Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BelainDefenderofJerusalem 05-05-07, 01:08 PM	ive noticed that weapon focus was a little on the weak side so i decided to fix it, so here it is: Weapon Focus [general, fighter] as weapon focus but the +1 bonus on attack applies to your base attack bonus with that weapon EX: a 10th level ranger has a longbow and weapon focus longbow he normally has a base attack of +10/+5 BUT with a longbow he gets +11/+6/+1 this sound fair?
DarkRhystar 05-05-07, 01:20 PM	this sound fair? No. Allowing a feat to increase BAB opens the door for all sorts of shenanigans (early qualification for prestige classes, feats...etc).
Celas Evriamytholin 05-05-07, 03:16 PM	Weapon focus isn't necessarily on the weak or strong side, but it _is_ balanced. It is a prerequisite for many greater feats, like weapon specialisation, for example. Its a feat anyone who spends a bit of extra training with a particular weapon can take to marginally improve their chance to hit. Many melee fighters to improve their swordsmanship or whatnot. +1 attack might not seem like much, but countless times have attacks been missed by 1, or 2, and players say something like "I wish I _had_ cast bless, or taken this feat, or done that..." I agree completely with DarkRhystar on this one. Theres no need to try to fix what isn't broken. The feats in the Player's Handbook are the most basic, most balanced ones you can find. This would disrupt the fabric of the entire universe! Base attack caps at 20, but with this feat, it could go to 21. Simply put, your attacks would be +21/+16/+11/+6/+1. You'd have an extra attack. And what would greater weapon focus do? Give you +1 BAB? Epic weapon focus? I shudder to think.
AtmaWeapon 05-05-07, 03:25 PM	+1 to Attack rolls equates to a 5% better chance to hit. Over the course of an average greatsword-wielding fighter with 18 strength and weapon specialization, that roughly equates to, (Bearing in mind this is the uber-simplified version) Assuming 13 encounters / level. 6 rounds per encounter (1 charge + 5 full attacks) an average of 2.25 attacks/round (5 levels at 1/rd, 5 at 2/rd, etc, 1 round of each encounter charging). Weapon Focus roughly equates to that fighter doing an extra 2,630 damage over the course of his career. Still seem underpowered?
Celas Evriamytholin 05-05-07, 03:29 PM	Nicely put =P
Dazzer 05-05-07, 03:32 PM	Weapon Focus is a great feat, because +1 bonus to attack rolls provides you more than you think! This applies to: Atttacks Attack of Opportunities Critical Confirmations Sundering Weapons/Shields, Opposed Sunder checks on your own weapon Disarming and Opposed Disarming Cushion for Combat Expertise/Power Attack This feat gives you a +1 bonus to all these checks as long as you are wielding your weapon of choice. I see weapon focus as +1 AC most of the time, because I assume the fighter will likely Combat Expertise for 1 if he has it (this is what I see mostly). If he needs more AC, then obviously he'll CE for full, but most of the time Weapon Focusers use their +1 or +2 bonus (GWF) to power attack or CE at essentially no penalty =D. It's good, leave it alone (opinion only, not a flame!)
EvilVegan 05-05-07, 03:51 PM	Its funny. There are 89trillion threads a weak saying that melee combatants are weak. Then you post a very minor change to a common melee combatant feat that makes them slightly better in a linear fashion and you get no positive feedback. In my campaigns weapon focus not only grants +1 BAB, it scales with level, automatically upgrading to specialization at 4th, imp focus at 8th, imp spec at 12th, greater focus at 16th, and greater spec at 20th. This means a 20th level fighter has a 23 BAB and +6 damage with his focus weapon, meaning that yes he gets 5 attacks on a full attack (OH NO!). Only for fighters with fighter levels though. And this progression (and standard BAB) continues through to epic levels. This means that a 40th level fighter has a +46 BAB and +10 to damage (on 11 attacks). HE'S 40th LEVEL! Yes this means you can power attack (or expertise) for slightly more. Yes this means you qualify for PrCs and Feats earlier with the chosen weapon (maybe by a level). Yes this improves the fighter. Yes the fighter needed improvement. Guess what? Spell casters still win. Do it. If you find one type of +1 to hit unbalancing from a different type (which is highly doubtful in actual play), then change it back later. I also recommend scaling fighter feats, but that's not something that's necessary. Some people just fear change, ignore them. :P
BW0222 05-05-07, 03:55 PM	AtmaWeapon. +1 to Attack rolls equates to a 5% better chance to hit. Actually, typically far better. In a typical case, say you have a +3 to attack rolls and need to hit AC 20. You hit with a 17,18,19, or 20. I.e. you hit 20% of the time. Add another +1 from weapon focus and you now hit on a 16..20 or 25% of the time. However, you have a 20% better chance of hitting. If you needed a 20 to hit, you'd weapon focus would give you a 100% better chance of hitting. You hit 5% more overall, but you typically have at least a 10%-100% better chance of hitting. Weapon Focus roughly equates to that fighter doing an extra 2,630 damage over the course of his career. Small point, but that assume he starts at 20th-level and that he is always getting his full attack - which rarely happens. The actual number is a lot less, but still significant. If you factor in critical hits, missed cleaving attempts, wasted attacks on disabled creatures, AoOs, the power attacking, weapon enhancements, etc. it is still likely over a 1,000. Still the overall point is that for folks who rely on hitting in combat, anything which increases the chance of hitting is needed. At low levels, this feat is incredibly powerful because there are few ways to get +1 to hit baring magic. Honestly, a cleric with the war domain is pretty much as good as a fighter until 4th-level with this feat. Even at higher levels (besides being used as a prerequisite for certain feats) it is still incredibly useful since lower BAB attacks are often missing and magical enhancements get progressively more expensive over time. The feat is also remarkably useful on a lot of builds. Fighters, of course. But even rangers either TWF or bows. Barbarians especially when combined with power attack and a two handed weapon. Rogues for those sneak attacks as AC gets harder to hit at higher levels. Weapon focus (unarmed) for monks or (claw) for druids. The war domain for front-line clerics. The feat is just about right. No need to increase its power anymore and certainly no need to mess around with BAB.
EvilVegan 05-05-07, 04:09 PM	+1 to Attack rolls equates to a 5% better chance to hit. Over the course of an average greatsword-wielding fighter with 18 strength and weapon specialization, that roughly equates to, (Bearing in mind this is the uber-simplified version) Assuming 13 encounters / level. 6 rounds per encounter (1 charge + 5 full attacks) an average of 2.25 attacks/round (5 levels at 1/rd, 5 at 2/rd, etc, 1 round of each encounter charging). Weapon Focus roughly equates to that fighter doing an extra 2,630 damage over the course of his career. Still seem underpowered?Yes. Compare it to a wizard using scribe scroll for the entirety of his career. Now compare it to a wizard taking Arcane Disciple. Now compare it to a wizard using it for Sudden Maximize for the entirety of his career. Now compare it to a fighter who's favorite weapon gets sundered.
AtmaWeapon 05-05-07, 05:01 PM	So, your entire argument that Weapon Focus is underpowered is that Wizards tend to be better then fighters at higher level? And also... Good lord man, what the hell do your fighters do with thier other like 6 bonus feats?* * Assuming that, ya know.. they take like max 10 levels in fighter, cause why bother...
runestar 05-05-07, 10:53 PM	This allows a rogue to get that 4th iterative attack or a spellcaster to get that 3rd attack. I personally don't like this change. To me, factors such as bab/saves/skill ranks etc should not be able to be improved save for taking more class lvs. Not that it is too powerful, but it directly violates one of the core tenets of dnd mechanics and should not be allowed on such a whim. I don't mind a universal weapon focus feat applying to all weapons(same for all other feats down the tree). I can allow increasing the bonuses granted. But not the aforementioned suggestion....
DarkRhystar 05-05-07, 11:24 PM	Weapon focus isn't necessarily on the weak or strong side, but it _is_ balanced. It is a prerequisite for many greater feats, like weapon specialisation, for example. That's not good game design. That's a poor excuse for bad game design.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 05-06-07, 12:00 AM	Weapon focus isn't necessarily on the weak or strong side, but it _is_ balanced. It is a prerequisite for many greater feats, like weapon specialisation, for example. Its a feat anyone who spends a bit of extra training with a particular weapon can take to marginally improve their chance to hit. Many melee fighters to improve their swordsmanship or whatnot. +1 attack might not seem like much, but countless times have attacks been missed by 1, or 2, and players say something like "I wish I _had_ cast bless, or taken this feat, or done that..." I agree completely with DarkRhystar on this one. Theres no need to try to fix what isn't broken. The feats in the Player's Handbook are the most basic, most balanced ones you can find. This would disrupt the fabric of the entire universe! Base attack caps at 20, but with this feat, it could go to 21. Simply put, your attacks would be +21/+16/+11/+6/+1. You'd have an extra attack. And what would greater weapon focus do? Give you +1 BAB? Epic weapon focus? I shudder to think. You can never get more than four iterative attacks. So it wouldn't do that.
Tevin Kevlak 05-06-07, 01:25 AM	You can never get more than four iterative attacks. So it wouldn't do that. But why do you only get 4 attacks? Because B.A.B. caps right before you get the 5th. If Weapon Focus increases B.A.B. by 1 you do indeed get 5 attacks. And technically when you say you can never get more than 4 attacks you're quite wrong. Two-Weapon Fighting gives you another attack, the haste spell gives you another attack, Rapid Shot gives you another attack, Flurry of Blows gives you many more attacks, the Speed magic weapon enhancement gives you another attack... the list goes on.
EvilVegan 05-06-07, 09:25 AM	So, your entire argument that Weapon Focus is underpowered is that Wizards tend to be better then fighters at higher level?Yes. Do you have a counter argument or was this just unclear to you? Wizards are better than fighters at high levels. Fighters need a boost to make them "worth it" at high levels. And also... Good lord man, what the hell do your fighters do with thier other like 6 bonus feats?* * Assuming that, ya know.. they take like max 10 levels in fighter, cause why bother... First of all, the scaling of the feats only happens if they take fighter levels (some PrCs increase certain feats as fighter levels, but not all feats) Second, That's only 3 feats (Weapon Spec, Greater focus, Greater Spec. The higher level feats in my chain are "homebrewed") Third, What feats can they take? Well lets see: There are these (which in my campaign ALSO scale with level): Blind-Fight Combat Expertise Improved Disarm Improved Feint Improved Trip Whirlwind Attack Combat Reflexes Dodge Mobility Spring Attack Exotic Weapon Proficiency Improved Critical Improved Initiative Improved Shield Bash Improved Unarmed Strike Deflect Arrows Improved Grapple Snatch Arrows Stunning Fist Mounted Combat Mounted Archery Ride-By Attack Spirited Charge Trample Point Blank Shot Far Shot Precise Shot Rapid Shot Manyshot Shot On The Run Improved Precise Shot Power Attack Cleave Great Cleave Improved Bull Rush Improved Overrun Improved Sunder Quick Draw Rapid Reload Two-Weapon Fighting Two-Weapon Defense Improved Two-Weapon Fighting Greater Two-Weapon Fighting Weapon Finesse And then there are: Close-quarters fighting Defensive strike Greater Two-weapon defense Improved Buckler defense Improved Combat Expertise Improved Mounted Archery Improved Rapid Shot Improved Toughness Improved Two-Weapon Defense Improved Weapon Familiarity Phalanx Fighting Power Critical Prone Attack Ranged Disarm Ranged Pin Ranged Sunder Rapid Stunning Sharp-shooting Shield Charge Shield Slam Weakening Touch Oh and don't forget: Cavalry Charger Combat Brute Formation Expert Giantbane Shocktrooper And how about: Acrobatic Strike Active Shield Defense Adaptable Flanker Agile shield fighter Armor Specialization Battle Dancer Brutal Strike Combat Acrobat Cometary Collision Crossbow Sniper Deadeye Shot Defensive Sweep Fiery Fist Fiery Ki Defense Flay Grenadier Intimidating Strike Ki Blast Lunging Strike Melee Evasion Melee Weapon Mastery Penetrating Shot Ranged Weapon Mastery Robilar's Gambit Shield Sling Shield Specialization Shield Ward Short Haft Spectral Skirmisher Tumbling Feint Two-weapon pounce Two-weapon Rend Versatile Unarmed Strike Vexing Flanker Water Splitting Stone Oh and. . . Combat Focus Combat STability Combat Defense Combat Vigor Combat Awareness Combat Strike And . . . Blood-spiked Charger Combat Cloak Expert Combat Panache Einhander Shadow striker And there are also my custom feats: Rage (and it's chain of feats) Rapid Attack (a la Flurry of Blows, also a chain of feats) Improved Unarmed Strike (scaling unarmed strike feat on par with a monk, with a chain) That's from 3 of my books and a custom list and I really don't feel like pouring through the rest. Hopefully you get the Idea what they would choose with such a wondrous bounty as 3 extra feats.
EvilVegan 05-06-07, 09:36 AM	But why do you only get 4 attacks? Because B.A.B. caps right before you get the 5th. If Weapon Focus increases B.A.B. by 1 you do indeed get 5 attacks. And technically when you say you can never get more than 4 attacks you're quite wrong. Two-Weapon Fighting gives you another attack, the haste spell gives you another attack, Rapid Shot gives you another attack, Flurry of Blows gives you many more attacks, the Speed magic weapon enhancement gives you another attack... the list goes on.And most of those options reduce the accuracy of the attacks. I can build you a fighter that gets 11 attacks very early in his career, a 5th attack (at -20 to hit, btw) at 20th level is nothing to cry about. Thrikreen monk/fighter/dervish w/ haste and proper feats comes to mind. Most of his attacks are at his Primary BAB with penalties, the rest are at his iterative BAB with penalties. A 20th level fighter with a 21 BAB has 1 primary attack, each one after that getting -5 to hit. The 5th attack on a full attack is functionally equivalent to a really well equiped 2nd level commoner.
Thiez 05-06-07, 10:02 AM	And most of those options reduce the accuracy of the attacks. I can build you a fighter that gets 11 attacks very early in his career, a 5th attack (at -20 to hit, btw) at 20th level is nothing to cry about. Thrikreen monk/fighter/dervish w/ haste and proper feats comes to mind. Most of his attacks are at his Primary BAB with penalties, the rest are at his iterative BAB with penalties. A 20th level fighter with a 21 BAB has 1 primary attack, each one after that getting -5 to hit. The 5th attack on a full attack is functionally equivalent to a really well equiped 2nd level commoner. A really well equiped 2nd commoner could wield a staff of the magi and break it. Ignoring wealth by level guidelines can make a second level commoner extremely dangerous, this doesn't mean other characters are weak. It just means you're not applying wealth-by-level.
Merestil Haye 05-06-07, 10:08 AM	But why do you only get 4 attacks? Because B.A.B. caps right before you get the 5th.You only get four attacks because the rules say that four attacks is the maximum number you can have, no matter how high your BAB goes. You could be a 100HD dragon or outsider (which really do have a BAB of 100) and still get only four attacks with manufactured weapons. I found this in the FAQ :How do I know whether a monster gets multiple attacks for a high base attack bonus? Some of the monsters in the Monster Manual have multiple attacks, but others don’t, even with the same base attack bonus. Why doesn’t a great wyrm red dragon get eight bite attacks per round? After all, its base attack bonus is +40. The rules for multiple attacks are different for manufactured weapons (such as swords and bows) and for natural weapons (such as claws and bites). A creature wielding a weapon gets multiple attacks based on its base attack bonus, regardless of whether that creature is a goblin, a giant, or a pit fiend. Regardless of its base attack bonus, a creature never gets more than four attacks with any given weapon purely from its base attack bonus (see the sidebar on page 207 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide)—thus, if a great wyrm red dragon could wield a manufactured weapon, it still could make only four attacks with it as part of a full attack action (at +40/+35/+30/+25).(Emphasis mine.) ETA : The designers took a deliberate decision not to make feats that are more hugely valuable to characters at some levels than they are at others. "+1 BAB" is more valuable to a character with +5 BAB than one with +4, and hugely more so than to a character with +6 BAB. This decision was taken back when 3rd Edition was being designed and playtested, so it's hardly new.
EvilVegan 05-06-07, 11:19 AM	But that doesn't mean it was a good decision. Most feats taken by spellcasters are obviously more powerful at different levels. Additionally, their feats and abilities automatically scale with level, and they scale exponentially. So not only do spellcasters get class abilities that scale with levels, the feats they take are inherently better than those taken by a fighter because they are typically used to modify their scaling class features (metamagic becomes better at higher levels, item creation becomes better at higher levels). Feats for fighters do not scale. Fighters progression is linear. So yes at 5th level a fighter gets a second attack with his focus weapon. Good thing 5th level is a dead level for fighter. A second attack on a full attack at -5 compared to 3rd level spells or +1d6 sneak attack or a new favored enemy or wildshape. It only seems broken, until you compare it to anything else. Granted I'm only considering making it a BAB improvement for fighters and the OP wanted it for every class.
BW0222 05-07-07, 06:10 PM	EvilVegan, Compare it to a wizard using scribe scroll for the entirety of his career. Sure. You need to be a spellcaster to use scribe scroll. Weapon focus works for anyone, including spell casters. But, in terms of damage... AtmaWeapon figures that it weapon focus does a couple of thousands of points extra points of damage over his career. Let's look what it costs a wizard to do the same using scribe scroll... In order to 2,000 extra points of damage with scrolls, using magic missile scrolls it would take 570 scrolls -- 570xp and 7,125gp. Using acid arrows (assuming you hit 75% of the time), it would take 350 scrolls -- 2,100xp and 26,250gp. Using fireballs (assuming 4 creatures per blast and 50% damage due to low saves, fire resistance, SR, etc.) 60 - 900xp and 11,250gp, etc. It appears to average out to something like 1000xp and 10,000gp, and 100 days. Personally, I've never made that many scrolls as a wizard in any campaign - even those insanely combat oriented -- but for pure comparisons assume you did. However, you now have the issue that you could get the exact same benefit by just buying those scrolls. It is not the feat giving you the extra damage... just allowing you to do it at half cost, in exchange for xp loss. With weapon focus you get: 1 feat = 2,000 extra damage. Buy scrolls gets you: 20,000gp = 2,000 extra damage However, all scribe scroll has done is 1 feat + 1,000xp + 10,000gp = 2,000 extra damage or 1 feat + 1,000xp = 10,000gp (if you spend 10,000gp to do 2,000 extra damage) And if the fighter just spend his 10,000gp on better equipment and he'd do even more damage and it wouldn't even cost him XP. Now compare it to a wizard using it for Sudden Maximize for the entirety of his career. Sure. D&D averages 3-4 combats per day, say 12 combat encounters per level, so you can expect say 4 uses of the feat per level or 80 uses. Your best spells average 3.5 points of damage per level and maximize to 6, or an extra 2.5 damage per level. Assuming you could hit four folks and they averge 75% damage (after saves, SR, resistances), you could expect to do 2.5*.75*4*10*80 = 15,000 extra points of damage. So it is many times more powerful than weapon focus. Yes. Agreed. However, it took two feats to get you there. If you pick any two feat combo (such as weapon focus and weapon specialization, or point blank and rapid shot), they too would also likely do tens of thousands of extra damage over a career. Now compare it to a fighter who's favorite weapon gets sundered. Sure. I see sundering maybe one combat if hundred, but lets say one in 50 -- and typically against bows or missile weapons. Considering that it usually provokes, and weapons typically have considerable hardness, are immune due to magical enhancements, etc. So maybe 50 times a fighter would be subjected to having a weapon sundered and maybe 25 times it would actually be sundered and they would need to draw another weapon and lose their full attack for one round out of say ten in the typical combat. At best, maybe that reduces the extra potential of the weapon focus feat by maybe 5 points over that tens of thousands of rounds of combat he'll be in. And we don't tend to worry about stuff like that because any feat can be equally nurfed due to specific combat conditions -- which honestly don't happen that often. How many times does your wizard end up grappled, someone counterspells his maximized spell, silences him, etc. Sure it happens. It just is not frequent enough to affect AtmaWeapon campaign long increase in damage using the feats. AtmaWeapon's rough calculation on weapon focus isn't bad. Over the lifespan of the campaign, it effects are pretty reasonable. If you do the math on most other feats, you won't get much of a difference. It is certainly, on par with most other feats.