Weapon focus on lvl 1 Vs. req. for PrC [Archive] - Wizards Community

Weapon focus on lvl 1 Vs. req. for PrC [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tholin
08-19-07, 11:06 AM A while ago me and my party would have a 1 day campaign on lvl 11. Since I called dibs on the meatshield and the high level, I searched for a fancy PrC. Since you needed a base att bonus of +10, I figured I could for example go 9 lvls Warblade (Tome of Battle) and then take the 10th lvl in the PrC.
However, when I discussed this with one of the more experienced players in the campaign he said that I first needed 10 lvls in something else that would give me a bab of +10 and than take the PrC lvl.
(the point): In my defence I said that for weapon focus you need a bab of +1, still I see examples of where characters have this at first lvl (for instance the sample Warblade in ToB), thus you would need to be lvl 2 before being able to take this feat. On this he had no answer but to check the forums.

This is , frankly, not just about the base att bonus, but all the other req (skills, feats etc) for being able to pick a feat, PrC lvl etc.

Thanks
Ryusage
08-19-07, 11:13 AM I'm tired, so I don't feel like giving the full explanation, but here's the low-down:
if the prerequisite for the prestige class says BAB +10, you need BAB +10 BEFORE entering the prestige class.
if the prerequisite for a feat says prerequisite BAB +1, you need to have BAB +1 at the level that you're taking the feat at.
vegetalss4
08-19-07, 11:29 AM I'm tired, so I don't feel like giving the full explanation, but here's the low-down:
if the prerequisite for the prestige class says BAB +10, you need BAB +10 BEFORE entering the prestige class.
if the prerequisite for a feat says prerequisite BAB +1, you need to have BAB +1 at the level that you're taking the feat at.

hes right even throug he is tired.
Shaggy_Shaggs
08-19-07, 11:32 AM I'm less tired, so I'll explain it. The problem is in the order that level components are added when you gain a level. The steps are as follows.

Choose Class
Base Attack Bonus
Base Save Bonuses
Ability Score
Hit Points
Skill Points
Feats
Spells
Class Features

You must always choose your class before you do anything else for that level-up, so the requirements for the class must all be collected before you become a member of that class. You pick your feats after you adjust your BAB, base saves, abilities and skills though, so you can gain a feat that depends on a certain amount of one or more of those in the same level you meet the requirements.

EDIT: Crap! This means I have to switch levels around on that ranger/horizon walker/rogue/fighter build I've been working on... Craven can't be taken at Rogue 1 because it depends on Sneak Attack which'd be applied after feat selection. :nonono:

Ahh well, them's the breaks.
Rebel581
08-19-07, 12:11 PM Does that mean a Cleric can't take Divine Metamagic at level 1 or any Divine Feats?

That sucks. I guess you just gotta get some "this is useful later" feats. Maybe an Extra Turning or something for the Divine Metamagic.
SilentOne
08-19-07, 12:12 PM I don't think those last few steps are right. It's pick class, do all the stuff for the class, then pick skills and feats.
DeathXI
08-19-07, 12:20 PM Actually I believe it goes

Choose Class
Base Attack Bonus
Base Save Bonuses
Ability Score
Hit Points
Class Features
Spells
Skill Points
Feats

Your way seemed a bit out of wack, especially considering spellcasting is a class feature, so how could you have spells before you obtained the class feature for it? Plus, how else could a Wizard get Scribe Scroll at 1st level as a bonus feat unless he already me the Prerequisite?
Shaggy_Shaggs
08-19-07, 12:21 PM That's right out of the 3.5 PHB, Level Advancement, pages 58-59. Look for yourself. Admittedly, most DMs won't throw a fit if you grab a feat at the same level you get the class feature it depends on, but technically that's not supposed to happen.
Tholin
08-19-07, 12:46 PM Thanks a lot guys
DeathXI
08-19-07, 03:45 PM How odd, so you are right Shaggs. How odd however, that so many Wizards made NPC's don't follow this rule. (Most notable would be wizards & item creation feats)
Khedron
08-19-07, 04:37 PM If you look at other d20 games (I only checked d20 Modern) they give class features as the fourth step (before skills and feats). I wonder if that is a mistake in the PHB, since many NPCs do violate that order.
Shaggy_Shaggs
08-20-07, 01:03 AM If you look at other d20 games (I only checked d20 Modern) they give class features as the fourth step (before skills and feats). I wonder if that is a mistake in the PHB, since many NPCs do violate that order.Wouldn't surprise me at all if it is a mistake. If it's not, well, it's stupid and somewhat self-contradictory. Regardless I try to go by the RAW when possible (even when it is stupid) for portability between games, because I can't count on different DMs having the same house rules, even obvious ones.
Vaelan
08-20-07, 01:18 AM The section on feat prerequisites in the Feats chapter of the PHB explicitly states that you are allowed to take a feat at the same level you gain the prerequisites for it.
Shaggy_Shaggs
08-20-07, 01:25 AM Ah-hah, there's the exception to make sense of the feat selections on NPCs. Thank you, I really wasn't looking forward to rearranging the setup for that character anyway.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tholin 08-19-07, 11:06 AM	A while ago me and my party would have a 1 day campaign on lvl 11. Since I called dibs on the meatshield and the high level, I searched for a fancy PrC. Since you needed a base att bonus of +10, I figured I could for example go 9 lvls Warblade (Tome of Battle) and then take the 10th lvl in the PrC. However, when I discussed this with one of the more experienced players in the campaign he said that I first needed 10 lvls in something else that would give me a bab of +10 and than take the PrC lvl. (the point): In my defence I said that for weapon focus you need a bab of +1, still I see examples of where characters have this at first lvl (for instance the sample Warblade in ToB), thus you would need to be lvl 2 before being able to take this feat. On this he had no answer but to check the forums. This is , frankly, not just about the base att bonus, but all the other req (skills, feats etc) for being able to pick a feat, PrC lvl etc. Thanks
Ryusage 08-19-07, 11:13 AM	I'm tired, so I don't feel like giving the full explanation, but here's the low-down: if the prerequisite for the prestige class says BAB +10, you need BAB +10 BEFORE entering the prestige class. if the prerequisite for a feat says prerequisite BAB +1, you need to have BAB +1 at the level that you're taking the feat at.
vegetalss4 08-19-07, 11:29 AM	I'm tired, so I don't feel like giving the full explanation, but here's the low-down: if the prerequisite for the prestige class says BAB +10, you need BAB +10 BEFORE entering the prestige class. if the prerequisite for a feat says prerequisite BAB +1, you need to have BAB +1 at the level that you're taking the feat at. hes right even throug he is tired.
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-19-07, 11:32 AM	I'm less tired, so I'll explain it. The problem is in the order that level components are added when you gain a level. The steps are as follows. Choose Class Base Attack Bonus Base Save Bonuses Ability Score Hit Points Skill Points Feats Spells Class Features You must always choose your class before you do anything else for that level-up, so the requirements for the class must all be collected before you become a member of that class. You pick your feats after you adjust your BAB, base saves, abilities and skills though, so you can gain a feat that depends on a certain amount of one or more of those in the same level you meet the requirements. EDIT: Crap! This means I have to switch levels around on that ranger/horizon walker/rogue/fighter build I've been working on... Craven can't be taken at Rogue 1 because it depends on Sneak Attack which'd be applied after feat selection. :nonono: Ahh well, them's the breaks.
Rebel581 08-19-07, 12:11 PM	Does that mean a Cleric can't take Divine Metamagic at level 1 or any Divine Feats? That sucks. I guess you just gotta get some "this is useful later" feats. Maybe an Extra Turning or something for the Divine Metamagic.
SilentOne 08-19-07, 12:12 PM	I don't think those last few steps are right. It's pick class, do all the stuff for the class, then pick skills and feats.
DeathXI 08-19-07, 12:20 PM	Actually I believe it goes Choose Class Base Attack Bonus Base Save Bonuses Ability Score Hit Points Class Features Spells Skill Points Feats Your way seemed a bit out of wack, especially considering spellcasting is a class feature, so how could you have spells before you obtained the class feature for it? Plus, how else could a Wizard get Scribe Scroll at 1st level as a bonus feat unless he already me the Prerequisite?
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-19-07, 12:21 PM	That's right out of the 3.5 PHB, Level Advancement, pages 58-59. Look for yourself. Admittedly, most DMs won't throw a fit if you grab a feat at the same level you get the class feature it depends on, but technically that's not supposed to happen.
Tholin 08-19-07, 12:46 PM	Thanks a lot guys
DeathXI 08-19-07, 03:45 PM	How odd, so you are right Shaggs. How odd however, that so many Wizards made NPC's don't follow this rule. (Most notable would be wizards & item creation feats)
Khedron 08-19-07, 04:37 PM	If you look at other d20 games (I only checked d20 Modern) they give class features as the fourth step (before skills and feats). I wonder if that is a mistake in the PHB, since many NPCs do violate that order.
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-20-07, 01:03 AM	If you look at other d20 games (I only checked d20 Modern) they give class features as the fourth step (before skills and feats). I wonder if that is a mistake in the PHB, since many NPCs do violate that order.Wouldn't surprise me at all if it is a mistake. If it's not, well, it's stupid and somewhat self-contradictory. Regardless I try to go by the RAW when possible (even when it is stupid) for portability between games, because I can't count on different DMs having the same house rules, even obvious ones.
Vaelan 08-20-07, 01:18 AM	The section on feat prerequisites in the Feats chapter of the PHB explicitly states that you are allowed to take a feat at the same level you gain the prerequisites for it.
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-20-07, 01:25 AM	Ah-hah, there's the exception to make sense of the feat selections on NPCs. Thank you, I really wasn't looking forward to rearranging the setup for that character anyway.