What's up with ranged flanking? [Archive] - Wizards Community

What's up with ranged flanking? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
SheldonSmith
04-01-08, 01:00 PM I have had many heated discussions about this issue. AND I know that D&D is not real-life. HOWEVER,

I was a competition archer. I use an 60# composite bow. At 30ft, I can put 5 arrows in a three inch circle. Even if the target is moving I can hit a 5 inch circle every time.

In fact, I am far deadlier with my bow at 30ft than I am with a longsword at 3ft.

Why is an archer not considered flanking??????? Especially with Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. It just does not make sense to me.

In 4th edition how is flanking going to be resolved. How about a rogues sneak attack with a ranged weapon. As it is now, the rogue only gets SA bonus with a ranged weapon when the opponent is flatfooted (but not when flanked).
1 ton ghost
04-01-08, 01:19 PM Damn, that's really good grouping. Nj. I'm not sure if I could do that w/ a bow, perhaps my bolt-action .223. Still, kinda' iffy on that end. Kicked ass at bows in gym, but my XP w/ them is very limited.

Moving on.

-Flanking parties in ranged combat chew each other to pieces w/ errant missles given that they are technically on the polar opposites of the target in question. ie)It is very dangerous and you will likely hit an ally. It is preferable to have a staggered formation, even w/ projectiles.

-Balance wise, same issue. You can draw many more means of flanking at further ranges by drawing the line through the target square as it were. Long story short, the surface area of the square will accomodate more and more rays to flank farther and farther out and getting to the opposite square.

-It makes non-Full BAB types very dangerous. Mage's are notorious in the BAB dept, and a Ray at a Ranged Touch at low lvl is still uncertain. If he could now flank w/ Rays, X-Bow, etc., he'd be quite formidable.
Hsien
04-01-08, 01:19 PM It's a game mechanic. Although you can attack a square witha ranged weapon you do not "threaten" it the same way as with a melee weapon.
Note there is a alt Ranger class feature, PHII, that allows you to provide limited flanking to an ally on a succesful hit, iirc.

If I saw the 4th ed correctly, even reach weapons will not threaten at their reach length...i.e only threaten and provide flank, if within an adjacent square to enemy, even though they can attack out to 10'

Also keep in mind that trying to apply rl experience to a game does not always fit, due to game mechanic/balance issues. Plus most people don't have rl experience shooting arrows at someone while their friend is on the other side fighting them.
Lord_Varos
04-01-08, 01:23 PM Flanking doesn't result from being attacked at all. It's about constant, immediate threat and the necessity of intense footwork and maneuvering. If your opponent is 30 feet away, you are not going to be inch-by-inch maneuvering to get the optimum advantage in a melee attack. Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot have nothing to do with it because being more accurate doesn't necessitate that sort of vying, it just makes you more likely to hit.

It's about attacks of opportunity (in a figurative way). The melee combatant that is being flanked has to divide his attention between two opposite opponents to keep his defenses up to avoid attacks of oppotunity. If he drops his guard on one side, he would provoke an attack (figuratively. I'm not talking actual game terms, just using the words to make the point) and be open for it. That same combatant against a melee opponents and an archer on opposite sides need not worry about provoking the attacks of opporunity from you, and so doesn't have to keep up his melee guard.
ciaran
04-01-08, 01:46 PM I could see justifying some kind of feat or ability allowing an archer a feint (or something similar) at range under the right conditions.
Kouk
04-01-08, 01:46 PM Not so much that you can't worry about the archer, it is just much harder to keep an eye on a guy 30 feet away than it is with the two guys 5 feet away swinging at you with swords. Obviously you will be concerned about the archer, but maybe less so because you can't provoke any AoOs from him and you may be able to use his "friends" for cover.

Flanking is mostly on the part of the guy in the middle; he is taking a "penalty" for dividing his attentions -- which is easier to keep track of by just giving bonuses to the ones doing the flanking (since they are the only ones who benefit).

Note that an Invisible attacker doesn't grant or get flanking bonuses. This is because the person the Invisible guy is attacking isn't really able to see him.
In place of Flanking benefits, the Invisible guy gains his own +2 bonus against a target that can't see him, and gets to deny the target his DEX bonus. Even this could be modeled by giving the target penalties -- but it is simpler for the attacker to keep track rather than the guy who can't even see the attack coming.

It is a little wonky, but that's how it is. Maybe you just have that variant Ranger class feature :P
SheldonSmith
04-01-08, 02:02 PM This is the first time someone presented the rules from a AoO point-of-view. I think that makes sense. However, I still think that a rogue that can fire into melee when an opponent is flanked should get his sneak attack bonus....
Deathless_One
04-01-08, 04:25 PM A rogue CAN fire Sneak Attacks while two other creatures are attacking his target in melee, one from in front and one from behind. However, getting a flanking bonus from 30ft away takes away from some of the difficulty of the game. If this was the case, does that mean a wizard shooting rays could help the fighter flank his target? That'd just be plain silly. Basically, flanking works off of giving the target limited room to work with, and thus, making it harder to dodge incoming attacks. An arrow in your back is not considered to be large enough to stop you from moving, thus not denying you your dex bonus to AC.
Kouk
04-01-08, 11:11 PM A rogue CAN fire Sneak Attacks while two other creatures are attacking his target in melee, one from in front and one from behind.

Sure a rogue can Sneak Attack with arrows, but it wouldn't have anything to do with the target being flanked like that.

Unless you can deny the opponent his Dex bonus against you somehow or flank him at range somehow you aren't going to be able to Sneak Attack no matter how many of your friends are flanking him.
snakeman830
04-02-08, 10:18 AM It is, at least, possible to flank with a bow, but you have to be rather close to do so.

The feat Adaptable Flanker and the Elocator's Flanker ability can let you flank from 5ft further away when used properly. This is often just enough distance for you to safely use a bow.
Johnathan_Vagabond
04-02-08, 01:59 PM I think a ranged variant of the flanking rules for being caught in a crossfire would be appropriate though. The difficulty in dodging when faced with two ranged attackers at a 90 degree angle from the target (or more) would make a good situation to provide a +2 to attack.
Cartigan
04-02-08, 02:30 PM The thing is, bows have no threat range. Is a person fighting sword to sword with some one else going to notice that arrows are flying at him? Only after they hit or almost hit him - he is not put off his guard as he would be if another person swinging a sword at him would put him. You can only worry so much about things that are seemingly not immediate threats while a guy is standing in front of you trying to chop you up.
1 ton ghost
04-02-08, 02:41 PM I think a ranged variant of the flanking rules for being caught in a crossfire would be appropriate though. The difficulty in dodging when faced with two ranged attackers at a 90 degree angle from the target (or more) would make a good situation to provide a +2 to attack.

You do mean a Right Angle in 90 degrees, yes? Not a linear "A" to 'B' though 'C' line at 180? Perhaps some sort of trade in character ability, but I wouldn't just toss it in the mix as is. Bit broken.

Balance wise like I said, a Hell of alot more ppl can get a flank in this light, especially when they're further out. You just have to "draw a line" through the square per RAW, right? Lot of lines can fit through that one square, especially when you consider a Longbow's range increments and missle combatant spacing. Pin cushioning takes on a whole new meaning.

Flanking, though imperative in military jargon, ins't so b/w. You wouldn't dare go 180 degrees w/ direct fire. You'll kill alot of men in friendly fire shooting at and through said target (A to B). Little more leeway in urban given cover, but still, it's dangerous.

The Ranger Variant (PHB II) is super sweet. Well worth ditching the animal companion. Basically, if you hit an enemy in combat (melee or ranged) it is consider Flanked until you next attack or turn. Consider a fairly stealthy ranger & rogue fire team, especially w/ upped Speed, Woodland Stride, etc.
Johnathan_Vagabond
04-03-08, 10:13 AM I'll hash out the cross-fire idea into more concrete rules, because I agree there is alot of room for error and abuse while its still a shapless concept. I think it might also provide the OP with an lead in to allowing an allied range flank (which I would treat as a feat follow on to improved precise shot).

Special Actions in Combat:
Cross-Fire: Whenever you and at least one other ally are firing from range at the same target, at a right angle to the target, you gain a +2 to attack on the next round, provided neither you nor your ally move and both use a ranged attack. Regardless of the number of creatures initiating a cross fire, no member of the cross-fire recieves the attack bonus more than once. Cross-fire, unlike flanking, does not allow for sneak attacks.

Related Feats
Improved Crossfire: Dex 13, Point Blank Shot
In a crossfire you and your allies gain a +3 to attack instead of +2.

Crossfire!: Cha 15, Skill Focus: Perform (Song)
You gain the ability to cause targets within 30ft to yell, "Crossfire! You'll be caught up in the crossfire. Crossfire. CROSSFIRE!"

Melee Crossfire: Dex 19, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Base Attack Bonus +11
You may provide a flanking bonus while using a ranged weapon while within 30ft. So long as the line between you and your ally passes through the opponent, you may grant your ally the flanking benefit and yourself the crossfire benefit in a round following your successful ranged attack against that opponent.
Special: If you have Improved Crossfire, both you and your ally gain a +3 to attack, instead of +2.

Ex: Soveliss the ranger and Tordek the fighter are fighting a hobgoblin. Soveliss stands at range and Tordek circles around to the hobgoblin, staying on the opposite side of Soveliss who is 30ft away. Soveliss fires and strikes the Hobgoblin, Tordek misses his swing. On the next round, Tordek gains a +2 flanking bonus to attack and Soveliss gains a +2 cross-fire bonus to attack.
gixanthrax
04-03-08, 10:46 AM I think the whisperknife from Races of the Wild gets a ranged flank, but only for thrown weapons .
1 ton ghost
04-03-08, 12:38 PM Jon V: nice job.
If I were to adopt the ranged flanking system, I would use your frame here. I'm particularly impressed you ommitted Sneak Attack in this mode, wise choice. Is this system applicable then at all ranges? Certain range increments, etc?

And the song quip...:D
That took me back, though I must confess I immediatley raced to "X-Fire" by The Bens (Ben Kweller, Ben Harper, etc), spin off of Ben Folds Five. Super cheese, but funny.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SheldonSmith 04-01-08, 01:00 PM	I have had many heated discussions about this issue. AND I know that D&D is not real-life. HOWEVER, I was a competition archer. I use an 60# composite bow. At 30ft, I can put 5 arrows in a three inch circle. Even if the target is moving I can hit a 5 inch circle every time. In fact, I am far deadlier with my bow at 30ft than I am with a longsword at 3ft. Why is an archer not considered flanking??????? Especially with Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. It just does not make sense to me. In 4th edition how is flanking going to be resolved. How about a rogues sneak attack with a ranged weapon. As it is now, the rogue only gets SA bonus with a ranged weapon when the opponent is flatfooted (but not when flanked).
1 ton ghost 04-01-08, 01:19 PM	Damn, that's really good grouping. Nj. I'm not sure if I could do that w/ a bow, perhaps my bolt-action .223. Still, kinda' iffy on that end. Kicked ass at bows in gym, but my XP w/ them is very limited. Moving on. -Flanking parties in ranged combat chew each other to pieces w/ errant missles given that they are technically on the polar opposites of the target in question. ie)It is very dangerous and you will likely hit an ally. It is preferable to have a staggered formation, even w/ projectiles. -Balance wise, same issue. You can draw many more means of flanking at further ranges by drawing the line through the target square as it were. Long story short, the surface area of the square will accomodate more and more rays to flank farther and farther out and getting to the opposite square. -It makes non-Full BAB types very dangerous. Mage's are notorious in the BAB dept, and a Ray at a Ranged Touch at low lvl is still uncertain. If he could now flank w/ Rays, X-Bow, etc., he'd be quite formidable.
Hsien 04-01-08, 01:19 PM	It's a game mechanic. Although you can attack a square witha ranged weapon you do not "threaten" it the same way as with a melee weapon. Note there is a alt Ranger class feature, PHII, that allows you to provide limited flanking to an ally on a succesful hit, iirc. If I saw the 4th ed correctly, even reach weapons will not threaten at their reach length...i.e only threaten and provide flank, if within an adjacent square to enemy, even though they can attack out to 10' Also keep in mind that trying to apply rl experience to a game does not always fit, due to game mechanic/balance issues. Plus most people don't have rl experience shooting arrows at someone while their friend is on the other side fighting them.
Lord_Varos 04-01-08, 01:23 PM	Flanking doesn't result from being attacked at all. It's about constant, immediate threat and the necessity of intense footwork and maneuvering. If your opponent is 30 feet away, you are not going to be inch-by-inch maneuvering to get the optimum advantage in a melee attack. Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot have nothing to do with it because being more accurate doesn't necessitate that sort of vying, it just makes you more likely to hit. It's about attacks of opportunity (in a figurative way). The melee combatant that is being flanked has to divide his attention between two opposite opponents to keep his defenses up to avoid attacks of oppotunity. If he drops his guard on one side, he would provoke an attack (figuratively. I'm not talking actual game terms, just using the words to make the point) and be open for it. That same combatant against a melee opponents and an archer on opposite sides need not worry about provoking the attacks of opporunity from you, and so doesn't have to keep up his melee guard.
ciaran 04-01-08, 01:46 PM	I could see justifying some kind of feat or ability allowing an archer a feint (or something similar) at range under the right conditions.
Kouk 04-01-08, 01:46 PM	Not so much that you can't worry about the archer, it is just much harder to keep an eye on a guy 30 feet away than it is with the two guys 5 feet away swinging at you with swords. Obviously you will be concerned about the archer, but maybe less so because you can't provoke any AoOs from him and you may be able to use his "friends" for cover. Flanking is mostly on the part of the guy in the middle; he is taking a "penalty" for dividing his attentions -- which is easier to keep track of by just giving bonuses to the ones doing the flanking (since they are the only ones who benefit). Note that an Invisible attacker doesn't grant or get flanking bonuses. This is because the person the Invisible guy is attacking isn't really able to see him. In place of Flanking benefits, the Invisible guy gains his own +2 bonus against a target that can't see him, and gets to deny the target his DEX bonus. Even this could be modeled by giving the target penalties -- but it is simpler for the attacker to keep track rather than the guy who can't even see the attack coming. It is a little wonky, but that's how it is. Maybe you just have that variant Ranger class feature :P
SheldonSmith 04-01-08, 02:02 PM	This is the first time someone presented the rules from a AoO point-of-view. I think that makes sense. However, I still think that a rogue that can fire into melee when an opponent is flanked should get his sneak attack bonus....
Deathless_One 04-01-08, 04:25 PM	A rogue CAN fire Sneak Attacks while two other creatures are attacking his target in melee, one from in front and one from behind. However, getting a flanking bonus from 30ft away takes away from some of the difficulty of the game. If this was the case, does that mean a wizard shooting rays could help the fighter flank his target? That'd just be plain silly. Basically, flanking works off of giving the target limited room to work with, and thus, making it harder to dodge incoming attacks. An arrow in your back is not considered to be large enough to stop you from moving, thus not denying you your dex bonus to AC.
Kouk 04-01-08, 11:11 PM	A rogue CAN fire Sneak Attacks while two other creatures are attacking his target in melee, one from in front and one from behind. Sure a rogue can Sneak Attack with arrows, but it wouldn't have anything to do with the target being flanked like that. Unless you can deny the opponent his Dex bonus against you somehow or flank him at range somehow you aren't going to be able to Sneak Attack no matter how many of your friends are flanking him.
snakeman830 04-02-08, 10:18 AM	It is, at least, possible to flank with a bow, but you have to be rather close to do so. The feat Adaptable Flanker and the Elocator's Flanker ability can let you flank from 5ft further away when used properly. This is often just enough distance for you to safely use a bow.
Johnathan_Vagabond 04-02-08, 01:59 PM	I think a ranged variant of the flanking rules for being caught in a crossfire would be appropriate though. The difficulty in dodging when faced with two ranged attackers at a 90 degree angle from the target (or more) would make a good situation to provide a +2 to attack.
Cartigan 04-02-08, 02:30 PM	The thing is, bows have no threat range. Is a person fighting sword to sword with some one else going to notice that arrows are flying at him? Only after they hit or almost hit him - he is not put off his guard as he would be if another person swinging a sword at him would put him. You can only worry so much about things that are seemingly not immediate threats while a guy is standing in front of you trying to chop you up.
1 ton ghost 04-02-08, 02:41 PM	I think a ranged variant of the flanking rules for being caught in a crossfire would be appropriate though. The difficulty in dodging when faced with two ranged attackers at a 90 degree angle from the target (or more) would make a good situation to provide a +2 to attack. You do mean a Right Angle in 90 degrees, yes? Not a linear "A" to 'B' though 'C' line at 180? Perhaps some sort of trade in character ability, but I wouldn't just toss it in the mix as is. Bit broken. Balance wise like I said, a Hell of alot more ppl can get a flank in this light, especially when they're further out. You just have to "draw a line" through the square per RAW, right? Lot of lines can fit through that one square, especially when you consider a Longbow's range increments and missle combatant spacing. Pin cushioning takes on a whole new meaning. Flanking, though imperative in military jargon, ins't so b/w. You wouldn't dare go 180 degrees w/ direct fire. You'll kill alot of men in friendly fire shooting at and through said target (A to B). Little more leeway in urban given cover, but still, it's dangerous. The Ranger Variant (PHB II) is super sweet. Well worth ditching the animal companion. Basically, if you hit an enemy in combat (melee or ranged) it is consider Flanked until you next attack or turn. Consider a fairly stealthy ranger & rogue fire team, especially w/ upped Speed, Woodland Stride, etc.
Johnathan_Vagabond 04-03-08, 10:13 AM	I'll hash out the cross-fire idea into more concrete rules, because I agree there is alot of room for error and abuse while its still a shapless concept. I think it might also provide the OP with an lead in to allowing an allied range flank (which I would treat as a feat follow on to improved precise shot). Special Actions in Combat: Cross-Fire: Whenever you and at least one other ally are firing from range at the same target, at a right angle to the target, you gain a +2 to attack on the next round, provided neither you nor your ally move and both use a ranged attack. Regardless of the number of creatures initiating a cross fire, no member of the cross-fire recieves the attack bonus more than once. Cross-fire, unlike flanking, does not allow for sneak attacks. Related Feats Improved Crossfire: Dex 13, Point Blank Shot In a crossfire you and your allies gain a +3 to attack instead of +2. Crossfire!: Cha 15, Skill Focus: Perform (Song) You gain the ability to cause targets within 30ft to yell, "Crossfire! You'll be caught up in the crossfire. Crossfire. CROSSFIRE!" Melee Crossfire: Dex 19, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Base Attack Bonus +11 You may provide a flanking bonus while using a ranged weapon while within 30ft. So long as the line between you and your ally passes through the opponent, you may grant your ally the flanking benefit and yourself the crossfire benefit in a round following your successful ranged attack against that opponent. Special: If you have Improved Crossfire, both you and your ally gain a +3 to attack, instead of +2. Ex: Soveliss the ranger and Tordek the fighter are fighting a hobgoblin. Soveliss stands at range and Tordek circles around to the hobgoblin, staying on the opposite side of Soveliss who is 30ft away. Soveliss fires and strikes the Hobgoblin, Tordek misses his swing. On the next round, Tordek gains a +2 flanking bonus to attack and Soveliss gains a +2 cross-fire bonus to attack.
gixanthrax 04-03-08, 10:46 AM	I think the whisperknife from Races of the Wild gets a ranged flank, but only for thrown weapons .
1 ton ghost 04-03-08, 12:38 PM	Jon V: nice job. If I were to adopt the ranged flanking system, I would use your frame here. I'm particularly impressed you ommitted Sneak Attack in this mode, wise choice. Is this system applicable then at all ranges? Certain range increments, etc? And the song quip...:D That took me back, though I must confess I immediatley raced to "X-Fire" by The Bens (Ben Kweller, Ben Harper, etc), spin off of Ben Folds Five. Super cheese, but funny.