Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tequila_Sunrise 05-09-07, 01:32 PM	A player in my new game just told me that he wants to play an incarnate with Vow of Poverty. I'm looking the feat over right now, because if I had a nickel for every time someone claimed that this feat is overpowered... Anyway, the only two things that I really don't like about VoP is the huge AC bonus that they get which is typed as 'exalted' and their DR X/evil at later levels. So what gives? Is there something that I'm missing?
The Crystal Mind 05-09-07, 01:43 PM	I think what most people don't like about the feat is that there is the potential for some classes to seriously abuse the benefits. Such a class is the incarnate, because they essentially get 'free' magic items that they can charge up and alter every day (sometimes more often). Another class with potential abuse is a psychic warrior, because they get a 'free' +5 weapon with up to +4 in mods. So, because the incarnate gets soulmelds to cover any deficiencies due to VoP, or maximize the benefits provided by it, is why most people consider the feat overpowered. Having said all that, if you feel it is a reasonable feat for your player to have, allow them to take it.
MerlintheTuna 05-09-07, 01:58 PM	Another class with potential abuse is a psychic warrior, because they get a 'free' +5 weapon with up to +4 in mods.That's the Soulknife you're thinking of. A lot of people think VoP is overpowered without having crunched any numbers. In the end, it's actually usually worse than having the expected Wealth-by-Level unless you have some means of mitigating your losses. Soulknives, for example, still have their mind blades. (Though it should be noted that VoP Monks, the classic example, are still behind despite the increased unarmed damage.) I'm not sure how the Incarnate stacks up, as I don't have MoI.
pupilofyah 05-09-07, 02:16 PM	A player in my new game just told me that he wants to play an incarnate with Vow of Poverty. I'm looking the feat over right now, because if I had a nickel for every time someone claimed that this feat is overpowered... Anyway, the only two things that I really don't like about VoP is the huge AC bonus that they get which is typed as 'exalted' and their DR X/evil at later levels. So what gives? Is there something that I'm missing? first of all it takes 2 feats to get this sacred vow and VoP. as part of the deal you can not own anything masterwork or magical. also the exalted armor bonus you dislike doesnot stack with an armor bonus if the characture has normal armor. so this "huge" armor bonus is not even that much. it takes 18 lvls to reach 15 (+10 exalted +2 nat +3 deflection) so an ac 25 + dex is the best you can get. a friend of mine has a lvl 10 char with a 35 ac. the DR on the other hand is good but by the time you get it you are looking fighting creatures like devils and demons and what kind of damage do they do? oh yeah evil. if you are playing an exalted charature then you are probably attracting the attention of demons and devils so DR that they can by pass is moot. what you are missing is the fact that not having access to magic items lowers you protective options. most of what VoP gives is a replacement for not having magic. I hear the same complaints all the time about how monks are over powered but monks can't were armor with out losing just about everything and their ac and lower hit points cant compare to other marshall classes after 7 lvl. before you pass judgement on how powerful VoP is try playing it. I have played. I played a VoP monk and could not get my ac to hit 30 till 16 lvl and that was stacking stat boost onto wis and dex first.
Tequila_Sunrise 05-09-07, 05:10 PM	first of all it takes 2 feats to get this sacred vow and VoP. as part of the deal you can not own anything masterwork or magical. also the exalted armor bonus you dislike doesnot stack with an armor bonus if the characture has normal armor. so this "huge" armor bonus is not even that much. it takes 18 lvls to reach 15 (+10 exalted +2 nat +3 deflection) so an ac 25 + dex is the best you can get. a friend of mine has a lvl 10 char with a 35 ac. the DR on the other hand is good but by the time you get it you are looking fighting creatures like devils and demons and what kind of damage do they do? oh yeah evil. if you are playing an exalted charature then you are probably attracting the attention of demons and devils so DR that they can by pass is moot. Thanks for your input. I'm sure it's unintentional, but you're coming off a bit cocky. Not every game follows the same trend as yours; for example, I have no plans as of yet to pit this character against any evil outsiders. Anyway, thanks for your input, all. I did a short rewrite of the VoP progression; I added a few more bonuses but got rid of the DR X/evil and the 'exalted' type (if it doesn't stack with armor, I'll just call it armor...) and reduced the bonus feat progression to 1/3. Other than that, if not having magic items to interfere with the incarnate's soulmelds causes me any real headaches, I'll think of a solution.
Nephlite 05-09-07, 08:02 PM	A player in my new game just told me that he wants to play an incarnate with Vow of Poverty. I'm looking the feat over right now, because if I had a nickel for every time someone claimed that this feat is overpowered... Anyway, the only two things that I really don't like about VoP is the huge AC bonus that they get which is typed as 'exalted' and their DR X/evil at later levels. So what gives? Is there something that I'm missing? VoP gives exactly equal to Wealth by level guidelines without choices (these are set benefits). Most DMs give less than Wealth by Level: thus most DMs complain about it being broken.
neilthrun 05-09-07, 08:23 PM	VoP gives exactly equal to Wealth by level guidelines without choices (these are set benefits). Most DMs give less than Wealth by Level: thus most DMs complain about it being broken. Thats really hard to judge. Especially because of the bonus feats. The bonus feats seem like an awesome assest, but they're exalted feats. By 10th lvl you'll have a hard time getting excited about your new bonus feats. "wooo. I get a +4 vs charm effects, but I'm no longer allowed to have sex." There simply arent enough exalted feats to make that part of the equation balanced. Paladins and monks have plenty of exalted feats to take. A psion or barbarian has a little less. That said, make sure your player understands what being an exalted character is all about. There might be some great benifits in VoP, but its got some drawbacks too. Right now I'm creating a Feral Changling Barbarian Warshaper Bear Warrior. Its for an arena game, and in all honesty I'm doing so because in bear form I cant use many magical items. Its not all gravy though, I'm having a hard time picking my last exalted feats. Most of them just suck. Alot. There are some more exalted feats in Champions of Valor, but thats it. Unlike vile feats, which seem to come out regurlarly,(and is the one reason a vile vow of poverty would most likely be unbalanced).
CryoSilver 05-09-07, 08:23 PM	If the RP requirements of Vow of Poverty are enforced, you're going to hear a lot of in-party bickering, since the VoP character should be constantly trying to 'save' the other members of the party. Remember, if you have an exalted feat, you are not allowed to do anything evil, ever. That may include allowing your teammates to do evil things.
Nephlite 05-09-07, 09:33 PM	If the RP requirements of Vow of Poverty are enforced, you're going to hear a lot of in-party bickering, since the VoP character should be constantly trying to 'save' the other members of the party. Remember, if you have an exalted feat, you are not allowed to do anything evil, ever. That may include allowing your teammates to do evil things. Unless evil, why are your allies doing evil?
AtmaWeapon 05-09-07, 09:34 PM	Vow of Poverty is extremely potent in the hands of a Monk. For most other classes, it's pretty meh. Just be aware of three things: 1) As the DM, Vow of Poverty strips you of one of the most important aspects, and that is the ability to control the power level of your campaign. Stray from the game as presented in the DMG at all, and the character with VoP will either be overpowered or underpowered. 2) The player is asking to take vow of poverty with a class that is amongst the most adept in the game at breaking it. This generally implies that the player knows full well the potential power of this feat when used properly. 3) Do not forget one of the cardinal rules of Vow of Poverty - The character must still take a normal share of the treasure. The character must donate his portion to a worthy cause, but he cannot simply choose to allow the other PCs to take larger shares. Watching magic items go *poof* can easily **** off other PCs.
Jaxgaret 05-09-07, 09:45 PM	VoP gives exactly equal to Wealth by level guidelines without choices (these are set benefits). Most DMs give less than Wealth by Level: thus most DMs complain about it being broken. IIRC VoP gives between 75-90% of Wealth by level. I forget the exact percentage. What is the deal with this "Most DMs give less than Wealth by level" assertion? I would hazard a guess that the plurality (or even majority) of games are at or close to the wealth-by-level guideline. With an equal number above that amount as below. Just because it's true in your game(s) doesn't mean it is applicable to the D&D community at large. Vow of Poverty is extremely potent in the hands of a Monk. For most other classes, it's pretty meh. Druids also benefit a fair bit from VoP.
CryoSilver 05-09-07, 10:10 PM	Unless evil, why are your allies doing evil? Do you own the BoED? Lots of things adventurers do are at least borderline evil by its standards. I know in my games, we regularly torture enemies, and execute helpless foes. We're also not above cheating, lying, stealing or using poison.
Nephlite 05-09-07, 10:55 PM	Do you own the BoED? Lots of things adventurers do are at least borderline evil by its standards. I know in my games, we regularly torture enemies, and execute helpless foes. We're also not above cheating, lying, stealing or using poison. Lying is not evil (not good though) Stealing is chaotic Poison is not evil: even good creatures have it and use it (in fact there is a Coatyl, might be spelled wrong, in DMG that is LG)! Torture is evil, but executing helpless isn't unless you are doing something wrong. Hold Person + Coup de Gra is not evil ask Cut Serv or Sage, both agree that it is allowed by Paladins.
CryoSilver 05-09-07, 11:02 PM	In regular D&D, sure, but by BoED standards, these are evil.
Guy42 05-09-07, 11:04 PM	Lying is not evil (not good though) Stealing is chaotic Poison is not evil: even good creatures have it and use it (in fact there is a Coatyl, might be spelled wrong, in DMG that is LG)! Torture is evil, but executing helpless isn't unless you are doing something wrong. Hold Person + Coup de Gra is not evil ask Cut Serv or Sage, both agree that it is allowed by Paladins. But NOT allowed by exalted rules. Exalted is uber-good, you really need the book to get it all. On VoP: Depends on a few things: Wealth, as said. Also the ability to freely have any magic item you need made for you. The second one can be ignored dependant on how much a DM is willing to just hand out good stuff, the first is always true. Take for example, a low-magic, hence, low-wealth(as most wealth goes to magic items) world, VoP would be very good there, however, in a world with higher wealth, and where you have free access to mostly any magic item you would need, VoP would be a weak choice.
Nephlite 05-10-07, 12:05 AM	But NOT allowed by exalted rules. Exalted is uber-good, you really need the book to get it all. On VoP: Depends on a few things: Wealth, as said. Also the ability to freely have any magic item you need made for you. The second one can be ignored dependant on how much a DM is willing to just hand out good stuff, the first is always true. Take for example, a low-magic, hence, low-wealth(as most wealth goes to magic items) world, VoP would be very good there, however, in a world with higher wealth, and where you have free access to mostly any magic item you would need, VoP would be a weak choice. page 11: death penalty not evil. Thus not evil to kill helpless.
MageWeasel 05-10-07, 01:47 AM	Death penalty is definitely lawful, but killing the helpless before they've been through some sort of trial and found guilty seems pretty evil to me.
Zardnaar 05-10-07, 01:52 AM	It a meh feat. It makes the monk somewhat better but thats a weak class anyway. Its probably broken when a Druid gets wildshape.
Cantuse 05-10-07, 03:24 AM	I have an excel based character generator that I've been designing on my spare time; and about a month ago I added a majority of the code for Vow of Poverty. Many people think its fairly weak; I disagree: Here is a character (using an admittedly powerful set of stat rolls), a monk at first level with VoP. Monk w/ VoP: human monk 1; CR 1; Medium humanoid; hp 10; Init +3; Spd 30ft. ; AC 21, touch 17 , flat-flooted 18; Base Atk +0; Grp +3; Atk +3 melee (1d6+3, unarmed strike); or ranged +3. Full Atk +3 or +1/+1 melee (1d6+3, unarmed strike); or ranged +0. AL LG; SV Fort +4 Ref +5 Will +6; Str 16, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 18, Cha 10. Skills and Feats: Balance +5, Climb +5, Concentration +4, Diplomacy +6, Knowledge (religion) +3, Listen +6, Move Silently +5, Sense Motive +6, Spot +6, Tumble +7; Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty. Special Abilities/Qualities: Flurry of Blows. If you allow the unearthed arcana flaws, here is an even more insane variant: Monk w/ VoP: human monk 1; CR 1; Medium humanoid; hp 10; Init +3; Spd 30ft. ; AC 27, touch 19 , flat-flooted 22; Base Atk +0; Grp +3; Atk +3 melee (1d6+3, unarmed strike); or ranged +3. Full Atk +3 or +1/+1 melee (1d6+3, unarmed strike); or ranged +0. AL LG; SV Fort +4 Ref +5 Will +6; Str 16, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 18, Cha 10. Skills and Feats: Balance +5, Climb +5, Concentration +4, Diplomacy +10, Knowledge (religion) +3, Listen +6, Move Silently +5, Sense Motive +6, Spot +6, Tumble +7; Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Shaky, Murky Eyed, Vow of Nonviolence, Vow of Peace. Special Abilities/Qualities: Flurry of Blows In particular, note the AC of these two characters at first level. Coupled with the all good saves and the other benefits of VoP this stacks up to be an extremely viable character. Now, lets look at the same character at 20th level: Monk w/ VoP: human monk 20; CR 20; Medium humanoid; hp 145; Init +8; Spd 90ft. ; AC 51, touch 35 , flat-flooted 39; Base Atk +15; Grp +21; Atk +28 melee (2d10+11, +5 unarmed strike); or ranged +23. Full Atk +26/+21/+16//+21/+18/+13 or +28/+28/+28/+23/+18///+28/+25/+20 melee (2d10+11, +5 unarmed strike;2d10+8, unarmed strike); or ranged +17/+12/+7. AL LG; SV Fort +16 Ref +23 Will +23; Str 22, Dex 26, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 26, Cha 15. Skills and Feats: Balance +25, Climb +11, Concentration +6, Diplomacy +30, Hide +23, Jump +13, Listen +18, Move Silently +23, Sense Motive +18, Spot +18, Swim +11, Tumble +30; Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Shaky, Murky Eyed, Vow of Nonviolence, Vow of Peace, Combat Reflexes, Improved Disarm, Intuitive Attack, Nymph's Kiss, Nimbus of Light, Stigmata, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Vow of Purity, Sanctify Ki Strike, Fist of the Heavens, Favored of the Companions, Holy Ki Strike, Holy Radiance, Fists of Iron. Special Abilities/Qualities: Timeless Body, Evasion (Ex), Flurry of Blows, Still Mind (Ex), Ki Strike (adamantine), Purity of Body (Ex), Slow Fall any distance (Ex), Wholeness of Body ( Su; 40hp per day), Improved Evasion (Ex), Diamond Body (Su), Abudant Step (Su), Diamond Soul (Ex), Quivering Palm (Su), Tongue of the Sun and Moon (Ex), Empty Body (Su), Perfect Self. Granted, you might find some minor errors, but the gist is there. A 51 AC, an incredible number of attacks, and a set of class and VoP abilities that virtually render the character immune to everything. You might feel that its not worth it to take VoP at first level; simply swap it out for Aberrant Dragonmark (shield) at first level and replace Nymph's Kiss with VoP for an extra 4 shield AC in a pinch. It's not Pun Pun, but its an extremely powerful character who unfortunately has to deal nonlethal damage to all sentient opponents. It would be a great roleplaying challenge and could be great fun but still, I would hesitate suggesting this build to any body who isn't serious about RP'ing the Vow feats properly. Lastly, here is a 20th level monk//fighter gestalt with VoP to show you the sheer insanity of a monk with a full BAB and VoP (he's missing 5 fighter feats because my program ran out of room at 30 feats :D): Monk w/ VoP: human monk 20/fighter 20 (gestalt); CR 20; Medium humanoid; hp 180; Init +12; Spd 90ft. ; AC 51, touch 35 , flat-flooted 39; Base Atk +20; Grp +26; Atk +35 melee (2d10+15/19-20, +5 unarmed strike); or ranged +28. Full Atk +35/+30/+25/+20//+30/+27/+22 or +35/+35/+35/+30/+25/+20//+30/+27/+22 melee (2d10+15/19-20, +5 unarmed strike;2d10+7/19-20, unarmed strike); or ranged +28/+23/+18/+12. AL LG; SV Fort +16 Ref +23 Will +12; Str 22, Dex 26, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 26, Cha 15. Skills and Feats: Balance +25, Climb +11, Concentration +6, Diplomacy +30, Hide +23, Jump +13, Listen +18, Move Silently +23, Sense Motive +18, Spot +18, Swim +11, Tumble +30; Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Shaky, Murky Eyed, Vow of Nonviolence, Vow of Peace, Combat Reflexes, Improved Disarm, Intuitive Attack, Nymph's Kiss, Nimbus of Light, Stigmata, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Vow of Purity, Sanctify Ki Strike, Fist of the Heavens, Favored of the Companions, Holy Ki Strike, Holy Radiance, Fists of Iron, Improved Critical (unarmed strike), Weapon Focus (unarmed strike), Weapon Specialization (unarmed strike), Greater Weapon Focus (unarmed strike), Greater Weapon Specialization (unarmed strike). Special Abilities/Qualities: Timeless Body, Evasion (Ex), Flurry of Blows, Still Mind (Ex), Ki Strike (adamantine), Purity of Body (Ex), Slow Fall any distance (Ex), Wholeness of Body ( Su; 40hp per day), Improved Evasion (Ex), Diamond Body (Su), Abudant Step (Su), Diamond Soul (Ex), Quivering Palm (Su), Tongue of the Sun and Moon (Ex), Empty Body (Su), Perfect Self. Languages: Common, Celestial.
Ogg 05-10-07, 10:21 AM	Yeah. Here's really the meat of it. In a low powered campaign it can be seen as too powerful, mainly with monks because the armor AC stacks with their AC. It's hard to not take it as a lawful good monk in such a campaign. In a medium or high powered campaign where you can go into "magic shops" & have access to most magic items it's not as powerful so long as the characters are getting decent money. Basic limiting factors are. Are you ok using a simple weapon? Are you ok with no spell book? Are you ok with no costly spell components? Are you ok with light armor to start? Every DM who I've run into that doesn't like it is running a low magic or cash world. Hence, they didn't like it.
the_Luggage 05-11-07, 11:38 AM	I currently play in an Ebberon game with a Vow of Poverty holding Monk. He's not that overpowered in my opinion, though it is annoying to have him around sometimes- for example, we need to buy passage on an airship to another continent, which is damned expensive. He doesn't have any money, and expects us to pay for it. We've taken to calling it the vow of sponging. I don't like any of the vows really- I'm of the opinion that you should just roleplay the disadvantage and not expect advantages. (I'm not saying my way is best or anything, but I'd disallow them in my game without a really strong argument)
AvatarOfMediocrity 05-14-07, 02:26 AM	I play a VoP monk (just hit lvl 26) in a fairly high-powered FRCS campaign and have endured much good-natured ribbing about the "swiss-army knife" nature of my character. I took VoP at level 6 and found that my character was about equivalent in power level to the rest of the party, although I certainly had the standard monkish advantage of being just as effective when we were captured and stripped of our equipment. After lvl 10 my power curve started going up a little more sharply, but once we hit epic levels (where most of VoP's powers stop advancing) I became slightly less powerful (generally) than the rest of the party, due to their access to epic-level magic items, such as Boots of Swiftness As most people have said, it depends on the wealth level in your campiagn.
DragonDan 05-14-07, 09:28 AM	The campaign I'm currently in has a Monk/Sor with the Vow. Not too many of the players care for it (it's a big group of about a dozen players that play in different sessions each week). Some feel the Vow is broken, but most just find it annoying. He has the highest AC in the group (~30), thus is the hardest to hit, even his touch AC is in the 20s. He doesn't deal the most damage (that goes to our gish), but he is constantly dealing about 20 damage per attack that hits (2-4 attacks per round). His spell list is the real kicker. Shocking grasp rocks with his character, as does Corrisive grasp, enlarge person, shield and MA,G. He also has a feat (or PrC) that allows his monk and Sor levels to stack when considering some of his abilities, plus he has Practiced Spellcaster. After considering all of this (I'm sure there's more stuff that I can't remember) I would say that his character is broken and that removing the Vow would level his character to the rest of us.
Dazzer 05-14-07, 09:52 AM	The vow of poverty is not actually broken per say. It is powerful, extremely so! However, please compare the vow of poverty's benefits to your wealth per level guideline. You'll see it's around equivalent, and probably a little over equivalent...why you ask? Well the VoP dude, can NEVER use a magic item really. Sure, you could fudge it, and say "I borrow the rogues wand of healing to..." However, in a truly strict game, the VoP dude MUST use said items on other people, and they cannot be his. He must take his share of treasure, and build homes for orphans and whatnot. He cannot ever benefit from a potion, or spell like stoneskin, since they innately require wealth. He cannot have a spell-book, material components (since even the non-gp valued ones have a total cost of 5gp for pouch, hence, it is wealth). For Monks, Sorcs, Incarnates, god-forbid druids. Sure, it's more powerful than most, but not so much so it kills everything. +10 AC at 20th level exalted, +2 natural, +3 deflection, I think. +2 fullplate, +4 chainshirt (or + 8 bracers of armour for monk). +5 natural armour ammy, +5 ring of protection. All affordable, and leaving MUCH gold to spare at 20th level. Remember, that same fullplate can make you resistance to fire, immune to critical hits, and for a fully buffed out fullplate with every enhancement ever, 200,000gp cap, out of 760,000gp. Remember, if the VoP dude puts on armour, no more VoP. Things disallowed: Benefitting from potions (with his consent, obviously unconcious VoP's bleeding to death wouldn't lose their vow for someone healing them up!) Benefitting from wands (strict, but technically true, at 15gp a pop for a 1st level spell...) Benefitting from any item other than a non-masterwork weapon Benefitting from ANY magical item, even if it isn't yours, borrowing it is not allowed technically unless he DOESN'T use it. Using another guy's wand, sure, but not on self, unless it truly benefits a populace. Using it to defeat red dragon, no. I'm not being strict, but anything that costs money, that benefits VoP dude who willingly consents to this, bad. That said, he is allowed to benefit from: Spells cast by others on him, that cost nothing. (not from items unless they have unlimited uses) Aid from others, class features used by others (bard singing). Essentially, anything that is free, he can benefit from. He loses a huge, mega, crapton, of versatility, for his crazy benefits. What do ya mean I'm a cleric who cannot TRUE RES? 25,000gp gem. What do you mean I can't use stoneskin....? Hail of stone anything that costs money That said, yes, the feat is so broken, everyone should never take it...I mean come on...+10 AC....that's horrendous *sarcasm!* I apologize, shouldn't be so sarcastic! However, the feat is balanced by the fact that it takes away, essentially everything else!
Scion of Coldshard 05-14-07, 10:17 AM	Many people think its fairly weak; I disagree: Here is a character (using an admittedly powerful set of stat rolls), a monk at first level with VoP. When compared with having a choice in gear the vow of poverty is pretty weak. Your first level human monk with vow of poverty is primarily different from a regular human monk in its +4 armor bonus and +2 sacred bonus to dipolmacy. The human monk could instead pick up dodge and deflect arrows. This gives the nonVoP monk only about 3 AC behind for regular attacks, 1 AC ahead for touch attacks, and the ability to negate a ranged attack once per round. Which of the two is better off depends on the situation. The nonVoP monk could also be well on his way to getting the higher end feats in some feat chain. If the nonVoP monk can get someone to put a mage armor on him then he catches up and passes the VoP monk in AC, at least in the above examples. The nonVoP however does not have all of the extra exalted restrictions, which is a big boost in its favor. Now, lets look at the same character at 20th level: A 51 AC, an incredible number of attacks, and a set of class and VoP abilities that virtually render the character immune to everything. Along with the inability to really hurt any living thing ;) I like the idea of VoP well enough, but I think it needs a lot more tweaking. Preferably a list of options that the DM would be able to sort through and hand out as he wanted based on the power level of the game along with not costing feats to enter.
Manic Man 05-14-07, 11:59 AM	Vow of poverty is great! For simulacrums and cohorts. I can never maintain a good alignment without drifting so VoP is out for me.
Chie 05-14-07, 01:10 PM	page 11: death penalty not evil. Thus not evil to kill helpless. The first thing you have to understand is that all of the exalted flavour and the opposite stuff in vile darkness are utter BS when it comes to good are evil. That being said though.It is evil to kill a helpless opponent.The death penalty is different because that's the law of a legitimate authority,not just you being a vigilante. Poison and torture is considered to be the tools of the truly evil.That's why the book of exalted calls them ravages and afflictions,so you can poison and torture evil creatures but it isn't evil because it's not called poison and torture. In regards to the actual topic VoP is not overpowered.It's just a fairly ridiculous idea.If you play the VoP as it is supposed to be you're way more of a hindrance and an annoyance to the party than you'll ever be of any use.As you gain in levels you gain exalted feats which generally suck unless you take some of the paladin or cleric only ones,and even then most of still aren't that good.Also the vows if you for some reason choose to take them lose effect at the slightest violation,even if it's unintentional of forced.For example if you have the vow of abstinence and you accidentally drink from the ale mug of the guy next to you,you irrevocably lose the feat and don't get another one. Others are just detrimental to the party as a whole.Vow of nonviolence not only means you can't hurt people but your allies are penalized anytime they fight as well. Furthermore,VoP means that you can't use any sort of magic item,period.You can't even borrow a potion of Cure light from one of your teammates to give to a dying child.I know a lot of you are thinking that it isn't meant to be that strict and literal,for those of you who think that I direct your attention to what I said about the vow of abstinence.And keep in mind that that applies to VoP as well.And depending on how you want to look at the wording you can't even carry magic items which means your party has to do that for you too. As for VoP with an Incarnate,don't do it unless you want the character to be really powerful.The incarnum classes are the only class in the game for whom VoP has almost no real downside since the can't really use magic items anyway as that's what their soulmelds essentially are.An incarnate with VoP could easily make himself 2 or three times tougher than a standard character without much effort. Of course if you don't mind that it's your decision.
Nephlite 05-14-07, 02:16 PM	Furthermore,VoP means that you can't use any sort of magic item,period.You can't even borrow a potion of Cure light from one of your teammates to give to a dying child.I know a lot of you are thinking that it isn't meant to be that strict and literal,for those of you who think that I direct your attention to what I said about the vow of abstinence.And keep in mind that that applies to VoP as well.And depending on how you want to look at the wording you can't even carry magic items which means your party has to do that for you too. Actually, it specifically allows potions on yourself/others as long as not yours. Of coursr you can't carry magic item if your are goinbg to use them: you can carry them to sell them (so you can give to the poor, buy more simple weapons, etc).
pupilofyah 05-15-07, 01:34 AM	Thanks for your input. I'm sure it's unintentional, but you're coming off a bit cocky. Not every game follows the same trend as yours; for example, I have no plans as of yet to pit this character against any evil outsiders. Anyway, thanks for your input, all. I did a short rewrite of the VoP progression; I added a few more bonuses but got rid of the DR X/evil and the 'exalted' type (if it doesn't stack with armor, I'll just call it armor...) and reduced the bonus feat progression to 1/3. Other than that, if not having magic items to interfere with the incarnate's soulmelds causes me any real headaches, I'll think of a solution. i havent begun to get cocky. at any rate i also said "probably attracting the attention" not say that you had to fight demons and devils but then the evil descriptor for weapons is easy to come by at the lvls that the dam. reduction occours. there are also spells and feats easily avilible that bypass this DR. now if it were 5/- dr then it would be different since only a few few exist that can deal (nothing that truly bypasses) that. as for the exalted bonus it does stack with armor but you cant have expensive armor to it rules out all but hide or less and of course not masterwork. the thing to reallize with this feat is the lack of options once taken.
Chimaera2000 05-15-07, 06:24 AM	I find a Vow of Poverty to be quite effective on a low-mid level monk 1/druid x. In general, though, it's a surprisingly well-balanced feat.
spikevampire 05-15-07, 07:07 AM	i like it because vow of poverty ability to stay with a simple tunic or dress and have superantural abilities... Like spider-man and other good guys
Cantuse 05-16-07, 01:31 PM	Along with the inability to really hurt any living thing I find interesting character designs more compelling to play that simply variations on the same damage dealing badasses. I would just monkey grip a huge goliath greathammer onto a goliath barbarian if I wanted to do damage.
Cernunnos56 05-17-07, 07:29 AM	You get a crap loads of Feats and bonueses to your Abilities and several types of AC bonuses! Did I mention loads of feats!
tiercel 05-17-07, 09:49 PM	For all the talk about VoP monks, it's always been my understanding that druids are the big winners under VoP. After all, you're generally pretty limited in how much equipment actually is useful/usable in wildshape form, whereas the full VoP benefits work no matter whether you are in humanioid or animal form. Additionally, a VoP monk is going to have deficiencies from lack of magic items (e.g. ability to fly, without getting party caster to cast spell directly), whereas a VoP druid can cover any contingencies with his spells. I'd say that VoP is quite possibly problematic for druids even in "average wealth" (e.g. standard magic item availability and roughly Wealth By Level guidelines) campaign. For monks, sorcerers, etc., VoP might seem a little too good at low levels (getting the armor bonus up front and your best / most relevant Exalted bonus feats fairly early on) but will rapidly look less special as the wealth curve of the party rises at higher levels and the VoP character runs out of genuinely interesting Exalted feats to take ("oh boy, I can glow like a lantern"). VoP is aimed at more or less "average wealth" campaigns, so as mentioned it will be quite a bit stronger in low-wealth/low-magic games, and correspondingly weaker in a higher-resource game. Also, for highly gear-dependent classes (e.g. Fighter), VoP will be quite weak in even a near-average wealth setting. Also as has been mentioned, not only does VoP come with its own code of conduct, but the whole Exalted thing is a potential minefield. You know the 10000001 discussions about "OMG the paladin fell" or "is this a paladin code violation?" Being and remaining Exalted makes the paladin code of conduct look like the suggestions of an ineffective substitute teacher on an elementary school playground by comparison.
Chie 05-17-07, 10:06 PM	Actually, it specifically allows potions on yourself/others as long as not yours. Of coursr you can't carry magic item if your are goinbg to use them: you can carry them to sell them (so you can give to the poor, buy more simple weapons, etc). Vow of poverty only allows other people to use magic items on you.You cannot borrow an item from another player to use,there is no exception to the rule for using the items to help others,hence as RAW,you cannot use magic items at all.You could always houserule that you can use a healing potion on your friends but as the feat is written you can't.
Muktar 05-17-07, 10:57 PM	I just retired my 19th lvl monk/kensai. He left with an AC of 56 that he can boost over 60 at a moment's notice. His saves were through the roof and did 3d6 + 24 dmg/hit. VoP is powerful in the beginning but peters out in later lvls. His magic items is what made him truly powerful and I usually did almost if not over 200pts dmg in a full-round action (thanks to bard co-hort). There are many other more powerful combos out there and VoP isn't one of them. Although, Vop with Vow of Non-Violence and Vow of Peace is really good but still not overpowered. Especially with the rp requirement of being exalted and the rp reqs of the other feats.
Raveni 05-17-07, 11:11 PM	Vow of poverty only allows other people to use magic items on you.You cannot borrow an item from another player to use,there is no exception to the rule for using the items to help others,hence as RAW,you cannot use magic items at all.You could always houserule that you can use a healing potion on your friends but as the feat is written you can't. Please re-read the feat description; it contradicts what you are saying. you can drink a potion of cure serious wounds a friend gives you, receive a spell cast from a wand, scroll, or staff, or ride on your companion’s ebony fly
pmurray@bigpond.com 05-18-07, 12:09 AM	because if I had a nickel for every time someone claimed that this feat is overpowered... You lose all the bonused you can get from magig items. Thats' a huge cost. Devastating. People always think of VoP monks, but monks totally need their items. Any melee class does. A VoP druid, however, is a different matter. And don't forget to be pedantic about alignment. A VoP character is not merely lawful and good (which 90% of players have trouble with anyway) - they must be exalted: a shining beacon of right, 100% of the time. I couldn't play one.
Chie 05-18-07, 12:32 AM	Please re-read the feat description; it contradicts what you are saying. You're not reading it all. What it actually says is "you can benefit from magic items used on your behalf-you can drink a potion of cure light wounds a friend gives you,receive a spell cast from a wand,scroll,or staff,or ride on your companions ebon fly.You may not,however,"borrow" a cloak of resistance or any other magic item from a companion for even a single round,nor may you yourself cast from a wand,scroll,or staff." In otherwords a friend can put a potion to your lips and you can drink it.The cleric can buff you,the druid can heal you.But you cannot actually take the potion and drink it yourself nor use any sort of magic item. Which I already previously said before.
StruckingFuggle 05-18-07, 01:20 AM	A VoP character is not merely lawful and good (which 90% of players have trouble with anyway) - they must be exalted: a shining beacon of right, 100% of the time. Wait wait wait. Since when did Exalted or even VoP, specifically, require you to be Lawful? In otherwords a friend can put a potion to your lips and you can drink it.The cleric can buff you,the druid can heal you.But you cannot actually take the potion and drink it yourself nor use any sort of magic item. Which I already previously said before. Which is pretty darn stupid, if you think about it.
Chie 05-18-07, 01:45 AM	pretty darn stupid[/I], if you think about it. You are totally wrong.You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.It's immensely darn stupid.But I draw your attention to my original post and the sarcastic comment I made about poison and torture in BoED.The entire book is fairly ridiculous,the vows especially,but that is the RAW.
StruckingFuggle 05-18-07, 01:50 AM	You are totally wrong.You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.It's immensely darn stupid. *laughs* By jove, you're right. I bow to your correctness.
danielinthewolvesden 05-18-07, 02:54 AM	Vow of Poverty is extremely potent in the hands of a Monk. Except- a Monk usually has CHA as a dump stat. He has to as he needs good numbers in everything else. BUT- most of the bonus exalted feats require a high CHA to get any decent use out of them. Same with Druid. Sorc with VoP (and Eschew materials) seems like a good combo.
StruckingFuggle 05-18-07, 03:28 AM	Except- a Monk usually has CHA as a dump stat. He has to as he needs good numbers in everything else. BUT- most of the bonus exalted feats require a high CHA to get any decent use out of them. Same with Druid. Sorc with VoP (and Eschew materials) seems like a good combo. Say what? Sure, except for Insightful Strike, which is a great exalted feat (WHY is it Exalted, though?) for a monk - especially one who takes ... Shiba Protector, was it? - the bonus feats in general, for anyone, including a sorceror, are generally fairly useless, and probably the smallest / last reason to take VoP... But just because one tiny, mostly insignificant feature doesn't give you too much of a benefit, generally, doesn't mean that the whole rest of the feat isn't good for you?
Raveni 05-18-07, 10:06 AM	You're not reading it all. What it actually says is "you can benefit from magic items used on your behalf-you can drink a potion of cure light wounds a friend gives you,receive a spell cast from a wand,scroll,or staff,or ride on your companions ebon fly.You may not,however,"borrow" a cloak of resistance or any other magic item from a companion for even a single round,nor may you yourself cast from a wand,scroll,or staff." In otherwords a friend can put a potion to your lips and you can drink it.The cleric can buff you,the druid can heal you.But you cannot actually take the potion and drink it yourself nor use any sort of magic item. Which I already previously said before. I read the whole thing. I chose not to quote the whole feat so you would go read it. That, and I was being a really big jerk, which I tried to correct by editing. Sorry. :) Saying that "You can drink a potion" doesn't mean "You can do the action drink a potion" is a pretty weird interpretation. The same can be said when you say that the friend can give you the potion, but you can't take it. I view drinking a potion your friend hands you the same as accepting a healing spell he casts on you. It's still not your potion; you're not borrowing it and saving it for a rainy day, and using it is still listed as one of the exceptions. As long as he hands it to you, and you drink it right away, it should not cause you to break your vow. Remember the paragraph you quoted is right below "with the following exceptions", so it is listing exceptions, and then telling you that you can't "borrow" cloaks or other magic items. Back to the OP, I still think that this feat isn't really worth it at high levels for a monk. You're still going to have huge problems overcoming DR, ranged attackers, flyers, etc... Still, this is quite strong for a Druid who wild shapes regularly. The nice thing that this feat does do is that it makes you competitive. If you want to play something different, this is a nice equalizer to make up for all of the magic items you are selling to build orphanages. :)