Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ivellius 03-26-08, 09:40 AM	The title really says it all. I agree that fighters should be able to get more power out of a feat they're taking at higher levels, but I was wondering what people thought would be a balanced number by which to increase the bonus.
runestar 03-26-08, 09:46 AM	Well, when we consider that melee weapon mastery adds +2 to-hit/damage for a single feat, having to spend 2 feats just to get +1 to hit/+2 damage is definitely too weak. Bringing epic weapon focus/spec (+2 to-hit/+4 damage) down to greater weapon focus/spec seems like a good way to start.
jaelis 03-26-08, 10:08 AM	I've never really understood why everyone complains about GWF having the same bonus as WF, but not that investing 18,000 gp to upgrade your +4 sword has the same benefit as investing 2000 gp to upgrade your masterwork sword. They seem like very parallel situations to me. Not that I mind the complaint. Just, why focus on the feats in particular, as opposed to the other scaling effects?
Merestil Haye 03-26-08, 10:28 AM	Because the cost is disproportionately high. GWF requires you to take two of the worst class levels in the game, and gives you +1 to hit with a single weapon when you do. Absolutely pathetic. GWF should give you a benefit comparable to an ability you would get if you took eight levels in another class. Something like Improved Uncanny Dodge, or a 4th level spell with a duration of 1 hour per level. Greater Magic Weapon gives +2 to hit and damage at 8th level, and scales with further increases in level. That seems like a good baseline to compare GWF and related feats.
rjsilverthorn 03-26-08, 10:44 AM	I've never really understood why everyone complains about GWF having the same bonus as WF, but not that investing 18,000 gp to upgrade your +4 sword has the same benefit as investing 2000 gp to upgrade your masterwork sword. They seem like very parallel situations to me. Not that I mind the complaint. Just, why focus on the feats in particular, as opposed to the other scaling effects? Well there is a big difference between gold and feats. Gold is a theoretically limitless resource, if you need more just go kill something. Feats are a finite resource, granted the fighter gets more of them than any other class, but those feats are essentially their class features. I've considered making the fighter feats open to any class, but having the benefit scale based on fighter levels.
Lotus Crane 03-26-08, 11:15 AM	Aren't GWF and GWS prerequisites for Weapon Mastery and/or Weapon Supremacy? Which offer much bigger bonuses, and still stack with the lesser feats? I think that was supposed to be WotC's official band-aid for this entire issue.
Merestil Haye 03-26-08, 12:30 PM	Aren't GWF and GWS prerequisites for Weapon Mastery and/or Weapon Supremacy? Which offer much bigger bonuses, and still stack with the lesser feats? I think that was supposed to be WotC's official band-aid for this entire issue.They are not prereqs for either Melee Weapon Mastery or Ranged Weapon Mastery, and good thing too. They are prereqs for Weapon Supremacy, but since that also requires 18 class levels in Fighter that feat is not worth the effort. Five completely dead levels is too much to ask, even for the neat benefits it provides. It's not comparable to a 9th level spell, and to be worth that cost it should be.
Selgard 03-26-08, 12:43 PM	Perhaps they should, instead of a flat bonus, give some sort of progressive bonus. maybe for WF and WS you get +1/5 bab. (so +4 at 20th) whereas GWF/GWS give 1/3 or 1/2 (or some other such number), or maybe they treat your WF/WS respectively, as being X levels higher. Perhaps instead of bab, it should be per fighter level. Not sure the numbers feel right but the system is general could work. Maybe instead of 1/5, 1/3? or 1/2? 1/2 would give you +10hit/+10damage at 20th level. that seems abit too much.. But if you are spending 4 feats to get them, maybe it's balanced? I dunno.
Howland Reed 03-26-08, 01:17 PM	GWF: gives attack bonus equal to 1/4 your fighter levels (+2 when you initially can take it at Ftr8, maxing at +5 for Ftr20). GWS: gives damage bonus of +2d6. At Ftr16, this goes to 2d8. At Ftr20, this goes to 2d10. This is not precision damage. Both would stack with WF/WS. That's what it would take (for me) to make it worth going to Ftr12 and spending 4 feats. EDIT: If you think this is too much? Look at Dungeon Crasher. That's a feat-equivalent ability that gives you +4d6 at 2nd level, and +8d6 at 6th. Granted, this is a damage bonus to an otherwise non-damaging attack...but I think the comparison between some Ftr2/Ftr6 abilities and these Ftr8/Ftr12 abilities is fairly reasonable.
Howland Reed 03-26-08, 01:29 PM	I've never really understood why everyone complains about GWF having the same bonus as WF, but not that investing 18,000 gp to upgrade your +4 sword has the same benefit as investing 2000 gp to upgrade your masterwork sword. They seem like very parallel situations to me. They're not, for 2 reasons. 1.) Rarely does anyone spend that investment just to get another +1 enhancement bonus...normally, what you're paying for is actually an increase in special abilities (Holy, Speed, etc), which give a better payoff. This is especially true since you can use Greater Magic Weapon to increase your enhancement bonus for free. 2.) While 18K is more than 2K, the proportionate amount of your total resources they represent is pretty much the same (or even less...I don't have my wealth-by-level charts in front of me, but look at stat adders...at low levels, a +2 item is a sizable--but worthwhile--investment. At high levels, even a +6 adder is not really a big dent in your total worth). The amount of feats you have/gain is more limited than the amount of gold you have/gain, and cannot be redistributed as gold can (by buying/selling/trading). Feats SHOULD give better increasing benefits than spending gold.
risner 03-26-08, 01:37 PM	The title really says it all. I agree that fighters should be able to get more power out of a feat they're taking at higher levels, but I was wondering what people thought would be a balanced number by which to increase the bonus. Mathematically, the only two feats in the game better than GWS is Power Attack (on below CR or way above your CR only) and Melee Weapon Mastery (which is GWS+GWF combined again.) In short, you shouldn't do anything to make Greater Weapon Spec better, it is already exceptionally good. Unless you like making abilities better than anything else left in the game?
Nezkrul 03-26-08, 06:27 PM	They are not prereqs for either Melee Weapon Mastery or Ranged Weapon Mastery, and good thing too. They are prereqs for Weapon Supremacy, but since that also requires 18 class levels in Fighter that feat is not worth the effort. Five completely dead levels is too much to ask, even for the neat benefits it provides. It's not comparable to a 9th level spell, and to be worth that cost it should be. It's a feat, not a 9th level spell. Quit yer crying. If you don't like fighter, that's fine, but I'd really wish that you would put IMO in your posts, since you are making it sound as if your opinion is the only one and right one. You can get Weapon Supremacy with 19 levels of Warblade and 1 level of Fighter. And then you'd basically be "on par" with 9th level spells. Unless of course you want to whine and complain more about Warblade being under powered?
navar100 03-26-08, 06:43 PM	They are not prereqs for either Melee Weapon Mastery or Ranged Weapon Mastery, and good thing too. They are prereqs for Weapon Supremacy, but since that also requires 18 class levels in Fighter that feat is not worth the effort. Five completely dead levels is too much to ask, even for the neat benefits it provides. It's not comparable to a 9th level spell, and to be worth that cost it should be. Taking this logic to its preposterous conclusion, since the only thing equal to a 9th level spell is another 9th level spell, everyone should only play spellcasters. Fighters are not the only ones who cannot cast 9th level spells. 9th level spells are not the be all end all of what "everyone" should be doing at 18th level. The Greater Weapon Focus/Specialization feats do not look impressive by themselves. That is a fault of feats in general. Most feats, individually speaking, do not look impressive on their own merit. WOTC overrated the value of a feat. Feats that scale with level would be an improvement that would not break the game into ruin. However, given what we have now, the strength that feats can have is that they stack with other feats. Greater Weapon Focus/Specialization stacking with other feats the Fighter may have will together produce a competent dedicated warrior.
StruckingFuggle 03-26-08, 06:50 PM	GWS: gives damage bonus of +2d6. At Ftr16, this goes to 2d8. At Ftr20, this goes to 2d10. This is not precision damage. +7, +9, and +11 damage, flat, would (probably) be much better, especially with the caveat at the end that it's not precision. (more consistent damage, and multiplied on a critical hit, like the rest of the WS line) You can get Weapon Supremacy with 19 levels of Warblade and 1 level of Fighter. And then you'd basically be "on par" with 9th level spells. ... :confused:
rjsilverthorn 03-26-08, 07:26 PM	I think I almost have a bigger issue with the flavor of Weapon Supremacy than the power. Weapon Supremacy is meant to represent the pinnacle of specializing in a particular weapon, but it grants the same benefits to everyone. I'd have rather had it more like Crushing Strike line, where it granted different benefits based on the type of weapon.
Jaxgaret 03-26-08, 11:15 PM	Greater Weapon Specialization: you deal +X bonus damage, where X is your number of levels in Fighter. That would be nice.
aelryinth 03-26-08, 11:44 PM	It should be a free benefit of Weapon Specialization, granted as you scale up in Fighter levels. That would make it worthwhile. ===Aelryinth
Merestil Haye 03-27-08, 07:38 AM	Taking this logic to its preposterous conclusion, since the only thing equal to a 9th level spell is another 9th level spell, everyone should only play spellcasters.That would be a bit boring, don't you think? I didn't say it needed to be "equal to" a spell; I said it needed to be comparable in power to a spell, because you're making the same sort of investment. That does not in any way imply they are spells. (An aside : I was taught in physics classes to use "equal to" when claiming that two things had exactly the same magnitude and were measured in the same set of units, and "equivalent" when two things had the same magnitude but were measured in different units. So I was careful not to use the words "equal to" because that would be implying that the two things were in the same scale, and I know very well they are not. So please don't say that I did claim that.) Primary spellcasting classes have a clear scaling benefit for investing levels in these classes. As they increase levels, the power of spells available to them increases. I'm arguing that the benefits available to nonspellcasting classes for investing x levels in a specific class should scale up in a way roughly comparable to the way the power of spells scales up as primary spellcasters gain access to new levels of spells. For a proper comparison you really need to compare the non-spellcasting power to an "all-day spell" - by which I mean a spell that has a duration of 1 hour per level or a spell with a duration of 24 hours or more. I didn't mention that earlier, sorry. It makes it a bit difficult to gauge the comparison between the Weapon Supremacy feat and 9th level spells, since off the top of my head I can't think of an all-day spell at that level. I'll need to do some research on that, at least before I introduce it to my game. Going back to GWF, it provides a benefit that is small compared to a Greater Magic Weapon spell cast by an 8th level caster, and requires the character to invest in fighter levels that lose out in power overall compared to levels in some NPC classes (Expert and Adept). Consequently, it's too weak. The same argument applies to GWS, only with more poor Fighter levels required. The way I have dealt with the GWS/GWF problem is to have them provide their benefit scaling with the number of Fighter levels taken (with a cap at Ftr 20), and added the ability to overcome some kind of DR. @ Nezkrul. That you can get the feat a different way does not make the feat comparable to a 9th level spell. It makes your other class features comparable to 9th level spells, but we're not talking about them. Gaining the feat that way would remove the Fighter class level problem (since the dead levels begin at Ftr 5) but does not change the basic comparison between the feat and the scaling yardstick. I'll try and adapt my style a bit since it seems to offend you. However, in return I expect you to stop sneering at and belittling other posters when you don't like what they're saying or the way they're saying it (see "quit yer crying" which offended me a lot). I also did not appreciate what I felt was putting words in my mouth. Deal?
Kratch 03-27-08, 10:02 AM	It's not comparable to a 9th level spell, and to be worth that cost it should be. I don't mean to turn this into another fighter debate, though, due to the fact it is fighter specific feats, I'll be using similar arguments I've used in those debates. I would like to note, I do believe these feats, although accessable to a warblade, are a poor choice for them, not because these are bad feats, but because the warblade does not get enough feats to take these as well as other feats that can make good use of these, and the maneuvers, being in large part, standard actions, actually reduce the effectiveness of the feats (as they then only get used once per turn instead of 4+) Feats (17): - Spiked Chain: EWP, WFocus, WSpec, MWMastery (PHBII), GWFocus, GWSpec, WSupremacy (PHBII) - Driving Attack (PHBII) - Combat Reflexes - Robilar's Gambit (PHBII) - Endurance/Steadfast Determination - Power Attack/Cleave - Mage Slayer (CArcane) - Stand Still (XPH) - Deft Opportunist (CAdven) Class Features: - Overwhelming Attack (PHBII) TACTICAL OPTIONS: 1) Melee Beatdown - Robilar's Gambit, Deft Opportunist, Combat Reflexes, and Overwhelming Attack provide plenty of ability to destroy a melee foe that engages him. - vs. AC 35 (typical at CR 20), he'll hit automatically (WSup) for 4d6+76 damage, and then get an attack that hits 95% of the time for every attack (successful or not) against him (up to 6/round). Not the highest damage output ever, of course, but sufficient to engage and destroy CR 16-20 monsters from the various MMs. 2) Movement Interdiction - Stand Still and a 20' Reach allows him to prevent up to 6 creatures from moving more than 5' per round near the party, since even his normal damage is enough to force a nearly-impossible Reflex save. 3) Ability Interdiction - Mage Slayer and 20' Reach allows him to substantially reduce the tactical options of enemies close to the party. 4) Area Denial - Driving Attack and Overwhelming Attack allow him to remove any enemy creature from the party's vicinity and to prevent it from being able to make a melee attack for at least one full round (knocked prone + 10+ feet out of Reach = 2 Move Actions or a magical Standard Action to re-engage). 5) High-value-target Lockdown - Stand Still prevents the target from walking away; Mage Slayer prevents it from casting away or contributing via spells; Overwhelming Attack makes the first two provide too-high-to-beat DCs; Driving Attack knocks the target prone, preventing even 5' movement per round and preventing most ranged attacks. WHEN THESE ARE USEFUL: 1) Melee Beatdown - Defensive: against melee enemies who are frustrated in their attempts to reach the party by the Fighter's interdiction and try to remove it. - Offensive: against melee enemies who aren't bright enough to concentrate their attacks on the more vulnerable party members (of which the MMs contain a surprising number). 2) Movement Interdiction - Defensive: against melee enemies who attempt to close with any member of the party, especially including those enemies smart enough to not attack the Fighter - Offensive: against enemies trying to flee or reposition, especially including those suffering under Ability Interdiction. 3) Ability Interdiction - Defensive: against enemies with powerful spells or SLA who engage the party closely (these are, again, surprisingly common in the MMs; e.g., the SLA and Summoning abilities many Outsiders have). - Offensive: against enemies with powerful spells or SLA who the Fighter chooses to engage closely, especially including enemy casters. 4) Area Denial - Defensive: against enemies which move to threaten the protected members of the party in non-traditional ways which Movement Interdiction does not function against (e.g., the Teleport ability many Outsiders have), the Fighter can clear those enemies away from the party, regardless of their toughness. - Offensive: against enemies which can be thrown through threatened areas of other party members, against enemies which rely on Full Attacks or Charges to be successful (due to need to stand up), against enemies in dangerous environs (e.g., throw them over a cliff), etc. 5) High-value-target Lockdown - Defensive: keep a powerful melee opponent with inferior Reach prone and out of Reach at the start of each round, preventing it from attacking. Keep a powerful melee opponent prone and out of its Reach at the start of any rounds it ended within 25' (more than the Reach of Gargantuan Tall or Colossal Long monsters), sharply cutting its attack rate. - Offensive: prevent target from using spells or SLA, from getting in melee range of other party members, from casting spells or using SLA, from making multiple ranged attacks, from repositioning, or from escaping. The auto-hit (from WSupremacy), high reactive attack rolls (from Deft Opportunist), and high damage (from Overwhelming Attack) make each effect very likely to succeed. Due to being largely reactive, can be used on enemies within line of sight via Cape of the Mountebank or similar equipment at the start of the encounter. I'd put that on par with the power of 9th level spells. Now, I know your going to say, "but thats everything a fighter gets, thats not just one feat"... But unless your prepared to suggest that fighters are only allowed to use 1 feat at a time, that argument doesn't hold any merit. Fact is, both the casting of a 9th level spell, and the actions of the above fighter, are 1 rounds worth of actions for ether party. Major differences is, the caster can do it only so long as his spells per day hold out, the fighter can only do it so long as his HP's hold out. Hp's are replenishable through other resources, 9th level spells are not. I find it funny how the weapon spec line may not seem like much, but rage is all the rage. In the end, they both constitute a large portion of the relevant classes features (value wise, not quantity wise, unless you wish to suggest trap sense and rage are of equal value) and both offer the same bonus.
NOCTEBRISA 03-27-08, 10:37 AM	Well, In my view point (i'm a fighter in my game). Lvl 20 fighter (str 21 without magic, with magic item + 6 27, with book +6 33) WF + WS + MWM + GWF + GWS + WSup has: +3 to hit (+6 to str.) + 6 to damage (+12 to str.) Yes, it's only with a weapon type... And with your weapon, you can: -Attack in grapple - +5 bonus to second, third or fourth attack !!! - +1 ac etc. If you want to trade +3 to hit (from weapon focus, gwf and mwm) for power attack: + 12 to damage (with a greatsword (2handedweapon)) or + 9 to damage (for 1handed)... +24 to STR! (you make damage like a (in full magic equiped) 57 str monster!. (and i don't talk about +5 bonus to another attack (from Weapon Supremacy)...). Well, I think that 6 feats to +24 STR (for 1 weapon yes, but you can enhance your weapon with money!) are a good trade. (remember that fighter has a lot of feats). Bye
DeathlessJuan 03-27-08, 03:06 PM	What would make the Greater Weapon Focus and Specialization feats worth it? Heheheheh. Getting them for free.
Bloodsoul 03-28-08, 09:54 AM	^ Bah!! I knew I should've answered that when I had the chance! XD Favoured Soul FTW in this regard (though, even for free feats, it could do better, though I s'pose it's good for balance and flavour).
RobbyPants 03-28-08, 10:37 AM	Aren't GWF and GWS prerequisites for Weapon Mastery and/or Weapon Supremacy? Which offer much bigger bonuses, and still stack with the lesser feats? I think that was supposed to be WotC's official band-aid for this entire issue. One other thing that makes the weapon mastery feats blow GWF and GWS out of the water are that their prereqs include WS and a base attack bonus +8, and have no mention of fighter levels. Thus, if you can pick up WS in some other way than four fighter levels, you're golden. Even still, you only have to dip four levels into fighter, and then multiclass into some other class to be able to take the feat later. If you want to make GWF and GWS worth it, you have to make them better than the mastery feats, and/or easier to get.
ciaran 03-29-08, 01:49 AM	What if there was a 3rd WF that brought the total to +4 and +8? Please don't let this Fighter battle go to 10+ pages. Ack.