What feats are good for a bard? [Archive] - Wizards Community

What feats are good for a bard? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Nightshade
08-14-07, 08:07 PM Human Bard, lvl 1.

I was thinking Improved Initiative and I found Extra Music in the Eberron campaign book. But what about down the road?
willwrk4internet
08-14-07, 08:20 PM I personally love Words of Creation for bards. It is from the BoED.
It essentially doubles all your bardic music effects, but you must be of a good alignment.
While on the subject of good alignments, however, check out the troubador of the stars prestige class. That happens to be my favorite for bards.
Dalthbar
08-14-07, 09:24 PM I think Lingering Song (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Lingering_Song,) is a great feat for all Bards if you have access to Comp. Adventurer.
KrisTheGreat
08-14-07, 10:09 PM The key to play any cool bard is to have as many songs as possible. I suggest any feat that gives you another song to put to use. I would also prestige with everything i could.
Grogmir
08-15-07, 06:30 AM A Couple I like but flavour wise are a little strange.

Subsonics – Sing without the enemy hearing.
Melodic Casting – Cast a spell through your Music – so they can’t hear your music but you can still cast a spell!
Nightshade
08-15-07, 02:08 PM Melodic Casting sounds great. What book is that from?

So far... Extra Music, Lingering Song, Subsonics, Melodic casting. I think Words of Creation is out (no BoED).

I also found Ironskin chant, Chant of Fortitude, and Versatility in Complete Adventurer? Chant of Fortitude seems very circumstance specific so I'm thinking it's not very good. What about the other two? How is Lyric Spell?

As for prestige classes... I found Sublime Chord, Virtuoso, and Seeker of the Song (besides Troubadour of the Stars, which is out). What are opinions on these?

Any other feats worth mentioning?
Puca
08-15-07, 02:35 PM Why are you thinking Extra Music? You get 1/level, and they add up pretty quick, unless you are doing something like Lyric Spell or Metamagic Song, youll have plenty of uses per day without the feat.

As for prestige classes... I found Sublime Chord, Virtuoso, and Seeker of the Song (besides Troubadour of the Stars, which is out). What are opinions on these? The only one Ive first-hand experience with is Sublime Cord. It takes a long time to get there, but once you do, it is quite powerful. Seeker of the Song trades out casting power for spell-like musical effects. People like it.
Liox
08-15-07, 02:45 PM The Key to playing a good Bard character is timing. Best Feats to chose are those that gives you a boost in the early game. I suggest Feats such as Elven Dillidante or Arcane Tutelage. The early levels are important to survivability. My advice is to avoid the Bardic Feats unless necessary at the early entrant levels. I would only start taking perhaps after level 10 as a rule of thumb.

You may want to concentrate on the early skills lead. The other aspect would be to weigh your options for the next 3-4 feats that would give an obvious advantage. I suggest combat emphasis in early levels boosted to ensure Prestige Class makeup. Arcane Strike which gives versatility is a good choice in maximizing a strike combination against most characters.

I would also recommend Feats that would allow changes in saves such as Force of Personality.This taken will give you better saves. This should be done also after level 10.

If you are thinking of becoming more of a caster type. Than consider Automatic Spells and Epic Spell Casting in the first 40 levels.

Overall, the Bard is a relatively usable character provided that feats are not wasted. Also consider to play on Feats that maximize on Stat modifiers. The other thing on much higher campaigns - level 100 and above option is to increase its modifiers.

Tactical Feats are useful only if you are skilled in a particular style of combat. I do not advice unless extensive research, and would only consider if using a fighting Bard or at much higher levels. It is also more difficult to emphasize on Fighting Tactics when at mid levels, the number of attacks is limited and the character trails behind Fighters in terms of Combat Orientated Feat Trees.

Ambush Feats are almost a strict no-no. Unless , your DM allows a more proactive approach which is unlikely at Epic Levels.

The fundamental thing is to remember that Feats are extremely limited and should be balanced well. Always remember that when chosing Feats, the character of your Bard- which should be the most important guideline to Feat choice.
Vrellum
08-15-07, 03:07 PM song of the heart from ECS. It adds a bunch of bonuses to your bardic music abilities.
Mojo_Rat
08-15-07, 05:00 PM There is a feat that lets you use your perform in place of concentration. Another to let you spend a bardic music attempt to add damage to a sonic spell +1d6 per level of the spell.

However i totally forget which book ieither is in. Its either complete mage or arcane though most likely.
Mindolin
08-15-07, 05:30 PM Improved Initiative and Run, so you can go first and run from the much tougher threats. Pretty much everything falls into that catagory. Seriously though, most bards would benefit from Spell Focus Enchantment, or Ability Focus on one of their often used Bardic Music abilities that grants a save.
Squall255
08-15-07, 05:33 PM I forgot the name of the feat, but it's Comp Mage that has it. it's use perform for concentration, like Mojo Rat said.

Also, as far as seeker of the song goes... it's nice, but as a note, protection from energy at that level is much more powerful... and the magic attacks can be nice. also, the 6th or 7th level song, Hymn of spell death is ridiculously powerfull if you beef up your perform skill.
Johnny_Angel
08-15-07, 05:45 PM skill focus: perform (PHB)
Nymph's Kiss (Book of Exalted Deeds)

if your WIS score is low, Force of Personality is good, but I can't remember which book it is from.
High Octane
08-15-07, 06:01 PM For a BARD? Leadership.

Get yourself some backup singers to give that sweet +2 aid bonus from each of them every timeyou perform. Carrying your bags, shining your lute, etc.

Have them set up flyers and gather information for you. With leadership your one gather information can turn into 5, 10, or 30!

Have a sorcerer cohort or even another bard who can use his buffing spells as well on you or the whole party! Why waste your time with Inspire courage when you could hand that off to your cohort?

Being a bard you push all your points into charisma anyway, and with your slew of charisma based skills you can talk ANYONE into being part of your troupe!

Between the massive group you have helping you perform and others acting as advertisers and PR agents (Spread the word) You will be a freaking rock star within months!

Imagine having that kind of pull! Free lodging will be a cinch and no way the DM wouldnt let you get the best prices on new magic items! Not to mention all the plot hooks that could easily center from your immense fame!

Hell before long you will have enough of a group to be the crew of an entire galley! You will be able to sail anywhere for free!

And when that haughty wizard starts saying bards are useless, tell him "My crew gathered information for the last quest that got you that wand, rod and robe. My fame gets us free lodging. My crew got you places so you didnt have to waste your precious spell slots on flying spells or teleport spells that fail 30% of the time. I've created a musical legacy for myself. What will your legacy be? You will be remembered as 'that wizard that travelled with that world reknown bard'. History will see YOU as the background, sidekick at best. I've made us legendary. What have YOU done for our legacy?"

Also invest in improved trip and disarm. That whip proficiency is there for a reason.
tiercel
08-15-07, 07:13 PM As previously mentioned, how good Extra Music is for you will depend on whether you are planning to eventually take bardic music feats, perhaps most notably Lyric Spell and/or possibly Ironskin Chant (both in Complete Adventurer). If you don't take one of these feats, then once you get past 3rd or 4th level chances are Extra Music will mostly be wasted.

Improved Initiative is the Happy Generic Feat for all characters. The particular use it may have for a bard is when you want to actually talk your way past a bad guy/potential bad guy and you are worried about triggerhappy partymates. If you don't see yourself in this role so much then Improved Initiative is of only generic importance.

Lingering Song (Complete Adventurer) is a pretty good choice for many games -- it makes your Inspire Courage last for pretty much an entire fight after you stop actively singing. Note that the higher-powered your campaign is, the more likely it is that your fights will be shorter (and 5 rounds might be enough)... but in lower-powered campaigns, or one where your DM plays clever and/or hit-and-run and/or retreating-enemy tactics, having that longer duration can be awfully useful.

The other thing you can ask yourself is what role you see yourself playing in combat. You can be a part-time spellcaster but you really only get so many spells, which means, what are you doing the rest of the time? You can try classic melee, which with the right spells is do-able, you can be melee support with your whip, or you can go archer. In the latter case Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot are pretty obvious choices.

The same will go for your spell choices. At 1st level, you're going to be pretty limited naturally but you'll want to look ahead. Bards get some very nice spells for their limited spellcasting ability -- you'll want to figure whether you want to play battlefield control, buff spells, or an eclectic mix of utility spells.

The thing about bards is while they really *can* do a little bit of everything, you are generally better off giving your character some focus so that you are pretty good in your chosen role(s) rather than almost competent at everything. Pick one or two things you want to focus on, and let your Use Magic Device skill eventually make up the difference for you ;)
Sephiroth Do'Urden
08-15-07, 07:54 PM I would recommend you to play a Storm singer. It let's you do stuff a regular bard can't do in a cool way!
demonsaintdante
08-15-07, 08:26 PM Compete Warrior: WARCHANTER- First level you get inspire toughness: all characters get +2 hp / level

Later on you get Two songs as one: You can play two songs at the same time...

Throw inspire toughness with one of your other inspires and you got it made.
Sephiroth Do'Urden
08-16-07, 04:26 PM Compete Warrior: WARCHANTER- First level you get inspire toughness: all characters get +2 hp / level

Later on you get Two songs as one: You can play two songs at the same time...

Throw inspire toughness with one of your other inspires and you got it made.

Not to mention that you get the best BAB too!
IrishRover
08-18-07, 01:17 AM Run...
Obscure Knowlege--makes it more likely to know if you need to Run
(When in doubt...RUN!)
Vaelan
08-18-07, 01:54 AM Bards are too flexible to have a single set of feats. It all depends on what you want to do.

I highly recommend jumping into a Prestige Class at some point, though. There are just so many great ones for Bards. Dirgesinger from Libris Mortis is a commonly overlooked one, but its capstone ability is amazing.
The_Shaman
08-18-07, 04:04 PM It really depends on what you want to do. A singer bard can benefit from extra song/Artist (PGtF), a spellcaster bard can get a lot of mileage from Captivating Melody, while a warrior bard could benefit from feats such as Snowflake Wardance (esp if it is combined with a dervish dance). Cmage also has some pretty nice fey-themed feats - including such that give you a nice bonus to your enchantment DCs and allow you to get DR/Cold Iron.

Improved initiative is always nice. Extra Music or Artist (the FR analogue) are useful at first, but imo less so later on. Good call on Dirgesinger btw - some of its abilities have insane DCs, and the animate dead-ish ability can be simply awesome.
Vaelan
08-18-07, 05:02 PM Good call on Dirgesinger btw - some of its abilities have insane DCs, and the animate dead-ish ability can be simply awesome.
I just can't help but love a class that makes the Bard a contender for Best Necromancer.
FponkDamn
08-18-07, 05:39 PM Warchanter is an amazing prestige class; we have one of these in our regular monday game and the slew of bonuses he gives us is just phenomenal. Plus, inspire awe is a heck of an ability.

Also, for a GREAT feat, check the Forgotten Realms splat book called Champions of Ruin. There's a feat in there called Doomspeak - without completely posting the full text of the feat, the gist is: You spend a bardic music use to curse at a guy until he can barely act, and he gets a -10 (yes, ten!) to all rolls for one round. The save DC is amazing, as it uses your full character level (not even bard level!) and charisma modifier. And even at only lasting one round, once an enemy has a -10 to all saves, how many rounds does your party wizard need?

Good luck!

- Johnny

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nightshade 08-14-07, 08:07 PM	Human Bard, lvl 1. I was thinking Improved Initiative and I found Extra Music in the Eberron campaign book. But what about down the road?
willwrk4internet 08-14-07, 08:20 PM	I personally love Words of Creation for bards. It is from the BoED. It essentially doubles all your bardic music effects, but you must be of a good alignment. While on the subject of good alignments, however, check out the troubador of the stars prestige class. That happens to be my favorite for bards.
Dalthbar 08-14-07, 09:24 PM	I think Lingering Song (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Lingering_Song,) is a great feat for all Bards if you have access to Comp. Adventurer.
KrisTheGreat 08-14-07, 10:09 PM	The key to play any cool bard is to have as many songs as possible. I suggest any feat that gives you another song to put to use. I would also prestige with everything i could.
Grogmir 08-15-07, 06:30 AM	A Couple I like but flavour wise are a little strange. Subsonics – Sing without the enemy hearing. Melodic Casting – Cast a spell through your Music – so they can’t hear your music but you can still cast a spell!
Nightshade 08-15-07, 02:08 PM	Melodic Casting sounds great. What book is that from? So far... Extra Music, Lingering Song, Subsonics, Melodic casting. I think Words of Creation is out (no BoED). I also found Ironskin chant, Chant of Fortitude, and Versatility in Complete Adventurer? Chant of Fortitude seems very circumstance specific so I'm thinking it's not very good. What about the other two? How is Lyric Spell? As for prestige classes... I found Sublime Chord, Virtuoso, and Seeker of the Song (besides Troubadour of the Stars, which is out). What are opinions on these? Any other feats worth mentioning?
Puca 08-15-07, 02:35 PM	Why are you thinking Extra Music? You get 1/level, and they add up pretty quick, unless you are doing something like Lyric Spell or Metamagic Song, youll have plenty of uses per day without the feat. As for prestige classes... I found Sublime Chord, Virtuoso, and Seeker of the Song (besides Troubadour of the Stars, which is out). What are opinions on these? The only one Ive first-hand experience with is Sublime Cord. It takes a long time to get there, but once you do, it is quite powerful. Seeker of the Song trades out casting power for spell-like musical effects. People like it.
Liox 08-15-07, 02:45 PM	The Key to playing a good Bard character is timing. Best Feats to chose are those that gives you a boost in the early game. I suggest Feats such as Elven Dillidante or Arcane Tutelage. The early levels are important to survivability. My advice is to avoid the Bardic Feats unless necessary at the early entrant levels. I would only start taking perhaps after level 10 as a rule of thumb. You may want to concentrate on the early skills lead. The other aspect would be to weigh your options for the next 3-4 feats that would give an obvious advantage. I suggest combat emphasis in early levels boosted to ensure Prestige Class makeup. Arcane Strike which gives versatility is a good choice in maximizing a strike combination against most characters. I would also recommend Feats that would allow changes in saves such as Force of Personality.This taken will give you better saves. This should be done also after level 10. If you are thinking of becoming more of a caster type. Than consider Automatic Spells and Epic Spell Casting in the first 40 levels. Overall, the Bard is a relatively usable character provided that feats are not wasted. Also consider to play on Feats that maximize on Stat modifiers. The other thing on much higher campaigns - level 100 and above option is to increase its modifiers. Tactical Feats are useful only if you are skilled in a particular style of combat. I do not advice unless extensive research, and would only consider if using a fighting Bard or at much higher levels. It is also more difficult to emphasize on Fighting Tactics when at mid levels, the number of attacks is limited and the character trails behind Fighters in terms of Combat Orientated Feat Trees. Ambush Feats are almost a strict no-no. Unless , your DM allows a more proactive approach which is unlikely at Epic Levels. The fundamental thing is to remember that Feats are extremely limited and should be balanced well. Always remember that when chosing Feats, the character of your Bard- which should be the most important guideline to Feat choice.
Vrellum 08-15-07, 03:07 PM	song of the heart from ECS. It adds a bunch of bonuses to your bardic music abilities.
Mojo_Rat 08-15-07, 05:00 PM	There is a feat that lets you use your perform in place of concentration. Another to let you spend a bardic music attempt to add damage to a sonic spell +1d6 per level of the spell. However i totally forget which book ieither is in. Its either complete mage or arcane though most likely.
Mindolin 08-15-07, 05:30 PM	Improved Initiative and Run, so you can go first and run from the much tougher threats. Pretty much everything falls into that catagory. Seriously though, most bards would benefit from Spell Focus Enchantment, or Ability Focus on one of their often used Bardic Music abilities that grants a save.
Squall255 08-15-07, 05:33 PM	I forgot the name of the feat, but it's Comp Mage that has it. it's use perform for concentration, like Mojo Rat said. Also, as far as seeker of the song goes... it's nice, but as a note, protection from energy at that level is much more powerful... and the magic attacks can be nice. also, the 6th or 7th level song, Hymn of spell death is ridiculously powerfull if you beef up your perform skill.
Johnny_Angel 08-15-07, 05:45 PM	skill focus: perform (PHB) Nymph's Kiss (Book of Exalted Deeds) if your WIS score is low, Force of Personality is good, but I can't remember which book it is from.
High Octane 08-15-07, 06:01 PM	For a BARD? Leadership. Get yourself some backup singers to give that sweet +2 aid bonus from each of them every timeyou perform. Carrying your bags, shining your lute, etc. Have them set up flyers and gather information for you. With leadership your one gather information can turn into 5, 10, or 30! Have a sorcerer cohort or even another bard who can use his buffing spells as well on you or the whole party! Why waste your time with Inspire courage when you could hand that off to your cohort? Being a bard you push all your points into charisma anyway, and with your slew of charisma based skills you can talk ANYONE into being part of your troupe! Between the massive group you have helping you perform and others acting as advertisers and PR agents (Spread the word) You will be a freaking rock star within months! Imagine having that kind of pull! Free lodging will be a cinch and no way the DM wouldnt let you get the best prices on new magic items! Not to mention all the plot hooks that could easily center from your immense fame! Hell before long you will have enough of a group to be the crew of an entire galley! You will be able to sail anywhere for free! And when that haughty wizard starts saying bards are useless, tell him "My crew gathered information for the last quest that got you that wand, rod and robe. My fame gets us free lodging. My crew got you places so you didnt have to waste your precious spell slots on flying spells or teleport spells that fail 30% of the time. I've created a musical legacy for myself. What will your legacy be? You will be remembered as 'that wizard that travelled with that world reknown bard'. History will see YOU as the background, sidekick at best. I've made us legendary. What have YOU done for our legacy?" Also invest in improved trip and disarm. That whip proficiency is there for a reason.
tiercel 08-15-07, 07:13 PM	As previously mentioned, how good Extra Music is for you will depend on whether you are planning to eventually take bardic music feats, perhaps most notably Lyric Spell and/or possibly Ironskin Chant (both in Complete Adventurer). If you don't take one of these feats, then once you get past 3rd or 4th level chances are Extra Music will mostly be wasted. Improved Initiative is the Happy Generic Feat for all characters. The particular use it may have for a bard is when you want to actually talk your way past a bad guy/potential bad guy and you are worried about triggerhappy partymates. If you don't see yourself in this role so much then Improved Initiative is of only generic importance. Lingering Song (Complete Adventurer) is a pretty good choice for many games -- it makes your Inspire Courage last for pretty much an entire fight after you stop actively singing. Note that the higher-powered your campaign is, the more likely it is that your fights will be shorter (and 5 rounds might be enough)... but in lower-powered campaigns, or one where your DM plays clever and/or hit-and-run and/or retreating-enemy tactics, having that longer duration can be awfully useful. The other thing you can ask yourself is what role you see yourself playing in combat. You can be a part-time spellcaster but you really only get so many spells, which means, what are you doing the rest of the time? You can try classic melee, which with the right spells is do-able, you can be melee support with your whip, or you can go archer. In the latter case Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot are pretty obvious choices. The same will go for your spell choices. At 1st level, you're going to be pretty limited naturally but you'll want to look ahead. Bards get some very nice spells for their limited spellcasting ability -- you'll want to figure whether you want to play battlefield control, buff spells, or an eclectic mix of utility spells. The thing about bards is while they really can do a little bit of everything, you are generally better off giving your character some focus so that you are pretty good in your chosen role(s) rather than almost competent at everything. Pick one or two things you want to focus on, and let your Use Magic Device skill eventually make up the difference for you ;)
Sephiroth Do'Urden 08-15-07, 07:54 PM	I would recommend you to play a Storm singer. It let's you do stuff a regular bard can't do in a cool way!
demonsaintdante 08-15-07, 08:26 PM	Compete Warrior: WARCHANTER- First level you get inspire toughness: all characters get +2 hp / level Later on you get Two songs as one: You can play two songs at the same time... Throw inspire toughness with one of your other inspires and you got it made.
Sephiroth Do'Urden 08-16-07, 04:26 PM	Compete Warrior: WARCHANTER- First level you get inspire toughness: all characters get +2 hp / level Later on you get Two songs as one: You can play two songs at the same time... Throw inspire toughness with one of your other inspires and you got it made. Not to mention that you get the best BAB too!
IrishRover 08-18-07, 01:17 AM	Run... Obscure Knowlege--makes it more likely to know if you need to Run (When in doubt...RUN!)
Vaelan 08-18-07, 01:54 AM	Bards are too flexible to have a single set of feats. It all depends on what you want to do. I highly recommend jumping into a Prestige Class at some point, though. There are just so many great ones for Bards. Dirgesinger from Libris Mortis is a commonly overlooked one, but its capstone ability is amazing.
The_Shaman 08-18-07, 04:04 PM	It really depends on what you want to do. A singer bard can benefit from extra song/Artist (PGtF), a spellcaster bard can get a lot of mileage from Captivating Melody, while a warrior bard could benefit from feats such as Snowflake Wardance (esp if it is combined with a dervish dance). Cmage also has some pretty nice fey-themed feats - including such that give you a nice bonus to your enchantment DCs and allow you to get DR/Cold Iron. Improved initiative is always nice. Extra Music or Artist (the FR analogue) are useful at first, but imo less so later on. Good call on Dirgesinger btw - some of its abilities have insane DCs, and the animate dead-ish ability can be simply awesome.
Vaelan 08-18-07, 05:02 PM	Good call on Dirgesinger btw - some of its abilities have insane DCs, and the animate dead-ish ability can be simply awesome. I just can't help but love a class that makes the Bard a contender for Best Necromancer.
FponkDamn 08-18-07, 05:39 PM	Warchanter is an amazing prestige class; we have one of these in our regular monday game and the slew of bonuses he gives us is just phenomenal. Plus, inspire awe is a heck of an ability. Also, for a GREAT feat, check the Forgotten Realms splat book called Champions of Ruin. There's a feat in there called Doomspeak - without completely posting the full text of the feat, the gist is: You spend a bardic music use to curse at a guy until he can barely act, and he gets a -10 (yes, ten!) to all rolls for one round. The save DC is amazing, as it uses your full character level (not even bard level!) and charisma modifier. And even at only lasting one round, once an enemy has a -10 to all saves, how many rounds does your party wizard need? Good luck! - Johnny