Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Slimgauge 03-12-07, 12:17 PM	A stock Heavy Warhorse comes with 4 HD and the feats Endurance and Run. A paladin's warhorse gains HD as the paladin gains levels. At level 15 and above, the paladin's warhorse gains 8 HD, giving it a total of 12. According to the SRD, a creature can have 1 + (1/3 HD) feats. Assuming the two stock feats are fixed, the paladin's mount will get a feat when the paladin obtains him (at level 5), another feat when the paladin advances to level 11, and a third when the paladin advances to level 15. What would the best feat choices be ? (assuming nothing really silly) Would the best choices change if the mount is given the celestial template ? (since the celestial template allows the mount to smite, the feats extra smite or improved smite become possible).
paladin2019 03-12-07, 01:21 PM	Except the description of the class ability explicitly states that mounts, familiars and animal companions only gain the benefits listed in the class descriptions when they gain hit dice, not the standard ones a creature gains when it advances.
Richmud 03-12-07, 01:35 PM	Except the description of the class ability explicitly states that mounts, familiars and animal companions only gain the benefits listed in the class descriptions when they gain hit dice, not the standard ones a creature gains when it advances. I've always interpreted thats as only referring to size increases and stat adjustments not feats, thats also how I've seen most people on the boards interpret it. I must admit I'm not certain though and can't actually prove my point As for feats possible improved overrun could be useful, and that would require power attack
Slimgauge 03-12-07, 01:37 PM	Except the description of the class ability explicitly states that mounts, familiars and animal companions only gain the benefits listed in the class descriptions when they gain hit dice, not the standard ones a creature gains when it advances. Oh, really ? I'm looking at the online SRD right now (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm#thePaladinsMount) and it states in the "Bonus HD" section "The mount gains additional skill points or feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice." This also appears in the Player's Handbook, p45 in the left-hand column about 3/4s of the way down the page. If you've got a source that says differently, can you tell me how to find it ?
ClementWillowbreaker 03-12-07, 01:38 PM	The mount gains additional skill points or feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster's Hit Dice. The feat that lets you make one 90 degree turn while running or charging (Fleet of Foot?) is very good, and fits with the horse's existing feats. Powerful Charge is another good one.
Slimgauge 03-12-07, 01:48 PM	"Fleet of Foot" from Complete Warrior would be great, *EXCEPT* that it requires Dex 15 as a pre-requisite. A standard Heavy Warhorse has dex 13, and being a paladin's mount doesn't boost dex, only int, str, natural armor, and HD.
ClementWillowbreaker 03-12-07, 01:52 PM	Tragedy. You can fix that by buying [insert whatever the glove-equivalent is for horses] of Dexterity +2 for your mount, which works just fine feat- and mechanical-wise.
Krusk 03-12-07, 03:10 PM	Does the warhorse gain stat points for increasing in hit die? if so that fixes the dex problem. if not the item is a more expensive way.
paladin2019 03-12-07, 03:12 PM	Oh, really ? I'm looking at the online SRD right now (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm#thePaladinsMount) and it states in the "Bonus HD" section "The mount gains additional skill points or feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice." This also appears in the Player's Handbook, p45 in the left-hand column about 3/4s of the way down the page. If you've got a source that says differently, can you tell me how to find it ? Terribly sorry, I seem to be mistaken. Carry on then.
Slimgauge 03-12-07, 03:40 PM	Does the warhorse gain stat points for increasing in hit die? Possibly. Again refering to the online hyperlinked SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#abilityScoreImprov ement) "Ability Score Improvement Treat monster Hit Dice the same as character level for determining ability score increases. This only applies to Hit Dice increases, monsters do not gain ability score increases for levels they "already reached" with their racial Hit Dice, since these adjustments are included in their basic ability scores." If I'm understanding this correctly, when the paladin reaches 8th level and his warhorse thus gains +4HD over the 4HD it started with, it would be equivalent to a character reaching fourth level and it would therefor get a stat increase. Since it needs +2, it would have to wait until the paladin reaches lvl 15 for +8HD to generate the two stat increases it needs to take "Fleet of Foot". Since I read people complaining of how easily the mounts are killed, I'm thinking I'd take improved toughness for the first mount feat and boost con when the stat increases come, unless someone comes up with a more interesting feat progression for "Mr. Ed".
wonlee76 03-12-07, 03:51 PM	Improved Natural Attack could be somewhat helpful if its a horse getting into fights. IUS + Improved Grapple (can't help having at least 1 OOTS reference when we talk about a paaldin's mount). Die Hard + Improved Toughness: Makes the mount a lot more sturdy now. Lightning Reflexes: I don't think a horse's reflex save is all that good due to relatively low dexterity so buffing up the reflex save so that evasion kicks in more often isn't a bad idea.
danielinthewolvesden 03-12-07, 03:55 PM	I Die Hard + Improved Toughness: Makes the mount a lot more sturdy now. Lightning Reflexes: I don't think a horse's reflex save is all that good due to relatively low dexterity so buffing up the reflex save so that evasion kicks in more often isn't a bad idea. Right. Survival type feats.
Argaud 03-12-07, 04:08 PM	Right. Survival type feats. Like light and medium armor proficiency. :)
Slimgauge 03-12-07, 04:15 PM	Lightning Reflexes: I don't think a horse's reflex save is all that good due to relatively low dexterity so buffing up the reflex save so that evasion kicks in more often isn't a bad idea. The mount already gets Improved Evasion and can use the paladin's base save bonus. Too bad reflex isn't a paladin's strong save. Again quoting from the SRD. Improved Evasion (Ex) When subjected to an attack that normally allows a Reflex saving throw for half damage, a mount takes no damage if it makes a successful saving throw and half damage if the saving throw fails. Share Saving Throws For each of its saving throws, the mount uses its own base save bonus or the paladin’s, whichever is higher. The mount applies its own ability modifiers to saves, and it doesn’t share any other bonuses on saves that the master might have. If I'm already hanging anklets of dex +2 (provided the GM allows the things, I've not played this particular Greyhawke before so I don't know how hard it'll be to get hold of such things) on Dobbin (or whatever his name turns out to be) and can get hold of some Horshoes of the Zephyr, Improved Toughness and Fleet of Foot are looking mighty tasty ...
Slimgauge 03-12-07, 04:18 PM	Like light and medium armor proficiency. :) The warhorse is "trained for war", so it comes with those. See this thread, and others like it. http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-553577 http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:5TKn160eoVcJ:boards1.wiza rds.com/archive/index.php/t-608546.html+site://boards1.wizards.com+animal+armor+profici ency+barding&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us
paladin2019 03-12-07, 04:25 PM	Improved Natural Attack could be somewhat helpful if its a horse getting into fights. IUS + Improved Grapple (can't help having at least 1 OOTS reference when we talk about a paaldin's mount).Is Improved Unarmed Strike necessary for Improved Grapple given the creature's natutal attacks? Or am I extrapolating houserules again?
wonlee76 03-12-07, 04:34 PM	Is Improved Unarmed Strike necessary for Improved Grapple given the creature's natutal attacks? Or am I extrapolating houserules again? The simple RAW interpretation would be, Improved Grapple lists IUS as a pre-requisite. Horses don't have IUS. Therefore, they need to take the feat to take Improved Grapple. Houserule wise: I've seen at least a few posts on the boards that indicate that some DM's skip the IUS pre-req where its a creature that has some form of natural attack. Can't comment on how prevalent that house rule is.
wonlee76 03-12-07, 04:38 PM	The mount already gets Improved Evasion and can use the paladin's base save bonus. Too bad reflex isn't a paladin's strong save. Again quoting from the SRD. I believe Reflex is a good save for animals so chances are, the horse will have a better reflex save than a paladin's save. I still stand by the suggestion of picking up Lightning Reflexes as a feat. To be quite honest, there really aren't that many feats that work well with a warhorse anyways. Loads of magical items could be made to help a horse but just not that many feats to pick from so having a slight boost to reflex can't hurt.
Slimgauge 03-12-07, 04:46 PM	Is Improved Unarmed Strike necessary for Improved Grapple given the creature's natutal attacks? Or am I extrapolating houserules again? If *I* was the DM, I'd say a creature without the ability to grasp can't take Improved Grapple. The warhorse's natural weapons cause it to be considered ARMED for most purposes including threatening squares. (SRD Ref: Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack—generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm). Refer to the individual monster descriptions. ) If I give it the celestial template, the natural attacks are considered magic weapons as well. If the purpose of giving these two feats was to make it very hard for enemies to grapple the horse, I'd say "Close Quarters Fighting" from Complete Warrior does a better job and uses only one feat. Without quoting it, if you have this feat you get an AoO against attempts to start a grapple even if the grappler has a feat that says you don't get one. If you hit with your AoO, and the grappler has no grapple feats, the grapple automatically fails. If you hit and the grappler HAS grapple feats, the amount of damage you do with your AoO is also treated as an addition to your opposed roll. Of course if you miss, you're SOL anyway.
Richmud 03-12-07, 05:24 PM	If *I* was the DM, I'd say a creature without the ability to grasp can't take Improved Grapple. The warhorse's natural weapons cause it to be considered ARMED for most purposes including threatening squares. Well here is an example of a grappling horse: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html
Slimgauge 03-12-07, 06:08 PM	Yes, but is that an IMPROVED grapple (for wich the Improved Unarmed Strike is a prerequisite) ? And thank you, I'd forgotten all about that strip. Rather blurs the line between grapple and trample if you ask me.
FrostHammer 03-12-07, 07:39 PM	The build of your horse depends on the build of your paladin. My paladin is a charger, and sicne I'll want tobe charging as much as possible on my mount, my mount might as well take advantage of charging as well, so I have my mount the standard Power Attack, Improved Bullrush, Shocktrooper, Leap Attack feats.
Argaud 03-12-07, 08:05 PM	The warhorse is "trained for war", so it comes with those. See this thread, and others like it. http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-553577 http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:5TKn160eoVcJ:boards1.wiza rds.com/archive/index.php/t-608546.html+site://boards1.wizards.com+animal+armor+profici ency+barding&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us A paladin's mount is not an animal and can't learn 'tricks'. It is an intelligent creature and needs feats to fight in armor.
FrostHammer 03-12-07, 08:09 PM	Not if the armor has no ACP...
Argaud 03-12-07, 08:24 PM	Not if the armor has no ACP... Yes of course. Mithril chainshirt barding seems popular among paladin mounts too :) But they do need a couple feats to wear mithril plate, which gives them 4 more valuable AC points.
Slimgauge 03-12-07, 08:41 PM	A paladin's mount is not an animal and can't learn 'tricks'. It is an intelligent creature and needs feats to fight in armor. I must disagree. Here's a quote from the SRD. A paladin’s mount is treated as a magical beast, not an animal, for the purpose of all effects that depend on its type (though it retains an animal’s HD, base attack bonus, saves, skill points, and feats). If it had the skill/feat/equivalent as an animal, it would retain it as a magical beast.
Argaud 03-12-07, 08:58 PM	I must disagree. Here's a quote from the SRD. If it had the skill/feat/equivalent as an animal, it would retain it as a magical beast. Why is that disagreeing? It says it clearly: it is not an animal. Tricks are not feats. A paladin's mount can't learn tricks.
Slimgauge 03-12-07, 09:07 PM	Why is that disagreeing? It says it clearly: it is not an animal. Tricks are not feats. A paladin's mount can't learn tricks. It doesn't need to learn tricks. It never lost the armor proficiency it had when it was still a normal animal, despite now being treated as a magical beast. "it retains an animal’s HD, base attack bonus, saves, skill points, and feats" is the operative part. If it knew how to wear barding without penalty before being converted into a magical beast, either as a feat or a skill or the nebulous "trained for war" undefined attribute, it doesn't lose that.
Argaud 03-12-07, 09:49 PM	It doesn't need to learn tricks. It never lost the armor proficiency it had when it was still a normal animal, despite now being treated as a magical beast. "it retains an animal’s HD, base attack bonus, saves, skill points, and feats" is the operative part. If it knew how to wear barding without penalty before being converted into a magical beast, either as a feat or a skill or the nebulous "trained for war" undefined attribute, it doesn't lose that. It doesn't retains tricks. Actually probably it never had them, since it is not an animal that suddenly transforms into a magical creature. The mount is an intelligent native from the outer planes ("a paladin may magically call her mount from the celestial realms in which it resides").
Slimgauge 03-12-07, 10:07 PM	It doesn't retains tricks. Actually probably it never had them, since it is not an animal that suddenly transforms into a magical creature. The mount is an intelligent native from the outer planes ("a paladin may magically call her mount from the celestial realms in which it resides"). You are correct in that a pre-existing animal does not transform. I'm talking about the process of applying the paladin's mount changes specified by the SRD to a pre-existing animal design, be it a riding dog, a war-pony, a war-horse, or something else. Your position seems to be that animal armor proficiencies are either a feat (they can be in the case of animals not already trained for war) or a trick in the 'handle animal' skill sense. Nowhere are they detailed as a defined trick. I don't want to rehash the threads I referenced already. Suffice it to say my position is that if the animal chosen as the base for a paladin's mount had armor proficiencies (from whatever source, feats, skills, tricks, or being 'trained for war') before applying the extra hit die, type change to magical beast, etc. (and I think it's clear that a warhorse did) then it still has them. Feel free to believe otherwise. Now can we get this thread back on track please ? Nobody's suggested the Mobility feat or Combat Expertise. Is there a drawback to them that I'm not seeing ?
Slimgauge 03-12-07, 10:12 PM	I have my mount the standard Power Attack, Improved Bullrush, Shocktrooper, Leap Attack feats. Ummm ... That's four feats. There's only three open feat slots, unless I'm missing something here ...:confused:
FrostHammer 03-12-07, 11:35 PM	Oh, I got to pick all the feats for my mount. Since your warhorse isn't really a typical warhorse, it doesn't need to have the stadnard warhorse feats.
JulesCARV 03-12-07, 11:42 PM	If your party doesn't have someone who can track, track can be handy. If you can get your horse to become psionically focused, wild talent, up the walls, and speed of thought could be cool, so that your mount can run more quickly, run up walls, and such. :)
Goreg Skullcrusher 03-12-07, 11:48 PM	Open-Minded isn't a bad choice, given the horse gets a piddly 1 skill point per level (unless you dump the stat increases on Int). You can even pick up some skill tricks this way. Dash for the lightly armored horse works well too, it gives you even more impressive range on an open battlefield. Nobody's suggested the Mobility feat or Combat Expertise. Is there a drawback to them that I'm not seeing ? Good luck getting that 13 Int for Combat Expertise. More worrisome would be getting an item that improves the horses' Int. Given that Int is often the dump stat for the paladin, you run into the very real possibility of your mount being smarter than the rider. :eek:
ClementWillowbreaker 03-12-07, 11:54 PM	Open-Minded isn't a bad choice, given the horse gets a piddly 1 skill point per level (unless you dump the stat increases on Int). +1 stat per 4 HD is one of the benefits that mounts don't get for their bonus HD. They get Str and Int by the table instead.
Goreg Skullcrusher 03-13-07, 12:02 AM	+1 stat per 4 HD is one of the benefits that mounts don't get for their bonus HD. They get Str and Int by the table instead. Hrm, you seem to be right. That only further complicates obtaining Combat Expertise for the mount. It doesn't however eliminate the chance that the horse can be superior at a game of chess than its rider. :D
Slimgauge 03-13-07, 01:17 AM	Good luck getting that 13 Int for Combat Expertise. Knew there was a reason, thanks ! Mount's INT tops out at 9 when the Paladin reaches lvl 15.
Argaud 03-13-07, 07:27 AM	More worrisome would be getting an item that improves the horses' Int. Given that Int is often the dump stat for the paladin, you run into the very real possibility of your mount being smarter than the rider. :eek: Happens to sorcerers with their familiars all the time :)
Slimgauge 03-13-07, 02:28 PM	Here's a thought for the skill points (few as they are). The rules for Teamwork in PH2 specifically allow paladin's mounts to become part of a team (page 158, top righthand column). The "Crowded Charge" teamwork benefit requires each member to have 1 rank in Jump, and a leader to have 8. Put one rank in Survival, and the mount can participate in the "Camp Routine" teamwork benefit. I can't see a Paladin or his mount participating in a "Cunning Ambush" or "Circle of Blades". "Massed Charge" requires 1 rank of Balance for team members but isn't really all that usefull. Otherwise, feats for a mount seem to fall into three categories; Mobility, Survivability and Attack Mobility Feats: dodge (+1 AC vs specified foe) => mobility (+4 AC against AoO) Leap of the Heavens (need 4 ranks in Jump, +5 to jump) Fleet of Foot (need +2 dex, may corner during charges) Survivability Feats: Saving throw improvement feats Endurance => Iron Will(PH) (+2 to Will Saves) Endurance => Iron Will(PH) => Indominable Soul(PH2) (make two will saves, use higher) Endurance => Steadfast Determination (PH2) (use CON mod to WILL saves) Lightning Reflexes (PH) (+2 to Reflex Saves) AC or HP improvement Improved Toughness (CW) +1 hp / HD Improved Natural Armor(SRD) +1 natural armor bonus (can be taken multiple!) Eyes in the Back of Your Head (CW) (Can't be flanked) This is good if you go plunging into crowded formations for melee. Attack Feats: Co-Ordinated Strike (+1 to hit if you and your mount attack same target) Natural Weapon Affinity (+1 attack with natural weapons) Improved Natural Attack (Increase natural damage one step (hoof => 1d8, bite 1d6)) PowerAttack => Improved Overrun => Brutal Strike (sickens target) Powerful Charge (MH) (+2d6 on charge for a Large Creature) => Greater Powerful Charge(MH) (+3d6 on charge (Large Creature treated as Huge)) Dodge => Mobility => Spring Attack I'm leaning toward a hybrid, take Improved Toughness to start, then Powerful Charge when the Paladin reaches lvl 11, and Fleet of Foot upon reaching lvl 15, provided the mount has accumlated +2 dex by then.
Slimgauge 03-16-07, 12:25 PM	More potentially interesting options: Wizards published an on-line article called "Random Encounters: Wild Life", found here http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a. In it they detail the feat WILD COHORT [general]. If you choose a heavy warhorse, you can get a mount nearly as good and in some instances better than the Paladin's mount. Here's a comparison. (WC is Wild Chort, PM is Paladin's Mount). Character Bonus HD Nat.Arm Str Dex Int Level WC/PM WC/PM WC/PM WC/PM WC/PM 1st-2nd +0/NA +0/NA +0/NA +0/NA +0/NA 3rd-4th +1/NA +1/NA +0/NA +0/NA +0/NA 5th +1/+2 +1/+4 +0/+1 +0/+0 +0/6 6th +3/+2 +3/+4 +1/+1 +1/+0 +0/6 7th +3/+2 +3/+4 +1/+1 +1/+0 +0/6 8th +3/+4 +3/+6 +1/+2 +1/+0 +0/7 9th +5/+4 +5/+6 +2/+2 +2/+0 +0/7 10th +5/+4 +5/+6 +2/+2 +2/+0 +0/7 11th +5/+6 +5/+8 +2/+3 +2/+0 +0/8 12th +7/+6 +7/+8 +3/+3 +3/+0 +0/8 13th +7/+6 +7/+8 +3/+3 +3/+0 +0/8 14th +7/+6 +7/+8 +3/+3 +3/+0 +0/8 15th-17th +9/+8 +9/+10 +4/+4 +4/+0 +0/9 18th-20th +11/+8 +11/+10 +5/+4 +4/+0 +0/9 Specials Wild Cohort Paladin's Mount 3rd evasion na 5th Empathic link, imp. evasion, share spells, share saving throws 8th imp. speed 11th command others of type 12th devotion 15th spell resistance 18th imp. evasion Now it looks like I could give my horse that "Fleet of Foot" feat at character level nine. Where the Wild Cohort loses out is mostly in the INT department, specials and a little bit in the natural armor areas. But if you took a couple of levels in something else before becoming a Paladin, the difference between Paladin Level and Character level might make up the difference. Take for example a Knight 5/Paladin 5. HD Nat.Arm Str. Dex Int Wild Cohort +5 +5 +2 +2 +0 Paladin Mount +2 +4 +1 +0 6 Except for INT and the specials, the Wild Cohort is better. I'm going to ask my DM if I can either A) give up the Paladin Mount for some of the optional Paladin goodies and spend a feat on Wild Cohort or B) Spend a feat on Wild Cohort and have the abilities/stats OVERLAP. I'm not munchkin-like enough to think for a moment that they'd stack (but if they did, are we approaching SUPERMOUNT territory yet ?)