Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zardnaar 05-08-07, 04:44 AM	A the title says. Shot on the Run+Spring ttack. I think the new Star Wars Saga rules has actually done this. Two Weapon Fighting+Improved Two Weapon Fighting+Greater TWF+ Perfect TWF. Compare to a two handed weapon user with a single feat- power attack in that case. Any others?
Dheran 05-08-07, 07:32 AM	Improved Critical + Telling Blow Dash + Run Quick Draw + Weapon Finesse Dodge + Mobility Improved Initiative + Alertness Improved Unarmed Strike + Weapon Focus (unarmed strike)
tarkin 05-08-07, 10:31 AM	The feat ideas above are reasonble for seperate new feats, as long as they don't qualify you for things that list the original as pre-reqs. As always, I hereby remind people that many feats (Dodge and Mobility come to obvious mind) are intentionally weak/sucky. They are intended to be used to qualify people for really powerfull/cool prestige classes and other feats (Spring Attack/Whirlwind) I.E. You pay for the cool things by being forced to spend several feats on junk. The concept of combining feats into new feats is fine, as long as you don't suddenly make powerfull things easier to get. That is, keep the old feats, and make new ones. Now the most convincing thing about this is if you truly think I am wrong, you will not object to making them seperate 'super feats' that don't qualify. The only people that object are those that know I am right and are trying to sneak 'something' for nothing without mentioning the pre-req thing that is so important they demand the right to do it.
Zardnaar 05-08-07, 10:39 AM	Problem is alot of t hose kewl feats like Whirlwind Attack or Spring Attack aern't that good anyway.
jaelis 05-08-07, 11:58 AM	Problem is alot of t hose kewl feats like Whirlwind Attack or Spring Attack aern't that good anyway. Then take your new super feat, and blow off the derivative ones. I can't agree with quick draw + weapon finesse, those are both solid feat individually. Improved Initative is also fine on it's own, no need to combo with alertness. And the problems with IUS are deeper than it being weak... the rules for combining unarmed strikes with other weapon attacks are murky, and I'd want to see them clarified first. Also combining all the TWF feats is a huge boost for rogues, I don't think they need it. Here's some ideas: Improved Feint + Persuasive Lightning Reflexes + Agile Iron Will + Self-suffiicient Great Fortitude + Athletic Toughness + Endurance (with Tarkin's point in mind)
Vegepygmy 05-08-07, 12:21 PM	Endurance + Diehard Deflect Arrows + Snatch Arrows I also agree with Dheran that Run + Dash should be merged, but I disagree (actually quite strongly) about Quick Draw + Weapon Finesse, Dodge + Mobility, Improved Initiative + Alertness, and IUS + WF (US). Those are all feats that I have taken by themselves before, and found to be worth it.
aelryinth 05-08-07, 07:53 PM	The feat ideas above are reasonble for seperate new feats, as long as they don't qualify you for things that list the original as pre-reqs. As always, I hereby remind people that many feats (Dodge and Mobility come to obvious mind) are intentionally weak/sucky. They are intended to be used to qualify people for really powerfull/cool prestige classes and other feats (Spring Attack/Whirlwind) I.E. You pay for the cool things by being forced to spend several feats on junk. The concept of combining feats into new feats is fine, as long as you don't suddenly make powerfull things easier to get. That is, keep the old feats, and make new ones. Now the most convincing thing about this is if you truly think I am wrong, you will not object to making them seperate 'super feats' that don't qualify. The only people that object are those that know I am right and are trying to sneak 'something' for nothing without mentioning the pre-req thing that is so important they demand the right to do it. This is an old and very outdated argument. To make a proper analogy to it: The Wizard, to get the potent spell he wants at a later level, must always keep these other two sucky low level spells in memory, eating up his spell slots. Furthermore, these two low level spells never improve with his level, they just cost spell slots and never become useful. So...how would your mage like it if to learn Fly he always had to keep Prestidigitation and Dancing Lights in memory? That's right, he could NEVER unmemorize them. Now repeat with all the 'cool' or 'powerful' spells. I'm sure I can come up with some sucky or irrelevant spells as qualifiers that he must always occupy his lower level slots with. Even something as dumb as "To Learn Meteor Swarm, you must always have Burning Hands, Scorching Ray, Fireball, Wall of Fire, Summon Fire Elemental, and Delayed Blast Fireball in memory at ALL TIMES. Furthermore, you may never unlearn Meteor Swarm and replace it with another spell." In short, you become a gimped sorceror. And you realize that argument really is pretty dumb. Feats are permanent choices, and should be valid at all points of a player's career. Being sucky now for greatness later is idiocy. Dodge is a weak feat. Mobility is a feat you take only for Spring Attack. If you really want to avoid AoO from movement, you just tumble. And if you are spring attacking, you don't take AoO from the target anyways! Spring Attack is nice, but only useful on builds based around single attacks. If you want full attack actions, or you don't have at least 40' of move, Spring Attack doesn't work very well. Whirlwind Attack is often a waste of a full attack action and highly situational. It doesn't stack with Cleave anymore, and rarely do you do enough dmg to drop something with it except very low level mooks. It'd be great at level 2-4...after that, it becomes worth less and less, since a good Fireball is more effective and hits more stuff. Improved Whirlwind is somewhat nicer, but again its based around everything being around you and willing to stay nicely cluttered up. Like normal whirlwind, you are unlikely to drop something, which means if you want to max out whirlwind's dmg, you end up sitting in the middle of a lot of enemies who then proceed to beat on you with their own full attacks. None of these is a good reason why choosing Dodge has to suck. ===Aelryinth
Neutronium_Dragon 05-08-07, 09:00 PM	That argument/approach has also been obsoleted by newer paradigms. Take a look at the PHB2. Rather than "You have to take a bunch of useless feats to qualify for this good one," it's "You have to take a good feat and meet some significant BAB/skill rank/class feature/etc requirements to qualify for this good one."
penchant 05-08-07, 09:20 PM	I think the skill feats (like alertness) are generally useless. If you have a skill that is important you use skill focus, like Skill Focus (Use Magic Device). The only one that is really complimentary is Stealthy, since you use both at the same time. Having throw away feats seems ok when you are just putting together a build. However when you play that character up from 1st level, spending your third feat on something that doesn't save your life, really bites. "Some day it'll be worth it," doesn't make it fun. Plus that leads to more metagaming since your PC doesn't know that he will end up taking PrC X later and that his current work in learning alertness, isn't just something to do while you are on watch. Shouldn't every non spell caster have had enough time on watch to earn a free alertness feat? Make crap feats better, power feats lesser. make every feat worth taking.
theotherdraxen 05-08-07, 11:17 PM	I personally disagree with the design philosophy behind taking sucky feats to qualify for better stuff. The game should facilitate playability at all levels. This philosophy is especially painful for the warrior-types, who need them the most, and gain their benefits at high levels, when they tend to become more obsolete. In other words, your efforts and pain at lower levels for power at higher levels does about nothing for you. Plus, um, for the most part, the benefits aren't all that great as aelryinth pointed out. Now here's how I'd roll up some of the feats: Combat Expertise Prerequisite: Int 13 Benefit: Combat Expertise, Improved Combat Expertise (CW). Wrestler Benefit: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, Improved Sunder. Pugilist Prerequisite: Wrestler, character level 3rd. Benefit: Superior Unarmed Strike (ToB), Snap Kick (ToB), Stunning Fist. Two-Weapon Fighting Prerequisite: Must have a dexterity score of 1 or higher. :) Benefit: Two-weapon fighting, Improved Two-weapon fighting, Greater two-weapon fighting, perfect two-weapon fighting (once they have the BAB to qualify for them). Two-Weapon Defense Prerequisite: Two-weapon fighting Benefit: Two-weapon Defense, Improved Two-weapon Defense (CW), Greater Two-weapon Defense (CW); all acquired at the appropriate levels. Guerilla Benefit: Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack (at 4th level), Shot on the Run. Bounding Assault Benefit: Bounding Assault, Rapid Blitz. In addition to this, you may charge an opponent and continue moving, following the path of your charge. Mounted Combat Benefit: Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery. Cavalier Prerequisite: Mounted Combat, Character level 6th. Benefit: Spirited Charge, Trample. Marksman Benefit: Point-blank Shot, Far Shot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Rapid Reload. Many Shot Prerequisite: Marksman, Character level 6th. Benefit: Rapid Shot, Many Shot, Greater Many Shot (XPH). Power Attack Prerequisite: Str 13. Benefit: Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave. Quickdraw Any character with a base attack bonus of 1 or more gains the benefit of this feat. Toughness Prerequisite: Base fort save +2. Benefit: Improved Toughness (CW). Track Any character trained in the Survival skill gains the benefit of this feat. Weapon Finesse Any character who is both proficient with and is wielding a weapon that Weapon Finesse applies to automatically gains the benefit of this feat. Weapon Master Benefit: Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Weapon Mastery, all at the appropriate fighter levels. Note: the PHB II feats Melee Weapon Mastery and Ranged Weapon Mastery remain the same. Anyway, it's a start. :)
Lina_Inverse 05-09-07, 12:01 AM	Two Weapon Fighting+Improved Two Weapon Fighting+Greater TWF+ Perfect TWF. Compare to a two handed weapon user with a single feat- power attack in that case. That would be how ridiculously broken on rogues?
Karzach 05-09-07, 12:11 AM	That would be how ridiculously broken on rogues? Add a note that offhand attacks don't qualify for sneak attack, then throw in a feat at later levels that allows them to use off-hand sneak attacks.
DarkRhystar 05-09-07, 12:12 AM	That would be how ridiculously broken on rogues? No more so than double power attack bonus is on THF'ers. Never could figure out why that was necessary (especially since the weapons already get a bigger damage die and 1.5 STR).
Zardnaar 05-09-07, 12:38 AM	That would be how ridiculously broken on rogues? Not really. with the minus 2 to hit you more or less have wizard BAB up until level 10+ or so. You would also only get the extra off hand attack when you BAB becomes high enough. 1 extra attack at level 8 (4 total) another one at level 15ish or so. They will never get 8 attacks a round. At those levels I would be more concerned with spell effects. A simple spell like blur totally negates sneak attack and a fighter ttype ca probably survive the damage and full attack the rogue to death. Theres alot of TWF feats but you'll ever get to take themn unless you're a single classed fighter and you will still be worse off than a THF fighter with power attack.
navar100 05-09-07, 02:51 AM	I think the skill feats (like alertness) are generally useless. If you have a skill that is important you use skill focus, like Skill Focus (Use Magic Device). The only one that is really complimentary is Stealthy, since you use both at the same time. Having throw away feats seems ok when you are just putting together a build. However when you play that character up from 1st level, spending your third feat on something that doesn't save your life, really bites. "Some day it'll be worth it," doesn't make it fun. Plus that leads to more metagaming since your PC doesn't know that he will end up taking PrC X later and that his current work in learning alertness, isn't just something to do while you are on watch. Shouldn't every non spell caster have had enough time on watch to earn a free alertness feat? Make crap feats better, power feats lesser. make every feat worth taking. I find them to be very situational depending upon character concept. As a house rule my group is allowed a free regional feat. My warlock took Negotiator to boost Diplomacy and Sense Motive. For the character concept in mind, those skills are useful, and I have benefited. I would agree it's not a feat for being most optimal for a warlock, but I'm not playing my warlock for most optimal. I'm playing him for most fun to play as I envision him. What I wrote in the Master of Masks thread in the Prestige Class forum I think applies to feats as well. I don't know if it was by design, but even given some feats are "obviously" better than others, those weaker feats just might be a perfect fit for games that are not so optimized for power. People complain a lot about something being overpowered, broken, etc. Maybe the weaker feats, prestige classes, etc., are for such people.
Dheran 05-09-07, 07:13 AM	I disagree (actually quite strongly) about Quick Draw + Weapon Finesse, Dodge + Mobility, Improved Initiative + Alertness, and IUS + WF (US). Those are all feats that I have taken by themselves before, and found to be worth it. So you've taken both Dodge and Mobility without any interest in Spring Attack or the Shadowdancer PrC? I'm surprised, because I've never seen that happen. Also, even if you augment Improved Unarmed Strike and Weapon Focus (unarmed strike) with Weapon Specialization (unarmed strike) (this latter being only available to Fighters) the combination of all three feats is worse less than either a single level of Monk or one of a couple of magic items (Monk's Belt, Fanged Ring). Finally, I've seen a lot of characters with Improved Initiative, but none with that and Alertness unless they got that latter feat from their race, their class (including a class that gets a familiar with the feat), or an item (Ioun stone).
AllisterH 05-09-07, 08:59 AM	I think only feats that are good by themselves don't need to be rolled into one. For example: Imporved initative by itself is a decent feat and a very popular one at that, whereas people only take Dodge to qualify for another feat. I disagree with rolling all the TWF feats into one. If I can do as much damage with one feat using PA with a normal sword as I can do using two normal weapons with one feat using the new uber TWF, then TWF is obviously the way to go a la 1E/2E. The problem is that there are a lot of options that only depend on how many attacks you hit with and NOT just a Rogue's Sneak attack bonus. For example, the tactical feat Stormguard Warrior's Combat Rhythm option and even simply weapon enhancements make TWF an attractive option even now. Conversely, there are no options that I know of that trigger off how much damage you do. Yet you want to roll all of the cost so that it only costs 1? Might as well make everyone into Drizzt since this becomes a no-brainer. EDIT: I just realized there ARE a couple of features of 3.x that reward PA inherently. The Massive Damage rule as well as Sunder/DR which all favour the guy wielding one weapon with power attack versus the guy wielding two weapons with the proposed uber TWF feat. Still doesn't change my mind that TWF would become like the "default" option. As for Spring Attack, it is a decent feat by itself as while it doesn't work in all builds, people that do need it such as monks and barbarians do get great use out of it. Similarly, any class that can manipulate the terrain so that everyone else/an opponent is considered to be in difficult terrain but its isn't itself would benefit immenself from Spring Attack. I think that is fine as is. Dodge and Mobility OTOH, er, those could be rolled into one and then people might actually consider the new fat by itself.
Clawhound 05-09-07, 09:03 AM	I believe that the "weak feat" theory has been shown to work poorly. With melee generally needing a bump, eliminating weak feats is a good first step. One should simply not have weak choices.
Steely_Dan 05-09-07, 09:23 AM	As always, I hereby remind people that many feats (Dodge and Mobility come to obvious mind) are intentionally weak/sucky. They are intended to be used to qualify people for really powerfull/cool prestige classes and other feats (Spring Attack/Whirlwind) I.E. You pay for the cool things by being forced to spend several feats on junk. And that is one of the inherently bad design decisions in 3rd edition. Thank god Star Wars: Saga Edition will be clearing up this sort of nonsense, and I suspect that the edition that shall not be named will follow suit.
Nadaka 05-09-07, 09:57 AM	I think only feats that are good by themselves don't need to be rolled into one. For example: Imporved initative by itself is a decent feat and a very popular one at that, whereas people only take Dodge to qualify for another feat. I disagree with rolling all the TWF feats into one. If I can do as much damage with one feat using PA with a normal sword as I can do using two normal weapons with one feat using the new uber TWF, then TWF is obviously the way to go a la 1E/2E. The problem is that there are a lot of options that only depend on how many attacks you hit with and NOT just a Rogue's Sneak attack bonus. For example, the tactical feat Stormguard Warrior's Combat Rhythm option and even simply weapon enhancements make TWF an attractive option even now. Conversely, there are no options that I know of that trigger off how much damage you do. Yet you want to roll all of the cost so that it only costs 1? Might as well make everyone into Drizzt since this becomes a no-brainer. Stuff that triggers off of damage? Knockback, Massive Damage (save or die), a few others. And really, twf isn't better than THF or S&S unless you have SA. Two handed weapons deal much more damage per attack (including AoO, standard attacks, charges, most martial maneuvers) and with a -2 from power attack it can equal to "bonus" damage you normally get out of TWF. Sword & Shield offers much higher defence scores than TWF as well. As for combat rythm? you take a -2 to hit for TWF and for what? a chance of +5 damage on your next turn? Or you could use a two handed weapon and power attack for 2 points for +4 and if your strength is higher than 13 you get another +1 or more to damage anyway (+1.5 str bonus). And I don't have to wait until the next turn, and I am far less likely to get my weapon disarmed or sundered due to two handed wielding and large sized sized weapon. Plus I only spent 1 feat on power attack while you spent 2 on TWF and stormgaurd warrior. The TWF feat chain is a chain where each additional feat in the chain is weaker than the last and even the first feat isn't all that good compared to similar options. The only stipulation needed to TWF as 1 feat from being to powerful is to limit Sneak attack damage on off hand attacks (unless the rogue invests another feat).
AllisterH 05-09-07, 10:49 AM	The complaint is that TWF doesn't do as much damage as a single PA (then again, PA isn't that GREAT if you actually do the math). However, the proposed uber TWF would enable a twf to do as much damage as a THF. My point is that if you can do X pts of damage with one feat using two weapons which is roughly the same as using PA for one weapon, then TWF starts easily becoming superior. As I mentioned in my edit, yes, there are things like Massive Damage and Sunder/DR which favour one massive damage but there are MORE things that favour "get hit a lot of times". Simply put, I'm not convinced that people have thought about the effects on the system either. For example, you compared Stormguard warrior + TWF to power attack. That's not what I'm saying. Stormguard warrior + PA is a weaker option than SW + TWF and there are too many hidden and no so hidden features of 3.x where this occurs. As well, it ignores there are more options dealing with PA as well. For example, from Complete Adventurer, you got Elusive Target and the various counters from Bo9S which work better against a PA foe than a TWF foe. True, it is easier to optimize PA (just get your STR score higher) but this is more a failing of system mastery as I've seen on the CO boards many obscene damage figures.
Nadaka 05-09-07, 11:24 AM	My point was that PA alone is a better damage option than TWF alone, and that PA alone is also a better damage option than TWF + SGW. A wielder of a large two handed weapon gets a +4 to hit on a disarms/sunders (attempts and defence) while a twfer gets a -4. Thats a difference of 8 on an opposed roll. There isn't much you can do to keep your weapon at that point. Seriously, TWF takes many feats to make TWF not quite as good as THF, and with the same number of feats spent the THF can be even better.
StevenO 05-09-07, 11:46 PM	Improved TWF and Greater TWF (one feat to become good at TWF and this one to gain itterative attacks) Spring Attack + Shoot on the Run* (both are attack while moving although you could add a rider -point blank shot- for ranged attacks) Forge Ring + Craft Miscellaneous Item Toughness + Improved (+3 hp with additional +1 for each level past 3rd) - an early boost with lasting benefits. Shield Proficiency + Tower Shield: But create new feat to expand/improve on use of the Tower Shield Medium + Heavy Armor Proficiency (not really but at least now we wouldn't have to complain about who can use Mithral Full Plate without problems.) I know there are more but those are the first ones I'd start looking at.
Zardnaar 05-10-07, 01:46 AM	Even with my "uber" TWF I still think THW is better most of the time. You need alot lower strength for Power Attack than dex for TWF. 2 magical weapns are alot more expensive than 1. THF is also better for most special attacks like sunder and disarm and vs damage reduction. Its also better when you don't get to do a full atttack. I've always thought dodge should just give you a +1 dodge bonus. None of this select an opponent crap.
ScipioX 05-10-07, 03:20 AM	I'll throw in with the single TWF feat is not too strong. The benefits of 2 handed fighting apply to every attack, including AoO's and standard actions and charges. TWF only applies to full attacks. So even if TWF winds up being slightly better (which is still arguable) than two handed fighting, its still only better when you make a full attack. Your game may vary, but I'd say full attacks only happen maybe 50% of the time tops. I don't think its overpowered for a rogue either. Just look at how it plays out in an actual game. I've seen lots of TWF rogues in action, and rarely does improved TWF come into play. First, rogues are too squishy to do a whole lot of full attacking. Second, rogue BAB combined with -2 from TWF means that their iterative attacks are going to miss most significant opponents. Third, the weak kind of opponents that a rogue can actually hit with iterative attacks usually don't have enough HP's to take several sneak attack hits. Fourth, the number of critters that are immune to sneak attack gets pretty big by the time improved two weapon fighting and its progeny come into play. So while I've seen lots of players say things like "OMG, my rogue can dish out a bazillion d6 damage per round!" I almost never see it happen. When a player does actually get in that rare situation where they can really go to town, be happy for them, because most of the time rogues are support characters.
navar100 05-10-07, 03:22 AM	In my group both the rogue and the druid took Dodge for the sake of Dodge. They really like the feat. They get fun out of it. I did too for my cleric in our first campaign. I like the feat.
Argo 05-10-07, 03:48 AM	I've played many Rogues over the years. Actually, nothing but Rogues. I have NEVER taken TWF. I have never seen a Rogue take TWF. In fact, I think TWF is a pretty poor choice for a Rogue. If you want someone to full attack and then hang around waiting to get hit, get a Fighter. The only reason I'm even considering taking it for my current character is so I can qualify for the feat Double Wand-Wielder, so I can shoot two wands at once and stay the hell out of melee.
Cantuse 05-10-07, 03:52 AM	A lot of the feats exist for NPCs as well. There are plenty of times where skill based feats make a lot more sense than anything else for an NPC. This can even be true of PC classes that need extremely high ranks in certain skills (eg Artificers and UMD). A great many of the 'weak' feats are extremely potent in the hands of NPCs, because they generally only have to 'exist' for one encounter, the encounter in which they are defeated. Game balance (in pretty much every game) consists of making you want and simultaneously not want a specific hand. Rolling all the TWF feats together essentially destroys both the balance on several levels: no more individuality, all TWF characters are the same no more agonizing over which feats to take, which is actually bad for the game (making decisions easy makes games boring). no more roleplaying (not every feat should be selected on the basis of its importance next to other feats). I disagree about virtually all of the feats being combined (especially for players): Improved Initiative factors into every single combat, Awareness improves two skills that can determine the outcome of every surprise encounter, and often plays into encounters that don't as well. Rolling TWF fighting feats into one actually hurts all other archetypes the most, (because now the TWF guy can still get power attack, cleave, etc... how does the big twohander guy manage to maintain his uniqueness?) Saying that dodge is a weak skill is the same thing as saying that having an animated light steel shield at first level is weak. Do you realize over the course of a character's life how often that shield might save him? And an animated shield doesn't even qualify him for better feats later. Mobility, as pointed out seems pointless when taken to qualify for Spring Attack, however, Mobility has many uses that weren't mentioned, such as attacking a character that is otherwise protected by another character, and negating their strategic defense. Shield proficiency should not include Tower shields by default; as virtually no players use them, and even then its one of the few defining qualities of the Fighter class, so this would hurt them. Some feats are just not as good as others. I don't see the problem, just don't take them; or talk to your DM about making new ones.
AllisterH 05-10-07, 07:05 AM	Heh. We were talking about combining feats but did anyone check out the new SAGA rules for Starwars. Apparently Shot on the Run is now combined with Spring Attack as one feat nammed, Running Attack appropriately. I believe they also folded the skills Spot/Listen as one skill, namely Perception.
Steely_Dan 05-10-07, 08:35 AM	We were talking about combining feats but did anyone check out the new SAGA rules for Starwars. I believe they also folded the skills Spot/Listen as one skill, namely Perception. Yep, they have folded Search + Spot + Sense Motive + Listen into Perception (I still think Sense Motive should be separate). Apparently they are also folding Balance + Escape Artist + Tumble into Acrobatics. But for some freakish reason they have not folded Climb + Jump + Swim into Athletics.
Optimized_Commoner 05-10-07, 08:42 AM	So you've taken both Dodge and Mobility without any interest in Spring Attack or the Shadowdancer PrC? I'm surprised, because I've never seen that happen. First character I ever made in 3e, before I learned to optimize I took Dodge and Mobility on their own because I was playing an acrobat-rogue and those two feats sounded acrobatic. I don't think I ever took spring-attack and hadn't even heard of prestige classes back at that time (I don't think the DMG was out yet). There you go, now you've "seen" it once.
starfire311 05-10-07, 09:05 AM	The TWF feat chain is a chain where each additional feat in the chain is weaker than the last and even the first feat isn't all that good compared to similar options. The only stipulation needed to TWF as 1 feat from being to powerful is to limit Sneak attack damage on off hand attacks (unless the rogue invests another feat). this is actually not true. In the chain, twf, itwf, gtwf, ptwf the strongest feat in it is itwf. It is kinda wierd like that. Anyway, I think that if you are going to improve the feats as such then we need to look at improving other feats How about these. metamagic feat Benefit: gain all metamagic feats. Craft magic item. Benefit: gain all craft feats General feat Benefit: gain all general feats.
Nadaka 05-10-07, 09:41 AM	A lot of the feats exist for NPCs as well. There are plenty of times where skill based feats make a lot more sense than anything else for an NPC. This can even be true of PC classes that need extremely high ranks in certain skills (eg Artificers and UMD). A great many of the 'weak' feats are extremely potent in the hands of NPCs, because they generally only have to 'exist' for one encounter, the encounter in which they are defeated. Game balance (in pretty much every game) consists of making you want and simultaneously not want a specific hand. Rolling all the TWF feats together essentially destroys both the balance on several levels: Have you ever done the math on TWF? No, you obviously have not. TWF even with all basic feats is still inferior to THF with a single feat investment. Then consider that after spending half a dozen feats on twf, the guy with a greatsword is still your equal, unless he spends those same half dozen -1 feats to improve his abilities. There are a very few ways to make TWF worthwile (having sneak attack, or ranger vs FE that the ranger put ALL of his FE bonuses against.) And these can be handled in exceptions in the combined feat. no more individuality, all TWF characters are the same there are still a dozen or more feats that build off of TWF even after combining the basics. no more agonizing over which feats to take, which is actually bad for the game (making decisions easy makes games boring). what? how does having all feats being useful and balanced mean you don't have to agonize over your decisions? If anything it will make those decisions harder because you don't have to sift through the trash feats. no more roleplaying (not every feat should be selected on the basis of its importance next to other feats). Thats the most rediculous arguement ever. How is increasing the level of balance in options reducing roleplaying? If anything it makes every choice more valid by letting you build the character you want without feeling like you are letting your party down. I disagree about virtually all of the feats being combined (especially for players): Improved Initiative factors into every single combat, Awareness improves two skills that can determine the outcome of every surprise encounter, and often plays into encounters that don't as well. I am actually going to agree with you here, though I think the bonus to skills from feats should generally be increases (+3/+3 and +5 respectively). Rolling TWF fighting feats into one actually hurts all other archetypes the most, (because now the TWF guy can still get power attack, cleave, etc... how does the big twohander guy manage to maintain his uniqueness?) So you are saying that TWF is supposed to be pointless and meaningless compared to THF? That it is supposed to be a trap for the math impaired? gotcha. Saying that dodge is a weak skill is the same thing as saying that having an animated light steel shield at first level is weak. Do you realize over the course of a character's life how often that shield might save him? And an animated shield doesn't even qualify him for better feats later. Dude an animated light steel shield gives a +2 shield bonus to AC vs all attacks. Dodge gives +1 dodge to AC vs 1 opponent. Dodge is laughably weak. Mobility, as pointed out seems pointless when taken to qualify for Spring Attack, however, Mobility has many uses that weren't mentioned, such as attacking a character that is otherwise protected by another character, and negating their strategic defense. Shield proficiency should not include Tower shields by default; as virtually no players use them, and even then its one of the few defining qualities of the Fighter class, so this would hurt them. Are you honestly trying to claim that improving the general power and quality of feats is going to hurt the fighter? The class that gets no class abilities but feats? Let me take back my comment on the most rediculous arguement ever, I just found a new one. Some feats are just not as good as others. I don't see the problem, just don't take them; or talk to your DM about making new ones. :twitch: BALANCE! Every choice should be a good choice, every option should be more or less equal. This way you can create the character you want without feeling like you are gimping your party. Especially when it comes to things like feats when there is no way to actually change them later (not counting retraining).
Steely_Dan 05-10-07, 09:49 AM	Sorry – something bizarre happened to this post.
AllisterH 05-10-07, 09:57 AM	Yep, they have folded Search + Spot + Sense Motive + Listen into Perception (I still think Sense Motive should be separate). Apparently they are also folding Balance + Escape Artist + Tumble into Acrobatics. But for some freakish reason they have not folded Climb + Jump + Swim into Athletics. I can see why Balance, Tumble and Escape Artist can be folded into one. Really, any circus performer/gymnast I've seen that has one of the three pretty much has the other two as well. Don't you get a synergy bonus anyway from these skills? Climb Jump and Swim however? Eh, I don't see how any of those 3 are linked. I know a couple of rock climbers that can't swim for beans and neither are making their nation's long jump teams either. Sense Motive should be separate I agree though. Really, the difference between Search and Spot isn't big enough to require two different skills and Listen has usually been folded into Perception in other RPGs. Sense motive though....definitely should be separate.
Steely_Dan 05-10-07, 10:16 AM	I can see why Balance, Tumble and Escape Artist can be folded into one. Really, any circus performer/gymnast I've seen that has one of the three pretty much has the other two as well. Oh, I agree, I definitely think Acrobatics (Balance + Escape Artist + Climb) is a great idea. You have got me thinking that combining Climb, Jump and Swim into one skill might not be such a good idea, realistically, but for ease of play in a game?
Clawhound 05-10-07, 02:35 PM	Oh, I agree, I definitely think Acrobatics (Balance + Escape Artist + Climb) is a great idea. You have got me thinking that combining Climb, Jump and Swim into one skill might not be such a good idea, realistically, but for ease of play in a game? These are all related as major body motions. They are also thematically related as ... well ... what athletic people are supposed to be good at.
Zardnaar 05-10-07, 04:55 PM	Try plaing a fighter over level 8 just using the PHB. Its alot better with the Complete Warrior and PHB2. I can't remember the last ime someone in our party took TWF and even the rogues have given up on it. Its unbelievably bad for a variety of reasons. A rogue with TWF is effectivly using wizard BAB up until level 10.
Cantuse 05-11-07, 01:29 AM	Nadaka, can we just agree to disagree on our perspectives on feats. I personally don't think TWF should be as good as THF and you feel otherwise; amongst other things. Let's just leave it at that.
navar100 05-11-07, 02:25 AM	I've played many Rogues over the years. Actually, nothing but Rogues. I have NEVER taken TWF. I have never seen a Rogue take TWF. In fact, I think TWF is a pretty poor choice for a Rogue. If you want someone to full attack and then hang around waiting to get hit, get a Fighter. The only reason I'm even considering taking it for my current character is so I can qualify for the feat Double Wand-Wielder, so I can shoot two wands at once and stay the hell out of melee. Heh, our rogue can't get enough out of two-weapon fighting. He loves it!
LordLongshadow 05-11-07, 02:33 AM	First character I ever made in 3e, before I learned to optimize I took Dodge and Mobility on their own because I was playing an acrobat-rogue and those two feats sounded acrobatic. I don't think I ever took spring-attack and hadn't even heard of prestige classes back at that time (I don't think the DMG was out yet). There you go, now you've "seen" it once. (Sanding on Soapbox) I believe that both of this post and the whole concept of this thread show a problem that some players have with the game. That problem is optimization. Don't get me wrong. In 3.5 you have to plan ahead, but when you want to start bunching feats together because you want more for less or you think some feats are useless (which is the vibe I am getting, please correct me if I am wrong), that is when optimizing turns bad. To think that a feat that gives you a +4 bonus against AoA's (Mobility) is just a springboard to greener pastures and has no use on it's own seems wrong to me. There are feats that have made less potent (like Toughness), but I dare say that not one feat in the PHB isn't worthwhile by itself. In optimizing, all characters start to look the same, except for the names (like Brian's Wizards in the Knights of the Dinner Table magazine), and a lot of good feats get overlooked.:tiphat:
AllisterH 05-11-07, 03:11 AM	(Sanding on Soapbox) I believe that both of this post and the whole concept of this thread show a problem that some players have with the game. That problem is optimization. Don't get me wrong. In 3.5 you have to plan ahead, but when you want to start bunching feats together because you want more for less or you think some feats are useless (which is the vibe I am getting, please correct me if I am wrong), that is when optimizing turns bad. To think that a feat that gives you a +4 bonus against AoA's (Mobility) is just a springboard to greener pastures and has no use on it's own seems wrong to me. There are feats that have made less potent (like Toughness), but I dare say that not one feat in the PHB isn't worthwhile by itself. In optimizing, all characters start to look the same, except for the names (like Brian's Wizards in the Knights of the Dinner Table magazine), and a lot of good feats get overlooked.:tiphat: It depends on the feat though. For example, I disagree quite strongly with theotherdraxen since as you mentioned, roll too many feats into one, you get all characters looking the same a la core-only Fighters. However, take Mobility for example. You take this feat and you get a Dodge bonus to your AC when moving out/within threatened areas. At first glance, this _IS_ a decent feat since AoO are a big part of the game. However, for the character classes that utilize movement (and even those that don't), the Tumble Skill makes more sense to take. That's a problem since really, you only get 7 feats to make your character unique and a guy who just pumps up his tumble skill will be better than you and still have a feat to make his character different. We basically have a skill that invalidates a feat which makes no sense really especially given that skills come BEFORE feats in the PHB.
Splendide 05-11-07, 03:49 AM	Power Attack + Silent Spell Craft Wondrous Item + Alertness Close-Quarters Fighting + Education
Steely_Dan 05-11-07, 03:54 AM	since AoO are a big part of the game. But most players, and DMs, are usually smart enough to avoid them. I think in the little over a year my campaign has been cooking along there have been about a total of 5 AoO, total, on both sides.
Clawhound 05-11-07, 09:57 AM	As a DM, I make sure that some creatures provoke AoO's. Not everyone is combat smart. Dumb creatures or big-toughs either don't understand AoO's or don't consider them a threat. This keeps AoO's in the game, and rewards players who chose AoO oriented feats. I expect my characters to rollplay their foibles. I expect myself to role-play the foibles and mistakes of the monsters.
Cantuse 05-11-07, 10:39 AM	As a DM, I make sure that some creatures provoke AoO's. Not everyone is combat smart. Dumb creatures or big-toughs either don't understand AoO's or don't consider them a threat. This keeps AoO's in the game, and rewards players who chose AoO oriented feats. I expect my characters to rollplay their foibles. I expect myself to role-play the foibles and mistakes of the monsters. That's why I hated Final Fantasy Tactics, the damn Chocobos had the same strategic genius of the BBG.
Steely_Dan 05-11-07, 11:07 AM	As a DM, I make sure that some creatures provoke AoO's. Not everyone is combat smart. Dumb creatures or big-toughs either don't understand AoO's or don't consider them a threat. This keeps AoO's in the game, and rewards players who chose AoO oriented feats. I expect my characters to rollplay their foibles. I expect myself to role-play the foibles and mistakes of the monsters. I agree with everything you've posted, and especially if a player has invested in AoO based feats, he shouldn't get the shaft.
LordLongshadow 05-11-07, 11:38 AM	It depends on the feat though. For example, I disagree quite strongly with theotherdraxen since as you mentioned, roll too many feats into one, you get all characters looking the same a la core-only Fighters. However, take Mobility for example. You take this feat and you get a Dodge bonus to your AC when moving out/within threatened areas. At first glance, this _IS_ a decent feat since AoO are a big part of the game. However, for the character classes that utilize movement (and even those that don't), the Tumble Skill makes more sense to take. That's a problem since really, you only get 7 feats to make your character unique and a guy who just pumps up his tumble skill will be better than you and still have a feat to make his character different. We basically have a skill that invalidates a feat which makes no sense really especially given that skills come BEFORE feats in the PHB. You make a good point. I believe that IF you have the skill points, the tumble skill is better than the mobility feat. Although, if you are playing a fighter who favors dex over stregnth, you do not have the skill points to build up Tumble as a cross class skill. So dodge and Mobility might be a better choice.
Dheran 05-12-07, 10:59 PM	Although, if you are playing a fighter who favors dex over stregnth, you do not have the skill points to build up Tumble as a cross class skill. So dodge and Mobility might be a better choice. That's the basic problem with Dodge + Mobility: poor choices for characters with good skills, yet prerequisites for Spring Attack and the Shadowdancer Prc. Spring Attack is a feat that characters with low HP need in order to have a chance in melee. As for Shadowdancer, the Hide and Move Silently requirement ensures that only classes that have those skills (Bard, Monk, and Rogue for core classes) will qualify for entry. Yet those classes also have Tumble and no or few bonus feats. For both Spring Attack and the Shadowdancer Prc, Dodge and Mobility are sucky prerequisite feats designed to limit the choices of feat-poor classes. Pretty much the only way to make these work is to take both of them -- the feat and the PrC. The result is a lot of characters that look pretty much alike. Feat chains with sucky prerequisites penalize flexibility in character development. There are way too many feats, yet too little flexibility in feat choices except for classes with bonus feats. Combining sucky feats will notch up the power a bit, but that's been happening with every single one of the dozens of supplements that WotC has put out. Since Fighters, by virtue of their many feats, will benefit the most, that strikes me as a pretty good idea.
Johnny_Angel 05-12-07, 11:19 PM	This is an old and very outdated argument. To make a proper analogy to it: The Wizard, to get the potent spell he wants at a later level, must always keep these other two sucky low level spells in memory, eating up his spell slots. Furthermore, these two low level spells never improve with his level, they just cost spell slots and never become useful. So...how would your mage like it if to learn Fly he always had to keep Prestidigitation and Dancing Lights in memory? That's right, he could NEVER unmemorize them. Now repeat with all the 'cool' or 'powerful' spells. I'm sure I can come up with some sucky or irrelevant spells as qualifiers that he must always occupy his lower level slots with. Even something as dumb as "To Learn Meteor Swarm, you must always have Burning Hands, Scorching Ray, Fireball, Wall of Fire, Summon Fire Elemental, and Delayed Blast Fireball in memory at ALL TIMES. Furthermore, you may never unlearn Meteor Swarm and replace it with another spell." In short, you become a gimped sorceror. And you realize that argument really is pretty dumb. Feats are permanent choices, and should be valid at all points of a player's career. Being sucky now for greatness later is idiocy. Dodge is a weak feat. Mobility is a feat you take only for Spring Attack. If you really want to avoid AoO from movement, you just tumble. And if you are spring attacking, you don't take AoO from the target anyways! Spring Attack is nice, but only useful on builds based around single attacks. If you want full attack actions, or you don't have at least 40' of move, Spring Attack doesn't work very well. Whirlwind Attack is often a waste of a full attack action and highly situational. It doesn't stack with Cleave anymore, and rarely do you do enough dmg to drop something with it except very low level mooks. It'd be great at level 2-4...after that, it becomes worth less and less, since a good Fireball is more effective and hits more stuff. Improved Whirlwind is somewhat nicer, but again its based around everything being around you and willing to stay nicely cluttered up. Like normal whirlwind, you are unlikely to drop something, which means if you want to max out whirlwind's dmg, you end up sitting in the middle of a lot of enemies who then proceed to beat on you with their own full attacks. None of these is a good reason why choosing Dodge has to suck. ===Aelryinth Actually, now that you mention it...that's not a bad idea. I think it would be very interesting if -instead of spell slots- wizards had to learn something similar to how feat trees work. Basically it would work similar to how epic spell seeds work, but it would be a lot more restricted. Say for example you learn the "fire feat" and then you learn the "touch feat"; you could then learn how to do burning hands. Wizards would have to keep what they learned; sorcerors would have more free reign to combine the "feats" they learned into various spells to better illustrate the innate casting ability they have. For example: a sorceror with the same two "feats" the aforemention wizard has might be able to cast burning hands or a similar spell made from the same "feats." Wizards would still learn more "feats" but would have to prepare/memorize which ones they want for each day; sorcerors would learn less "feats," but they could combine them on the fly to produce various effects.
Nathreet 05-13-07, 04:42 AM	I noticed the following feats were mentioned as if they were weak, when they are really some of the best core feats: improved critical: typically increases average base (but not total) damage by 10% (15% w/ rapier) dodge: +1 AC is a lot (see below), usually only 1-2 enemies are attacking you specifically, making it easy to pick a dodge target improved initiative: act ~20-30% sooner in a round; like getting an extra 1/4 round on average. Actually does suck in a long combat, but great in short ones. weapon focus: +1 AB is a lot (see below) combat expertise: extremely powerful (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=846186). Perhaps the strongest core feat I've seen for physical combat, if your character has a high AB and AC. weapon finesse: 1 or more AB is a lot (see below) weapon focus, weapon specialization, greater WF, greater WS: see below On AB and AC: Let's say you hit 50% of the time. Then, 1 point of AB or AC will increase/decrease the number of hits you give/take by 10%. Other feats won't do so much for you. WS and greater WS: 4 damage is usually more than 10% of the damage you deal per hit (until higher levels), and the other good feats only improve your power by 5-10%. Power attack: People keep mentioning power attack as if it were the standard of good. It's really quite mediocre. 1 AB is worth almost as much as 2 damage, sometimes more. You get more damage per hit, but you get less hits. In the end it evens out and you hardly gain anything from this feat. Sometimes it even makes things worse. At higher levels it often makes things worse. I've done numerous test battles & sims and power attack always comes out sucky. Even dodge works far better in combat.
AllisterH 05-13-07, 06:36 AM	There's nothing wrong Improved Init IMHO and frankly most people on this thread think its fine as is. Then there's something like the head scratching that is going on with Craft Rod/Wonderous Item/Magic Arms and Armour and Forge Ring. There's a clear difference in function/purpose/use between a wand, a potion, a scroll and a staff so I can see why they require different creation methods, but Forge Ring and Craft Wondrous Item? Craft Rod and Magic Items and Armour? Personally, IMC, using metamagic as a basis, I ruled that only rods can hold Feats which gives them a clear basis
Relic 05-13-07, 04:15 PM	The only feat that I have combined is Mounted Combat and Ride-by Attack. I figure if you spend all the time learning on how to fight on a horse then moving, attacking, and riding are a huge part of that. Besides, rarely is Mounted Combat taken within my group and combining the two feats gives a little reward to the player that does, indeed, take the feat.
starfire311 05-13-07, 11:24 PM	The only feat that I have combined is Mounted Combat and Ride-by Attack. I figure if you spend all the time learning on how to fight on a horse then moving, attacking, and riding are a huge part of that. Besides, rarely is Mounted Combat taken within my group and combining the two feats gives a little reward to the player that does, indeed, take the feat. interesting, my group tends to try and abuse mounted combat as much as possible. We had a halfing outrider that was tearing encoutners apart, it was rediculous... note never let halfing outrider get a battle trained cheetah mount.
Optimator 05-13-07, 11:43 PM	I think the TWF feats should be combined woh thw two-weapon defense feats.
navar100 05-14-07, 04:25 AM	It depends on the feat though. For example, I disagree quite strongly with theotherdraxen since as you mentioned, roll too many feats into one, you get all characters looking the same a la core-only Fighters. However, take Mobility for example. You take this feat and you get a Dodge bonus to your AC when moving out/within threatened areas. At first glance, this _IS_ a decent feat since AoO are a big part of the game. However, for the character classes that utilize movement (and even those that don't), the Tumble Skill makes more sense to take. That's a problem since really, you only get 7 feats to make your character unique and a guy who just pumps up his tumble skill will be better than you and still have a feat to make his character different. We basically have a skill that invalidates a feat which makes no sense really especially given that skills come BEFORE feats in the PHB. Dedicated warriors in heavy armor may want to attack a particular foe. They may want to attack who they think is the toughest foe. They want to get pass the mooks. With their already high AC, the extra +4 Mobility grants means they most likely have little to fear from the mooks as they move through theatened areas to take on the foe they want. As an interesting strategy, they might even purposely move through a threatened area to provoke AoO with Mobiliy to protect them. Then, another party member in the threatened area can do something that would normally provoke AoO (cast a spell, drink a potion) and not have to worry about any AoO at all, in cases where the bad guy does not have Combat Reflexes.
Big_Mac 05-14-07, 03:22 PM	I am not so sure that I agree that some feats should be sombined into 1 feat. The 2 issues with feats is that they should instead grow in power like spells do (where appropriate) for example. Dodge +1 against single creature for every 3 level up to a max of +5. the other issue is that many feats are to general and anyone can have them. I think feats should be more class restrictive since D&D is a class based system.