Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nicholas the Paladin 04-20-08, 11:45 AM	Hi guys, What 3.5ed ruling would make the 3.0ed feat 'Knockdown' balanced and workable? It's a feat from 'sword & Fist' and lets you make a free trip attempt when you do 10 or more damage. It's an unbalaced feat even when you add (for instance) 'power attack' to the prerequ's. It's not workable this way since getting 10 damage is really easy... ... but, I just really like the feel of this feat: you slam somebody to the ground with mighty hits. Do you know a 3.5 ruling that would make this feat workable? Or do you have ideas yourself? Thanks!
Jaxgaret 04-20-08, 03:28 PM	It actually has been updated to 3.5: Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown). If you wanted to make it more balanced, you could change it to "Whenever you deal X or more points of damage to your opponent in melee, you make a trip attack as a free action against the same target, where X is their Con score." Makes it harder to knock down tough opponents. And for the average person, the number will still be 10.
Kouk 04-20-08, 03:43 PM	The linked SRD version is from a 3.0 edition book as well actually, Deities and Demigods.
Nicholas the Paladin 04-20-08, 04:11 PM	It actually has been updated to 3.5: [URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown"]Knock-Down[/URL This is the same as the 3rd version, so it's not balanced If you wanted to make it more balanced, you could change it to "Whenever you deal X or more points of damage to your opponent in melee, you make a trip attack as a free action against the same target, where X is their Con score." That's a good idea, but I'm afraid that won't make much of a difference.... aside from really big creatures (who would be somewhat resistant to it because of their Size and occasional 4 or more feet)
Amaril 04-20-08, 05:43 PM	I never understood how this feat is better than improved trip. Am I missing something?
EjoThims 04-20-08, 08:55 PM	I never understood how this feat is better than improved trip. Am I missing something? They stack. You hit for 10+, trip for free, and then gain a bonus attack from Improved Trip.
runestar 04-20-08, 09:06 PM	They stack. You hit for 10+, trip for free, and then gain a bonus attack from Improved Trip. You wouldn't get anything. Improved trip effectively gives you back the attack you used for the trip. Knockdown lets you trip as a free action, so improved trip just gives you a free action back.
StruckingFuggle 04-20-08, 10:11 PM	You wouldn't get anything. Improved trip effectively gives you back the attack you used for the trip. Knockdown lets you trip as a free action, so improved trip just gives you a free action back. I'm not sure how you mean that... Improved Trip = I try to trip you. If I miss, nothing happens. Improved Trip + Knockdown = I hit you, deal damage, and then maybe trip you, and then get a free second attack at the same bonus. ( Meanwhile: Improved Trip + Knockdown + Knockback + Shock Trooper = I hit you, you fall down. When you fall down, I hit you again (three hits!), you go flying, and when you leave my threatened area, I get a third attack! :D )
pigknight 04-20-08, 10:16 PM	50 points of damage required is harder to get and make it Str 19.
Thief_of_Hope 04-20-08, 10:27 PM	50 points of damage required is harder to get and make it Str 19. IIRC, with foes of medium-size or smaller I believe you'll be threatening death by massive damage at 50. Which seems much more dangerous than falling over (even if the falling over will likely eventually lead to death anyway). Perhaps a compromise? 10 seems much too small, but I feel like it should be lower than the threshhold for massive damage. Just a thought.
zeratulcraft 04-20-08, 10:33 PM	Could call Awesome Blow the update, gotta call the attack, take -4 to hit, if you hit you deal damage which is also the reflex save for the target or fly 10ft and land prone.
Nicholas the Paladin 04-21-08, 02:29 AM	Could call Awesome Blow the update, gotta call the attack, take -4 to hit, if you hit you deal damage which is also the reflex save for the target or fly 10ft and land prone. Is that how Awesome Blow works? The -4 to hit is a good way to really think twice about using 'Knockdown'. A reflex-save with a DC of 20+ isn't easily made and even worse (more powerfull) than an opposed trip-check. Flying 10ft away will make you use an attack only 1/round. Seems perfect, but it's a different thing all of a sudden. My proposition for 3.5 Knock-Down: - prereq: improved trip, Power attack, str 18 - when you make an POwer Attack with a minimum -4 penalty and you score at least 30 damage, you can make a free trip attack When you're wielding a 2-handed weapon (+8 damage), that's not too bad. We could also make it a standard action...but maybe that's a bit too much. How's that?
EjoThims 04-21-08, 07:40 AM	You wouldn't get anything. Improved trip effectively gives you back the attack you used for the trip. Knockdown lets you trip as a free action, so improved trip just gives you a free action back. Improved Trip gives you a free attack. It's as if you hadn't used your attack for a trip, yes, but it still specifically gives you a free attack. This is also why giving a Wolf (or Dire- or Winter- or Whatever-Wolf) Improved Trip is so nasty.
runestar 04-21-08, 10:25 AM	Improved Trip gives you a free attack. It's as if you hadn't used your attack for a trip, yes, but it still specifically gives you a free attack. This is also why giving a Wolf (or Dire- or Winter- or Whatever-Wolf) Improved Trip is so nasty. On rereading the feat, I am inclined to say that you are right. My mistake.:)
EjoThims 04-21-08, 10:31 AM	My mistake.:) We all make them... Even myself! :blush: ;)
runestar 04-21-08, 10:37 AM	Sounds fun with awesome blow. Initiate awesome blow - knock foe away, he provokes AoO because he is leaving a square you threaten. Hit him again, trigger trip, activate improved trip to get in a 3rd attack...:cool:
EjoThims 04-21-08, 10:45 AM	Sounds fun with awesome blow. Initiate awesome blow - knock foe away, he provokes AoO because he is leaving a square you threaten. Hit him again, trigger trip, activate improved trip to get in a 3rd attack...:cool: Does Awesome Blow not have the "this movement provokes no AoOs" clause? Most forced movement abilities do, but it would be rather... Awesome... If it was left out here. :cool:
Nicholas the Paladin 04-21-08, 03:41 PM	Sounds fun with awesome blow. Initiate awesome blow - knock foe away, he provokes AoO because he is leaving a square you threaten. Hit him again, trigger trip, activate improved trip to get in a 3rd attack...:cool:yeah, it's fun alright :rolleyes: But untill Knock-down isn't made into a workable version, no fun for you ;) What about my prosition in my previous post? Any other ideas?
pigknight 04-21-08, 09:10 PM	50 damage isn't that hard to get (I have a 5th level paladin that can do 50+ damage 1/day, only cause I can cast the spell only 1 time /day).
Anearysm 04-21-08, 09:33 PM	i can think of a somewhat reasonable one: Knockdown [I]Whenever you land a critical hit with a weapon that deals blunt damage, your target falls prone. Seems to fit the flavor and doesn't seem too unbalanced at first glance. Blunt damage so people can't abuse it with keen rapiers.
ToastedAmphibian 04-22-08, 12:08 AM	Knockdown Str 13, Int 13, Power Attack, Improved Trip, Combat Expertise As a stadard action, or at the end of a charge, you may force your oponent from his feat. To use this feat, you must declare it before you make your attack roll, and you must take atleast a -5 penalty to your attack roll from power attack. If you sucessfully strike your opponnent, you may lower your damage by 100% of your power attack penalty (no bonus on a 1-handed weapon, 1x bonus on a 2-handed weapon, 2x bonus on a 2-handed leap attack, ect) for this hit in order to iniate a trip attempt as a free action. If you suceed on your trip attempt, you may make an extra attack upon the target, as stated under the improved trip feat. This attack, and any other attacks you may make in this round do not suffer the damage penalty applied by this feat. Special: A creature that has power attack as a bonus feat does not need to meet the Str requierment. A creature that has improved trip as a bonus feat does not need to meet the intelligence requierment or possess the combat expertise feat. Hows that?
TekknoMancer 04-22-08, 12:34 AM	Um...I don't see how knockdown is broken. It's basically just improved trip in reverse with the expense of 2 feats. Improved trip = make a trip attempt. If you fail, you fail with no free attack. If you trip them you get a free attack. Knock-down = you attack them as normal. If you miss or deal < 10 damage, nothing happens. If you deal 10+ damage, you can try to trip them. I'm quite sure that you are not supposed to get a free attack if you trip them. If you're playing that way, then it is indeed nasty.
Nicholas the Paladin 04-22-08, 03:15 AM	50 damage isn't that hard to get (I have a 5th level paladin that can do 50+ damage 1/day, only cause I can cast the spell only 1 time /day). Whoo, you're soo cool! You are able to use a feat 1/day and you think that's worth it? Knockdown [Insert requirements here] Whenever you land a critical hit with a weapon that deals blunt damage, your target falls prone. Seems to fit the flavor and doesn't seem too unbalanced at first glance. Blunt damage so people can't abuse it with keen rapiers. That's a start. Come on, you can do better ! Um...I don't see how knockdown is broken. It's basically just improved trip in reverse with the expense of 2 feats. Improved trip = make a trip attempt. If you fail, you fail with no free attack. If you trip them you get a free attack. Knock-down = you attack them as normal. If you miss or deal < 10 damage, nothing happens. If you deal 10+ damage, you can try to trip them. I'm quite sure that you are not supposed to get a free attack if you trip them. If you're playing that way, then it is indeed nasty. No, that's not how it work IIRC. You get a 'free' trip attempt almost all the time (10 damage is very very easy). You don't get a free atack once the target is prone, lik ewith ImprTRip. But you *do* get an AoO when he tries to get up...and he's spending a *move action* to do so. With this AoO you get another free tripattempt. Knockdown Str 13, Int 13, Power Attack, Improved Trip, Combat Expertise As a stadard action, or at the end of a charge, you may force your oponent from his feat. To use this feat, you must declare it before you make your attack roll, and you must take atleast a -5 penalty to your attack roll from power attack. If you sucessfully strike your opponnent, you may lower your damage by 100% of your power attack penalty (no bonus on a 1-handed weapon, 1x bonus on a 2-handed weapon, 2x bonus on a 2-handed leap attack, ect) for this hit in order to iniate a trip attempt as a free action. If you suceed on your trip attempt, you may make an extra attack upon the target, as stated under the improved trip feat. This attack, and any other attacks you may make in this round do not suffer the damage penalty applied by this feat.okay, now we're getting somewhere, ...but it's worded pretty complicated. Let's see if I get this right. You must: - spend an standard action or on a charge (which will make it most likely a charge-only option) - take at least -5 to hit - you do either +10 damage *or* get a free attack (correct?) - when you succeed in tripping, as a bonus you get an extra attack (no penalty) .... beside the AoO , when the opponent gets up --> so you get a huge penalty when you apply this feat, but get something monstrous in return --> the choice to get +10 damage OR a free trip isn't really a choice: everyone that's takes this huge penalty will want the free trip...otherwise they will just use POwer Attack Special: A creature that has power attack as a bonus feat does not need to meet the Str requierment. A creature that has improved trip as a bonus feat does not need to meet the intelligence requierment or possess the combat expertise feat. wow, complicated. Why?
EjoThims 04-22-08, 07:33 AM	Special: A creature that has power attack as a bonus feat does not need to meet the Str requierment. A creature that has improved trip as a bonus feat does not need to meet the intelligence requierment or possess the combat expertise feat. That text becomes obsolete if you change the prereqs to just "Power Attack, Improved Trip." I think everyone is looking at this the wrong way though... Instead of making it harder to get Knockdown to activate, if you really want to nerf it but allow something similar in play, then make it harder for them to win the trip (through penalties to the check or bonuses to the target's check) and/or change it from a trip to a bullrush attempt that knocks them prone and only moves them 1/4 as far as the check would normally allow (5' minimum).
Qube 04-22-08, 08:01 AM	How about, when you deal 10 or more damage to an opponent, that opponent needs to make a opposite trip (DC: your attack) or fall prone ...
Merestil Haye 04-22-08, 08:13 AM	Since (as has been pointed out) Knockdown still has its 3.0 wording, the 3.0 ruling still applies. If you get a trip attack from your Knockdown feat and trip your opponent, you do not get a free attack from Improved Trip. Go here (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/SwordandFistFAQ05082003.zip) and download the Sword and Fist FAQ, where you can read that in black and white. For those who can't use Acrobat Reader, it says :Does the fighter with the Knockdown feat get a free attack from Improved Trip against a creature that he trips due to a knockdown? No.
EjoThims 04-22-08, 08:45 AM	Since (as has been pointed out) Knockdown still has its 3.0 wording, the 3.0 ruling still applies. Sadly, the FAQ entry is mistaken. The 3.5 FAQ is a lot better (usually), but you have to remember, the FAQ can't change rules, only clarify them. It is quite clear that Improved Trip gives a free attack with any trip, no matter it's source, and it's clear that Knockdown gives a trip. Now... That's not to say that the FAQ entry isn't a good guideline for a house rule if you want to reduce the power of this combination, but it is false to say that the FAQ is correct in how it approaches this question.
ToastedAmphibian 04-22-08, 04:30 PM	Hmm. Im sorry that the wording is confrusing. Your not quite right here; okay, now we're getting somewhere, ...but it's worded pretty complicated. Let's see if I get this right. You must: - spend an standard action or on a charge (which will make it most likely a charge-only option) Correct. Did i just make pounce MORE powerfull? Yes i think i did. - take at least -5 to hit Correct - you do either +10 damage *or* get a free attack (correct?) No. You can decide to take a penalty on your damage roll equal to the penalty on your attack roll, thus getting your free trip. Or you can say screw it and just deal your damage. Basically, its an escape clause should you decide you dont want to trip them. Like if you roll a crit. An example i guess: Mr. Barbarian charges with a 2handed axe and uses leap attack. He took a -5 for his power attack penalty. Power attack gives him +10dmg, leap attack gives him +5 dmg. If he chooses to attempt the trip, he takes a -5 penalty on his damage roll for the hit that iniates the trip.10+5-5=+10dmg - when you succeed in tripping, as a bonus you get an extra attack (no penalty) .... beside the AoO , when the opponent gets up Almost. You suffer all the normal penaltys on any other attacks you make, just not the damage penalty from knockdown. You only get the extra atack because you have improved trip --> so you get a huge penalty when you apply this feat, but get something monstrous in return Correct i guess --> the choice to get +10 damage OR a free trip isn't really a choice: everyone that's takes this huge penalty will want the free trip...otherwise they will just use POwer Attack Unless your using a 1handed weapon without any other power attack boosting feats, youll still get SOME bonus damage from power attack. Hmm, ill try and see if i can clean up the wording some. That text becomes obsolete if you change the prereqs to just "Power Attack, Improved Trip." Yes i know, but that kinda flys in the face of a long standing tradition or two. If everyone prefeers it that way, ill put it that way from here on. My way fills up more book space though! I think everyone is looking at this the wrong way though... Instead of making it harder to get Knockdown to activate, if you really want to nerf it but allow something similar in play, then make it harder for them to win the trip (through penalties to the check or bonuses to the target's check) and/or change it from a trip to a bullrush attempt that knocks them prone and only moves them 1/4 as far as the check would normally allow (5' minimum). I belive there are already 2 feats that do this, or something very similiar. One is called Driving Thrust or some such, and allows you to make an attack with a piercing weapon as a standard action to iniate a bullrush attempt, and you use your damage as a bonus to the check? something like that. The other is Knockback from races of stone. I love that feat.
EjoThims 04-22-08, 09:29 PM	I belive there are already 2 feats that do this, or something very similiar. One is called Driving Thrust or some such, and allows you to make an attack with a piercing weapon as a standard action to iniate a bullrush attempt, and you use your damage as a bonus to the check? something like that. The other is Knockback from races of stone. I love that feat. THen, if still wanting this feat to exist beside them, it would be better to model this after them more, but give the target higher bonuses on his opposed check. I just think that adjusting the damage somehow is going to be complicated with any system that actually works as wanted.
ToastedAmphibian 04-22-08, 09:59 PM	Baseing it on damage dealt is the part that generally makes it broken/hard to balance/poorly thought out. You need another mechanisim to make it workable. I might be wrong but it seems to me that the general goal is to design a balanced feat named "Knockdown" that works with the fluff "You hit them hard, and they fall down" Designe a feat based on thoes paramaters. Forget about the old knockdown feat and just start fresh.
Merestil Haye 04-23-08, 05:58 AM	Sadly, the FAQ entry is mistaken. The 3.5 FAQ is a lot better (usually), but you have to remember, the FAQ can't change rules, only clarify them.No, but the Errata can. The Errata for Knockdown.p.7 Knockdown Insert to end of Benefit: Use of this feat cannot be combined with Improved Trip to generate an extra attack, and successful use of this feat does not grant an extra attack through the Cleave or Great Cleave feats. Insert may into “you may make a trip attack as a free action.” After “whenever you deal 10 or more points of damage to your opponent in melee” insert: with a single attackYou do not get an extra attack with Improved Trip.
EjoThims 04-23-08, 08:56 AM	No, but the Errata can. The Errata for Knockdown.You do not get an extra attack with Improved Trip. Indeed it can. I did miss the errata the first time around, but it really wouldn't have made the point if I just posted the errata link clarifying the FAQ entry once I saw it. In fact, it might very much mislead people into the same type of thinking that your post quoting the FAQ makes. :cool:
Johannixx 04-23-08, 11:19 AM	The real bonus of Knockdown is that, per the Sage, it doesn't allow a counter-trip attempt if you fail the opposed Trip check. Other than that, it's basically Improved Trip in reverse for the cost of an extra feat. Improved Trip: Touch attack -> trip check -> free attack against prone opponent Knockdown: Melee attack -> minimum damage -> free trip check Yes, it's easy to get a minimum 10 damage past about 5th level. But Knockdown isn't all-powerful. There are methods to stand up without provoking AoOs. Even if you provoke the AoO, you can't be tripped again, because you're still technically prone when the AoO occurs. And anyone who abuses Knockdown will most likely start to see an abundance of dwarves, multi-legged critters, and large/huge/garg/col critters who laugh at his puny trip checks. It's no worse than Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, or any of the other special attack mode feats.
Nicholas the Paladin 04-24-08, 09:16 AM	Even if you provoke the AoO, you can't be tripped again, because you're still technically prone when the AoO occurs. really, why? opponent uses moveaction to get up, gets hit (min 10), and has to succeed on a trip-check again.
Merestil Haye 04-24-08, 10:08 AM	really, why? opponent uses moveaction to get up, gets hit (min 10), and has to succeed on a trip-check again.You can't trip someone by an AoO provoked by him getting up, because the AoO happens before he gets up. The AoO is not provoked by his completing the manoevre, but by starting it - ie by spending the necessary action(s). If you don't render him unconscious or otherwise unable to act by the AoO, he completes the action after the AoO is resolved. As a sort of quid pro quo, because he's prone when you take the AoO, he takes a -4 penalty to his AC against your attack.
Johannixx 04-24-08, 10:09 AM	really, why? opponent uses moveaction to get up, gets hit (min 10), and has to succeed on a trip-check again. Didn't the Sage rule on this already? The movement provokes before it's completed, so the target is still technically prone when the AoO occurs. If you trip him again with an AoO, he's still prone, then his movement completes and he stands up.
curtis_ownby 04-24-08, 08:28 PM	It says you have to do 10 points of damage with a single attack, not in one turn. So it would be hard to do 10 points of damage without useing Power Attack which will make it harder to trip them if you do use it. Yes it is a good feat, but you have to spend three feats to get it as well as have a str15, and int13 to get it.
EjoThims 04-25-08, 02:24 AM	So it would be hard to do 10 points of damage without useing Power Attack What? 2d6+1.5Str means that, on average, having the 15 Str required and no other damage bonuses is all you need to activate the feat. To make it automatic, you only need 8 bonus damage tops, or 22 Str. Or 20 Str with 1 bonus damage from anything. Or 18 with 2 bonus damage.
Nicholas the Paladin 04-25-08, 04:53 AM	Too my surprise, a free trip attacks in't all that special to some people. I really hadn't expected that. There you are hacking away, once in a while your opponent falls down, looses attacks because of having to get up (move action) and giving you an occasional extra attack (AoO). .... for just 2 feats. That's a thing of note. so, is my simple (or any other) adjustment needed? My proposition for 3.5 Knock-Down: - prereq: improved trip, Power attack, str 18 - when you make an POwer Attack with a minimum -4 penalty and you score at least 30 damage, you can make a free trip attack
Johannixx 04-27-08, 09:38 AM	30 damage is a bit high, as is the 18 Str requirement. I also liked the 3.0 prereqs for Int and Imp. Trip. I always envisioned Knockdown as a combination of power and precision: you know just where to hit someone to knock them off their feet, and you have the brawn to accomplish it. Rather than a simple hammer blow to the chest, you know that a shot to the side of the knee will crumple someone with much less effort.
Winterleaf 04-28-08, 04:25 PM	Keep in mind that they don't get a free attack when they've tripped someone, which they would if they'd given up their regular attack in order to do an Improved Trip attempt. So for the price of an extra feat, you've essentially reversed the order of events: Improved Trip: Touch attack->Opposed roll->replaced normal attack (at opponent's -4 AC for being prone) Knockdown: Normal attack->Touch attack->opposed roll There IS an advantage at putting the normal attack first, because under most circumstances the standard chance to hit with a melee attack is greater than the chance to trip, so you get to do your damage first and then check for trip. However, I'm not a number cruncher (and I'm lazy) but . . . isn't one's overall average chance for success higher with the Improved Trip sequence than with the Knockdown sequence? Because with the Improved Trip attempt, you will make the melee attack at an increased chance of success (defender -4 AC) and the melee attack at the start of your Knockdown is at the normal chance to hit. Having said that, the Trip attempt is a free action, and the SRD does stipulate that there may be a limit to the number of free actions you can take in a round. Make it once a round. . . or to eliminate ambiguity, change it to a swift action. Then they can't Knockdown when it's not their turn, and they can only do it once a round.
Johnathan_Vagabond 04-28-08, 05:20 PM	You could do it like this. Knock-Down Prereqs: Power Attack, Str 15, BAB +3 As a standard action you may make a single melee attack against a target. If you deal 10+target's Con mod damage to an target you may immediately make a free trip attempt against them. You do not provoke an AoO over this trip, you do not need to make a touch attack to determine if you initiate a trip, and you do not get a free attack against the target on a successful trip. If you fail to trip the target they do cannot counter trip you. Improved Knock-Down Prereqs: Power Attack, Knock-Down, Str 17, BAB +7 During any normal attack action, if you deal 15+target's Con mod damage to a creature you may make an immediate Knock-Down attempt. Heavy Hitter Prereqs: Power Attack, Knock-Down, BAB +3 When you are using Knock-Down against an enemy, use the damage dealt prior to applying the opponent's damage negating abilities (DR, Roll with it, et al) to determine if you gain a Knock-Down attempt against them. When using Knock-Down to trip an opponent you gain a +2 to the trip attempt. I don't see any reason for there to be an improved trip function, regardless of the original feat. This doesn't have anything to do with the skill or grace. Theres no need to dodge an AoO and avoid a return trip. You hit them hard, they fell down. Done and done. Any brute should be able to take this.