What knowledge skill would class skills be under? [Archive] - Wizards Community

What knowledge skill would class skills be under? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
CowMasterTrojan
05-21-07, 04:15 PM What knowledge skills do you do use when your players want to figure out class skills that enemy NPC's have?
For example, Mettle, Evasion, improved uncanny dodge, Adbundant step, rage, bardic music, and lets say wildshape? Would they all be under one knowledge, or would they be under whatever knowledge skill had the most to do with the class? Or should I just drop little hints and expect the players to metagame?
Kamin_Majere
05-21-07, 04:56 PM That would be Knowledge Metagame with a DC of 10.

But since players have the +30 competence bonus item "The Rulebook" they generally auto pass it, so its a wasted skill to put anything in.

In the game there is no concept of class features or levels and the like. So making a knowledge check to find out 5th levels wizards have up to 3rd level spells, obtain familiar, scribe scroll, and a free metamagic feat, plus a 1st and 3rd level feat (or if their human a bonus feat as well) is pretty odd.

About as close as you can get is Sense Motive (i think its the right skill) where you can make a check and gauge the rough combat ability of an opponet. So you can tell if they are with in your "ability" range and a few other things.
Dazzer
05-21-07, 05:11 PM There is actually a rule that states that you can

Research Level Dependant Variables

This to some would mean, base attack, skill points, etc...Those albeit gained every level, aren't necessarily level dependent. How do you know the difference between a full base fighter, and the guy who dipped for 2 levels in monk?

What it means is the following.

You can figure out that a Paladin can smite evil, and based on his belief in his faith, and his honed fighting skills, it would deal more damage.

Your DM should probably not give your character "He does 1 damage per level" as an answer, since that means nothing. He would say the above, base on faith, blah blah blah.

Caster level dependent variables are also not dependent on your actual level, since you can have a penalty, or a bonus to caster level from outside sources. You could research the maximum HD a cleric of Yodamoda's power could turn. The answer wouldn't come in the form of "8HD, he is a 4th level cleric, if he rolls well...blah blah blah" It would come in the form of

He could turn 8 human skeletons, although to do so it would be very difficult. That would be in ingame explanation.

As for what class skills NPC X has. Well. Here's my question.

NPC X, casts spells like a cleric, turns like a cleric, speaks like a cleric and talks about clerical things...he must be a....FAVOURED SOUL? oh you thought I was gonna say cleric. Conversely....He could be a C...HAMELEON posing as a cleric.

In short, class skills cannot be researched due to the fact that in theory the party should NEVER actually know the class a guy has. Sometimes it's obvious, priest of nerull? probably a cleric. Could be an adept...dread necromancer...wizard....priests don't actually have to be clerics, those are just the cliche. Othertimes it's not, he succeeds on his bluff? but I have full ranks in sense motive, he must be some kindof person who gets bluff!! Or...he rolled high? Has good charisma? Has a situational bonus?

Hope this helps, albeit I don't think it's what your looking for.
Gorbeck
05-21-07, 05:14 PM Actually, the description of the Knowledge skill specifically states:

In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster.

Now in game I don't see the character thinking to himself, "Hmmm, I happen to recall that trolls have Regeneration 5." Instead, I think the DM should relate these special powers and vulnerabilities in a way that their character would understand. I.e., "You recall something that you read a while back about trolls being afraid of fire." Just my two cents.

Not sure about the original question though. A knowledge(nature) check would certainly be able to tell you that pixies sometimes carry arrows that cause memory loss but it probably wouldn't be able to tell you that the enemy you're fighting is a druid who has the wild shape class ability. Of course, if you could identify him as druid first then you could probably know that druids are capable of changing shape, but it would be at the DM's discretion to determine what knowledge check they'd have to roll for that.
Deep Blue 9000
05-21-07, 05:52 PM What knowledge skills do you do use when your players want to figure out class skills that enemy NPC's have?
For example, Mettle, Evasion, improved uncanny dodge, Adbundant step, rage, bardic music, and lets say wildshape? Would they all be under one knowledge, or would they be under whatever knowledge skill had the most to do with the class? Or should I just drop little hints and expect the players to metagame?

Could you explain the situation a bit more? I think this all depends on what the players know about the target already. For example, do they just look at the target and want to try to figure out what the highest level spells he can cast is? Or do they see that the target is wild shaping into an elemental and are trying to figure out what spell levels he must have access to?
CowMasterTrojan
05-21-07, 07:07 PM Could you explain the situation a bit more? I think this all depends on what the players know about the target already. For example, do they just look at the target and want to try to figure out what the highest level spells he can cast is? Or do they see that the target is wild shaping into an elemental and are trying to figure out what spell levels he must have access to?

I have a player who is literally obsessed with making sure he knows everything about the enemy he is fighting. As a result he has maxed knowledge ranks, constantly askes to make them, and demands to know what he rolls to figure out NPC's class skills.
robitusinz
05-21-07, 07:19 PM Knowledge(Adventuring)

Simple. Adventurers talk. They're bound to know that Prestige Class X does Y "cool, nifty trick".

Sense Motive checks will help you determine the approximate power level of your opponent.

Spot checks should tell you if you can figure out anything about the target that would divulge information as to his background - dirt under the fingernails might indicate someone who spent time outdoors a lot, and if he was carrying twin swords, he might be a ranger.

So basically...roll a Spot to see if there are any distinguishing features which would signify a class, then do a Knowledge(Adventuring) check to see if you've heard anything about that class.
Deep Blue 9000
05-21-07, 07:21 PM Ok, here's how I would handle this:

Whenever the NPCs uses a class ability like wildshape or a spell, he can make a knowledge check to figure out what classes get that spell and at what levels. I'd probably use the knowledge skill that would be the closest fit to the applicable ability and make the DC 10+the when level the NPC got the ability. Note that I would tell him all the classes which have this ability, not which class the NPC is. Also, I would not let him make a knowledge check unless the NPC used an ability.

If he succeeds, he knows what classes have that ability. He could then make a second knowledge check, DC 15 to figure out what any of those classes' class skills are.

And like Kamin said, there are also rules in Complete Warrior for using Sense Motive to figure out stuff about your opponent.
Vaelan
05-21-07, 07:30 PM Knowledge (Local) usually covers humanoids, so it would fit for class levels.
Kamin_Majere
05-21-07, 09:15 PM Knowledge (Local) usually covers humanoids, so it would fit for class levels.

The problem with that is that the knowledge local would only tell about the "monster" part of the opponent.

If Melee the Wizard was standing in front of this character, and they made a knowledge local check. All they would get to know is that elves are proficient with bows and long swords and about their racial abilities (like low light vision and hidden door sense)

It wouldn't tell you anything about the abstract rules for classes and class abilities.

To the OP
If your PC is that fanatical about learning everything about opponents, then if they are willing to take the time, sense motive and gather info/bardic knowledge would eventually give them that info but it wouldn't come from a single encounter as much as investigation of the opponets
jaelis
05-21-07, 09:27 PM The newer classes say which Knowledge skill to use. For instance,
Beguilers, dragon shamans and duskblades use Knowledge (arcana)
Knights and warblades use knowledge (nobility)
Crusaders use knowledge (religion)
Swordsages use knowledge (history)

For the core classes, I'd say:
barbarian, fighter, rogue: knowledge (local)
cleric: knowledge (religion)
druid, ranger: knowledge (nature)
paladin: knowledge (nobility)
monk: knowledge (history)
wizard, sorcerer: knowledge (arcana)
Vharuck
05-21-07, 09:38 PM But remember that the character making the check doesn't automatically know the opponent's class. A person casting arcane spells can be one of many, many, many classes. Maybe the person doing something specific to that class would warrant a Knowledge check (DC = 10+ the class level where that specific feature is gained) to allow the player to realize, "Hey, he's a sorcerer!"
Vaelan
05-21-07, 10:09 PM The problem with that is that the knowledge local would only tell about the "monster" part of the opponent.

I didn't say that it would work under the written rules, I said it would fit.

Now that I think about it, the Lore sections for PrCs tend to use Local, History, Arcana, and Martial Lore along with Bardic Knowledge, so those would probably fit a bit better.

Martial Lore for initiators, Arcana for mages, Local for rogue-types, and History for others. I would imagine that Religion would be for divine casters and Psionics for psionicists.
CowMasterTrojan
05-21-07, 10:10 PM Alright, well lets say that the PC views his teammates attacking said NPC's, and the NPC's defend themselves using their abilities. What check would it be to recognize it?
For example the Psion hits a hexblade with a mind whip (athough they don't know he's a hexblade), and the hexblade uses their mettle ability to avoid damage all together.
Second example, the NPC is a multiclassed barbarian/rogue, and the pc rogue sneak attacks them (but because they have improved uncanny dodge they are unaffected). What knowledge skills should it be? Should there be any?
JulesCARV
05-21-07, 10:31 PM Perhaps it depends on class. My attempts:

Barbarians, Fighters: Knowledge (history)
Bards, Sorcerers, Wizards: Knowledge (arcana)
Clerics, Monks, Paladins: Knowledge (religion)
Druids, Rangers: Knowledge (nature)
Psions, Psychic Warriors, Soulknives, and Wilders: Knowledge (psionics)
Rogues: Knowledge (local)

I actually think that spellcasters are likely to be well be aware of spell levels in game. Maybe not some inexperienced and isolated favored soul or sorcerer who's never had formal magical instruction, but among established wizardry academies, magic-orient clerical orders, and such, they could figure it out.

From a cleric or wizard's perspective, there are spells for which a scribed scroll costs 12.5 gp to scribe. There are spells for which a scribed scroll costs 75 gp to scribe. There are spells for which a scribed scroll costs 187.5 gp to scribe. Yet there are no spells that cost 30 gp to scribe, or spells that cost 120 gp to scribe.

Mages might not call them "spell levels." They might say that a spell has a "Nystul Index of 3" or somesuch. And maybe a lower "Nystul Index" is actually higher level spell, so maybe teleport has a Nystul Index of 3, while magic missile has a Nystul Index of 7, but my point is, spell levels' effects have too much of an observable in-game impact to claim that they don't exist in game at all.
navar100
05-21-07, 10:45 PM Actually, the description of the Knowledge skill specifically states:

Now in game I don't see the character thinking to himself, "Hmmm, I happen to recall that trolls have Regeneration 5." Instead, I think the DM should relate these special powers and vulnerabilities in a way that their character would understand. I.e., "You recall something that you read a while back about trolls being afraid of fire." Just my two cents.

Not sure about the original question though. A knowledge(nature) check would certainly be able to tell you that pixies sometimes carry arrows that cause memory loss but it probably wouldn't be able to tell you that the enemy you're fighting is a druid who has the wild shape class ability. Of course, if you could identify him as druid first then you could probably know that druids are capable of changing shape, but it would be at the DM's discretion to determine what knowledge check they'd have to roll for that.

It's all well and good to provide answers in such a flavor, but it's also ok to give game mechancis statistics. Even though a character may not know of levels and hit points, etc., a player does. During combat, a player utilizes metagame terms as part of his strategy. He knows the hit poitns he has, the spell levels he can cast, how much his total to hit modifier is, etc. He needs such things to play. Using an in character skill such as Knowledge to be able to utilze those game mechanics terms of the bad guys is the whole point of wanting to learn the bad guys' abilities.

To say a troll is vulnerable against fire and acid might be obvious what it means in game mechanics, but it may not be to all players. A wizard player may really want to know if an enemy spellcaster lieutenant bad guy can cast specifically 4th level spells because he's deciding between casting Minor Globe of Invulnerability or Globe of Vulnerability. Just saying "he's not a strong a wizard as you" doesn't tell him anything useful to apply in the combat.
Kamin_Majere
05-22-07, 07:54 AM A wizard player may really want to know if an enemy spellcaster lieutenant bad guy can cast specifically 4th level spells because he's deciding between casting Minor Globe of Invulnerability or Globe of Vulnerability. Just saying "he's not a strong a wizard as you" doesn't tell him anything useful to apply in the combat.

But if you allow that why not just allow PCs to see the NPC sheet then. Giveing PC's access to things like specific levels and classes of a character, gives the PC's a HUGE advantage over most everything. By saying that "hes not as strong a wizard as you" should give plenty of information. I mean at that point why not just let them know the opponets spell book or what kind of enhancements are on an opponets weapon.

Thats why i said if PC are fanatical about trying to know everything, they can use the sense motive skill for the "size up" and gather info to get specific knowledge about the opponet, then they can use the knowledge skills to get the information on the class like is in the 'Lore' sections of most classes and prestige classes

Knowing everything is odd, and can be boring.
When i was playing a wizard in a friend of mines campaign one of the most intense encounters was when an opposing wizard (and his group) crashed a banquet that was held in our parties honor. One of the guards confronted the wizard and was turned to glass and shattered.

My character flipped because, i as a player and my character had never seen a spell like that used before. At that point i had no idea at that point if this guy was horribally more powerful than me or if he just had a larger source to pull spells from.

Now having seen the spell i could have went to research it and found out that i was able to cast it only being a 7th level spell (if i remember correctly) but as they were there with the express purpose of killing us i didnt really have the time.
navar100
05-22-07, 10:09 PM If you had the ranks in Spellcraft and rolled well, your character would know about that spell even if you did not.

It can and is fun for a player not to know everything. I know in my game a few sessions back we were surprised by some ghouls and constructs that when "killed" immediately got back up and had to be killed again, with the constructs becoming larger.

However, a purpose of knowledge skills is to allow player to use metagame knowledge by making it in character knowledge so he can play fairly. A player uses game mechanics in figuring out strategy and tactics. Having an in character way of learning a particular game mechanic of the bad guy helps. The player is not asking to look at the NPC character sheet. He has a specific information request.

The actual skill used doesn't matter to me on this particular point. What does matter to me is not every single bit of information needs to be so cryptic such that you have to make a knowledge check on the knowledge check.
Koretsu
05-23-07, 03:20 AM Hey...

Nifty trick: Look at most books that offer new classes recent enough to include a detailed background info with the class (Races of Destiny, Tome of Battle, and Tome of Magic come to mind off the top of my head). Each one has a detailed Class Lore table to allow players to get background info on the capabilities of a particular class. Based on those, it's not hard to expand them to the classes that don't have them. I'll post an example:

Swordsage Lore
Characters with ranks in Gather Information or Knowledge (history) can research swordsages to learn more about them. When a character makes a skill check, read or paraphrase the following, including the information from lower DCs.
DC 10: A swordsage is a fancy sword-swinger who thinks he knows more about swordplay than anyone else.
DC 15: Like warblades and crusaders, swordsages walk the Sublime Way. But they don't just walk it - They study it, they search it, and they think there's a meaning in it. They look for the wisdom of their swords, the story of each swing, and the history of each foe.
DC 20: Swordsages are patient, calm, and lethal. They gain the most mystical powers of all who walk the Sublime Way.

...Based on that, it would not be unreasonable to give a higher check more detailed information. But from a DC 20 knowledge check, we've already learned that a swordsage is a potent melee combatant whos abilities border on the supernatural - enough information for most PCs to devise a rough battle plan.

...Above all else, though, do not tell a character "He has evasion, a monk-like AC bonus, a BAB as a cleric , and a d8 Hit Die". Instead, try saying "Swordsages are both nimble and tough. Thier intense training has led to master the art of avoiding incoming blows while in little or no armor."
serow_#R
05-23-07, 04:24 AM Gather Information, or Sense Motive
Modify the DCs and such :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CowMasterTrojan 05-21-07, 04:15 PM	What knowledge skills do you do use when your players want to figure out class skills that enemy NPC's have? For example, Mettle, Evasion, improved uncanny dodge, Adbundant step, rage, bardic music, and lets say wildshape? Would they all be under one knowledge, or would they be under whatever knowledge skill had the most to do with the class? Or should I just drop little hints and expect the players to metagame?
Kamin_Majere 05-21-07, 04:56 PM	That would be Knowledge Metagame with a DC of 10. But since players have the +30 competence bonus item "The Rulebook" they generally auto pass it, so its a wasted skill to put anything in. In the game there is no concept of class features or levels and the like. So making a knowledge check to find out 5th levels wizards have up to 3rd level spells, obtain familiar, scribe scroll, and a free metamagic feat, plus a 1st and 3rd level feat (or if their human a bonus feat as well) is pretty odd. About as close as you can get is Sense Motive (i think its the right skill) where you can make a check and gauge the rough combat ability of an opponet. So you can tell if they are with in your "ability" range and a few other things.
Dazzer 05-21-07, 05:11 PM	There is actually a rule that states that you can Research Level Dependant Variables This to some would mean, base attack, skill points, etc...Those albeit gained every level, aren't necessarily level dependent. How do you know the difference between a full base fighter, and the guy who dipped for 2 levels in monk? What it means is the following. You can figure out that a Paladin can smite evil, and based on his belief in his faith, and his honed fighting skills, it would deal more damage. Your DM should probably not give your character "He does 1 damage per level" as an answer, since that means nothing. He would say the above, base on faith, blah blah blah. Caster level dependent variables are also not dependent on your actual level, since you can have a penalty, or a bonus to caster level from outside sources. You could research the maximum HD a cleric of Yodamoda's power could turn. The answer wouldn't come in the form of "8HD, he is a 4th level cleric, if he rolls well...blah blah blah" It would come in the form of He could turn 8 human skeletons, although to do so it would be very difficult. That would be in ingame explanation. As for what class skills NPC X has. Well. Here's my question. NPC X, casts spells like a cleric, turns like a cleric, speaks like a cleric and talks about clerical things...he must be a....FAVOURED SOUL? oh you thought I was gonna say cleric. Conversely....He could be a C...HAMELEON posing as a cleric. In short, class skills cannot be researched due to the fact that in theory the party should NEVER actually know the class a guy has. Sometimes it's obvious, priest of nerull? probably a cleric. Could be an adept...dread necromancer...wizard....priests don't actually have to be clerics, those are just the cliche. Othertimes it's not, he succeeds on his bluff? but I have full ranks in sense motive, he must be some kindof person who gets bluff!! Or...he rolled high? Has good charisma? Has a situational bonus? Hope this helps, albeit I don't think it's what your looking for.
Gorbeck 05-21-07, 05:14 PM	Actually, the description of the Knowledge skill specifically states: In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster. Now in game I don't see the character thinking to himself, "Hmmm, I happen to recall that trolls have Regeneration 5." Instead, I think the DM should relate these special powers and vulnerabilities in a way that their character would understand. I.e., "You recall something that you read a while back about trolls being afraid of fire." Just my two cents. Not sure about the original question though. A knowledge(nature) check would certainly be able to tell you that pixies sometimes carry arrows that cause memory loss but it probably wouldn't be able to tell you that the enemy you're fighting is a druid who has the wild shape class ability. Of course, if you could identify him as druid first then you could probably know that druids are capable of changing shape, but it would be at the DM's discretion to determine what knowledge check they'd have to roll for that.
Deep Blue 9000 05-21-07, 05:52 PM	What knowledge skills do you do use when your players want to figure out class skills that enemy NPC's have? For example, Mettle, Evasion, improved uncanny dodge, Adbundant step, rage, bardic music, and lets say wildshape? Would they all be under one knowledge, or would they be under whatever knowledge skill had the most to do with the class? Or should I just drop little hints and expect the players to metagame? Could you explain the situation a bit more? I think this all depends on what the players know about the target already. For example, do they just look at the target and want to try to figure out what the highest level spells he can cast is? Or do they see that the target is wild shaping into an elemental and are trying to figure out what spell levels he must have access to?
CowMasterTrojan 05-21-07, 07:07 PM	Could you explain the situation a bit more? I think this all depends on what the players know about the target already. For example, do they just look at the target and want to try to figure out what the highest level spells he can cast is? Or do they see that the target is wild shaping into an elemental and are trying to figure out what spell levels he must have access to? I have a player who is literally obsessed with making sure he knows everything about the enemy he is fighting. As a result he has maxed knowledge ranks, constantly askes to make them, and demands to know what he rolls to figure out NPC's class skills.
robitusinz 05-21-07, 07:19 PM	Knowledge(Adventuring) Simple. Adventurers talk. They're bound to know that Prestige Class X does Y "cool, nifty trick". Sense Motive checks will help you determine the approximate power level of your opponent. Spot checks should tell you if you can figure out anything about the target that would divulge information as to his background - dirt under the fingernails might indicate someone who spent time outdoors a lot, and if he was carrying twin swords, he might be a ranger. So basically...roll a Spot to see if there are any distinguishing features which would signify a class, then do a Knowledge(Adventuring) check to see if you've heard anything about that class.
Deep Blue 9000 05-21-07, 07:21 PM	Ok, here's how I would handle this: Whenever the NPCs uses a class ability like wildshape or a spell, he can make a knowledge check to figure out what classes get that spell and at what levels. I'd probably use the knowledge skill that would be the closest fit to the applicable ability and make the DC 10+the when level the NPC got the ability. Note that I would tell him all the classes which have this ability, not which class the NPC is. Also, I would not let him make a knowledge check unless the NPC used an ability. If he succeeds, he knows what classes have that ability. He could then make a second knowledge check, DC 15 to figure out what any of those classes' class skills are. And like Kamin said, there are also rules in Complete Warrior for using Sense Motive to figure out stuff about your opponent.
Vaelan 05-21-07, 07:30 PM	Knowledge (Local) usually covers humanoids, so it would fit for class levels.
Kamin_Majere 05-21-07, 09:15 PM	Knowledge (Local) usually covers humanoids, so it would fit for class levels. The problem with that is that the knowledge local would only tell about the "monster" part of the opponent. If Melee the Wizard was standing in front of this character, and they made a knowledge local check. All they would get to know is that elves are proficient with bows and long swords and about their racial abilities (like low light vision and hidden door sense) It wouldn't tell you anything about the abstract rules for classes and class abilities. To the OP If your PC is that fanatical about learning everything about opponents, then if they are willing to take the time, sense motive and gather info/bardic knowledge would eventually give them that info but it wouldn't come from a single encounter as much as investigation of the opponets
jaelis 05-21-07, 09:27 PM	The newer classes say which Knowledge skill to use. For instance, Beguilers, dragon shamans and duskblades use Knowledge (arcana) Knights and warblades use knowledge (nobility) Crusaders use knowledge (religion) Swordsages use knowledge (history) For the core classes, I'd say: barbarian, fighter, rogue: knowledge (local) cleric: knowledge (religion) druid, ranger: knowledge (nature) paladin: knowledge (nobility) monk: knowledge (history) wizard, sorcerer: knowledge (arcana)
Vharuck 05-21-07, 09:38 PM	But remember that the character making the check doesn't automatically know the opponent's class. A person casting arcane spells can be one of many, many, many classes. Maybe the person doing something specific to that class would warrant a Knowledge check (DC = 10+ the class level where that specific feature is gained) to allow the player to realize, "Hey, he's a sorcerer!"
Vaelan 05-21-07, 10:09 PM	The problem with that is that the knowledge local would only tell about the "monster" part of the opponent. I didn't say that it would work under the written rules, I said it would fit. Now that I think about it, the Lore sections for PrCs tend to use Local, History, Arcana, and Martial Lore along with Bardic Knowledge, so those would probably fit a bit better. Martial Lore for initiators, Arcana for mages, Local for rogue-types, and History for others. I would imagine that Religion would be for divine casters and Psionics for psionicists.
CowMasterTrojan 05-21-07, 10:10 PM	Alright, well lets say that the PC views his teammates attacking said NPC's, and the NPC's defend themselves using their abilities. What check would it be to recognize it? For example the Psion hits a hexblade with a mind whip (athough they don't know he's a hexblade), and the hexblade uses their mettle ability to avoid damage all together. Second example, the NPC is a multiclassed barbarian/rogue, and the pc rogue sneak attacks them (but because they have improved uncanny dodge they are unaffected). What knowledge skills should it be? Should there be any?
JulesCARV 05-21-07, 10:31 PM	Perhaps it depends on class. My attempts: Barbarians, Fighters: Knowledge (history) Bards, Sorcerers, Wizards: Knowledge (arcana) Clerics, Monks, Paladins: Knowledge (religion) Druids, Rangers: Knowledge (nature) Psions, Psychic Warriors, Soulknives, and Wilders: Knowledge (psionics) Rogues: Knowledge (local) I actually think that spellcasters are likely to be well be aware of spell levels in game. Maybe not some inexperienced and isolated favored soul or sorcerer who's never had formal magical instruction, but among established wizardry academies, magic-orient clerical orders, and such, they could figure it out. From a cleric or wizard's perspective, there are spells for which a scribed scroll costs 12.5 gp to scribe. There are spells for which a scribed scroll costs 75 gp to scribe. There are spells for which a scribed scroll costs 187.5 gp to scribe. Yet there are no spells that cost 30 gp to scribe, or spells that cost 120 gp to scribe. Mages might not call them "spell levels." They might say that a spell has a "Nystul Index of 3" or somesuch. And maybe a lower "Nystul Index" is actually higher level spell, so maybe teleport has a Nystul Index of 3, while magic missile has a Nystul Index of 7, but my point is, spell levels' effects have too much of an observable in-game impact to claim that they don't exist in game at all.
navar100 05-21-07, 10:45 PM	Actually, the description of the Knowledge skill specifically states: Now in game I don't see the character thinking to himself, "Hmmm, I happen to recall that trolls have Regeneration 5." Instead, I think the DM should relate these special powers and vulnerabilities in a way that their character would understand. I.e., "You recall something that you read a while back about trolls being afraid of fire." Just my two cents. Not sure about the original question though. A knowledge(nature) check would certainly be able to tell you that pixies sometimes carry arrows that cause memory loss but it probably wouldn't be able to tell you that the enemy you're fighting is a druid who has the wild shape class ability. Of course, if you could identify him as druid first then you could probably know that druids are capable of changing shape, but it would be at the DM's discretion to determine what knowledge check they'd have to roll for that. It's all well and good to provide answers in such a flavor, but it's also ok to give game mechancis statistics. Even though a character may not know of levels and hit points, etc., a player does. During combat, a player utilizes metagame terms as part of his strategy. He knows the hit poitns he has, the spell levels he can cast, how much his total to hit modifier is, etc. He needs such things to play. Using an in character skill such as Knowledge to be able to utilze those game mechanics terms of the bad guys is the whole point of wanting to learn the bad guys' abilities. To say a troll is vulnerable against fire and acid might be obvious what it means in game mechanics, but it may not be to all players. A wizard player may really want to know if an enemy spellcaster lieutenant bad guy can cast specifically 4th level spells because he's deciding between casting Minor Globe of Invulnerability or Globe of Vulnerability. Just saying "he's not a strong a wizard as you" doesn't tell him anything useful to apply in the combat.
Kamin_Majere 05-22-07, 07:54 AM	A wizard player may really want to know if an enemy spellcaster lieutenant bad guy can cast specifically 4th level spells because he's deciding between casting Minor Globe of Invulnerability or Globe of Vulnerability. Just saying "he's not a strong a wizard as you" doesn't tell him anything useful to apply in the combat. But if you allow that why not just allow PCs to see the NPC sheet then. Giveing PC's access to things like specific levels and classes of a character, gives the PC's a HUGE advantage over most everything. By saying that "hes not as strong a wizard as you" should give plenty of information. I mean at that point why not just let them know the opponets spell book or what kind of enhancements are on an opponets weapon. Thats why i said if PC are fanatical about trying to know everything, they can use the sense motive skill for the "size up" and gather info to get specific knowledge about the opponet, then they can use the knowledge skills to get the information on the class like is in the 'Lore' sections of most classes and prestige classes Knowing everything is odd, and can be boring. When i was playing a wizard in a friend of mines campaign one of the most intense encounters was when an opposing wizard (and his group) crashed a banquet that was held in our parties honor. One of the guards confronted the wizard and was turned to glass and shattered. My character flipped because, i as a player and my character had never seen a spell like that used before. At that point i had no idea at that point if this guy was horribally more powerful than me or if he just had a larger source to pull spells from. Now having seen the spell i could have went to research it and found out that i was able to cast it only being a 7th level spell (if i remember correctly) but as they were there with the express purpose of killing us i didnt really have the time.
navar100 05-22-07, 10:09 PM	If you had the ranks in Spellcraft and rolled well, your character would know about that spell even if you did not. It can and is fun for a player not to know everything. I know in my game a few sessions back we were surprised by some ghouls and constructs that when "killed" immediately got back up and had to be killed again, with the constructs becoming larger. However, a purpose of knowledge skills is to allow player to use metagame knowledge by making it in character knowledge so he can play fairly. A player uses game mechanics in figuring out strategy and tactics. Having an in character way of learning a particular game mechanic of the bad guy helps. The player is not asking to look at the NPC character sheet. He has a specific information request. The actual skill used doesn't matter to me on this particular point. What does matter to me is not every single bit of information needs to be so cryptic such that you have to make a knowledge check on the knowledge check.
Koretsu 05-23-07, 03:20 AM	Hey... Nifty trick: Look at most books that offer new classes recent enough to include a detailed background info with the class (Races of Destiny, Tome of Battle, and Tome of Magic come to mind off the top of my head). Each one has a detailed Class Lore table to allow players to get background info on the capabilities of a particular class. Based on those, it's not hard to expand them to the classes that don't have them. I'll post an example: Swordsage Lore Characters with ranks in Gather Information or Knowledge (history) can research swordsages to learn more about them. When a character makes a skill check, read or paraphrase the following, including the information from lower DCs. DC 10: A swordsage is a fancy sword-swinger who thinks he knows more about swordplay than anyone else. DC 15: Like warblades and crusaders, swordsages walk the Sublime Way. But they don't just walk it - They study it, they search it, and they think there's a meaning in it. They look for the wisdom of their swords, the story of each swing, and the history of each foe. DC 20: Swordsages are patient, calm, and lethal. They gain the most mystical powers of all who walk the Sublime Way. ...Based on that, it would not be unreasonable to give a higher check more detailed information. But from a DC 20 knowledge check, we've already learned that a swordsage is a potent melee combatant whos abilities border on the supernatural - enough information for most PCs to devise a rough battle plan. ...Above all else, though, do not tell a character "He has evasion, a monk-like AC bonus, a BAB as a cleric , and a d8 Hit Die". Instead, try saying "Swordsages are both nimble and tough. Thier intense training has led to master the art of avoiding incoming blows while in little or no armor."
serow_#R 05-23-07, 04:24 AM	Gather Information, or Sense Motive Modify the DCs and such :)