Weapon Finesse/Two Weapon Fighting? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Weapon Finesse/Two Weapon Fighting? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
xredmenacex
07-10-07, 01:53 AM If a gnome using a gnome hooked hammer has the weapon finesse feat and he makes a single attack he can't use his dexterity instead of strength for the attack roll because the hammer is a two handed weapon right? Now what if he uses it and makes two attacks: can he use dex for the second attack since it counts as a light weapon?
AAB
07-10-07, 02:01 AM i would suppose so. not a very effective use of a feat, though.
xredmenacex
07-10-07, 02:24 AM Yeah, you're right about it not being particularly effective but it's just something weird that occured to me. Having an off-hand attack with a higher bonus than the first attack doesn't seem right.
jaelis
07-10-07, 08:38 AM It's correct. There are plenty of other ways that can happen too: your off-hand weapon could have a higher enhancment bonus, or you could have weapon focus for it and not your main weapon.
Leilond
07-10-07, 08:41 AM If a gnome using a gnome hooked hammer has the weapon finesse feat and he makes a single attack he can't use his dexterity instead of strength for the attack roll because the hammer is a two handed weapon right? Now what if he uses it and makes two attacks: can he use dex for the second attack since it counts as a light weapon?

Exactly
BW0222
07-10-07, 02:53 PM xredmenacex,

Is there anything preventing the PC from just attacking once using the off-hand end of the weapon? It doesn't do as much damage, but AFAIK, nothing says that in TWF or a double-weapon that you must attack with both ends?
shift244
07-10-07, 08:03 PM Is there anything preventing the PC from just attacking once using the off-hand end of the weapon? It doesn't do as much damage, but AFAIK, nothing says that in TWF or a double-weapon that you must attack with both ends?In order to attack with your "off hand", even with a double weapon, you must declare your "primary hand". In either case, you would take full TWF penalties on the attack. You can omit the roll for the first attack (auto miss) and use only the off-hand attack, but why not just roll and hope it might hit?

Also, when using double weapons, I believe that the off hand is a light weapon only applies when considering TWF penalties. It does not grant you the weapon finesse to the off hand attack.
BW0222
07-10-07, 10:14 PM shift244,

In order to attack with your "off hand", even with a double weapon, you must declare your "primary hand". In either case, you would take full TWF penalties on the attack. You can omit the roll for the first attack (auto miss) and use only the off-hand attack, but why not just roll and hope it might hit?

PHB p143 clears this up. Attacks from BAB must be taken in order of highest to lowest. Those due to TWF you can take in any order. With a double weapon you can strike with either end first. "Primary" does not dictate the order in which attacks may be taken, just the penalties.

Also, when using double weapons, I believe that the off hand is a light weapon only applies when considering TWF penalties. It does not grant you the weapon finesse to the off hand attack.

Agreed. Finesse says "when wielding a light weapon", and p160 only says "These penalties apply as if the off-hand end of the weapon were a light weapon." It doesn't say anything about any other aspect of the weapon being light or treated as light -- i.e. usable in a grapple, finessable, etc.
runestar
07-10-07, 10:45 PM The FAQ begs to differ.

Is a double weapon considered a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon plus a light weapon, for the purposes of feats such as Weapon Finesse and Power Attack? A double weapon can be wielded in two ways, either as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon, or as a single twohanded weapon. Either way, it follows the normal rules for using such weapons.

Wielding as Two Weapons: The primary end (the “onehanded weapon”) adds your Strength modifier to damage, and the secondary end (the “light weapon”) adds one-half your Strength bonus to damage. When using Power Attack, bonus damage applies only to the primary end. If you have Weapon Finesse, you may add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with the secondary end (but not with the primary end).

Wielding as One Weapon: Add one-and-one-half your Strength bonus to damage rolls. When using Power Attack, double the bonus damage granted by the feat. The Sage strongly recommends that characters who wield double weapons record attack and damage values for both methods of use, to speed play.

So when TWFing with a double weapon, it would seem that your off-hand is treated as light for all purposes.
shift244
07-11-07, 03:39 AM PHB p143 clears this up. Attacks from BAB must be taken in order of highest to lowest. Those due to TWF you can take in any order. With a double weapon you can strike with either end first. "Primary" does not dictate the order in which attacks may be taken, just the penalties.Agreed. I was using the "primary" attack goes first only because I find it easier for me to explain when having the case assume attacks go in the order. The main intent was to point out that to benefit from the second head of the weapon as an off hand attack, the other must be defined as the first head for your primary attack. You will be taking TWF penalties regardless, no way around it. In any event, to the OP, you can choose to use either end as your primary attack (as long as you do not use the second end) in any full attack of your choice without TWF penalties.

The FAQ begs to differ.While I cannot bring myself to agree with the quoted rule, I'm not in a position to argue against it either. As an opinion, I choose to ignore this one FAQ answer and stick to the PHB as clear enough with its entry that the second head of a double weapon is considered light for TWF purposes. Full stop.
Leilond
07-11-07, 05:58 AM The FAQ begs to differ.

So when TWFing with a double weapon, it would seem that your off-hand is treated as light for all purposes.

Yes, but to qualify an end as "secondary" you must qualify another hand as "primary". If you attack only with one end, your are (following the faq you quoted) "Wielding as One Weapon" so there isn't any primary and secondary weapon.
Bihlbo
07-11-07, 11:32 AM Yes, but to qualify an end as "secondary" you must qualify another hand as "primary". If you attack only with one end, your are (following the faq you quoted) "Wielding as One Weapon" so there isn't any primary and secondary weapon.

I agree. Even if you were to use another weapon as the primary, such as armor spikes (which are light and can be finessed), the off-hand attack made with a double weapon is still using it as a single weapon, so you don't have a "secondary end" with which to use off-handedly.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
xredmenacex 07-10-07, 01:53 AM	If a gnome using a gnome hooked hammer has the weapon finesse feat and he makes a single attack he can't use his dexterity instead of strength for the attack roll because the hammer is a two handed weapon right? Now what if he uses it and makes two attacks: can he use dex for the second attack since it counts as a light weapon?
AAB 07-10-07, 02:01 AM	i would suppose so. not a very effective use of a feat, though.
xredmenacex 07-10-07, 02:24 AM	Yeah, you're right about it not being particularly effective but it's just something weird that occured to me. Having an off-hand attack with a higher bonus than the first attack doesn't seem right.
jaelis 07-10-07, 08:38 AM	It's correct. There are plenty of other ways that can happen too: your off-hand weapon could have a higher enhancment bonus, or you could have weapon focus for it and not your main weapon.
Leilond 07-10-07, 08:41 AM	If a gnome using a gnome hooked hammer has the weapon finesse feat and he makes a single attack he can't use his dexterity instead of strength for the attack roll because the hammer is a two handed weapon right? Now what if he uses it and makes two attacks: can he use dex for the second attack since it counts as a light weapon? Exactly
BW0222 07-10-07, 02:53 PM	xredmenacex, Is there anything preventing the PC from just attacking once using the off-hand end of the weapon? It doesn't do as much damage, but AFAIK, nothing says that in TWF or a double-weapon that you must attack with both ends?
shift244 07-10-07, 08:03 PM	Is there anything preventing the PC from just attacking once using the off-hand end of the weapon? It doesn't do as much damage, but AFAIK, nothing says that in TWF or a double-weapon that you must attack with both ends?In order to attack with your "off hand", even with a double weapon, you must declare your "primary hand". In either case, you would take full TWF penalties on the attack. You can omit the roll for the first attack (auto miss) and use only the off-hand attack, but why not just roll and hope it might hit? Also, when using double weapons, I believe that the off hand is a light weapon only applies when considering TWF penalties. It does not grant you the weapon finesse to the off hand attack.
BW0222 07-10-07, 10:14 PM	shift244, In order to attack with your "off hand", even with a double weapon, you must declare your "primary hand". In either case, you would take full TWF penalties on the attack. You can omit the roll for the first attack (auto miss) and use only the off-hand attack, but why not just roll and hope it might hit? PHB p143 clears this up. Attacks from BAB must be taken in order of highest to lowest. Those due to TWF you can take in any order. With a double weapon you can strike with either end first. "Primary" does not dictate the order in which attacks may be taken, just the penalties. Also, when using double weapons, I believe that the off hand is a light weapon only applies when considering TWF penalties. It does not grant you the weapon finesse to the off hand attack. Agreed. Finesse says "when wielding a light weapon", and p160 only says "These penalties apply as if the off-hand end of the weapon were a light weapon." It doesn't say anything about any other aspect of the weapon being light or treated as light -- i.e. usable in a grapple, finessable, etc.
runestar 07-10-07, 10:45 PM	The FAQ begs to differ. Is a double weapon considered a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon plus a light weapon, for the purposes of feats such as Weapon Finesse and Power Attack? A double weapon can be wielded in two ways, either as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon, or as a single twohanded weapon. Either way, it follows the normal rules for using such weapons. Wielding as Two Weapons: The primary end (the “onehanded weapon”) adds your Strength modifier to damage, and the secondary end (the “light weapon”) adds one-half your Strength bonus to damage. When using Power Attack, bonus damage applies only to the primary end. If you have Weapon Finesse, you may add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with the secondary end (but not with the primary end). Wielding as One Weapon: Add one-and-one-half your Strength bonus to damage rolls. When using Power Attack, double the bonus damage granted by the feat. The Sage strongly recommends that characters who wield double weapons record attack and damage values for both methods of use, to speed play. So when TWFing with a double weapon, it would seem that your off-hand is treated as light for all purposes.
shift244 07-11-07, 03:39 AM	PHB p143 clears this up. Attacks from BAB must be taken in order of highest to lowest. Those due to TWF you can take in any order. With a double weapon you can strike with either end first. "Primary" does not dictate the order in which attacks may be taken, just the penalties.Agreed. I was using the "primary" attack goes first only because I find it easier for me to explain when having the case assume attacks go in the order. The main intent was to point out that to benefit from the second head of the weapon as an off hand attack, the other must be defined as the first head for your primary attack. You will be taking TWF penalties regardless, no way around it. In any event, to the OP, you can choose to use either end as your primary attack (as long as you do not use the second end) in any full attack of your choice without TWF penalties. The FAQ begs to differ.While I cannot bring myself to agree with the quoted rule, I'm not in a position to argue against it either. As an opinion, I choose to ignore this one FAQ answer and stick to the PHB as clear enough with its entry that the second head of a double weapon is considered light for TWF purposes. Full stop.
Leilond 07-11-07, 05:58 AM	The FAQ begs to differ. So when TWFing with a double weapon, it would seem that your off-hand is treated as light for all purposes. Yes, but to qualify an end as "secondary" you must qualify another hand as "primary". If you attack only with one end, your are (following the faq you quoted) "Wielding as One Weapon" so there isn't any primary and secondary weapon.
Bihlbo 07-11-07, 11:32 AM	Yes, but to qualify an end as "secondary" you must qualify another hand as "primary". If you attack only with one end, your are (following the faq you quoted) "Wielding as One Weapon" so there isn't any primary and secondary weapon. I agree. Even if you were to use another weapon as the primary, such as armor spikes (which are light and can be finessed), the off-hand attack made with a double weapon is still using it as a single weapon, so you don't have a "secondary end" with which to use off-handedly.