Post/Author/DateTime	Post
FrostHammer 01-19-08, 12:08 AM	Ok, I want to know what this Goliath did to our party. The GM described this spiked-chains wielding goliath as some sort of bull-rushing monster! Here’s the bullet-point abbreviated version of what she (the goliath) did to us in 2 rounds. Round 1: Goliath wins initiative *Charges the paladin, landing a hit *Gets a free bull-rush attempt (described as using the chain to knock the paladin back hard) *bull-rush went diagonal instead of straight *paladin gets bull-rushed into the cleric *goliath gets a free trip attempt against each of them, succeeding *goliath gets a free hit on each of them as they get tripped *goliath gets to make another bull-rush against both the cleric and the paladin *cleric and paladin gets knocked into a wall, taking a huge amount of damage…while prone *Paladin and Cleric heal themselves, not wanting to provoke while standing up (LoH doesn’t provoke in our games) *Sorcerer and Beguiler blast and try to put the goliath to sleep. Didn’t work too well. Round 2: *Goliath performs first attack on cleric, doing normal damage as well as knocking him into the wall, again doing massive damage. Cleric falls unconscious. *Goliath performs 2nd attack on paladin, with the same results. So what happened here?
Orenmir 01-19-08, 12:15 AM	Shock Trooper + Dungeon Crasher + Charging Minotaur + Improved Trip + Pounce
runestar 01-19-08, 12:17 AM	*Gets a free bull-rush attempt (described as using the chain to knock the paladin back hard) Possibly (but I cannot be 100% sure) the charging minotaur maneuver from Tome of battle (combines a charge with a bull rush). However, I think your DM missed something, in that the goliath did not need to move with the bull rush, meaning that your paladin would potentially provoke an AoO as he leaves a threatened square (meaning an extra hit). *bull-rush went diagonal instead of straight *paladin gets bull-rushed into the cleric *goliath gets a free trip attempt against each of them, succeeding These are features of the shock trooper tactical feat in complete warrior - directed bull rush and domino rush. *goliath gets a free hit on each of them as they get tripped Probably improved trip from PHB. *goliath gets to make another bull-rush against both the cleric and the paladin No idea.:embarrass *cleric and paladin gets knocked into a wall, taking a huge amount of damage…while prone Dungeoncrasher class variant ... from dungeonscape? He likely repeated the same thing for the subsequent rounds.
Orenmir 01-19-08, 12:24 AM	*Charges the paladin, landing a hit *Gets a free bull-rush attempt (described as using the chain to knock the paladin back hard) Charging Minotaur *bull-rush went diagonal instead of straight Shock Trooper *paladin gets bull-rushed into the cleric Shock Trooper *goliath gets a free trip attempt against each of them, succeeding Shock Trooper *goliath gets a free hit on each of them as they get tripped Improved Trip *goliath gets to make another bull-rush against both the cleric and the paladin Pounce *cleric and paladin gets knocked into a wall, taking a huge amount of damage…while prone Dungeon Crasher Round 2: *Goliath performs first attack on cleric, doing normal damage as well as knocking him into the wall, again doing massive damage. Cleric falls unconscious. Dungeon Crasher *Goliath performs 2nd attack on paladin, with the same results. So what happened here? I like this Goliath! Sounds like mid-to-high level. Needs levels in Fighter (for Dungeon Crasher), Barbarian (for Pounce), and ToB (for Charging Minotaur).
FrostHammer 01-19-08, 12:28 AM	What is this Charging Minotaur maneuver? I an intrigued. What discipline? The strange thing is, we're almost certain this Goliath isn't high enough level to have 3 iterative attacks. And the way the DM described it, the bullrushes come directly from the act of the spiked chain hitting the cleric and paladin, and is a direct followup to the attack, not a separate thing.
CrazyGuy 01-19-08, 12:32 AM	The others have pretty much pegged it, although I would like to point out that he proably using the Knockback feat from Races of Stone to initiate the bull rushes (since he performed the move three times in two consecutive rounds, impossible for any Martial Adept). Edit: Using pure fighter, the fastest I can make this character is in 9 levels. Ftr 1: Power Attack, EWP (Spiked Chain) Ftr 2: Dungeoncrasher Alternate Class Feature (Dungeonscape) Ftr 3: Improved Bull Rush Ftr 4: Knockback (Races of Stone) Ftr 5: Ftr 6: Improved Dungeoncrasher, Shock Trooper (C Warrior) Ftr 7: Ftr 8: Combat Expertise Ftr 9: Improved Trip
Orenmir 01-19-08, 12:33 AM	He only needed 2 iterative attacks. Some of the attacks were freebies, like an attack after tripping with Improved Trip. Charging Minotaur is a 1st level Stone Dragon maneuver. Any charging Martial Adept would have it; most likely a Warblade.
runestar 01-19-08, 12:33 AM	What is this Charging Minotaur feat? I an intrigued. Tome of battle. It is a maneuver, not a feat (though it can be obtained using a feat). The strange thing is, we're almost certain this Goliath isn't high enough level to have 3 iterative attacks. And the way the DM described it, the bullrushes come directly from the act of the spiked chain hitting the cleric and paladin, and is a direct followup to the attack, not a separate thing. He didn't need 3 attacks. What he likely did was to ... 1) Activate charging minotaur, charged your paladin (dealing 2d6+str mod on a successful hit), initiate bullrush. 2) Push them back, activate directed bull rush aspect of shock trooper (lets you bull rush someone sideways). As your paladin gets bullrushed into the square of your cleric, activates domino rush (free trip attempts if opponent is bullrushed into same square as someone else). 3) Assuming both trip attempts are successful, make the free follow-up attacks courtesy of improved trip. 4) Not sure where pounce comes in. He should have no more actions left. What lv is your party? I need more info before I can properly reconstruct the scenario.:)
Orenmir 01-19-08, 12:39 AM	4) Not sure where pounce comes in. He should have no more actions left. Good point. Charging Minotaur should have depleted his full-round action. Maybe the DM is bending the Pounce or Haste rules.
FrostHammer 01-19-08, 12:45 AM	The party average is about level 8. Not sure what level the Goliath is. As for Pounce, the goliath detected as Lawful, so I don't think it had Pounce. Unless it's a manuever? Also, we detected no magical auras from the goliath outside of a magical armor and weapon. no ongoing spell effects we could detect.
FrostHammer 01-19-08, 12:47 AM	The others have pretty much pegged it, although I would like to point out that he proably using the Knockback feat from Races of Stone to initiate the bull rushes (since he performed the move three times in two consecutive rounds, impossible for any Martial Adept). Edit: Using pure fighter, the fastest I can make this character is in 9 levels. Ftr 1: Power Attack, EWP (Spiked Chain) Ftr 2: Dungeoncrasher Alternate Class Feature (Dungeonscape) Ftr 3: Improved Bull Rush Ftr 4: Knockback (Races of Stone) Ftr 5: Ftr 6: Improved Dungeoncrasher, Shock Trooper (C Warrior) Ftr 7: Ftr 8: Combat Expertise Ftr 9: Improved Trip Then she was at least CR 10 thanks to Goliath taking up one level...
CrazyGuy 01-19-08, 01:09 AM	Then she was at least CR 10 thanks to Goliath taking up one level... Correction: ECL 10. Unfortunately, I cannot find anyplace in Races of Stone that gives the CR adjustment for a Goliath, although, to go by the similiar Half-Giant, it seems to also be a +1. And I can make the same character as an ECL 9 by going Fighter 6/Psychic Warrior 2, but since you made no mention of Psionics, I did not bring it up.
FrostHammer 01-19-08, 01:19 AM	Tell me mroe about this Knockback feat and how it works. It combines an attack with a free bullrush always?
StruckingFuggle 01-19-08, 01:47 AM	Basically - and I hope this doesn't break the CoC - it's a feat that few pc races other than the Goliath can take that in some conditions allows you to make a bull rush attempt on whoever you hit with a melee attack, not requring you to follow them as they move.
AtsuiShoto 01-19-08, 03:35 AM	This DOES look like 3 separate attacks, 1 of them definitely a charge (perhaps all three of them). Now, to be able to charge and attack 3 times I can only think of some Haste or Speed effect on the blade, combined with BAB +9/+4, used at the end of a Pounce. To get pounce, assuming lawful alignment, I can only think of Psionic Lion's Pounce. Since it's second level, that would mean Psychic Warrior 4 or more. I would say Fighter 2/Psiwarrior 5 is possible, given the party level, but that setup misses out on the Improved Dungeoncrasher variant. Yeah, I'm just not seeing where the 3 attacks on a charge came from. Those second attacks against the Paladin and Cleric don't sound like freebies to me.
FrostHammer 01-19-08, 03:50 AM	Using Flaws maybe? But we don't even have any Psionic books, so I can't imagine the DM used that...
Jaxgaret 01-19-08, 04:35 AM	Is it possible that the Goliath got a Surprise Round on your party, and then went ahead and won Initiative as well, getting two rounds of attacks before anyone in your party could take any actions?
mplindustries 01-19-08, 04:59 AM	Ok, I want to know what this Goliath did to our party. The GM described this spiked-chains wielding goliath as some sort of bull-rushing monster! Here’s the bullet-point abbreviated version of what she (the goliath) did to us in 2 rounds. Round 1: Goliath wins initiative *Charges the paladin, landing a hit Well, obviously, a normal charge. *Gets a free bull-rush attempt (described as using the chain to knock the paladin back hard) This is absolutely Knockback (Races of Stone). The Bullrush is a totally free action. *bull-rush went diagonal instead of straight *paladin gets bull-rushed into the cleric Directed Bullrush, the first benefit of Shock Trooper (Complete Warrior) *goliath gets a free trip attempt against each of them, succeeding Domino Rush, the second benefit of Shock Trooper *goliath gets a free hit on each of them as they get tripped Improved trip, which I think is obvious *goliath gets to make another bull-rush against both the cleric and the paladin Again, Knockback *cleric and paladin gets knocked into a wall, taking a huge amount of damage…while prone This is Dungeon Crasher, the alternate fighter feature from Dungeonscape. It triggers upon bullrushing someone into a wall. *Paladin and Cleric heal themselves, not wanting to provoke while standing up (LoH doesn’t provoke in our games) *Sorcerer and Beguiler blast and try to put the goliath to sleep. Didn’t work too well. Round 2: *Goliath performs first attack on cleric, doing normal damage as well as knocking him into the wall, again doing massive damage. Cleric falls unconscious. Again, Knockback + Dungeon Crasher *Goliath performs 2nd attack on paladin, with the same results. Well, he has at least a +6 BAB. I don't know how anyone is seeing three attacks. The first round is only one attack on a charge. The bullrush is triggered from that, which in turn triggers the trip, which triggers the bonus swing, which triggers the bullrush again. So he was a Fighter, for sure. I would bet that Crazy Guy was right and he was 9th level. He could also have done it by level 8 if your GM didn't realize Dungeon Crashers lost their 6th level feat, as well, which I think is a definite possibility. However, its definitely doable faster, with Unearthed Arcana/SRD variants. You wouldn't even need psionics. Fighter 1 - EWP, Power Attack Fighter 2 - Dungeon Crasher Fighter 2/Passive Way Monk 1 - Combat Expertise, Improved Bullrush Fighter 2/PWMonk 2 - Improved Trip Fighter 3/PWMonk 2 Fighter 3/PWMonk 3 - Knockback Fighter 4/PWMonk 3 - Shock Trooper With this setup, though unlikely, he'd have Still Mind and a much higher base will save, making it even harder for the Beguiler. Only +6 BAB, but with enough strength, its not that important. The 6th level of fighter makes Dungeon Crasher completely ridiculous and awesome, but is hardly necessary in order for it to do massive damage, especially if your DM ruled Power Attack's damage applied to it.
runestar 01-19-08, 06:10 AM	Hmm...knockback does seem more likely than charging minotaur. As for pounce, he might have started off as chaotic, went 1 lv of barb for the pounce variant from complete champion, then went lawful (you just lose rage). Seems like a waste though, staying chaotic would have enabled mountain rage, which makes you large (20-ft reach) and granted +6str.
FrostHammer 01-19-08, 02:07 PM	Does Power Attack damage help the Dungeonm Crasher damage at all?
Zelck 01-20-08, 01:35 AM	Your DM probably got the build from here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=791388). Have fun!
draco1119 01-20-08, 10:14 AM	I seem to recall a PrC from the Miniatures Handbook (War Hulk, I believe it's called), that was able to do some of these things as well. I don't have access to my books, since I'm at work, but I think that might be part of it, especially as you seem to be fairly sure of it being due (at least partially) to the weapon.