Warrior Mage feats, an experiment [Archive] - Wizards Community

Warrior Mage feats, an experiment [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Etiquette_Gnome
06-30-07, 01:57 AM Arcane Training (General)
Benefits: You gain a +1 bonus to all saves against spells and spell-like effects. Spellcraft is a class skill for you character.

Warrior Mage (General, Fighter)
Prerequisite: 5+ ranks in Spellcraft, Base Attack Bonus equal to or greater than twice the spell level of the chosen spell
Benefit: When you choose this feat, you gain the ability to cast a single spell of your choice, with a spell level equal to or less than half of your BaB. From then on, you may cast this spell as a sorcerer of a caster level equal level to your BaB, without any arcane spell failure. Your save DCs are based off of your Charisma modifier.

The number of times per day you can use this spell-like ability is dependent on both your BaB and the spell-level. You may cast 1st through 3rd level spells a number of times per day equal to half your BaB, 4th through 6th level spells equal to a third of your BaB, and 7th through 9th level spells equal to one-fifth your BaB.

You must still provide any and all components inherent in this spell, including full casting time.
Special: You may take this feat more than once. Each additional time you choose this feat, you much choose a different spell. A fighter may choose this feat as one of his bonus feats for his class.
Tinari
06-30-07, 02:13 AM Wow.

Hmm. Personally, I'd lower the amount of times you can cast the 7th-9th spells. Maybe 1/6th your BAB, so a 20+ BAB means 3 times. Even then, three per day for a pure fighter certainly brings them up quite a bit. Maybe confine it to a specific school such as Transmutation?

I really have little constructive to add to this, except that given the fact I would probably ALWAYS take this as a feat and probably multiple times in a heartbeat means it's too powerful.

Maybe make it where you have to have an ability score high enough to actually get/use the spells? Such as 19 charisma to learn/use your 9th level spells learned via this feat? That would certainly prohibit it more, but with +6 stat items being easy around 20th level, and the ability to get those inherit bonuses as well, that can bring an 8 to 19.
tui
07-03-07, 06:06 PM Arcane Training (General)
Benefits: You gain a +1 bonus to all saves against spells and spell-like effects. Spellcraft is a class skill for you character.
That's probably fine. The closest I can find is Nymph's Kiss, which gives the +1, 1 extra skill point per level, and +2 bonus on Cha-related checks. Effectively you're trading the +2 Cha checks for raising the max ranks of Spellcraft to that of a class-skill. Granted Nymph's Kiss is an Exalted feat, which may have some built-in balancing (RP) factors.. but you could probably get away with this one.

Warrior Mage (General, Fighter)
Prerequisite: 5+ ranks in Spellcraft, Base Attack Bonus equal to or greater than twice the spell level of the chosen spell
Benefit: When you choose this feat, you gain the ability to cast a single spell of your choice, with a spell level equal to or less than half of your BaB. From then on, you may cast this spell as a sorcerer of a caster level equal level to your BaB, without any arcane spell failure. Your save DCs are based off of your Charisma modifier.

The number of times per day you can use this spell-like ability is dependent on both your BaB and the spell-level. You may cast 1st through 3rd level spells a number of times per day equal to half your BaB, 4th through 6th level spells equal to a third of your BaB, and 7th through 9th level spells equal to one-fifth your BaB.
Special: You may take this feat more than once. Each additional time you choose this feat, you much choose a different spell. A fighter may choose this feat as one of his bonus feats for his class.

Wow! So a 20th level character with full BAB can take this feat, and cast a single 9th level spell 4/day??

A 6th level character can cast a 3rd level spell 2/day?

That is totally broken. Way overpowered.

Besides the actual power of being able to cast the spells, many PrCs have prerequisites that you be able to cast spells of a particular level; this would make it too easy to qualify. Even look at Archmage: As a fighter you can qualify by 15th level.. just enough time to fit all 5 Archmage levels in. You just take Education at 1st level, making Knowledge (Arcane) a class skill, take your Arcane Training feat at low levels, the Skill Focus and 2x Spell Focus feats at 3rd, 6th, and 9th level (or backup 1 step if Human)... then at level 10 start taking Warrior Mage for each feat you get for a level 5+ spell in a different school. So that's your feats at levels 10, 12, 12, 14, 15. And puff! you can take levels in Archmage.

I picked Archmage as an example because if its rather significant entry requirements just to show that even that one can be done; there are plenty of other PrCs that don't have as high requirements that this feat would allow early (or unbalanced) entry into.
Etiquette_Gnome
07-03-07, 10:19 PM I'd say that I'm trading the extra skill point per level from Nymph's Kiss for the Spellcraft conversion to a class skill (no choice, no extra skill points, but ignores class-skill limits), not the bonus on Charisma checks. This makes Nymph's Kiss better, since it has more or less the same stuff AND the bonus to Charisma checks.

And what would be the overpowered aspect of a fighter getting levels in Archmage? It's not like the class would have any caster levels to support the PrC's abilities (no spell slots to sacrifice), or any ability for that matter except entry.

As for overpowered, how? Even were a fighter to take the spellcasting feat his entire progression, he would end up with (noticeably) fewer spells per day with less flexibility than a sorcerer, and not even have the appropriate class skills for the job (no concentration, knowledges, etc).

And a 6th level character that can cast a third level spell 2/day is totally broken? Wow, how do you ever let a wizard/cleric/sorcerer/druid into your party? They have the class abilities/skills to support it, lower level spells, & much greater flexibility.

I'll need to edit this to clarify that you still need to pay for the various components.

My current concern is the lack of proper scaling, since the ability to cast a 1st level spell a few times a day at level 15 is almost a wasted feat (insignificant gold cost for that level). I'm contemplating switching the casting feat I've made right now for something roughly akin to granting an entire domain (BAB = CL, each spell unlocked when BAB = 2*SL), allowing each spell on the list to be cast once per day.
tui
07-04-07, 01:49 PM The closest thing I can think of to compare Warrior Mage to is Martial Study from ToB. That allows a fighter to select a Maneuver to use once/encounter. But their Initiator Level is 1/2 their character levels. So that means a 20th level fighter taking the feat could access a 5th level Maneuver.

Granted they can use in an unlimited number of times per day, but only once/encounter. I think that balances fairly well with number of times you can use the spells in your feat (6 times for a level 5 spell), with perhaps a slight lean in power towards your feat.

5th level maneuvers can be pretty nifty... Dragon's Flame, Doom Charge, Pouncing Charge, etc.

But compare those 5th level maneuvers (the best you can get without Martial Adept levels), to 9th level spells (the best you can get with your feat):

Would you rather have Dragon's Flame 1/encounter or Meteor Swarm 4/day?
Doom Charge, or Wail of the Banshees?
Pouncing Charge, or Time Stop?

I think it is totally obvious that your feat is MUCH better than Martial Study. How do you reconcile that?

[Additionally the maneuvers also have prerequisite maneuvers that have to be met, so you generally can't just cherry pick any 5th level maneuver.]

Is there any other existing feats that I'm not thinking of that you can compare yours to, which might compare more favorably?
Etiquette_Gnome
07-04-07, 02:01 PM I'm not comparing this feat to other sourcebooks, nor will I. This goes extra for material from the Tome of Battle, as I do not have said book. I firmly believe add-ons to a system should not be compared to add-ons, but to the original system, with an eye towards the others to avoid extreme synergy (hard to do with the above).

I'm comparing this to what you could actually do with the core rules. My goal is versatility/power for non-casters, while keeping them from surprassing what's considered by many to be the weakest of casters (sorcerer).
tui
07-04-07, 02:29 PM The importance of comparing new material to existing material is to determine if it is balanced. If you're unwilling to make that comparison, then I don't think I can be of any help to you; sorry.
Etiquette_Gnome
07-04-07, 02:49 PM You seem to misunderstand me. I am comparing my new material to existing material, the core rules. Besides, the ToB is based around an entire new mechanic and class system, so any particular feat is going to be created with its supporting structure in mind. Since I'm not making something that fits within that structure, how can it be properly compared?

Also, your argument on my feat being better than a 5th level maneuver feat can also lead to the conclusion that the 5th level maneuver is the one that's underpowered. How do you reconcile that?

From what I can tell, the above feat line is balanced with the core in that a fighter would benefit the most and still not surpass a sorcerer (assuming full investment). There might be something I'm missing in determining balance, but so far arguments seem to be erring on the side "because it is".
tui
07-04-07, 03:00 PM Well, since the ToB feat is the only thing I can think of that's remotely close to your new feat, and you don't want to go that way, perhaps you could redo it as a full-BAB PrC that gets spellcasting abilities instead of (or in addition to) bonus feats. I'd be more inclined to support that, since it would prevent someone from grabbing the high level spells without any previous investment.
Etiquette_Gnome
07-04-07, 03:52 PM I'm not terribly interested in making a PrC, as it would require more work. I'm almost certain opinions will be similar to that I'm seeing for this feat. A PrC along my feat's philosophy would grant spellcasting on par with a caster a couple levels below their character level.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Etiquette_Gnome 06-30-07, 01:57 AM	Arcane Training (General) Benefits: You gain a +1 bonus to all saves against spells and spell-like effects. Spellcraft is a class skill for you character. Warrior Mage (General, Fighter) Prerequisite: 5+ ranks in Spellcraft, Base Attack Bonus equal to or greater than twice the spell level of the chosen spell Benefit: When you choose this feat, you gain the ability to cast a single spell of your choice, with a spell level equal to or less than half of your BaB. From then on, you may cast this spell as a sorcerer of a caster level equal level to your BaB, without any arcane spell failure. Your save DCs are based off of your Charisma modifier. The number of times per day you can use this spell-like ability is dependent on both your BaB and the spell-level. You may cast 1st through 3rd level spells a number of times per day equal to half your BaB, 4th through 6th level spells equal to a third of your BaB, and 7th through 9th level spells equal to one-fifth your BaB. You must still provide any and all components inherent in this spell, including full casting time. Special: You may take this feat more than once. Each additional time you choose this feat, you much choose a different spell. A fighter may choose this feat as one of his bonus feats for his class.
Tinari 06-30-07, 02:13 AM	Wow. Hmm. Personally, I'd lower the amount of times you can cast the 7th-9th spells. Maybe 1/6th your BAB, so a 20+ BAB means 3 times. Even then, three per day for a pure fighter certainly brings them up quite a bit. Maybe confine it to a specific school such as Transmutation? I really have little constructive to add to this, except that given the fact I would probably ALWAYS take this as a feat and probably multiple times in a heartbeat means it's too powerful. Maybe make it where you have to have an ability score high enough to actually get/use the spells? Such as 19 charisma to learn/use your 9th level spells learned via this feat? That would certainly prohibit it more, but with +6 stat items being easy around 20th level, and the ability to get those inherit bonuses as well, that can bring an 8 to 19.
tui 07-03-07, 06:06 PM	Arcane Training (General) Benefits: You gain a +1 bonus to all saves against spells and spell-like effects. Spellcraft is a class skill for you character. That's probably fine. The closest I can find is Nymph's Kiss, which gives the +1, 1 extra skill point per level, and +2 bonus on Cha-related checks. Effectively you're trading the +2 Cha checks for raising the max ranks of Spellcraft to that of a class-skill. Granted Nymph's Kiss is an Exalted feat, which may have some built-in balancing (RP) factors.. but you could probably get away with this one. Warrior Mage (General, Fighter) Prerequisite: 5+ ranks in Spellcraft, Base Attack Bonus equal to or greater than twice the spell level of the chosen spell Benefit: When you choose this feat, you gain the ability to cast a single spell of your choice, with a spell level equal to or less than half of your BaB. From then on, you may cast this spell as a sorcerer of a caster level equal level to your BaB, without any arcane spell failure. Your save DCs are based off of your Charisma modifier. The number of times per day you can use this spell-like ability is dependent on both your BaB and the spell-level. You may cast 1st through 3rd level spells a number of times per day equal to half your BaB, 4th through 6th level spells equal to a third of your BaB, and 7th through 9th level spells equal to one-fifth your BaB. Special: You may take this feat more than once. Each additional time you choose this feat, you much choose a different spell. A fighter may choose this feat as one of his bonus feats for his class. Wow! So a 20th level character with full BAB can take this feat, and cast a single 9th level spell 4/day?? A 6th level character can cast a 3rd level spell 2/day? That is totally broken. Way overpowered. Besides the actual power of being able to cast the spells, many PrCs have prerequisites that you be able to cast spells of a particular level; this would make it too easy to qualify. Even look at Archmage: As a fighter you can qualify by 15th level.. just enough time to fit all 5 Archmage levels in. You just take Education at 1st level, making Knowledge (Arcane) a class skill, take your Arcane Training feat at low levels, the Skill Focus and 2x Spell Focus feats at 3rd, 6th, and 9th level (or backup 1 step if Human)... then at level 10 start taking Warrior Mage for each feat you get for a level 5+ spell in a different school. So that's your feats at levels 10, 12, 12, 14, 15. And puff! you can take levels in Archmage. I picked Archmage as an example because if its rather significant entry requirements just to show that even that one can be done; there are plenty of other PrCs that don't have as high requirements that this feat would allow early (or unbalanced) entry into.
Etiquette_Gnome 07-03-07, 10:19 PM	I'd say that I'm trading the extra skill point per level from Nymph's Kiss for the Spellcraft conversion to a class skill (no choice, no extra skill points, but ignores class-skill limits), not the bonus on Charisma checks. This makes Nymph's Kiss better, since it has more or less the same stuff AND the bonus to Charisma checks. And what would be the overpowered aspect of a fighter getting levels in Archmage? It's not like the class would have any caster levels to support the PrC's abilities (no spell slots to sacrifice), or any ability for that matter except entry. As for overpowered, how? Even were a fighter to take the spellcasting feat his entire progression, he would end up with (noticeably) fewer spells per day with less flexibility than a sorcerer, and not even have the appropriate class skills for the job (no concentration, knowledges, etc). And a 6th level character that can cast a third level spell 2/day is totally broken? Wow, how do you ever let a wizard/cleric/sorcerer/druid into your party? They have the class abilities/skills to support it, lower level spells, & much greater flexibility. I'll need to edit this to clarify that you still need to pay for the various components. My current concern is the lack of proper scaling, since the ability to cast a 1st level spell a few times a day at level 15 is almost a wasted feat (insignificant gold cost for that level). I'm contemplating switching the casting feat I've made right now for something roughly akin to granting an entire domain (BAB = CL, each spell unlocked when BAB = 2*SL), allowing each spell on the list to be cast once per day.
tui 07-04-07, 01:49 PM	The closest thing I can think of to compare Warrior Mage to is Martial Study from ToB. That allows a fighter to select a Maneuver to use once/encounter. But their Initiator Level is 1/2 their character levels. So that means a 20th level fighter taking the feat could access a 5th level Maneuver. Granted they can use in an unlimited number of times per day, but only once/encounter. I think that balances fairly well with number of times you can use the spells in your feat (6 times for a level 5 spell), with perhaps a slight lean in power towards your feat. 5th level maneuvers can be pretty nifty... Dragon's Flame, Doom Charge, Pouncing Charge, etc. But compare those 5th level maneuvers (the best you can get without Martial Adept levels), to 9th level spells (the best you can get with your feat): Would you rather have Dragon's Flame 1/encounter or Meteor Swarm 4/day? Doom Charge, or Wail of the Banshees? Pouncing Charge, or Time Stop? I think it is totally obvious that your feat is MUCH better than Martial Study. How do you reconcile that? [Additionally the maneuvers also have prerequisite maneuvers that have to be met, so you generally can't just cherry pick any 5th level maneuver.] Is there any other existing feats that I'm not thinking of that you can compare yours to, which might compare more favorably?
Etiquette_Gnome 07-04-07, 02:01 PM	I'm not comparing this feat to other sourcebooks, nor will I. This goes extra for material from the Tome of Battle, as I do not have said book. I firmly believe add-ons to a system should not be compared to add-ons, but to the original system, with an eye towards the others to avoid extreme synergy (hard to do with the above). I'm comparing this to what you could actually do with the core rules. My goal is versatility/power for non-casters, while keeping them from surprassing what's considered by many to be the weakest of casters (sorcerer).
tui 07-04-07, 02:29 PM	The importance of comparing new material to existing material is to determine if it is balanced. If you're unwilling to make that comparison, then I don't think I can be of any help to you; sorry.
Etiquette_Gnome 07-04-07, 02:49 PM	You seem to misunderstand me. I am comparing my new material to existing material, the core rules. Besides, the ToB is based around an entire new mechanic and class system, so any particular feat is going to be created with its supporting structure in mind. Since I'm not making something that fits within that structure, how can it be properly compared? Also, your argument on my feat being better than a 5th level maneuver feat can also lead to the conclusion that the 5th level maneuver is the one that's underpowered. How do you reconcile that? From what I can tell, the above feat line is balanced with the core in that a fighter would benefit the most and still not surpass a sorcerer (assuming full investment). There might be something I'm missing in determining balance, but so far arguments seem to be erring on the side "because it is".
tui 07-04-07, 03:00 PM	Well, since the ToB feat is the only thing I can think of that's remotely close to your new feat, and you don't want to go that way, perhaps you could redo it as a full-BAB PrC that gets spellcasting abilities instead of (or in addition to) bonus feats. I'd be more inclined to support that, since it would prevent someone from grabbing the high level spells without any previous investment.
Etiquette_Gnome 07-04-07, 03:52 PM	I'm not terribly interested in making a PrC, as it would require more work. I'm almost certain opinions will be similar to that I'm seeing for this feat. A PrC along my feat's philosophy would grant spellcasting on par with a caster a couple levels below their character level.