What metamagic feats are overpowered? [Archive] - Wizards Community

What metamagic feats are overpowered? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Valoy_Muniz
07-07-07, 06:04 PM I figured I would post this since me and my Gm was talking how feldrain (negive level if damaged +2level) was to powerfull especaly with magic missle. What other ones do you think are overpowered and why?
Radiun
07-07-07, 06:15 PM Some people might find Invisible Spell overpowered.
+0 adjustment and does what you would think it does.
WackyOne
07-07-07, 06:22 PM I wouldn't call Fell Drain "overpowered" - remember, though, that a target can get only 1 neg. level, even if is hit by all the 5 missiles.
Personally, other than the metamagic in Cityscape that makes spells invisible (only because it was thought up with only "fireball like" instant spells in mind, not conjurations... it makes the field... "funny", with people running into invisible black tentacles... it's comical), I haven't found metamagics broken. The techniques to cast spell as metamagicked, without paying the spell adjustement cost, otoh... but that's an other whole story.
The_Shaman
07-07-07, 06:24 PM Greenbound summoning was broken before the fix.
Ages_Defiance
07-07-07, 09:01 PM yeah fell drain is rediculous but what do you mean only one neg level. what if its used with fire shield against a blue dragon who hits you six times. what happends then.
Empiro
07-08-07, 02:17 AM The funny answer is either: none of them, or all of them.

If your PCs don't try to stack metamagic cost reducing feats and abilities, then pretty much all of them are fine. If your PCs do, then once they start throwing empowered, twinned, energy admixed, etc., etc., etc, orbs around, you'll have your hands full.

The sudden metamagic feats can be problematic if combined with each other and with rods. It tends to one-shot climactic boss encounters unless the DM goes to extreme pains to negate the attack, which is both cheap, and something that he or she ought not need to do.
runestar
07-08-07, 02:33 AM You can use a fell-drain'ed magic missile to hit 5 separate targets, thus granting each of them a negative lv.:)
Gnarl
07-08-07, 03:55 AM Greenbound summoning was broken before the fix.

I can't find anything in the errata, is this an official fix?
TheAnthroDM
07-08-07, 04:48 AM None of them are broken unless you allow divine metamagic. Then persistent spell flies straight out the window. And be careful with the suddens if you have a sudden stacker(Sudden Empower, Sudden Maximize, and Sudden Quick to Meteor Swarm anyone?) against BBEGs, if you know they have that kind of firepower still at hand make sure the BBEG has some way to negate it.
Witch
07-08-07, 06:36 AM Explosive Spell is broken in combination with spells such as Fimbulwinter or Apocalypse from the Skies.
Merestil Haye
07-08-07, 08:12 AM Explosive Spell is broken in combination with spells such as Fimbulwinter or Apocalypse from the Skies.I'm not familiar with the spells. Where are they from?
Witch
07-08-07, 08:29 AM I'm not familiar with the spells. Where are they from?

Respectively Frostburn and Book of Vile Darkness.
WackyOne
07-08-07, 08:47 AM yeah fell drain is rediculous but what do you mean only one neg level. what if its used with fire shield against a blue dragon who hits you six times. what happends then.

You can use a fell-drain'ed magic missile to hit 5 separate targets, thus granting each of them a negative lv.:)

Those are legit ways to drain more than one level with Fell Drain - especially the fire shield (although against "magic knowing" opponents that calls for a dispel or ranged attacks - but while it lasts, it removes melee from the threats you are facing... unless you are alone, then the dragon just smashes over the shield, or takes the time to dispel :P).
There was even a (kinda lousy on his own) spell around that gave CL bolts of neg. energy, to be released 1/r - it makes for a nice "death-clock". If only I could remember the name...
Radijs
07-08-07, 10:00 AM I can't find anything in the errata, is this an official fix?

Yes what is this fix for greenbound?
Merestil Haye
07-08-07, 10:11 AM Respectively Frostburn and Book of Vile Darkness.Thanks. :) Nasty spells. *rubs hands in glee.*

You can't apply Explosive Spell to either spell. Neither of the spells allow a Reflex save (or indeed any form of save) and Explosive Spell can only be applied to spells which allow Reflex saves.
NoldorForce
07-08-07, 03:37 PM Explosive Spell is broken in combination with spells such as Fimbulwinter or Apocalypse from the Skies.It's an AoE save-or-die. So original, they've already printed a bunch of them. Not broken. Even at epic levels, where nearly everyone is immune to the other ones, they're also making their saves (and not taking damage) with respect to Explosive Spell. The size of the effect might be mean, but epic spells can do similar things.Thanks. :) Nasty spells. *rubs hands in glee.*

You can't apply Explosive Spell to either spell. Neither of the spells allow a Reflex save (or indeed any form of save) and Explosive Spell can only be applied to spells which allow Reflex saves.If you do things properly, you can eventually tag them with Reflex saves.
Molluscicide
07-08-07, 05:18 PM 1 day casting time is silly.
NoldorForce
07-08-07, 05:25 PM 1 day casting time is silly.With Alacritous Cogitation, it's irrelevant. (The feat allows you to cast a spell as a full-round action once per day.)
Witch
07-08-07, 05:44 PM It's an AoE save-or-die. So original, they've already printed a bunch of them. Not broken.
Its a Save-or-Die on everything within a radius of miles. It collapses entire cities. If you can tell me that isn't broken with a straight face, you're one hell of an actor.
The size of the effect might be mean, but epic spells can do similar things.
This becomes available pre-epic.

If you do things properly, you can eventually tag them with Reflex saves.
Indeed.
NoldorForce
07-08-07, 07:33 PM Its a Save-or-Die on everything within a radius of miles. It collapses entire cities. If you can tell me that isn't broken with a straight face, you're one hell of an actor.Without metamagic mitigation, this is not available pre-epic. Even with metamagic elimination, you still need to be close to epic to use it.

It can't collapse entire cities, considering that it only affects creatures. And if there's a barrier nearby...not nearly as much damage gets taken. In addition to that barrier blocking any line of effect. (Do either of those spells even do damage to barriers?) You're going to need big open spaces to actually make this a save-or-die, rather than just more damage on a failed save.

It may kill just about everything that fails its Reflex save within its confines...but chances are, nearly all of them would die from the base damage anyway. It's not called Apocalypse from the Sky to sound pretty.

It's just an AoE save-or-die with a honkin' big radius. That bolded part is the only difference. But many of the highest-power counterparts already have big enough radii for most everyone to care about. And you have to make some decent investments to pull off ExSp + AftS pre-epic, while your casting friends have made other choices that give them the ability to not care.

Quite a few things produced by the CO Boards produce big numbers...but also require rather ideal situations. This is one of them.
Radijs
07-09-07, 03:38 AM I thought that using locate city became an option at level 7 or so. And one level later you could arrange it so that the spell wouldn't kill you as well. That the gods will do that afterwards doesn't matter of course.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Valoy_Muniz 07-07-07, 06:04 PM	I figured I would post this since me and my Gm was talking how feldrain (negive level if damaged +2level) was to powerfull especaly with magic missle. What other ones do you think are overpowered and why?
Radiun 07-07-07, 06:15 PM	Some people might find Invisible Spell overpowered. +0 adjustment and does what you would think it does.
WackyOne 07-07-07, 06:22 PM	I wouldn't call Fell Drain "overpowered" - remember, though, that a target can get only 1 neg. level, even if is hit by all the 5 missiles. Personally, other than the metamagic in Cityscape that makes spells invisible (only because it was thought up with only "fireball like" instant spells in mind, not conjurations... it makes the field... "funny", with people running into invisible black tentacles... it's comical), I haven't found metamagics broken. The techniques to cast spell as metamagicked, without paying the spell adjustement cost, otoh... but that's an other whole story.
The_Shaman 07-07-07, 06:24 PM	Greenbound summoning was broken before the fix.
Ages_Defiance 07-07-07, 09:01 PM	yeah fell drain is rediculous but what do you mean only one neg level. what if its used with fire shield against a blue dragon who hits you six times. what happends then.
Empiro 07-08-07, 02:17 AM	The funny answer is either: none of them, or all of them. If your PCs don't try to stack metamagic cost reducing feats and abilities, then pretty much all of them are fine. If your PCs do, then once they start throwing empowered, twinned, energy admixed, etc., etc., etc, orbs around, you'll have your hands full. The sudden metamagic feats can be problematic if combined with each other and with rods. It tends to one-shot climactic boss encounters unless the DM goes to extreme pains to negate the attack, which is both cheap, and something that he or she ought not need to do.
runestar 07-08-07, 02:33 AM	You can use a fell-drain'ed magic missile to hit 5 separate targets, thus granting each of them a negative lv.:)
Gnarl 07-08-07, 03:55 AM	Greenbound summoning was broken before the fix. I can't find anything in the errata, is this an official fix?
TheAnthroDM 07-08-07, 04:48 AM	None of them are broken unless you allow divine metamagic. Then persistent spell flies straight out the window. And be careful with the suddens if you have a sudden stacker(Sudden Empower, Sudden Maximize, and Sudden Quick to Meteor Swarm anyone?) against BBEGs, if you know they have that kind of firepower still at hand make sure the BBEG has some way to negate it.
Witch 07-08-07, 06:36 AM	Explosive Spell is broken in combination with spells such as Fimbulwinter or Apocalypse from the Skies.
Merestil Haye 07-08-07, 08:12 AM	Explosive Spell is broken in combination with spells such as Fimbulwinter or Apocalypse from the Skies.I'm not familiar with the spells. Where are they from?
Witch 07-08-07, 08:29 AM	I'm not familiar with the spells. Where are they from? Respectively Frostburn and Book of Vile Darkness.
WackyOne 07-08-07, 08:47 AM	yeah fell drain is rediculous but what do you mean only one neg level. what if its used with fire shield against a blue dragon who hits you six times. what happends then. You can use a fell-drain'ed magic missile to hit 5 separate targets, thus granting each of them a negative lv.:) Those are legit ways to drain more than one level with Fell Drain - especially the fire shield (although against "magic knowing" opponents that calls for a dispel or ranged attacks - but while it lasts, it removes melee from the threats you are facing... unless you are alone, then the dragon just smashes over the shield, or takes the time to dispel :P). There was even a (kinda lousy on his own) spell around that gave CL bolts of neg. energy, to be released 1/r - it makes for a nice "death-clock". If only I could remember the name...
Radijs 07-08-07, 10:00 AM	I can't find anything in the errata, is this an official fix? Yes what is this fix for greenbound?
Merestil Haye 07-08-07, 10:11 AM	Respectively Frostburn and Book of Vile Darkness.Thanks. :) Nasty spells. rubs hands in glee. You can't apply Explosive Spell to either spell. Neither of the spells allow a Reflex save (or indeed any form of save) and Explosive Spell can only be applied to spells which allow Reflex saves.
NoldorForce 07-08-07, 03:37 PM	Explosive Spell is broken in combination with spells such as Fimbulwinter or Apocalypse from the Skies.It's an AoE save-or-die. So original, they've already printed a bunch of them. Not broken. Even at epic levels, where nearly everyone is immune to the other ones, they're also making their saves (and not taking damage) with respect to Explosive Spell. The size of the effect might be mean, but epic spells can do similar things.Thanks. :) Nasty spells. rubs hands in glee. You can't apply Explosive Spell to either spell. Neither of the spells allow a Reflex save (or indeed any form of save) and Explosive Spell can only be applied to spells which allow Reflex saves.If you do things properly, you can eventually tag them with Reflex saves.
Molluscicide 07-08-07, 05:18 PM	1 day casting time is silly.
NoldorForce 07-08-07, 05:25 PM	1 day casting time is silly.With Alacritous Cogitation, it's irrelevant. (The feat allows you to cast a spell as a full-round action once per day.)
Witch 07-08-07, 05:44 PM	It's an AoE save-or-die. So original, they've already printed a bunch of them. Not broken. Its a Save-or-Die on everything within a radius of miles. It collapses entire cities. If you can tell me that isn't broken with a straight face, you're one hell of an actor. The size of the effect might be mean, but epic spells can do similar things. This becomes available pre-epic. If you do things properly, you can eventually tag them with Reflex saves. Indeed.
NoldorForce 07-08-07, 07:33 PM	Its a Save-or-Die on everything within a radius of miles. It collapses entire cities. If you can tell me that isn't broken with a straight face, you're one hell of an actor.Without metamagic mitigation, this is not available pre-epic. Even with metamagic elimination, you still need to be close to epic to use it. It can't collapse entire cities, considering that it only affects creatures. And if there's a barrier nearby...not nearly as much damage gets taken. In addition to that barrier blocking any line of effect. (Do either of those spells even do damage to barriers?) You're going to need big open spaces to actually make this a save-or-die, rather than just more damage on a failed save. It may kill just about everything that fails its Reflex save within its confines...but chances are, nearly all of them would die from the base damage anyway. It's not called Apocalypse from the Sky to sound pretty. It's just an AoE save-or-die with a honkin' big radius. That bolded part is the only difference. But many of the highest-power counterparts already have big enough radii for most everyone to care about. And you have to make some decent investments to pull off ExSp + AftS pre-epic, while your casting friends have made other choices that give them the ability to not care. Quite a few things produced by the CO Boards produce big numbers...but also require rather ideal situations. This is one of them.
Radijs 07-09-07, 03:38 AM	I thought that using locate city became an option at level 7 or so. And one level later you could arrange it so that the spell wouldn't kill you as well. That the gods will do that afterwards doesn't matter of course.