warlock/rogue stacker? [Archive] - Wizards Community

warlock/rogue stacker? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ChaoticAwesome
09-25-07, 08:40 PM there are all those feats that let you stack levels in x with levels in y to determine z. is there one for warlocks to stack with rogues? anywhere?

if there isn't one, how would you write it up, prereqs and all?
ksbsnowowl
09-26-07, 12:44 AM No feat, but the Daggerspell Mage PrC does a decent job.
RobbyPants
09-26-07, 10:41 AM if there isn't one, how would you write it up, prereqs and all?
Are you trying to create a feat to stack rogue and warlock levels for either Sneak Attack or Eldritch Blast? If so, I would only improve one of them. For a base start, I'd do something like this (just a rough idea at this point):

Eldritch Ambush [GENERAL]
Through a combination of your eldritch powers, and your training in stealth and ambushes, you are able to strike others where it hurts the most.
Prerequisites: Eldritch Blast 1d6, Sneak Attack 2d6
Benifit: Your warlock and rogue levels stack for determining how much Sneak Attack damage you would deal. For example, a level 4 warlock/level 3 rogue would deal 4d6 Sneak Attack damage, as a 7th level rogue.

or

Eldritch Stealth [GENERAL]
Through a combination of your eldritch powers, and your training in precision strikes, you are able to better harness the your raw eldritch energy.
Prerequisites: Eldritch Blast 2d6, Sneak Attack 1d6
Benifit: Your warlock and rogue levels stack for determining how much damage your Eldritch Blast deals. For example, a level 3 warlock/level 4 rogue would deal 4d6 Eldritch Blast damage, as a 7th level warlock.

I really couldn't think up any good names for the feats, but basically, the idea is you have to dip at least three levels into a class to get it's abilities to improve in the other class. Again, this is just a rough draft, but I think the basic prinicple is there. I don't think either one is overpowered. While the first feat may increase your Sneak Attack with warlock levels, Eldritch Blast is still a standard action. It might be abusable through Hideous Blow or Eldritch Glaive. The second feat, while it increases your Eldritch Blast through Rogue levels, you lose out on invocations. Either way, I think it's a fair trade-off. Of course, I would only create one of these feats. Having both becomes a bit rediculous! :P
bkdubs123
09-29-07, 07:05 PM Work it like the paladin one which increases only Smite Evil, but if you sneak attack and smite you get a stun effect.

So basically something like Eldritch Ambush, but if you sneak attack with an Eldritch Blast something cool happens. Something like... hmm... this is actually kinda hard... I mean this could always be stun too, but that seems a little powerful. Maybe just a daze effect. Still quite useful.
StevenO
09-29-07, 08:43 PM There is a problem with any feat that would allow Rogue and Warlock levels to stack for either SA or EB and that is how easy and often they get used together. Using that Eldritch Ambusher as an example (Warlock+Rogue stack for SA) you're trading three levels of Warlock for Rogue to get +2d6 SA which can often be used with your EB making those three levels actually increase your net damage. Now that isn't so bad but consider that adding that feat mean for every two additional Warlock levels you take your SA goes up at the same rate as your EB meaning that feat doubles your damage increases. Looking a 20th level a straight rogue or warlock would deal a 10d6 damage attack and taking off three level of one for the other would make that 11d6 but with that Eldtrich Ambush feat you could be looking a a 9d6 EB + 10d6 SA which is effectively TWICE the damage either could do normally.

The Rogue and Warlock already have great synergy and I'd rather not try improving on it.
Mojo_Rat
09-30-07, 12:28 AM It seems to me also that those Feats as presented above would work with blast shape invocations would it not?. So Warlock gets surprise does chain (forget the exact name) and hits every opponent for 20d6 rather than the 10d6 the warlock is balanced around.
elonin
09-30-07, 07:57 AM Why not base it directly on daring outlaw which counts rogue and swashbuckler levels for grace and sneak attack. So I propose:

PRECISION BLAST
prereq sneak attack +2d6 eldrith strike +2d6
feat allows use warlock and rogue levels to determine eldrith strike and sneak attack
Daeva
10-01-07, 08:00 AM no i think its too strong, should concoct some prestige class instead. ill explain.

the rogue/scout one lets rouge levels count for skirmish, and with improved skirmish so thats (using short bow for simplicity) 16D6to one target, and with dex 17 many shot, and greater many shot (req 11 bab FYI), point blank shot, and rapid shot you can peg a guy for 17D6 (using a short elemental bow for easiness) or 19D6 per arrow. BUT its NOT ranged touched, and its -4 to hit second arrow -6 for three ad they will never hit the fourth arrow becuase they will never hit 15 bab. so thats max 57D6 damage at -6 to hit, with 14 bab at 20, and no ranged touch.

the ranger scout one brings it down to 9D6 per target (with 5 feats) but brings the bab up to 19 so arrows can be fired at a whopping -8 to hit for whole 36D6 damage

now both of the above can crit for X3 base damage, and add the mighty bow damage to their attacks so add +3to5 damage to each hit

BUT that takes 6 feats to accomplish and level 14 just to get the BAB required for the scout 12 for the ranger, the warlock hitting 19D6 + 2d6 perhaps with brimstone or making it acidic, and its ranged touch but remember you can only add precision damage to an attack that gets an attack roll however with binding blasts ability to stun each target this can get abusive specifically with eldritch chain (see below)

so

eldritch doom requires no attack roll, so does not qualify for precision damage

Eldritch chain however would allow the sneak attack damage BUT it would be halved so 19D6 to the first and 9 D6 to any secondary target (or 21 and 10 with brimstone/vitriolic) isnt really anything compared to the rouge scout so hitting all 5 targets (easy with a ranged touch at no penalty) you will do 61D6 damage with only one feat (instead of 5) hitting 5 targets, and even hitting only 3 out damaging the ranger assuming he manages to hit, an the scout will rarely hit.

i will again note the absolute requirement of 5(6) feats for a scout/ ranger to get the upper damage with their "gestalt" feat with rather heavy accuracy problems, at lower damage, and coming into the ability at much later levels, and no potential stun ability, and no neat quicken spell like abilities for them.

its simply over powering in comparison to the most similar two "gestalt" feats. MUCH MUCH easier for the warlock to connect with its attacks, much cheaper in resources to get the power, numerous ways to get invisible like effects (darkness + dark seeing race or the sight power at low level, permanent greater invisibility at the higest)

as for a prestige class how about one that requires 2d6 sneak attack or 1d6 and evasion BAB +4 and eldritch blast, grants full warlock blast progression, and sneak attack at 1 4 7 10, at 2 5 and 8 adds 10 feet to precision rnage and lets say continues counting towards warlocks damage reduction and what the hell uncanny dodge somewhere in there lets say 6.

1d6 hp
6+ int in skill points combining the lists.
medium bab
high ref and will save
RobbyPants
10-01-07, 10:45 AM It seems to me also that those Feats as presented above would work with blast shape invocations would it not?. So Warlock gets surprise does chain (forget the exact name) and hits every opponent for 20d6 rather than the 10d6 the warlock is balanced around.
My understanding with Sneak Attack is that it only applies to the initial attack, similar to with Manyshot, so the first attack would get the boost, but not any subsequent attacks.
Daeva
10-01-07, 07:52 PM in 3.5 every attack against a flat footed or flanked opponent get sneak attack damage.

greater many shot allows seperate rolls and specifies precision based damage per arrow.
RobbyPants
10-02-07, 11:30 AM in 3.5 every attack against a flat footed or flanked opponent get sneak attack damage.

greater many shot allows seperate rolls and specifies precision based damage per arrow.
I guess I'd have to look at Eldritch Chain to see how it works. If they are seperate rolls, then I guess it would be applied every attack (assuming they're within 30 feet and denied their Dex bonus to AC).

Manyshot itself won't work with Sneak Attack for more than one shot, but you say that Greater Manyshot has multiple attacks. Which book is that in again?
ksbsnowowl
10-02-07, 01:41 PM Greater Manyshot has multiple attacks. Which book is that in again?XPH. Also in the SRD. It is not a psionic feat, despite its location.
RobbyPants
10-02-07, 03:50 PM XPH. Also in the SRD. It is not a psionic feat, despite its location.
That's right. I knew I'd seen it somewhere other than Complete Warrior.
AtsuiShoto
10-02-07, 06:23 PM Both the Warlock and the Rogue are balanced to have a +1d6/2 lvls advancement in their means of doing damage. By creating a feat to advance both, you end up with +2d6/2 lvls, which is twice what is considered "balanced". Now, there will be times when the two sources of damage are not both applicable, but any character taking advantage of such a feat will be DESIGNED to use them together as often as possible.

Basically, I can't see why such a feat is needed, but I can see a number situations when it could be bad. Ergo, I would never create such a feat. The Ascetic Mage, Daring Warrior, and other such feats exist to make combining two mechanically mis-matched classes a viable idea, in case someone likes the flavor of that combination. The 'lock and the rogue are NOT, however, mis-matched.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ChaoticAwesome 09-25-07, 08:40 PM	there are all those feats that let you stack levels in x with levels in y to determine z. is there one for warlocks to stack with rogues? anywhere? if there isn't one, how would you write it up, prereqs and all?
ksbsnowowl 09-26-07, 12:44 AM	No feat, but the Daggerspell Mage PrC does a decent job.
RobbyPants 09-26-07, 10:41 AM	if there isn't one, how would you write it up, prereqs and all? Are you trying to create a feat to stack rogue and warlock levels for either Sneak Attack or Eldritch Blast? If so, I would only improve one of them. For a base start, I'd do something like this (just a rough idea at this point): Eldritch Ambush [GENERAL] Through a combination of your eldritch powers, and your training in stealth and ambushes, you are able to strike others where it hurts the most. Prerequisites: Eldritch Blast 1d6, Sneak Attack 2d6 Benifit: Your warlock and rogue levels stack for determining how much Sneak Attack damage you would deal. For example, a level 4 warlock/level 3 rogue would deal 4d6 Sneak Attack damage, as a 7th level rogue. or Eldritch Stealth [GENERAL] Through a combination of your eldritch powers, and your training in precision strikes, you are able to better harness the your raw eldritch energy. Prerequisites: Eldritch Blast 2d6, Sneak Attack 1d6 Benifit: Your warlock and rogue levels stack for determining how much damage your Eldritch Blast deals. For example, a level 3 warlock/level 4 rogue would deal 4d6 Eldritch Blast damage, as a 7th level warlock. I really couldn't think up any good names for the feats, but basically, the idea is you have to dip at least three levels into a class to get it's abilities to improve in the other class. Again, this is just a rough draft, but I think the basic prinicple is there. I don't think either one is overpowered. While the first feat may increase your Sneak Attack with warlock levels, Eldritch Blast is still a standard action. It might be abusable through Hideous Blow or Eldritch Glaive. The second feat, while it increases your Eldritch Blast through Rogue levels, you lose out on invocations. Either way, I think it's a fair trade-off. Of course, I would only create one of these feats. Having both becomes a bit rediculous! :P
bkdubs123 09-29-07, 07:05 PM	Work it like the paladin one which increases only Smite Evil, but if you sneak attack and smite you get a stun effect. So basically something like Eldritch Ambush, but if you sneak attack with an Eldritch Blast something cool happens. Something like... hmm... this is actually kinda hard... I mean this could always be stun too, but that seems a little powerful. Maybe just a daze effect. Still quite useful.
StevenO 09-29-07, 08:43 PM	There is a problem with any feat that would allow Rogue and Warlock levels to stack for either SA or EB and that is how easy and often they get used together. Using that Eldritch Ambusher as an example (Warlock+Rogue stack for SA) you're trading three levels of Warlock for Rogue to get +2d6 SA which can often be used with your EB making those three levels actually increase your net damage. Now that isn't so bad but consider that adding that feat mean for every two additional Warlock levels you take your SA goes up at the same rate as your EB meaning that feat doubles your damage increases. Looking a 20th level a straight rogue or warlock would deal a 10d6 damage attack and taking off three level of one for the other would make that 11d6 but with that Eldtrich Ambush feat you could be looking a a 9d6 EB + 10d6 SA which is effectively TWICE the damage either could do normally. The Rogue and Warlock already have great synergy and I'd rather not try improving on it.
Mojo_Rat 09-30-07, 12:28 AM	It seems to me also that those Feats as presented above would work with blast shape invocations would it not?. So Warlock gets surprise does chain (forget the exact name) and hits every opponent for 20d6 rather than the 10d6 the warlock is balanced around.
elonin 09-30-07, 07:57 AM	Why not base it directly on daring outlaw which counts rogue and swashbuckler levels for grace and sneak attack. So I propose: PRECISION BLAST prereq sneak attack +2d6 eldrith strike +2d6 feat allows use warlock and rogue levels to determine eldrith strike and sneak attack
Daeva 10-01-07, 08:00 AM	no i think its too strong, should concoct some prestige class instead. ill explain. the rogue/scout one lets rouge levels count for skirmish, and with improved skirmish so thats (using short bow for simplicity) 16D6to one target, and with dex 17 many shot, and greater many shot (req 11 bab FYI), point blank shot, and rapid shot you can peg a guy for 17D6 (using a short elemental bow for easiness) or 19D6 per arrow. BUT its NOT ranged touched, and its -4 to hit second arrow -6 for three ad they will never hit the fourth arrow becuase they will never hit 15 bab. so thats max 57D6 damage at -6 to hit, with 14 bab at 20, and no ranged touch. the ranger scout one brings it down to 9D6 per target (with 5 feats) but brings the bab up to 19 so arrows can be fired at a whopping -8 to hit for whole 36D6 damage now both of the above can crit for X3 base damage, and add the mighty bow damage to their attacks so add +3to5 damage to each hit BUT that takes 6 feats to accomplish and level 14 just to get the BAB required for the scout 12 for the ranger, the warlock hitting 19D6 + 2d6 perhaps with brimstone or making it acidic, and its ranged touch but remember you can only add precision damage to an attack that gets an attack roll however with binding blasts ability to stun each target this can get abusive specifically with eldritch chain (see below) so eldritch doom requires no attack roll, so does not qualify for precision damage Eldritch chain however would allow the sneak attack damage BUT it would be halved so 19D6 to the first and 9 D6 to any secondary target (or 21 and 10 with brimstone/vitriolic) isnt really anything compared to the rouge scout so hitting all 5 targets (easy with a ranged touch at no penalty) you will do 61D6 damage with only one feat (instead of 5) hitting 5 targets, and even hitting only 3 out damaging the ranger assuming he manages to hit, an the scout will rarely hit. i will again note the absolute requirement of 5(6) feats for a scout/ ranger to get the upper damage with their "gestalt" feat with rather heavy accuracy problems, at lower damage, and coming into the ability at much later levels, and no potential stun ability, and no neat quicken spell like abilities for them. its simply over powering in comparison to the most similar two "gestalt" feats. MUCH MUCH easier for the warlock to connect with its attacks, much cheaper in resources to get the power, numerous ways to get invisible like effects (darkness + dark seeing race or the sight power at low level, permanent greater invisibility at the higest) as for a prestige class how about one that requires 2d6 sneak attack or 1d6 and evasion BAB +4 and eldritch blast, grants full warlock blast progression, and sneak attack at 1 4 7 10, at 2 5 and 8 adds 10 feet to precision rnage and lets say continues counting towards warlocks damage reduction and what the hell uncanny dodge somewhere in there lets say 6. 1d6 hp 6+ int in skill points combining the lists. medium bab high ref and will save
RobbyPants 10-01-07, 10:45 AM	It seems to me also that those Feats as presented above would work with blast shape invocations would it not?. So Warlock gets surprise does chain (forget the exact name) and hits every opponent for 20d6 rather than the 10d6 the warlock is balanced around. My understanding with Sneak Attack is that it only applies to the initial attack, similar to with Manyshot, so the first attack would get the boost, but not any subsequent attacks.
Daeva 10-01-07, 07:52 PM	in 3.5 every attack against a flat footed or flanked opponent get sneak attack damage. greater many shot allows seperate rolls and specifies precision based damage per arrow.
RobbyPants 10-02-07, 11:30 AM	in 3.5 every attack against a flat footed or flanked opponent get sneak attack damage. greater many shot allows seperate rolls and specifies precision based damage per arrow. I guess I'd have to look at Eldritch Chain to see how it works. If they are seperate rolls, then I guess it would be applied every attack (assuming they're within 30 feet and denied their Dex bonus to AC). Manyshot itself won't work with Sneak Attack for more than one shot, but you say that Greater Manyshot has multiple attacks. Which book is that in again?
ksbsnowowl 10-02-07, 01:41 PM	Greater Manyshot has multiple attacks. Which book is that in again?XPH. Also in the SRD. It is not a psionic feat, despite its location.
RobbyPants 10-02-07, 03:50 PM	XPH. Also in the SRD. It is not a psionic feat, despite its location. That's right. I knew I'd seen it somewhere other than Complete Warrior.
AtsuiShoto 10-02-07, 06:23 PM	Both the Warlock and the Rogue are balanced to have a +1d6/2 lvls advancement in their means of doing damage. By creating a feat to advance both, you end up with +2d6/2 lvls, which is twice what is considered "balanced". Now, there will be times when the two sources of damage are not both applicable, but any character taking advantage of such a feat will be DESIGNED to use them together as often as possible. Basically, I can't see why such a feat is needed, but I can see a number situations when it could be bad. Ergo, I would never create such a feat. The Ascetic Mage, Daring Warrior, and other such feats exist to make combining two mechanically mis-matched classes a viable idea, in case someone likes the flavor of that combination. The 'lock and the rogue are NOT, however, mis-matched.