a spiked chain .. and there is a giant god that gives you golitath hammer.....
:uh-huh: Am I that out of touch with new wotc material?:weep:
Willie the Duck
02-27-07, 09:18 PM I'm more than happy with that possibility, but can you point out the text that makes it so?
Sledged
02-28-07, 10:06 PM So barring a reference from the rules, again: do 1st-level clerics not get the benefit of Weapon Focus (regardless of the type of weapon) because they don't meet the BAB prerequisite?
runestar
02-28-07, 10:14 PM I think they would benefit from weapon focus at 1st lv since it is granted as a bonus feat(which should allow them to ignore the prerequisites). It's the same logic as a monk taking all those bonus monk feats he would normally not qualify for so easily.:)
risner
02-28-07, 10:41 PM Bonus feats don't need to meet pre-reqs.

Selected feats must meet pre-reqs.
Zherog
03-01-07, 10:33 AM So barring a reference from the rules, again: do 1st-level clerics not get the benefit of Weapon Focus (regardless of the type of weapon) because they don't meet the BAB prerequisite?

Yes, and here's a rules reference (that vaguely applies):

Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B. Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat. If you wish to customize the creature with new feats, you can reassign its other feats, but not its bonus feats. A creature cannot have a feat that is not a bonus feat unless it has the feat’s prerequisites.

Yes, it's specifically talking about monster entries that include the cute little superscript B after feats. But the cleric's war domain specifically grants it's feats as bonus feats, so it would seem to apply. And as far as I know, that's the only place in the books that mentions it (and I had to search another message board where I know this came up before to find the quote - supposedly the same quote is in the SRD, but I couldn't locate it).

edit: and for "evidence" that the Weapon Focus feat from the War domain is a bonus feat, the half-fiend cleric in the MM makes a good example.

Note: the above "research" was performed by FrankTrollman on another message board. I don't feel right not providing him props, since I totally swipped it. ;)
Merestil Haye
03-01-07, 12:11 PM I'm more than happy with that possibility, but can you point out the text that makes it so?A simple question for you.

Can a single-class Monk use Stunning Fist before reaching 12th level? Yes or no?

The general principle is that if a creature receives a bonus feat from a racial or class feature, it does not have to meet the prerequisites unless the feature says it does. Hence Fighters have to meet the prereqs for their bonus feats, but Monks do not have to meet the +8 BAB prereq for Stunning Fist.

The entry in the Monster Manual errata on Weapon Finesse states that prereqs do not apply to bonus feats.Weapon Finesse Feat
Some creatures that have this feat lack the +1 base attack bonus prerequisite. Since bonus feats do not require the creature to fulfill any feat prerequisites (see page 301 in the Monster Manual), make the Weapon Finesse feat a bonus feat and add an additional feat.Hope that gives you what you ask for.
ravenshrike
03-01-07, 12:17 PM The ruling is that they become proficient with the weapon as well as focused in it.

That certainly is no reason to choose a god, just for what weapon they use, is it? A player would neveh, evah, do that...

===Aelryinth

Unless they pick kelanen, in which case they are proficient with all daggers, crossbows, and swords. Go favored souls of Kelanen FTW! Heh, you could design sword-chucks and be proficient in them.
runestar
03-02-07, 01:38 AM Weapon Finesse Feat
Some creatures that have this feat lack the +1 base attack bonus prerequisite. Since bonus feats do not require the creature to fulfill any feat prerequisites (see page 301 in the Monster Manual), make the Weapon Finesse feat a bonus feat and add an additional feat.
It is funny you should quote that. I noticed that the grig in the MM has the weapon finesse feat, even though it does not qualify for it, and it is clearly not a bonus feat. What would you make of it?:)
Willie the Duck
03-02-07, 02:14 AM A simple question for you.

Can a single-class Monk use Stunning Fist before reaching 12th level? Yes or no?

The general principle is that if a creature receives a bonus feat from a racial or class feature, it does not have to meet the prerequisites unless the feature says it does. Hence Fighters have to meet the prereqs for their bonus feats, but Monks do not have to meet the +8 BAB prereq for Stunning Fist.

The entry in the Monster Manual errata on Weapon Finesse states that prereqs do not apply to bonus feats.Hope that gives you what you ask for.

The good Mr. Zherog was kind enough to point to the relevant peice of text that made this the case. However, please note, that what I ask for is the text which states that bonus feats do not need to meet the standard prereqs. Nothing in your monk example helps at all, until you go back and find out WHY a monk can benefit from the feat without meeting the prereq.
Merestil Haye
03-02-07, 04:22 AM It is funny you should quote that. I noticed that the grig in the MM has the weapon finesse feat, even though it does not qualify for it, and it is clearly not a bonus feat. What would you make of it?:)My quote is from the MM errata. It states that creatures with Weapon Finesse which do not met the prereqs should have WF as a bonus feat, and the creature given another feat in its place. I didn't quote the table for several reasons.

If you check the errata you will see that the Grig is one of those which fall into this category. In short, that the Grig's feat line (by errata) reads

Feats : Stealthy, Weapon FinesseB

And this (with the addition of another bonus feat) is what we find.

The good Mr. Zherog was kind enough to point to the relevant peice of text that made this the case. However, please note, that what I ask for is the text which states that bonus feats do not need to meet the standard prereqs. Nothing in your monk example helps at all, until you go back and find out WHY a monk can benefit from the feat without meeting the prereq.The Monk example was simply the largest discrepancy between the prereqs and the level at which the bonus was handed out that I could think of. If I'd intended it as proof I'd have let it stand alone, instead of going on to cite the MM errata.
runestar
03-02-07, 04:45 AM That explains everything....:embarrass
Sledged
03-02-07, 09:34 AM I was going to suggest that that rule in the MM and the errata only applies to creatures, not characters, but the PHB glossary explicitly defines characters as creatures.
runestar
03-03-07, 12:29 AM Which means that pixies also get weapon finesse as a bonus feat, in addition to dodge...:cheer:
Merestil Haye
03-03-07, 04:46 AM Which means that pixies also get weapon finesse as a bonus feat, in addition to dodge...:cheer:They do.

Their regular feat is Alertness.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sledged 02-25-07, 04:09 PM	So the War domain's granted power is:Free Martial Weapon Proficiency with deity’s favored weapon (if necessary) and Weapon Focus with the deity’s favored weapon.So a strict reading of this means if the deity's weapon is exotic (or simple, or even improvised), the character still gets Weapon Focus but not Exotic Weapon Proficiency. Is that actually the case? Would a cleric with a whip (without EWP) gain a +1 to attack in addition to the -4 non-proficient penalty (provided of course that his deity's favored weapon is the whip)? Why or why not?
HellflameArcanite 02-25-07, 05:33 PM	I would just forget the whole "Martial" part of the Martial Weapon Proficiency and give them proficiency with the weapon, exotic or martial or even simple.
aelryinth 02-25-07, 07:00 PM	The ruling is that they become proficient with the weapon as well as focused in it. That certainly is no reason to choose a god, just for what weapon they use, is it? A player would neveh, evah, do that... ===Aelryinth
Limousine_Liberal 02-25-07, 07:06 PM	The ruling is that they become proficient with the weapon as well as focused in it. That certainly is no reason to choose a god, just for what weapon they use, is it? A player would neveh, evah, do that... ===Aelryinth I don't believe in any god that doesn't use a spiked chain or a fullblade.
JiCi 02-25-07, 07:16 PM	So the War domain's granted power is:So a strict reading of this means if the deity's weapon is exotic (or simple, or even improvised), the character still gets Weapon Focus but not Exotic Weapon Proficiency. Is that actually the case? Would a cleric with a whip (without EWP) gain a +1 to attack in addition to the -4 non-proficient penalty (provided of course that his deity's favored weapon is the whip)? Why or why not?The reason why is because some War deities in the PH use martial weapons; it,s also written "if necessary". These days, we can choose a War deity with an exotic weapon, such as a bastard sword or a spiked chain. For the chain, you should grant the cleric Exotic Weapon Proficiency, plain and simple; for the bastard sword, however, the cleric would be able to use it as a martial two-handed weapon, and it will be up to the cleric to choose if he wants to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency in order to use one-handed.
jaelis 02-25-07, 08:16 PM	So a strict reading of this means ... I'd avoid strict readings of the rules, for the most part. It saves a lot of headaches.
runestar 02-25-07, 09:36 PM	What god has war domain and favoured weapon: spiked chain? Worshiping that hero god would simply give you martial weapon prof: bastard sword. You are still proficient with it. What's wrong?:)
Jaxgaret 02-25-07, 11:50 PM	A literal reading of the rule gives your character MWP with the weapon; regardless of what table it is in in the PHB, for your character it is considered a Martial weapon that your character has proficiency with. Look at Weapon Familiarity for racial weapons that state that the weapon is "treated as a Martial weapon" for a corollary situation in the rules.
Limousine_Liberal 02-25-07, 11:58 PM	What god has war domain and favoured weapon: spiked chain? Optimus: the War God of Munchkins
Jaxgaret 02-26-07, 12:55 AM	Optimus: the War God of Munchkins Optimus Prime - Patron Saint of Constructs? :)
cwslyclgh 02-26-07, 01:17 AM	I could be wronge, but I do not think that there are any published war gods with exotic favored weapons are there? (note that the bastard sword and dwarven war axe are special cases as you can have martial weapon profeciency with them as a 2-handed weapons).
jaelis 02-26-07, 06:27 AM	Several have the kama.
risner 02-26-07, 12:06 PM	My view is it gives Martial Weapon Proficiency if the weapon is considered a Martial weapon. If the weapon is Simple, you get nothing (but can assume most classes would be proficient already.) If the weapon is Exotic, you get nothing and need to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency. The power level of the weapon provided via the War domain is a Martial weapon. If you freely sub out an Exotic weapon, you are increasing the power level of the freely granted weapon proficiency. In other words War domain for a god with an Exotic is a more powerful domain than War domain for a god with a Martial or Simple weapon.
Jaxgaret 02-26-07, 03:57 PM	In other words War domain for a god with an Exotic is a more powerful domain than War domain for a god with a Martial or Simple weapon. Yes. But hopefully, that god's other domain selection is weaker for it. Meaning that WotC actually took balance into consideration and didn't give in to power creep - yeah right :rolleyes: Also, it's such a small bonus. It's equivalent to +1 damage, which is worth half of a feat. "Well, he wasn't overpowered before we gave 'em that extra half-feat; but now, hoo boy, look out!"
Willie the Duck 02-26-07, 04:18 PM	Several have the kama. The kama and access to the war domain? Are we talking WotC published campaign settings? Sledged, what do you mean by, "Is that actually the case?" No, to my knowledge, there has been no update in the errata that fixes this, but the errata only ever seems to be used to fix actual rules conflicts, not bizaare interactions like this. As to actual mechanics, no you would not get a -4 and a +1 to total -3. Proficiency is a prerequisite for weapon focus, so your focus feat would be inactive until you somehow gained EWP in the weapon. As to what should happen, I don't know. Certainly if it were ruled that martial proficiency instead was exotic proficiency for war gods with exotic favored weapons, the boards would be inundated with munchkinny homebrew gods with favored weapon bastard sword or spiked chain or fullblade. On the other hand, if a god has whip or kama as their favored weapon, it certainly isn't overpowered to give proficiency and focus in that to their clerics (and in fact favors the flavor over power trend, as a whip has nearly no use and a kama has no advantage except that a monk can is their attack class abilities with it). Rule as you want. Sure the rules are clear, but this is a situation the original game design did not envision.
Jaxgaret 02-26-07, 04:28 PM	On the other hand, if a god has whip or kama as their favored weapon, it certainly isn't overpowered to give proficiency and focus in that to their clerics (and in fact favors the flavor over power trend, as a whip has nearly no use Proficiency in Whips gives proficiency also in Whip-Daggers, which are useful weapons.
BlackFiend 02-26-07, 04:33 PM	Remember...a cleric doesn't have to choose a deity. He can be a cleric of principles of war and ________. So remove the deity out of the picture and focus on the facts at hand. As a DM, I would not grant the free EWP. The feat already gives provisos for a MWP. Give no more than what is listed. Keeps it simple.
tarkin 02-26-07, 04:45 PM	Saying you don't have a god does NOT simplify it. The books list out the specific weapons you get if you are a cleric of no god, and they are all martial weapons. Gods do not use exotic weapons as their favored weapon. Why? War Gods want their 1st level soldiers to use their own weapon. Non-war Gods do not care about a silly old weapon.
Sledged 02-26-07, 05:09 PM	Sledged, what do you mean by, "Is that actually the case?"I was referring to having Weapon Focus without having EWP.No, to my knowledge, there has been no update in the errata that fixes this, but the errata only ever seems to be used to fix actual rules conflicts, not bizaare interactions like this. As to actual mechanics, no you would not get a -4 and a +1 to total -3. Proficiency is a prerequisite for weapon focus, so your focus feat would be inactive until you somehow gained EWP in the weapon.So does that mean 1st-level clerics don't get the benefit of Weapon Focus (regardless of the type of weapon) because they don't meet the BAB prerequisite?
BlackFiend 02-26-07, 05:34 PM	Good point, Tarkin. Isn't it listed right there for this purpose?
jaelis 02-26-07, 06:07 PM	The kama and access to the war domain? Are we talking WotC published campaign settings? There's the Mockery in Eberron, and I think there was maybe one in FR too.
crimsonwolf 02-26-07, 07:48 PM	What god has war domain and favoured weapon: spiked chain? Worshiping that hero god would simply give you martial weapon prof: bastard sword. You are still proficient with it. What's wrong?:) there is either a fire lord god that has a spiked chain .. and there is a giant god that gives you golitath hammer.....
runestar 02-26-07, 09:57 PM	Proficiency is a prerequisite for weapon focus, so your focus feat would be inactive until you somehow gained EWP in the weapon. Nope. Since the weapon focus is a bonus feat, you do not have to meet the prereqs. Think about it - it has a prereq of bab+1, and what is the bab of a 1st lv cleric? Are you saying that a cleric must wait until 2nd lv to benefit from the weapon focus bonus feat? So a literal reading would net you -3 to hit(-4 from not being proficient, +1 from weapon focus).:) there is either a fire lord god that has a spiked chain .. and there is a giant god that gives you golitath hammer..... :uh-huh: Am I that out of touch with new wotc material?:weep:
Willie the Duck 02-27-07, 09:18 PM	I'm more than happy with that possibility, but can you point out the text that makes it so?
Sledged 02-28-07, 10:06 PM	So barring a reference from the rules, again: do 1st-level clerics not get the benefit of Weapon Focus (regardless of the type of weapon) because they don't meet the BAB prerequisite?
runestar 02-28-07, 10:14 PM	I think they would benefit from weapon focus at 1st lv since it is granted as a bonus feat(which should allow them to ignore the prerequisites). It's the same logic as a monk taking all those bonus monk feats he would normally not qualify for so easily.:)
risner 02-28-07, 10:41 PM	Bonus feats don't need to meet pre-reqs. Selected feats must meet pre-reqs.
Zherog 03-01-07, 10:33 AM	So barring a reference from the rules, again: do 1st-level clerics not get the benefit of Weapon Focus (regardless of the type of weapon) because they don't meet the BAB prerequisite? Yes, and here's a rules reference (that vaguely applies): Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B. Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat. If you wish to customize the creature with new feats, you can reassign its other feats, but not its bonus feats. A creature cannot have a feat that is not a bonus feat unless it has the feat’s prerequisites. Yes, it's specifically talking about monster entries that include the cute little superscript B after feats. But the cleric's war domain specifically grants it's feats as bonus feats, so it would seem to apply. And as far as I know, that's the only place in the books that mentions it (and I had to search another message board where I know this came up before to find the quote - supposedly the same quote is in the SRD, but I couldn't locate it). edit: and for "evidence" that the Weapon Focus feat from the War domain is a bonus feat, the half-fiend cleric in the MM makes a good example. Note: the above "research" was performed by FrankTrollman on another message board. I don't feel right not providing him props, since I totally swipped it. ;)
Merestil Haye 03-01-07, 12:11 PM	I'm more than happy with that possibility, but can you point out the text that makes it so?A simple question for you. Can a single-class Monk use Stunning Fist before reaching 12th level? Yes or no? The general principle is that if a creature receives a bonus feat from a racial or class feature, it does not have to meet the prerequisites unless the feature says it does. Hence Fighters have to meet the prereqs for their bonus feats, but Monks do not have to meet the +8 BAB prereq for Stunning Fist. The entry in the Monster Manual errata on Weapon Finesse states that prereqs do not apply to bonus feats.Weapon Finesse Feat Some creatures that have this feat lack the +1 base attack bonus prerequisite. Since bonus feats do not require the creature to fulfill any feat prerequisites (see page 301 in the Monster Manual), make the Weapon Finesse feat a bonus feat and add an additional feat.Hope that gives you what you ask for.
ravenshrike 03-01-07, 12:17 PM	The ruling is that they become proficient with the weapon as well as focused in it. That certainly is no reason to choose a god, just for what weapon they use, is it? A player would neveh, evah, do that... ===Aelryinth Unless they pick kelanen, in which case they are proficient with all daggers, crossbows, and swords. Go favored souls of Kelanen FTW! Heh, you could design sword-chucks and be proficient in them.
runestar 03-02-07, 01:38 AM	Weapon Finesse Feat Some creatures that have this feat lack the +1 base attack bonus prerequisite. Since bonus feats do not require the creature to fulfill any feat prerequisites (see page 301 in the Monster Manual), make the Weapon Finesse feat a bonus feat and add an additional feat. It is funny you should quote that. I noticed that the grig in the MM has the weapon finesse feat, even though it does not qualify for it, and it is clearly not a bonus feat. What would you make of it?:)
Willie the Duck 03-02-07, 02:14 AM	A simple question for you. Can a single-class Monk use Stunning Fist before reaching 12th level? Yes or no? The general principle is that if a creature receives a bonus feat from a racial or class feature, it does not have to meet the prerequisites unless the feature says it does. Hence Fighters have to meet the prereqs for their bonus feats, but Monks do not have to meet the +8 BAB prereq for Stunning Fist. The entry in the Monster Manual errata on Weapon Finesse states that prereqs do not apply to bonus feats.Hope that gives you what you ask for. The good Mr. Zherog was kind enough to point to the relevant peice of text that made this the case. However, please note, that what I ask for is the text which states that bonus feats do not need to meet the standard prereqs. Nothing in your monk example helps at all, until you go back and find out WHY a monk can benefit from the feat without meeting the prereq.
Merestil Haye 03-02-07, 04:22 AM	It is funny you should quote that. I noticed that the grig in the MM has the weapon finesse feat, even though it does not qualify for it, and it is clearly not a bonus feat. What would you make of it?:)My quote is from the MM errata. It states that creatures with Weapon Finesse which do not met the prereqs should have WF as a bonus feat, and the creature given another feat in its place. I didn't quote the table for several reasons. If you check the errata you will see that the Grig is one of those which fall into this category. In short, that the Grig's feat line (by errata) reads Feats : Stealthy, Weapon FinesseB And this (with the addition of another bonus feat) is what we find. The good Mr. Zherog was kind enough to point to the relevant peice of text that made this the case. However, please note, that what I ask for is the text which states that bonus feats do not need to meet the standard prereqs. Nothing in your monk example helps at all, until you go back and find out WHY a monk can benefit from the feat without meeting the prereq.The Monk example was simply the largest discrepancy between the prereqs and the level at which the bonus was handed out that I could think of. If I'd intended it as proof I'd have let it stand alone, instead of going on to cite the MM errata.
runestar 03-02-07, 04:45 AM	That explains everything....:embarrass
Sledged 03-02-07, 09:34 AM	I was going to suggest that that rule in the MM and the errata only applies to creatures, not characters, but the PHB glossary explicitly defines characters as creatures.
runestar 03-03-07, 12:29 AM	Which means that pixies also get weapon finesse as a bonus feat, in addition to dodge...:cheer:
Merestil Haye 03-03-07, 04:46 AM	Which means that pixies also get weapon finesse as a bonus feat, in addition to dodge...:cheer:They do. Their regular feat is Alertness.