Post/Author/DateTime	Post
valnar 09-26-07, 12:29 AM	Do you think dropping the +1 base attack restriction on Weapon finesse would be too good? Most class that would need it don’t have a +1 at 1st level.
DM Zoc 09-26-07, 01:46 AM	Honestly, I would get rid of the requirement if only to prevent rogues from taking a fighter or ranger dip at level 1. It is one of the few iconic feats, where the build is really impossible to play before you get it. Particularly, I would suggest house-ruling away the pre-requisite because the current penalty is completely ignored by anyone creating characters at level 3 or above, and I detest creating characters above level 1.
deathbane 09-26-07, 02:04 AM	Do you think dropping the +1 base attack restriction on Weapon finesse would be too good? Most class that would need it don’t have a +1 at 1st level. That would depend on the exact reason for dropping it.
AAB 09-26-07, 02:17 AM	That would depend on the exact reason for dropping it. Because many of the classes that would be interested in it do not have a 1st level BAB of +1 (rogue, swordsage, psychic warrior, ninja, scout, etc).
deathbane 09-26-07, 02:26 AM	Because many of the classes that would be interested in it do not have a 1st level BAB of +1 (rogue, swordsage, psychic warrior, ninja, scout, etc). I guess if you are DM you could give it to them. I have thought about getting rid of the feat altogether, and just letting people use their dex with light weapons automatically.
Salla 09-26-07, 02:31 AM	Because many of the classes that would be interested in it do not have a 1st level BAB of +1 (rogue, swordsage, psychic warrior, ninja, scout, etc). On the other hand, all of them have other things they can easily spend that 1st level feat on just as, if not more, useful than Weapon Finesse. Rogue: TWF Swordsage: Adaptive Style Psychic Warrior: You have heavy armor proficiency, put that low score in your DEX and the high score in your STR. Go on, we'll wait. Ninja: TWF Scout: Point Blank Shot (melee scout is hard to get Skirmish to pay off ... ranged scout is much better) And if they dip a level of a +1 BAB class to get weapon finesse at first level, big deal.
AAB 09-26-07, 02:46 AM	Yeah, have fun as a first-level two-weapon fighting rogue. You can't just say "suck it up and start fighter". All levels of play should be fun and you shouldn't be prevented from playing a reasonable character archetype from the beginning. How does that first level of fighter translate for someone who wants to be a stabby rogue? For that first 1000 xp they're going to be exactly that - a fighter.
Salla 09-26-07, 02:51 AM	Yeah, have fun as a first-level two-weapon fighting rogue. You can't just say "suck it up and start fighter". All levels of play should be fun and you shouldn't be prevented from playing a reasonable character archetype from the beginning. How does that first level of fighter translate for someone who wants to be a stabby rogue? For that first 1000 xp they're going to be exactly that - a fighter. And your point is? Fighter 1/Rogue 19 vs Rogue 20 means 'the first rogue spends a little more time with martial skills than the other'. That's it. In terms of what the character percieves of himself, he is still very much a rogue. He just has better weapon and armor skills than the next guy.
AAB 09-26-07, 03:12 AM	Yes, that is true at level 20. What about level 1? Why can't he play a viable rogue character from first level? A lot of games don't start at 3rd or 5th or 10th level - they start at the beginning. The player is basically being prevented from playing the character he wants for 5% of the game, assuming they even make it to 20.
Salla 09-26-07, 03:23 AM	Yes, that is true at level 20. What about level 1? Why can't he play a viable rogue character from first level? A lot of games don't start at 3rd or 5th or 10th level - they start at the beginning. The player is basically being prevented from playing the character he wants for 5% of the game, assuming they even make it to 20. The character wants weapon finesse at level 1. He does this by choosing a BAB +1 class at 1st level. He got what he wanted. He is playing the character he wants. If he's that picky about starting a rogue, he can dip his second level as fighter or swashbuckler.
j3st3r 09-26-07, 04:48 AM	In Unearthed Arcana there's a fighter variant (p58), that gains sneak attack while looses all bonus feats. You can combine that variant with the books earlier fighter variant, the Thug (p51), which gains skill points per level equal to 4 + Int modifier (and has this number ×4 at 1st level). That should be a good starting class for a rogue.
RobbyPants 09-26-07, 11:01 AM	Yeah, have fun as a first-level two-weapon fighting rogue. You can't just say "suck it up and start fighter". All levels of play should be fun and you shouldn't be prevented from playing a reasonable character archetype from the beginning. How does that first level of fighter translate for someone who wants to be a stabby rogue? For that first 1000 xp they're going to be exactly that - a fighter. I have to agree. Assuming you want to take Weapon Finesse in the first place, that probably means your Dex mod is at least two points higher than your Str mod. So, if at first level you have the following: +0 BAB A somewhat inferior Str mod -2 to hit due to TWF. Net attack bonus: probably about +0 or +1, and +2 or +3 when flanking. This is not going to be terribly fun to play at first level. The only reason I'd take TWF at first level rogue (if playing from first level), is more of as an investment for when I hit 3rd level. I imagine 90% or more of my attacks will be single-handed, so as to milk out every possible bonus to hit (by negating that -2 penalty). Once I have Weapon Finesse and TWF, then I'll be running around with two short swords almost all day. :) As to my opinion on the OP's question: I guess it depends on what you want in your game. Obvioulsy, the game designers thought that it was good to limit this feat to the "warrior-types" at first level. If you feel that your game will be improeved by dropping the BAB +1 prereq, then by all means, do it. This is certainly a wonderful application of a "fun trumps rules" house-rule. Will doing so affect the game balance? Yes (but that's what you want, right? ;)). Will doing so break your game? Probably not.
Sunblast 09-26-07, 11:58 AM	Personally, I'm big on game balance, so I know I wouldn't just get rid of the prerequisites on feats simply because it's fun. Otherwise, why not allow improved critical at level 1? My scimitar-wielding dervish would love that. Then again, I made a deal with my DM to exhange my class skill profession for perform, so I'm not one ot talk. I think j3st3r's idea seems right on the mark, though I'd probably take a level of swashbuckler myself. +1 BAB and weapon finesse for free. Not to mention the d10 hit die. That's my kind of rogue. ;-)
j3st3r 09-26-07, 12:26 PM	I think j3st3r's idea seems right on the mark, though I'd probably take a level of swashbuckler myself. +1 BAB and weapon finesse for free. Not to mention the d10 hit die. That's my kind of rogue. ;-) And with the Daring Outlaw feat (CScondrel), 1 lvl of swashbuckler becomes even better choice for a rogue.
Spikes01k 09-26-07, 01:01 PM	In the game I am soon to run I am going to be about dropping the feat entirely and giving as a free-b, I am also contemplating eliminating the weapon restriction. Logically any weapon can be used with finesse, I know I and others have tried. But that is just me.
RobbyPants 09-26-07, 01:02 PM	Personally, I'm big on game balance, so I know I wouldn't just get rid of the prerequisites on feats simply because it's fun. Otherwise, why not allow improved critical at level 1? My scimitar-wielding dervish would love that. Then again, I made a deal with my DM to exhange my class skill profession for perform, so I'm not one ot talk. Well, the Improved Critial argument is a bit of a straw man. With Weapon Finesse, you can attain it at 1st level, as long as you have +1 BAB. Improved Critical at 1st level is completely impossible. It's not a valid comparison, so it does nothing to further the argument. Perhaps something like Weapon Focus (same prereqs) would be a better comparision. Obviously you don't want to drop the "+1 BAB" prereq out of every single feat. I think Weapon Finesse was brought up in this case because most of the classes that get the biggest benifit from it don't have a full BAB advancement, and most classes with a full BAB advancement tend to benifit more from a high Str score. Ranger and swashbuckler (who gets the feat for free) are the only two excpetions I can think of off-hand. I think j3st3r's idea seems right on the mark, though I'd probably take a level of swashbuckler myself. +1 BAB and weapon finesse for free. Not to mention the d10 hit die. That's my kind of rogue. ;-) And with the Daring Outlaw feat (CScondrel), 1 lvl of swashbuckler becomes even better choice for a rogue. Yeah, and if you have Complete Scoundrel, you can have your cake and eat it too (so long as you want to play a rogue :P).
Sunblast 09-26-07, 01:14 PM	Well, the Improved Critial argument is a bit of a straw man. With Weapon Finesse, you can attain it at 1st level, as long as you have +1 BAB. Improved Critical at 1st level is completely impossible. It's not a valid comparison, so it does nothing to further the argument. All right, then. How about a 8th level rogue? The rogue wanting to weapon finesse a rapier will probably want improved critical, too. Would you give it to him at level 8 instead of at level 11? I think it follows the same logic, really. Is that a better comparison? :)
dndfencer 09-26-07, 01:48 PM	With daring outlaw rogues have no excuse not to take a level in swashbuckler. Especially if they are playing traditional rogues. Robby pants, just so you know, you cannot wield two weapons and use weapon finesse (the feat says so). Also, weapon finesse has 2 MAJOR flaws 1. You still must apply str to damage so high str is still incredibly useful if not absolutely mandatory. 2. You can't use TWF or THF (and the exotic weapon master) to get to apply any type of dmg more then once per attack you are given on a full attack round. So, as flavourful as weapon finesse is, it comes of pretty useless. Unless there is some really good reason to use dex rather than str AND you have some way to deal the damage, weapon finesse is not great. I can see why one might prefer to use dex for as much as possible (AC, Ref saves, skills) because it is already so useful but there is no way to pump out enough damage for it to be worth while. Also, even if WotC did make some way for weapon finesse to pump out more damage, that would mean that having a high dex would make you invincible in almost every way. All you would need is Fort and Will save boosters and you'd be set.
DM Zoc 09-26-07, 01:55 PM	In the game I am soon to run I am going to be about dropping the feat entirely and giving as a free-b, I am also contemplating eliminating the weapon restriction. Logically any weapon can be used with finesse, I know I and others have tried. But that is just me. I would like to see you finesse a sledgehammer through the joints and holes in a suit of plate armor, rather than trying to strike hard enough to injure someone through the plate. Logically, dexterity should be the stat to make sure you hit with any weapon, but that only makes sense if armor reduces the force of the blow instead of making it less likely to get through. I've toyed with a house rule that strength bonus cannot apply more to your attack roll than your opponent gains in total from armor, shield, deflection, and natural armor bonuses. (And dexterity cannot increase your attack roll by any more than 10 + your opponent's dodge, dexterity, insight, and unnamed bonuses to AC.) Robby pants, just so you know, you cannot wield two weapons and use weapon finesse (the feat says so). Massively, massively incorrect. Most rogues use two-weapon fighting while weapon finesse-ing short sword, or a rapier and a short sword, or a rapier and a dagger. Check the feat again (I know I just did).
Sunblast 09-26-07, 01:56 PM	With daring outlaw rogues have no excuse not to take a level in swashbuckler. Especially if they are playing traditional rogues. Robby pants, just so you know, you cannot wield two weapons and use weapon finesse (the feat says so). Which feat, weapon finesse or two weapon fighting? Either way, you are mistaken. [QUOTE=dndfencer;13911418]Also, weapon finesse has 2 MAJOR flaws 1. You still must apply str to damage so high str is still incredibly useful if not absolutely mandatory. 2. You can't use TWF or THF (and the exotic weapon master) to get to apply any type of dmg more then once per attack you are given on a full attack round. So, as flavourful as weapon finesse is, it comes of pretty useless. Unless there is some really good reason to use dex rather than str AND you have some way to deal the damage, weapon finesse is not great. I can see why one might prefer to use dex for as much as possible (AC, Ref saves, skills) because it is already so useful but there is no way to pump out enough damage for it to be worth while. Also, even if WotC did make some way for weapon finesse to pump out more damage, that would mean that having a high dex would make you invincible in almost every way. All you would need is Fort and Will save boosters and you'd be set. And if you're a rogue? Sure you don't have much of a STR bonus to add to damage, but with a good dex you can have a nice AC and good accuracy with your finessable weapon. So, where's the damage? Sneak attack.
RobbyPants 09-26-07, 02:34 PM	Robby pants, just so you know, you cannot wield two weapons and use weapon finesse (the feat says so). Where does it say that? Per the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#weaponFinesse): Weapon Finesse [General] Prerequisite Base attack bonus +1. Benefit With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls. Special A fighter may select Weapon Finesse as one of his fighter bonus feats. Natural weapons are always considered light weapons. 1. You still must apply str to damage so high str is still incredibly useful if not absolutely mandatory. While it will certainly help having that extra Str damage to your attacks, a Sneak Attacking rogue will find that most of his damage comes from Sneak Attack by even 5th level. As his level increases, it will do proportionally more and more damage. Pretty soon, that Str mod to damage won't even be noticed. I would hardly call it mandetory. All right, then. How about a 8th level rogue? The rogue wanting to weapon finesse a rapier will probably want improved critical, too. Would you give it to him at level 8 instead of at level 11? I think it follows the same logic, really. Is that a better comparison? :) You're right and I do see your point. And as mentioned by you and j3st3r, Daring Outlaw fixes most of this problem, at least as far as rogues are concerned. It just takes a while to kick in.
StevenO 09-26-07, 07:48 PM	Do you think dropping the +1 base attack restriction on Weapon finesse would be too good? Most class that would need it don’t have a +1 at 1st level. Yes, I think dropping the +1 BAB requirement is too good. Third level shouldn't be too far away but if you let all those classes that "need" finesse at first level when they have a BAB +0 they may be dealing more damage that a fighter while enjoying the many other benefits a high DEX brings. Of course there are those who think dropping the BAB requirement doesn't go far enough and want to hand finesse out as an effectively free feat. Giving it away is far worse that just dropping the BAB requirement because the warrior types usually don't benefit much from this "combat" feat while the other character types can enjoy its use. Giving Finesse away for free would mean it isn't unlikely to get a rogue with TWF that outdamages a fighter.
ToastedAmphibian 09-26-07, 08:27 PM	In the game I am soon to run I am going to be about dropping the feat entirely and giving as a free-b, I am also contemplating eliminating the weapon restriction. Logically any weapon can be used with finesse, I know I and others have tried. But that is just me. Any weapon can be used with finess? Mabey im just closed minded, but i have trouble seeing someone take a maul, and deftly manuever it in such a way that it seriously hurts someone in full plate withought using raw strength. As far as i know, the typical strategy when trying to hit someone with a large hammer is to move it through teh general area they occupy as quickly as possible, so that they cant get out of the way efectivly. Its not quite teh same skill set as trying to poke a rapier through teh seems of someones armor at an unexpected angle.
AAB 09-26-07, 10:55 PM	Yes, I think dropping the +1 BAB requirement is too good. Third level shouldn't be too far away but if you let all those classes that "need" finesse at first level when they have a BAB +0 they may be dealing more damage that a fighter while enjoying the many other benefits a high DEX brings. Of course there are those who think dropping the BAB requirement doesn't go far enough and want to hand finesse out as an effectively free feat. Giving it away is far worse that just dropping the BAB requirement because the warrior types usually don't benefit much from this "combat" feat while the other character types can enjoy its use. Giving Finesse away for free would mean it isn't unlikely to get a rogue with TWF that outdamages a fighter. First level rogue with Weapon Finesse (even though he can't get it) +2 attack bonus (15 dex), 1d6 +1d6 damage (sometimes) +1 (str 13). Average = 8 First level fighter with greatsword +3 attack bonus (15 str), 2d6+3 damage. Average = 10 So the fighter has +1 better to hit and deals an average of 2 more damage while also spending one less feat than the rogue. The fighter can then pick up weapon focus and power attack. Let's say they're both humans. The fighter also picks up some meaningless feat that doesn't matter at this point. Let's say the rogue (being the obvious choice for a rogue who "wants to outdamage the fighter") picks up Two-Weapon Fighting. Now the Rogue has 2 attacks at +0 to hit, dealing an average of 8 damage with each (although I doubt he'll hit). The Fighter has 1 wimpy attack at +4, dealing 10 damage on average, or one attack at +3 (still much better than the rogue) to deal 12 average damage. Tell me how the rogue wins.
1 ton ghost 09-26-07, 11:19 PM	"if it ain't broke don't fix it." same reason Quick Draw is +1 BAB i believe. major advantage...at low lvl, specifically 1st. -big Dex'y rogue w/ Finesee is as good if not better than elite stat (DMG) Ftr and his melee cutter numerically...the Ftr has more HP/HD, that's why the rogue is expected to "improvise", ie)Hide, sneak, flank, anything to make the environment/scenario influence his roll from the invis +2 bonus to the flank's, etc. that's why they give you Tumble, Disguise, Bluff and the like to facilitate those ends. Most Full BAB's are hack n' slash and deviate from attack norms by attack modes, Bull Rush, Trip, Grapple, etc. for example. ideally, a rogue is gonna' go for the SA (which can be as good or better than a choice grapple), he's just gotta' sleaze past the bouncers, lie to the cops, look like a guard, tumble past 'enemy x', to do it.
AAB 09-26-07, 11:26 PM	major advantage...at low lvl, specifically 1st. -big Dex'y rogue w/ Finesee is as good if not better than elite stat (DMG) Ftr and his melee cutter numerically... Did you pay attention to what I said just before you? In no way is a first level rogue going to be numerically superior to a fighter.
Spikes01k 09-26-07, 11:28 PM	Any weapon can be used with finess? Mabey im just closed minded, but i have trouble seeing someone take a maul, and deftly manuever it in such a way that it seriously hurts someone in full plate withought using raw strength. As far as i know, the typical strategy when trying to hit someone with a large hammer is to move it through teh general area they occupy as quickly as possible, so that they cant get out of the way efectivly. Its not quite teh same skill set as trying to poke a rapier through teh seems of someones armor at an unexpected angle. Its all in the style you learn, Martial arts teaches you that.
1 ton ghost 09-27-07, 12:17 AM	Did you pay attention to what I said just before you? In no way is a first level rogue going to be numerically superior to a fighter. sorry i wasn't paying attention...;) i try and stick to the OP and gloss over the secondary/tertiary. and yeah, a rogue (with a brain & motivation) can outclass a Ftr @ 1st assuming he doesn't just fall back on +/- hack/slash
StevenO 09-27-07, 12:22 AM	First level rogue with Weapon Finesse (even though he can't get it) +2 attack bonus (15 dex), 1d6 +1d6 damage (sometimes) +1 (str 13). Average = 8 First level fighter with greatsword +3 attack bonus (15 str), 2d6+3 damage. Average = 10 So the fighter has +1 better to hit and deals an average of 2 more damage while also spending one less feat than the rogue. The fighter can then pick up weapon focus and power attack. Let's say they're both humans. The fighter also picks up some meaningless feat that doesn't matter at this point. Let's say the rogue (being the obvious choice for a rogue who "wants to outdamage the fighter") picks up Two-Weapon Fighting. Now the Rogue has 2 attacks at +0 to hit, dealing an average of 8 damage with each (although I doubt he'll hit). The Fighter has 1 wimpy attack at +4, dealing 10 damage on average, or one attack at +3 (still much better than the rogue) to deal 12 average damage. Tell me how the rogue wins. The rogue wins because it is: 1. More likely to get in a surprise round. 2. More likely to go again before the fighter. 3. Higher DEX may equal higher AC. I'll admit that these could be negated by other feats and equipment. Perhaps using elite array stats is fair for comparison but if point buying a rogue when I'll get finesse for free I'd be very tempted to skip a little on some stats to get that DEX up. Try comparing a HALFLING rogue and fighter and seeing if that makes any difference. I know you could say to do the same using a Half-Orc but to make a half-orcs stats pay out with PB there STR will always be higher than their DEX.
deathbane 09-27-07, 12:30 AM	Its all in the style you learn, Martial arts teaches you that. No. If you are struggling to pick up a heavy weapon there is no way you can finesse it. I would like to see someone swing a mallet as fast, and as many times as I can hit them with a knife, especially if they are weak.
ToastedAmphibian 09-27-07, 05:32 PM	As far as i can tell, there are 4 components to efectivly injuring someone with a weapon. Speed, Power, Competency, and Accuracy. Competency is proficency and specializations, so that dosnt really factor in here. Accuracy is the ability to hit a target, power is how hard you hit the target (And how hard you can "Follow through", and speed determines how easy it is to avoid teh blow. When using weapon finess, you exchange speed and power for accuracy, trying to put it between armor plates or what not instead of trying to power your way straight through teh defences. Withought weapon finess, your ability to hit is determined by yoru speed (Force=MassXAcleration more accleration=faster) and your basic accuracy (BAB) Some things jsut cant be used effctivly in a slow, percise manner. You just cant use an axe as a scalple or a warhammer to cut diamonds (Properly that is, you could smash them uinto random bits if you wanted)
Khadmus 09-27-07, 05:41 PM	Did you pay attention to what I said just before you? In no way is a first level rogue going to be numerically superior to a fighter. Skill points...
j3st3r 09-27-07, 06:02 PM	Skill points... Probably the most obvious reason why taking a rogue at 1st lvl would benefit any build.
elonin 09-30-07, 08:34 AM	If a rogue stands up in the front line like a fighter he's doing something wrong. Besides for first and second level he can easily use a bow for the first two levels which still gives the possibility of sneak attacks.
j3st3r 09-30-07, 10:21 AM	If a rogue stands up in the front line like a fighter he's doing something wrong. Besides for first and second level he can easily use a bow for the first two levels which still gives the possibility of sneak attacks. Feinting in melee benefits rogue the most, so I see no reason why rogues shouldn't get up close & personal.
Grod_The_Giant 09-30-07, 10:57 AM	In the game I am soon to run I am going to be about dropping the feat entirely and giving as a free-b, I am also contemplating eliminating the weapon restriction. Logically any weapon can be used with finesse, I know I and others have tried. But that is just me. I think that having the feat as given be a free-be is fine. Maybe then have the feat with a larger BAB requirement and let it let you apply your Dex mod to damage as well as attack.
StevenO 09-30-07, 02:40 PM	I think that having the feat as given be a free-be is fine. Maybe then have the feat with a larger BAB requirement and let it let you apply your Dex mod to damage as well as attack. Dex to attack for most attacks, Dex to Damage with a feat, plus DEX to AC, Reflex, Inititative, and many skill modifiers. Would there be any reason besides encumbrance for STR? Dex is already an important stat for almost everycharacter, it doesn't need to be made better for no cost.
Ranger REG 10-01-07, 08:22 PM	Do you think dropping the +1 base attack restriction on Weapon finesse would be too good? Most class that would need it don’t have a +1 at 1st level. I'm in favor of replacing the existing prerequisite above with a minimum Dex score (12 or 13, though I prefer 13). I also want proficiency with weapon (particularly exotic weapons that can benefit from Weapon Finesse, like the elven courtblade). It's not that big of a deal since it only affect a small number of qualified weapons, unless someone want Weapon Finesse to apply to ALL weapons.
unusualsuspect 10-02-07, 12:35 AM	Dex to attack for most attacks, Dex to Damage with a feat, plus DEX to AC, Reflex, Inititative, and many skill modifiers. Would there be any reason besides encumbrance for STR? Dex is already an important stat for almost everycharacter, it doesn't need to be made better for no cost. Strength wouldn't require a feat, and gives MORE damage (if you go 2-handed) than the feat provides. Dex (normally) doesn't help you actively trip, or bullrush, or grapple, or overrun. Don't underestimate the importance of high encumbrance. A Chain Shirt is 25 pounds, leaving very little room at 10 strength if you plan on going into battle with light encumbrance. Don't get me started on the Breastplate's 30 pound weight. =P I'm not saying Dex doesn't have a lot going for it, but for some of the tactical options a tank is going to want to use, strength won't be a dumpable stat. A barbarian is still going to focus on HULK SMASH... But I don't see allowing a warrior to be effective while Dex-based but without substantial optimization to necessarily be a bad thing.
BigGus 10-02-07, 08:00 AM	I don't think this will be too dangerous a thing to do. Firstly, it only affects 1st-level characters. Secondly, few classes are likely to want it at first level anyway. Overall effect; 1st-level rogues, ninjas & scouts are slightly more powerful compared to the rest of the world, and as soon as they reach 2nd level the advantage disappears. As RobbyPants says, yes it affects game balance, but no it is not game-breaking. I'd say go ahead and do it if you want to.