What's the use of 'info gathering'-skill when you have 'knowledge, local' [Archive] - Wizards Community

What's the use of 'info gathering'-skill when you have 'knowledge, local' [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Nicholas the Paladin
10-10-07, 04:15 PM Hi Guys,

What's the use of the 'info gathering'-skill when you have the 'local knowledge'-skill. THe latter let's you know things, the first let's you work for that info.

Don't these two skills do the same?
InkBlot
10-10-07, 06:03 PM No, not really.

Gather Info can tell you a lot more than Knowledge (Local) can. Gather Info can be used to find any piece of information that anybody in the community might know. Gather Info lets you tap into the head librarian's Knowledge (The Planes) and a pick out the one guy in the bar who has max ranks in Knowledge (Geography).

The information you obtain with Gather Info is also a lot more current than the information you have due to Knowledge (Local) ranks. You can use Gather Info to learn what happened down on the south docks last night. You can use Knowledge (Local) to know where the south docks are and that they have a history of drunken sailor fights.

Gather Information can be used more often. If you fail a Knowledge check then you can't retry it until next level, and even then only if you put another rank in it. If you fail a Gather Information check, then you can retry immediately. If you don't know something then you don't know it, and educating yourself can be a difficult time consuming task. On the other hand, if Jim the shoeshine hasn't heard any good gossip today, then you can still go ask Bill the barber.

However, Gather Information has some serious limitations. It can only be used in a populated area -- a village, town, or city. Sometimes you need to make Knowledge checks in the middle of a dungeon (if the treasure is guarded by a riddle-loving Sphinx for instance). You're also limited by what the people in town know. No matter how high you roll on your Gather Information, if the town's historian died in a housefire that also destroyed all his notes then you're not going to be able to use Gather Information to find out the founder's wife's mother's best friend's horse's name.

And then there's Urban Tracking. It's a feat from the Eberron Campaign Setting (and a few other books) that allows you to track people through a cities and towns by making Gather Information checks.
Nicholas the Paladin
10-11-07, 01:30 AM Thank you, you convinced me of the use of 'Info gathering'.

What I have against this skill though, is that it gives me the feeling of spending a skill-check in stead of actually roleplaying the interviews. The latter we always do. Info gathering sounds, in a way, as too easy. Maybe I don't give enough credit to this skill (it is indeed very usefull), but maybe it also doesn't fit our way of gaming....even though it might save us a lot of time once in a while :D

Or do I misunderstand?
ArcTan
10-11-07, 01:36 AM Gather Information, like any other social skill, gives you a mechanical benchmark for how your character power affects how well things go, so that the DM doesn't have to go just based on gut instinct or unfairly bias things toward players who are better at talking in real life.

It doesn't actually *substitute* for the roleplayed conversation. You have to determine what questions you actually ask, and from whom, when you make your Gather Information check. The check just tells the DM how well your character is supposed to hit it off with the locals and how much information to give you. How that actually plays out is up to you.

It's no different from how rolling to hit just tells whether or not you hit -- what the hit actually looks and feels like is still up to you and the DM.
Nicholas the Paladin
10-11-07, 02:00 AM Then maybe I'm one of those guys who is naturally skillfull (in real life) at talking to people and asking the right questions. I guess I don't need this skill ;)

(...I truly see the use of this skill, but maybe it just isn't that usefull to me)
Fireclave
10-11-07, 02:54 AM Then maybe I'm one of those guys who is naturally skillfull (in real life) at talking to people and asking the right questions. I guess I don't need this skill

(...I truly see the use of this skill, but maybe it just isn't that usefull to me)

It's also a useful time saver. A single Gather Info check constitutes 1d4+1 hours of tracking and following leads, talking with the average joes, schmoozing with the nobles, sitting in the dark corner of the bar while listening in on other people conversations, paging through the Sharn Inquisitive, enduring that Ranty McLongbeard's rant about "the good 'ol days" (for the 5th time), then piecing together all small tidbits of information to sort out the relevant facts from the rumors, hearsay, and gossip.

Important conversations should be roleplayed, especially if they are with NPCs of notable worth (such as those who actually have names :P), if they are likely to result in vital information, or if they will lead to an encounter. But 1d4+1 hours of what equates to you going around and asking "would you like to take a survey" is probably best handled by the dice. This is especially true if you are playing in an urban campaign where Gather Information checks would be rolled on a regularly, and your character may interact with dozens of "extras" and "walk-ons" each day.

Gather Info is not so important in situations were your character personally knows everyone whom he would go to if he needed information or could easily come to know those people personally, such as might be the case if your character lived in a (very) small town, worked closely guild or similar association, or if the number of people to gather information from is limited, such as interacting with a small party of kobolds your party just happened to run into, sharing a prison cell, out to see on a naval ship, etc.
ArcTan
10-11-07, 03:16 AM Then maybe I'm one of those guys who is naturally skillfull (in real life) at talking to people and asking the right questions. I guess I don't need this skill ;)

(...I truly see the use of this skill, but maybe it just isn't that usefull to me)

The point is that it's not fair to let your character be "naturally good" at Gathering Information if he has a Cha of 8 and no ranks in the skill. It means that you can always dump the Cha stat and never have to worry about it, thus strengthening your character (because you can either put more points into Dex and Con or put your good stat rolls into Dex and Co). It's not fair to other players who might want to play the "talky Rogue" character but aren't as good at speaking as you.
wizarddog
10-11-07, 03:25 AM Use the skill only if the PC say "I start asking around..." If they succeed they talk to someone who has that information (but must role-play it out of them). If they fail they talk to someone who knows nothing (but they don't know that). ;)
ArcTan
10-11-07, 03:57 AM One check doesn't represent one conversation -- it represents a whole afternoon of bar-hopping (or park-bench-hopping, or online-chatroom-hopping, depending on what setting you're doing this in) and then gives you the results.

You should roleplay any *important* conversations that take place as a result of this, sure, but it is absolutely not necessary to simulate this entire process in real time with actual interviews with 20 NPC barflies.
Naderion
10-11-07, 11:57 AM In our game, we make gatehr information checks with the diplomacy skill. Gather information is very specific and you usually don't have much points to spend on social skills, so I think this works better.
Operation_Shoestring
10-12-07, 04:04 AM In our game, we make gatehr information checks with the diplomacy skill. Gather information is very specific and you usually don't have much points to spend on social skills, so I think this works better.

Yeah, they really need to streamline skills some.

Opening locks with disable device is another. Only rogues really do this, and making them use two separate skills is just penalizing them.

I'm also in favor of allowing Sleight of Hand instead of Bluff for feinting, just as an alternate option.
1 ton ghost
10-12-07, 10:35 AM Gather Info is the long term hunt and peck for clues. not terribly specific info depending on what it is you want. open to DM's discretion alot
Knowledge is far more refined and what you know immediately. that is, you don't have to dig around for several hours. typically, the PC is better versed in said info w/ the knowledge check given extensive study and all, but it's the immediacy of the intel that is usually more helpful, ie)combat, etc.
Kyuketsukiouji
10-13-07, 10:34 PM Because it's not "Knowledge (Local)", it's "Knowledge(Local(name of a place)).

And if you're not in that place, you're boned.
Fireclave
10-13-07, 11:53 PM @Kyuketsukiouji: Although that's true in some settings, by RAW, Knowledge (Local) is not location specific.

@No one in particular: The way I interpret it, Knowledge (Local) is Knowledge (Know interesting stuff about urban places). A person with high ranks of Knowledge (Local) would know alot about different towns/cities/settlements, their laws, customs, histories, ect.

Gather Information doesn't represent a particular body knowledge at all. Instead it represents your ability to investigate something by interviewing, interacting with, and extracting information from people. Though I can see merging Gather Info with Diplomacy.
SearcherOmega
10-14-07, 06:56 PM Our groups tend to make good use of Gather Information checks, particularly during mystery plot arcs. Depending on how urban your campaign is, Gather Info's usefulness can be anything from trivial to essential. Knowledge skills are also pretty big for a few characters in the group, too.
Nicholas the Paladin
10-15-07, 02:27 AM Our groups tend to make good use of Gather Information checks, particularly during mystery plot arcs. Depending on how urban your campaign is, Gather Info's usefulness can be anything from trivial to essential. We usually roleplay everything out and tend to find a 'gather information'-roll a bit of a spoiler. People already suggested that this doens't have to be the case, but untill now all relevent info we usually find in a 'mystery-plot' are by us asking the right questions at the right people.
But I can see that this skill could also give the group and the DM more options, since it gives the DM the possibility of giving clues when players are out of ideas.

Could you give me some description how you use the skill in you game (when dealing with some sort of mystery)?
Operation_Shoestring
10-15-07, 02:29 AM So knowledge local = stuff you might have picked up from traveling around.

Gather info = stuff you do not know, but learn from others as you ask around

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nicholas the Paladin 10-10-07, 04:15 PM	Hi Guys, What's the use of the 'info gathering'-skill when you have the 'local knowledge'-skill. THe latter let's you know things, the first let's you work for that info. Don't these two skills do the same?
InkBlot 10-10-07, 06:03 PM	No, not really. Gather Info can tell you a lot more than Knowledge (Local) can. Gather Info can be used to find any piece of information that anybody in the community might know. Gather Info lets you tap into the head librarian's Knowledge (The Planes) and a pick out the one guy in the bar who has max ranks in Knowledge (Geography). The information you obtain with Gather Info is also a lot more current than the information you have due to Knowledge (Local) ranks. You can use Gather Info to learn what happened down on the south docks last night. You can use Knowledge (Local) to know where the south docks are and that they have a history of drunken sailor fights. Gather Information can be used more often. If you fail a Knowledge check then you can't retry it until next level, and even then only if you put another rank in it. If you fail a Gather Information check, then you can retry immediately. If you don't know something then you don't know it, and educating yourself can be a difficult time consuming task. On the other hand, if Jim the shoeshine hasn't heard any good gossip today, then you can still go ask Bill the barber. However, Gather Information has some serious limitations. It can only be used in a populated area -- a village, town, or city. Sometimes you need to make Knowledge checks in the middle of a dungeon (if the treasure is guarded by a riddle-loving Sphinx for instance). You're also limited by what the people in town know. No matter how high you roll on your Gather Information, if the town's historian died in a housefire that also destroyed all his notes then you're not going to be able to use Gather Information to find out the founder's wife's mother's best friend's horse's name. And then there's Urban Tracking. It's a feat from the Eberron Campaign Setting (and a few other books) that allows you to track people through a cities and towns by making Gather Information checks.
Nicholas the Paladin 10-11-07, 01:30 AM	Thank you, you convinced me of the use of 'Info gathering'. What I have against this skill though, is that it gives me the feeling of spending a skill-check in stead of actually roleplaying the interviews. The latter we always do. Info gathering sounds, in a way, as too easy. Maybe I don't give enough credit to this skill (it is indeed very usefull), but maybe it also doesn't fit our way of gaming....even though it might save us a lot of time once in a while :D Or do I misunderstand?
ArcTan 10-11-07, 01:36 AM	Gather Information, like any other social skill, gives you a mechanical benchmark for how your character power affects how well things go, so that the DM doesn't have to go just based on gut instinct or unfairly bias things toward players who are better at talking in real life. It doesn't actually substitute for the roleplayed conversation. You have to determine what questions you actually ask, and from whom, when you make your Gather Information check. The check just tells the DM how well your character is supposed to hit it off with the locals and how much information to give you. How that actually plays out is up to you. It's no different from how rolling to hit just tells whether or not you hit -- what the hit actually looks and feels like is still up to you and the DM.
Nicholas the Paladin 10-11-07, 02:00 AM	Then maybe I'm one of those guys who is naturally skillfull (in real life) at talking to people and asking the right questions. I guess I don't need this skill ;) (...I truly see the use of this skill, but maybe it just isn't that usefull to me)
Fireclave 10-11-07, 02:54 AM	Then maybe I'm one of those guys who is naturally skillfull (in real life) at talking to people and asking the right questions. I guess I don't need this skill (...I truly see the use of this skill, but maybe it just isn't that usefull to me) It's also a useful time saver. A single Gather Info check constitutes 1d4+1 hours of tracking and following leads, talking with the average joes, schmoozing with the nobles, sitting in the dark corner of the bar while listening in on other people conversations, paging through the Sharn Inquisitive, enduring that Ranty McLongbeard's rant about "the good 'ol days" (for the 5th time), then piecing together all small tidbits of information to sort out the relevant facts from the rumors, hearsay, and gossip. Important conversations should be roleplayed, especially if they are with NPCs of notable worth (such as those who actually have names :P), if they are likely to result in vital information, or if they will lead to an encounter. But 1d4+1 hours of what equates to you going around and asking "would you like to take a survey" is probably best handled by the dice. This is especially true if you are playing in an urban campaign where Gather Information checks would be rolled on a regularly, and your character may interact with dozens of "extras" and "walk-ons" each day. Gather Info is not so important in situations were your character personally knows everyone whom he would go to if he needed information or could easily come to know those people personally, such as might be the case if your character lived in a (very) small town, worked closely guild or similar association, or if the number of people to gather information from is limited, such as interacting with a small party of kobolds your party just happened to run into, sharing a prison cell, out to see on a naval ship, etc.
ArcTan 10-11-07, 03:16 AM	Then maybe I'm one of those guys who is naturally skillfull (in real life) at talking to people and asking the right questions. I guess I don't need this skill ;) (...I truly see the use of this skill, but maybe it just isn't that usefull to me) The point is that it's not fair to let your character be "naturally good" at Gathering Information if he has a Cha of 8 and no ranks in the skill. It means that you can always dump the Cha stat and never have to worry about it, thus strengthening your character (because you can either put more points into Dex and Con or put your good stat rolls into Dex and Co). It's not fair to other players who might want to play the "talky Rogue" character but aren't as good at speaking as you.
wizarddog 10-11-07, 03:25 AM	Use the skill only if the PC say "I start asking around..." If they succeed they talk to someone who has that information (but must role-play it out of them). If they fail they talk to someone who knows nothing (but they don't know that). ;)
ArcTan 10-11-07, 03:57 AM	One check doesn't represent one conversation -- it represents a whole afternoon of bar-hopping (or park-bench-hopping, or online-chatroom-hopping, depending on what setting you're doing this in) and then gives you the results. You should roleplay any important conversations that take place as a result of this, sure, but it is absolutely not necessary to simulate this entire process in real time with actual interviews with 20 NPC barflies.
Naderion 10-11-07, 11:57 AM	In our game, we make gatehr information checks with the diplomacy skill. Gather information is very specific and you usually don't have much points to spend on social skills, so I think this works better.
Operation_Shoestring 10-12-07, 04:04 AM	In our game, we make gatehr information checks with the diplomacy skill. Gather information is very specific and you usually don't have much points to spend on social skills, so I think this works better. Yeah, they really need to streamline skills some. Opening locks with disable device is another. Only rogues really do this, and making them use two separate skills is just penalizing them. I'm also in favor of allowing Sleight of Hand instead of Bluff for feinting, just as an alternate option.
1 ton ghost 10-12-07, 10:35 AM	Gather Info is the long term hunt and peck for clues. not terribly specific info depending on what it is you want. open to DM's discretion alot Knowledge is far more refined and what you know immediately. that is, you don't have to dig around for several hours. typically, the PC is better versed in said info w/ the knowledge check given extensive study and all, but it's the immediacy of the intel that is usually more helpful, ie)combat, etc.
Kyuketsukiouji 10-13-07, 10:34 PM	Because it's not "Knowledge (Local)", it's "Knowledge(Local(name of a place)). And if you're not in that place, you're boned.
Fireclave 10-13-07, 11:53 PM	@Kyuketsukiouji: Although that's true in some settings, by RAW, Knowledge (Local) is not location specific. @No one in particular: The way I interpret it, Knowledge (Local) is Knowledge (Know interesting stuff about urban places). A person with high ranks of Knowledge (Local) would know alot about different towns/cities/settlements, their laws, customs, histories, ect. Gather Information doesn't represent a particular body knowledge at all. Instead it represents your ability to investigate something by interviewing, interacting with, and extracting information from people. Though I can see merging Gather Info with Diplomacy.
SearcherOmega 10-14-07, 06:56 PM	Our groups tend to make good use of Gather Information checks, particularly during mystery plot arcs. Depending on how urban your campaign is, Gather Info's usefulness can be anything from trivial to essential. Knowledge skills are also pretty big for a few characters in the group, too.
Nicholas the Paladin 10-15-07, 02:27 AM	Our groups tend to make good use of Gather Information checks, particularly during mystery plot arcs. Depending on how urban your campaign is, Gather Info's usefulness can be anything from trivial to essential. We usually roleplay everything out and tend to find a 'gather information'-roll a bit of a spoiler. People already suggested that this doens't have to be the case, but untill now all relevent info we usually find in a 'mystery-plot' are by us asking the right questions at the right people. But I can see that this skill could also give the group and the DM more options, since it gives the DM the possibility of giving clues when players are out of ideas. Could you give me some description how you use the skill in you game (when dealing with some sort of mystery)?
Operation_Shoestring 10-15-07, 02:29 AM	So knowledge local = stuff you might have picked up from traveling around. Gather info = stuff you do not know, but learn from others as you ask around