Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Emirikol 03-29-07, 11:30 AM	Would I break D&D if I added 6 skill points per level for all classes? I already have the following house rules: 1) Slower level advancement; 2) No cross-class skill penalties. Are skills the most benign thing you can change in the game for slower-advancing campaigns? Any thoughts on the effects of such a move? jh
tarkin 03-29-07, 11:38 AM	You appear to have remove 50% of the reason to take Rogue (more skill points and almost no cross-class skills). If you let people take Sneak Attack as a feat, then no one will play them at all.
Emirikol 03-29-07, 11:42 AM	How about other aspects of the game? Would I break D&D by doing this? If I'm running a campaign at 50% x.p. and loot handouts, I've got to have some kind of balance. I figure that skills are the least upsetting of a balance. Is it true? I don't worry about a lack of rogues in our campaigns..we play in Hyboria... ;) jh
Jaxgaret 03-29-07, 12:03 PM	Your changes would make qualification for many PrCs easier. Basically, any PrC that has semi-useless skill requirements or skill requirements that are cross-class for the class(es) that normally go for that particular PrC will not be as hard or as pricy to get into, and therefore will be slightly unbalanced to their previous power levels as a consequence. But it probably won't make that big of a difference. My only qualm is your blanket "6 more skill points for everyone!" stance. I think doubling skill points per level would be more fair. I.E. Fighters would get 4 sp/level, Druids would get 8 sp/level, Rangers would get 12 sp/level, and Rogues would get 16 sp/level.
northern_bear 03-29-07, 12:21 PM	Assuming average inteligence, a rogue gets 8 skill points per level and a fighter gets 2. So the rogue gets FOUR TIMES as many skill points as the fighter does. If you give them each 6 extra skill points, then the rogue gets 14 per level and the fighter gets 8. Now the rogue doesn't even get twice as many as the fighter. The advantage of being a rogue is not just that you get more skill points than other characters, but that RELATIVELY speaking, you get way more. Giving everybody an extra 6 skill seriously reduces one of the rogue's main advantages. Also, with only 2 skill points per level, fighters, paladins, clerics, and sorcerors really have to think very carefully about which skills to take. This is one of the downsides of playing such a class. With 8 skill points per level, they no longer have to worry nearly as much about where to spend their precious few skill points. So you've gotten rid of one of the main weakness of these classes. In short, 6 extra skill points per level eliminates one othe Rogue's main advanatages, and also emiliminates one of the fighter's main weaknesses. Bad idea. If you want your characters to use their skill more often, then try doubling the skill points they get at each level. This will preserve the relative strengths of the classes as far as skill poitns go. Although I still suspect it would be of more use to fighter, cleric types than to rogues and rangers.
Inigo Carmine 03-29-07, 03:05 PM	You are essentially giving out the rogue's major class feature to everyone else, even if you give them more of it. You're doing the same thing as handing out full cleric spell progression to everyone (sans wisdom requirement), and giving the cleric an extra 2 spells per spell level. There's little reason to play a cleric anymore. And that is just one aspect of the interclass balance. It throws the PCs out of whack with the rest of the game design as well. How powerful PCs are compared to enemies, ease of entering prestige classs, etc. I think it's an extremely bad idea unless you also plan on adding massive system changes on the magnitude of completely designing another rpg from the ground up.
Naderion 03-29-07, 03:16 PM	We added 2 skill points at each level for all classes for our NWN2-Server because we add several skills the game usually does not have. For usual D&D I'd think even that risky.
Tonil 03-29-07, 03:17 PM	More skill points each level helps to overcome the cross-class penalty. No cross-class penalty helps to overcome low skill points each level. I might do one or the other but not both. One other option is to give the feats that give skill bonuses to be bonus feats. You could even scale these based on class. For example, rogue gets one every other level, ranger every three levels, etc.
allenchan 03-29-07, 03:55 PM	I've often played with house rules such as "Everyone gets 2 more then usual". I even think the doubling idea is fine, but +6 seems like just such a strange number to me, cant put my finger on it.
Nom 03-29-07, 06:45 PM	More skill points is also an indirect nerf on classes which rely on opposed checks, such as (surprise, surprise) the rogue. Currently, skills opposed by Spot, Listen or Sense Motive are either even or biased in favour of the the 'observer'. A character investing heavily in these 'defensive' skills can reasonably expect to counter a comparable investment in an 'offensive' skill. If everyone has easy access to Spot, Listen and Sense Motive, you devalue Hide, Move Silently, Intimidate and Bluff (sans glibness), since they will be unlikely to ever succeed even when practiced by experts.
allenchan 03-29-07, 08:02 PM	More skill points is also an indirect nerf on classes which rely on opposed checks, such as (surprise, surprise) the rogue. Currently, skills opposed by Spot, Listen or Sense Motive are either even or biased in favour of the the 'observer'. A character investing heavily in these 'defensive' skills can reasonably expect to counter a comparable investment in an 'offensive' skill. If everyone has easy access to Spot, Listen and Sense Motive, you devalue Hide, Move Silently, Intimidate and Bluff (sans glibness), since they will be unlikely to ever succeed even when practiced by experts. More skill points per level does not equate to more class skills. They might be more inclined to invest in cross-class skills, but thanks to the fact their maximum rank is one half your normal, a character invested in hide, move silently, etc, will still have a very clear advantage.
Emirikol 03-29-07, 08:20 PM	but +6 seems like just such a strange number to me, cant put my finger on it. I picked +6 because I knew nobody would respond to a +2 or even +4 points per level post. Is there a BREAK THRESHHOLD? jh
Someone 03-30-07, 12:48 AM	You seem awfully hung up on this "break" word. Which means you're playing a dangerous game here. You are trying to see how much disregard of the rules as written you can get away with before nobody wants to play with you. So forget about "breaking" the game. Stick with "would increasing every classes skills/level by 6 be a good idea or a bad idea?". To which, according to the responses, the answer is that it would be a bad idea. [Tirade concluded]
StevenO 03-30-07, 07:32 PM	It may not "break" the game but that is only because the game will adjust to that new normal. However it not only "breaks" the rogue, it destroys it on many levels because so many other classes can now carry out the jobs it normally does. One thing that adding so many skill points doesn't address is what about the skill rank caps? Having more different skills may help in more situations but it still doesn't help in any given situation where you'd normally expect at least one character to have a skill maxed out. How many party members need Open Lock, Disable Device, Diplomacy, and a number of other skills maxed out to be an effective party when you can normally do just fine if only one character has those skills at that level? If you find not having any skill to be a problem this may be a solution to try. Allow all characters to have "phantom" ranks in all class skills equal to 1/2 that class level. Phantom ranks stack with those from other classes but NOT from "real" ranks purchased with normal skill points. Those phantom ranks normally shouldn't apply towards meeting prereqs but may not be a big problem because they should lag far behind what the skill could be had ranks actually been put into it. Using this a basic Rogue 8 could have eight class skills maxed out at 11 ranks but have phantom +4 on all other class skills due to phantom ranks.
Lotus Crane 03-31-07, 02:41 AM	Is there a BREAK THRESHHOLD? While there is no absolute "break threshhold," there is a relative one. In other words, if characters have more skill points, as long as all characters (and presumably, monsters) have more skill points, the game will normally re-adjust itself to a new balance (though things might get needlessly complicated). However, if you only increase the skill points of some classes (those with 2+Int and 4+Int to 6+Int), and not others (those that already have 6+Int and 8+Int), you are skewing the relative balance of the game towards those classes that received upgrades. In other words, classes like bard, ranger, and rogue suddenly lose part of their relative advantages, which might be unfair. If you want to increase skills in your game, increases the skills of all classes, to maintain the same relative balance. Clerics/fighters/paladins/sorcerers/wizards would have 4+Int, barbarians/druids/monks would have 6+Int, bards/rangers would have 8+Int, and rogues would have 10+Int.
Dheran 03-31-07, 10:32 AM	If you want to increase skills in your game, increases the skills of all classes, to maintain the same relative balance. Clerics/fighters/paladins/sorcerers/wizards would have 4+Int, barbarians/druids/monks would have 6+Int, bards/rangers would have 8+Int, and rogues would have 10+Int. As Jaxgaret, northern_bear, and others have pointed out, this doesn't maintain the same relative balance. A change by a constant offset (+2 in your example) would make the other classes' ratio to Rogues' skill points significantly higher -- or, in other words, you'd be nerfing one of the main strengths of the Rogue class. An increase by a constant multiplier (2X in Jaxgaret's example) maintains the relative balance. If you're having trouble seeing this, think about making the constant offset +100. Does the difference between 102 and 108 skill points matter, at all? Hardly! Or what about a constant offset of -2? 0 skill points vs. 6 maintains the "relative balance" by the Lotus Crane method, but I don't think most people -- especially those playing Clerics who never get any ranks in Concentration, Heal, or Spellcraft -- would agree.
Fake Healer 03-31-07, 05:05 PM	Think of it this way. 10th level each class has normal skill points +60 extra. Wow. That is a huge number. I don't know about broken but dang! Fighter now has 80+ skill points at 10th level. I would say that a blanket +2 wouldn't be too bad, and even a +4 with the caveat that 2 per level be put into craft/profession/or some other flavor skills, but even then it would probably be too much. Stick with a blanket +2 per level. FH
Whisper_Swiftblade 03-31-07, 05:15 PM	Would I break D&D if I added 6 skill points per level for all classes? I already have the following house rules: 1) Slower level advancement; 2) No cross-class skill penalties. Are skills the most benign thing you can change in the game for slower-advancing campaigns? Any thoughts on the effects of such a move? jh you would make the rogue, and all his heavy skilled buddies much weaker.
Neodymium 03-31-07, 05:34 PM	Not as long as everybody is Force-Senstive. :P
Totentanz 03-31-07, 06:00 PM	You are so concerned about breaking DnD, yet you keep mentioning how low-powered your game is. Did you consider that long about level 7 the game begins to assume your characters have certain equipment? Half xp gains, sure. Half gold and you have broken DnD. You will have to change pretty much every encounter to allow for the fact that your PC's don't have enough cash.:P I honestly don't know why you are so stuck on 6 SP/level. Certain classes gain more from skill points than others. Someone else already made the point that some PrC's are balanced by odd cross-class skill reqs. That could break your game. I'd say just double the SP's for each class and see what happens. If it isn't enough the PC's can retcon the extra SP. Players won't complain about getting something, but they will complain about having it taken away.
Lixith 03-31-07, 08:40 PM	Well, i'd say it was a bad idea.... but why not try it? If it's fun and everyone in the game is on the same page, it's fine. Look at it like this... what skills are everyone going to max out? Ok so now everyone has max spot/listen/search. Can you as a DM deal with that? Nothing's going to get past these people. Your wizards will be tumbling around, allowing them to take more risks with less damage.... Everyone and their brother are going to be using scrolls wands etc... Heck, your fighter just might use spellcraft to know (a second before hand) that he's about to get toasted with a fireball.... The real question is can you deal with all that and everyone have a good time. If so, great.
muttoo 03-31-07, 10:08 PM	More characters will make INT their lowest stat.
Treymordin 04-01-07, 12:36 PM	Not a great idaea. I wouldnt do it.
hangman1 04-01-07, 10:09 PM	I think 6 across the board is a lot and does disadvantage the rogue, while making the wizard a skill machine, doubling might work - as it maintains balance - but it makes every monster a chore to use because you have to pick out a new set of appropriate skills. I've been toying with a set of rules that separate skills and allow for exta skill points that can only be used in professional and crafting skills. This won't help your characters with their sense motive checks, but you might consider giving everyone 2 or 3 skill points that can only be used on a limited set of skills, such as craft, knowledge, and profession skills. I do it mainly for roleplaying reasons, but it might work for your campaign, particularly if you keep treasure low. Give easy access to the crafting skills and your characters can improve their armaments. This is another attempt at a system that increases skills available to characters: it is on the second to last page and no one seemed interested, but a varaint may be helpful. I don't know how necessary this is, but it has always bothered me that the only way for people to get better at being a blacksmith is to kill things. It seems to me that there needs to be a mechanic, primarily for NPCs but perhaps for PCs if you play a more character-based game with long periods of downtime. I am not exactly sure how the mechanic should work, but here is an idea. Profession Ranks Requires one of the Professional Feats Choose a Professional Feat with three skills appropriate to that profession (subject to DM approval). From then on you are able to gain special ‘Profession Ranks’ in those skills. Profession ranks are not gained through class levels and are not limited by character level; they can only be attained through the practice of a craft or profession. You gain a single profession rank for each six-month period spent practicing your craft or profession to the exclusion of all other activities. Any other activity done for more than 5 consecutive days within that period negates the acquisition of professional ranks for that six month stretch. Additionally 20 total days spent on other activities (other than rest or festival periods) will negate the professional progress and negate the acquisition of a professional rank for that period. Other activities include adventuring or practicing a craft or profession not specified in your Craftsman & Professional feat. The profession rank can be placed in any of the three professions specified in your Craftsman & Professional feat but professional ranks in any one skill cannot equal more than 10 for a character below middle age, 15 for a character from middle age to old, or 20 for a character old or above. Special: For the purposes of this mechanic (and only this mechanic) Heal, Forgery, Diplomacy, Handle Animal and Appraise can be considered profession skills and be chosen as one of the three skills related to your profession. Professional Ranks do not count against the normal 3+CL rank limit but count as normal ranks for all other purposes, including qualifying for skill tricks and prestige classes. This allows the best craftspeople in your world to be others than the best killers in your world. Craftsman & Professional [Profession Feat] Pick up to three craft, knowledge, or profession skills that are related* (such as weaponsmith, blacksmith and armorer; brewer, hotelier and chef; or Diplomacy, Knowledge - Nobility and Royalty, and Knowledge - Geography). You can place special 'profession ranks' totaling greater than 3+CL in those skills. *as determined by the DM Entertainer [Profession Feat] Pick up to three perform skills. You can place special 'profession ranks' totaling greater than 3+CL in those skills. Sage [Profession Feat] Pick up to three related* knowledge skills. You can place special 'profession ranks' totaling greater than 3+CL in those skills. For the purposes of gaining Professional Ranks, study, experimentation and writing on these subjects is considered practice of the craft. *as determined by the DM Sample Professions and suggested associated skills Armorer Craft: Blacksmith, Craft: Armorsmith, Craft: Weaponsmith Beasttrainer Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge: Nature Diplomat Diplomacy, Knowledge: Geography, Knowledge: Nobility and Royalty Forger Forgery, Knowledge: Nobility and Royalty, Knowledge: Local Healer Heal, Knowledge: Nature, Knowledge: Geography Jewler Appraise, Craft: Jewelry, Knowledge: Geography
Sachiel 04-01-07, 10:15 PM	In the current gaming group I'm a part of, there is a houserule in effect that removes cross-class penalties, and gives everyone four more skill points per level. This has had the adverse effect of causing everyone to enjoy their characters more, since they're actually able to do things more often. It's hasn't stopped people from taking rogue, scout, or spellthief, but it has caused people to take profession, perform, and other skills that are not vital in combat. All in all, I very much like it, fighters no longer feel like they are walking suits of armor with swords, they can actually percieve the world with spot and listen...it's a good change.
Juzzman 04-02-07, 12:01 AM	Be prepared for all your characters to have Max ranks in tumble and use magic device as well as their normal skills:D
Roivas 04-02-07, 03:34 AM	Hangman, I can think of a few easy ways to break this particular house rule. One would be to play an Elan or an elf and simply craft for 50 years until I had enough wealth to get that +4 vorpal longsword I've had my eye on. The second would be to partiently wait until epic levels as a sage again being an elf or other extremely long lived race and using my profession ranks to create epic spells to further my extensive life. Or course neither of these ideas sound as fun as just going out and killing some sentient beings because they have fangs or different skin from me and taking their possessions. So I guess adventure it is.