Post/Author/DateTime	Post
enygmatic_me 02-25-07, 04:24 AM	One of the most common points that comes up about why fighters are underpowered is their lack of scaling ability. This idea has been floating around for a day or two and, if for no other reason then to get it out of my head, I felt the need to post it here. First, get rid of greater weapon focus and greater weapon specialization. Second, Weapon Specialization is open to everyone (or, at least all "warrior" classes). Weapon Focus Prerequisites: None Chose a weapon the feat applies to. The character gains a +1 to attack rolls for the chosen weapon. SPECIAL: For every 4 levels in the fighter class the character has they gain an additional +1 to attack rolls with the chosen weapon. Weapon Specialization Prerequisites: BAB+4 Chose a weapon the feat applies to. The character gains a +1 to damage rolls for the chosen weapon. SPECIAL: For every 4 levels in the fighter class the character has they gain an additional +1 to damage rolls with the chosen weapon. It's simplistic, and not a complete "fix", but I think the idea has some merit.
TB 02-25-07, 07:12 AM	I like that. But it gives a fighter even more feats, by eliminating two they normally would take. I think high level fighters are quite balanced with other classes... I have a game going that starts at 15th level. Our dwarven defender has an AC of 49. A Ninja that can simply turn ethereal and walk through a wall. Who also has a AC of 38 (no armor!!!) A fighter who swings a Large size greatsword that does 3d6 + 1d6 fire +15 from various modifiers. An he swings 4 times. 34/19/14/9 attack bonuses... not to mention all the feats.... And his will save is still +16. It's all about how you set up a character and how well you play. They classes are balanced as they are. I really don't like giving fighters more feats...
enygmatic_me 02-25-07, 06:06 PM	Considering that the Greater versions where a 3.5 way of trying to give the fighter more appeal in the first place I don't see how this change is really that altering by allowing the fighter to take 2 other feats. The only thing that is really "special" about the fighter at this time is that they can exclusively take a couple of feats that mean little to them at higher levels. If anything, in my opinion, not forcing them to take the Greater versions and allowing them to spend those two feats on taking other feats (like TWF, Power Attack, Cleave/Greater Cleave, etc) just makes the appeal of playing a fighter that much better.
aelryinth 02-25-07, 06:59 PM	Anything is easier if you skip intervening levels and can assemble stuff to play already optimized. It's trying to reach level 15 from level one, and having to deal with each and every situation, that you start learning of the holes in fighter builds, and start trying to plug them. A level 15 fighter still has only 3 attacks. I take it he's levelled? And using a large greatsword is a feat he could have spent elsewhere. -2 Th and +4 dmg from the Power Attack feat he already has would have done more dmg. Dwarven defender has 14 feat equivalents in ten levels, vs 5 for a Fighter; gets a scaling AC bonus; a d12 HD; and has two good saves. It's a very, very bad class to compare to a Fighter, and actually is a hallmark for why the Fighter should be significantly upgraded. heck, in ten levels it gets better DR/- then a barbarian does in 20 levels. ===Aelryinth
Xavon 02-25-07, 08:43 PM	Not bad, but I still think Spec should scale faster than Focus. I would make make Weapon Focus +1 and +1/6 levels (total of +4 at level 18, still much better the WF/GWF and earlier), and make Weapon Spec +2 and +1/5 levels (total of +6 at level 20). That way, you also stagger the levels the bonuses are achieved.
Vaelan 02-26-07, 04:55 AM	Specialization isn't right. It grants 5 damage at best, whereas a Fighter can currently gain +6 through Greater Weapon Specialization and Weapon Mastery.
Xavon 02-26-07, 08:45 PM	+5 for 1 feat > +6 for 3 feats...
paladin2019 02-26-07, 09:09 PM	I don't think Weapon Specialization, even as a gateway feat, is worth the prereqs. I understand the 4th level fighter requirement as a balance issue relating to multiclassing, but I don't think a +2 to damage is worth the wait. And removing Weapon Focus as a prereq and subsuming it isn't perfect either. I have a couple of options I am working. 1) the fighter chooses a number of weapons modified by Weapon Focus equal to his Int modifier (minimum of 1) and gains a +2 to damage. Kind of boring and I'm not really sure I like it anyway. 2) the fighter automatically converts a like number of Weapon Focuses to Weapon Specialization at 4th level. In this version, Weapon Focus is not a prerequisite of Weapon Specialization and Spec subsumes, and does not stack with, Weapon Focus. The 4th level conversion prevents the fighter from having to choose an effectively useless feat or waiting on the enhanced benefits until later in his career. Under this version, Greater Weapon Focus would not exist and Greater Weapon Specialization would potentially lower in required level, again subsuming the former feat. 3) as 2, but the fighter may only convert 1 Weapon Focus. However, Weapon Specialization also scales with level, granting the benefits of Improved Critical and Greater Weapon Specialization when the appropriate prerequisites are met. 4) as 3 except Improved Critical and Greater Weapon become class abilities, with Specialized Critical as the name for the 8th level ability. This requires continuing as a fighter, rather than just the initial 4 levels.
enygmatic_me 02-26-07, 11:09 PM	Specialization isn't right. It grants 5 damage at best, whereas a Fighter can currently gain +6 through Greater Weapon Specialization and Weapon Mastery. It would obviously take some modifications to the prerequisites, but there is nothing stopping this idea of a scaling Weapon Focus/Specialization from being combined with Weapon Mastery.
Tonil 03-04-07, 12:33 AM	I don't think Weapon Specialization, even as a gateway feat, is worth the prereqs. A DM I played with made Weapon Spec, Greater Weapon Focus, and Greater Weapon Spec. class skills for fighters. That is, at 4th, 8th and 12th levels you automatically got the feats for one weapon you had weapon focus in (like the Ranger combat style). This was before PHB2 Weapon Mastery. Overall it worked, and it gave the fighter enough feats to become good at melee and ranged weapons and still throw in less common feats such as improved trip or mounted combat. And for the record, I am one who thinks that +2 hit and +4 damage on every attack role is pretty good, even at higher fighter levels. Few feats are used as often as focus and specializaion, and the "small" bonus added to 3-4 attacks each round, round after round, really do make a difference. In order to add +2 to an attack roll by increasing one's strength score requires adding 3 or 4 ability points to strength, which takes 12-16 levels (i.e., +1 to strength every 4 levels) Compared to that the weapon focus/specialization tree has more bonus after fewer levels. The problem I have always had is that if you find a +4 longsword at 13th level, and you focused in greatsword, your feats are superceeded by magic. Then the strength bonus looks pretty good. Weapon Mastery from PHB2 solves this problem (and gives a powerful extra bonus).
paladin2019 03-04-07, 04:17 AM	Did these class abilities replace the bonus feats for these levels or were they in addition to?
Tonil 03-04-07, 08:40 AM	Did these class abilities replace the bonus feats for these levels or were they in addition to? They were in addition to the usual bonuses. So at 4th level you automatically got weapon specialization in one weapon you took focus in (not having a weapon focus yet never came up), and then you chose your fighter bonus feat (which could be weapon specialization in another weapon). It was a way to bump the fighter without changing the actual feat descriptions. Like the ranger these were "whether or not you have the prerequisites," but since those feats required that one be a fighter anyway there is little overall change to the game balance except for three "extra" fighter bonus feats. I liked it because it made skill with at least one weapon a class skill. Obviously this is what usually happens, but then there are not many feats left over to specialize in more than one combat style (two-weapon, mounted, etc.) Also, he did not make weapon focus automatic at 1st level to minimize one level dipping. He thought these should be reserved for "committed" fighters.
Xavon 03-04-07, 10:08 AM	And for the record, I am one who thinks that +2 hit and +4 damage on every attack role is pretty good, even at higher fighter levels. Few feats are used as often as focus and specializaion, and the "small" bonus added to 3-4 attacks each round, round after round, really do make a difference. In order to add +2 to an attack roll by increasing one's strength score requires adding 3 or 4 ability points to strength, which takes 12-16 levels (i.e., +1 to strength every 4 levels) Compared to that the weapon focus/specialization tree has more bonus after fewer levels. Except that the +4 Strength gives the bonus to all melee weapons and compatible bows, and to skills checks and carrying capacity. Also a Barbarian gets +4 Str much sooner than the Fighter completes the WF/WS tree, albeit with some drawbacks and limitations.
Tonil 03-04-07, 11:33 AM	Except that the +4 Strength gives the bonus to all melee weapons and compatible bows, and to skills checks and carrying capacity. Yes, I agree, additions to ability points are one of the best moves you can make. But when people complain that Greater Weapon Focus gives you "only" +2 to hit I am reminded that it is not easy to add attack bonuses in other non-magical ways. I think of success in d20 as the addition of lots of small bonuses, and the Weapon Focus tree adds to this list of bonuses. Higher Strength adds to it too, but can take longer. I think the limit of focus/specialization on only one weapon type is the biggest drawback. As a fighter gains and keeps (for those special situations) a +3 longsword, a Ghost Touch Greataxe, and an Giant Bane Scimitar, their Weapon Focus (Greatsword) is wasted. Weapon Mastery (from PHB2) solves that dilemma, and adds another bonus. (or you can sell those and buy new weapons, but that depends on the DM) But I do not mean to hijack this thread. I do think that there are times that the straight fighter lacks the ability to keep up at high levels. D&D supplements this with lots of magic weapons, but changes to some of the feats enhance the fighter's primary class ability. I like some of the suggestions above, I am just not sure that dramatic changes to the feats are necessary.
Lecen_of_Mitran 03-04-07, 12:05 PM	What the Fighter need is not more attack or damage bonus, he needs something that makes the class playable, something like: more skills (Like diplomacy, Knowledge, etc) and more higher lvl fighter-only feats. And a high will save.