When exactly are feat benefits gained on leveling up? [Archive] - Wizards Community

When exactly are feat benefits gained on leveling up? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Merestil Haye
04-25-07, 02:51 PM Background : We are reactivating an old campaign. The characters completed a quest to restore balance to the world which was being overrun by demons. The DM is allowing the characters to be rebuilt from the ground up, at 18th level. The characters are to be 3.5'd with new equipment and everything - gifts from the grateful world.

One character, formerly a wizard, is being rebuilt as an Ultimate Magus. The player wants to ensure that when he does so he (a) loses no more than 2 levels of wizard spellcasting, (b) takes two feats that can only be taken at first level, and (c) squeeze in two levels of Beguiler before taking Ultimate Magus at 6th level. (The character is human).

Up until yesterday I'd have said no, but then I reread the section on levelling up (PHB p 58), and the order in which things are presented puts gaining feat benefits before class ability benefits. Now I've always understood that the actions in levelling up technically take place in the order listed.

If that is correct, it would meant that the character has the benefit of his 6th level feat before deciding which class gets its spellcasting level increase. And if that feat were Practiced Spellcaster (Beguiler) he would technically have a higher CL for his Beguiler class and therefore be obliged to increase Wizard spellcasting.

If the class abilities come first (which is what I thought) he'd either have to take only 1 level of Beguiler in his first five character levels, or give up one of the first-level-only feats in order to take Practiced Spellcaster at third level.

So my questions. Is my memory right in telling me that benefits of leveling up are gained in the order listed?
Where is that stated?
Would the Practiced Spellcaster feat effect apply before the character gains spellcasting and other class benefits?I'd appreciate responses with logic underpinned by rules cites.
Nephlite
04-25-07, 02:57 PM Where is that stated?
Would the Practiced Spellcaster feat effect apply before the character gains spellcasting and other class benefits?[/LIST]I'd appreciate responses with logic underpinned by rules cites.

Actually, it doesn't matter.
He can always choose which spellcasting level to increase with Prcs.
You can take Practiced SpellCaster even if can't gain benefit.

But when he does qualify: he gains benefit.

Example: Level 1 Beguiler, Level 4 Wizard already can't qualify for practiced spellcaster.
But if he can take a Prc that +1 spellcasting is his choice (says so in every Prc).

If he chooses Wizard: PS kicks in brining Beguiler to caster 5.
If he chooses Beguiler: PS doesn't.
tarkin
04-25-07, 03:10 PM deleted.
Frugal
04-25-07, 03:11 PM You might gain feat benefits before class benefits but you select your class first. Otherwise you could use your feat gained at 6th level to satisfy a prerequisite for a PrC and then enter that class at the same level.
Puca
04-25-07, 03:41 PM So my questions. Is my memory right in telling me that benefits of leveling up are gained in the order listed?
Where is that stated?
Would the Practiced Spellcaster feat effect apply before the character gains spellcasting and other class benefits?I'd appreciate responses with logic underpinned by rules cites.1) & 2) To my knowledge, it is never explicitly stated that you must follow that order. I think you should; it makes things clear and consistent.

If you dont follow that order, you have either a free-for-all, or you have to come up with your own.

3) If you follow that order as a rule, then he gains the benefits of the feat before he gains the class features. That means he has the Practiced Spellcaster feat, which means his Beguiler caster-level is higher, which means the advancement in casting goes to his wizard levels.
Frugal
04-25-07, 05:20 PM Looks that way to me. I just reread it and see that it does show choosing the class 1st (which is what I was thinking of) but gaining class features is last. So it does look like it's legit to take practised spellcaster and gain that caster level increase first. So he'd be a wizard 3, beguiler 2 at that point I'm guessing? At level 6 he selects the ultimate magus PrC and takes the practised spellcaster feat and applies it to beguiler, puts him at CL 6 for beguiler, his wizard classes advance from the class, looks legit.
DarkRhystar
04-25-07, 05:34 PM Would the Practiced Spellcaster feat effect apply before the character gains spellcasting and other class benefits?

Not really the answer to your question, but the answer to the question that created this question is yes.

Here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11303618&postcount=33)'s an old post that may have some relevance here.
BugHunter
04-25-07, 10:07 PM According to the DMG page 176 "Unlike the basic classes found in the phb, characters must meet requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class."

That means for the ultimate magus, a metamagic feat must be taken before 6th level. Practiced spellcaster is not a metamagic feat.

Most 1st level only feats are regional feats and the PGtoF states "You may have only one regional feat." If there are other 1st level only feats that are not regional feats someone please speak up. If your DM is not using regional feats than he should be allowed to take two 1st level only feats.
Frugal
04-25-07, 10:36 PM According to the DMG page 176 "Unlike the basic classes found in the phb, characters must meet requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class."

That means for the ultimate magus, a metamagic feat must be taken before 6th level. Practiced spellcaster is not a metamagic feat.

Most 1st level only feats are regional feats and the PGtoF states "You may have only one regional feat." If there are other 1st level only feats that are not regional feats someone please speak up. If your DM is not using regional feats than he should be allowed to take two 1st level only feats.

Able learner comes to mind.

And yeah, I was thinking of prerequisites but he meets the prerequisites, the feat selection at 6th level just changes the way ultimate magus gets applied to his caster levels since at some levels it boosts your lowest caster level while at other levels it boosts both.
Merestil Haye
04-26-07, 02:17 PM According to the DMG page 176 "Unlike the basic classes found in the phb, characters must meet requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class."

That means for the ultimate magus, a metamagic feat must be taken before 6th level. Practiced spellcaster is not a metamagic feat.Entry requirements are part of the issue; however the problem arises because we are not ignoring them or the necessity to take them before selecting the class. If we could take feats before choosing classes, Practiced Spellcaster could be taken at 3rd level and the metamagic feat at 6th, removing the whole need to ask the question. The problem arises precisely because the 3rd level feat slot is reserved for a metamagic feat.

He could drop one of the 1st level feats and take a metamagic feat at 1st level, following it with Practiced Spellcaster at 3rd, entering the PrC at Wiz 3 / Beg 2 / UM1; but wants the benefits of two first-level-only feats.

He could take the two feats, a metamagic feat at 3rd level and enter the prestige class as a Wiz 4 / Beg 1 / UM 1. If he does this he'll take Practiced Spellcaster at 6th level, but when the feat applies actually makes no difference to the rebuilt character; but wants the skill points and better skill list.

Either of these allow the character to meet two out of the three aims. The player just wants to make sure, before settling for half a loaf, that he can't have everything. (Well, he can't have everything - the character won't get 9th level spells until 19th level).

Most 1st level only feats are regional feats and the PGtoF states "You may have only one regional feat." If there are other 1st level only feats that are not regional feats someone please speak up. If your DM is not using regional feats than he should be allowed to take two 1st level only feats.Most is not all. Neither of the feats concerned are regional feats (they are both in fact General feats), nor are they Able Learner. Neither are either of them metamagic feats, by the way, or this question would never have come up.
Frugal
04-26-07, 02:35 PM Either of these allow the character to meet two out of the three aims. The player just wants to make sure, before settling for half a loaf, that he can't have everything. (Well, he can't have everything - the character won't get 9th level spells until 19th level).

As far as I can tell, it's a legit build, he meets the requirements to enter to class at 6th level, he selects his feat before he gets the benefits of the class features, so he can take practised spellcaster at 6th level and make his wizard caster level his lower caster level.
StevenO
04-26-07, 08:00 PM Question summary: I have a human Beguiler2/Wizard3 who plans to take UM next level. My three current feats are spoken for. If I take Practice Spellcaster (Beguiler) at 6th level can I apply the level 1 UM caster boost to Wizard?

Unfortunately, I believe the answer is NO although I would like to say otherwise. When leveling you get choose your class first and get all the "fixed" items at that time. After that it seems you may choose either feats or skills first. The problem is that when first taken the UM's spell boost goes into your lowest CL casting type which is Beguiler and then gets locked in before you can take PS to increase the CL.
Frugal
04-26-07, 08:26 PM Question summary: I have a human Beguiler2/Wizard3 who plans to take UM next level. My three current feats are spoken for. If I take Practice Spellcaster (Beguiler) at 6th level can I apply the level 1 UM caster boost to Wizard?

Unfortunately, I believe the answer is NO although I would like to say otherwise. When leveling you get choose your class first and get all the "fixed" items at that time. After that it seems you may choose either feats or skills first. The problem is that when first taken the UM's spell boost goes into your lowest CL casting type which is Beguiler and then gets locked in before you can take PS to increase the CL.

According to pp. 58-59 of the PHB, the answer is yes, it states the order is:

Choose class
Base attack bonus
Base save bonuses
Ability score
Hit points
Skill points
Feats
Spells
Class features

Now we can debate whether the UM boost is a class feature or falls under spells but it's a moot point because it comes after feat selection either way according to the PHB.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Merestil Haye 04-25-07, 02:51 PM	Background : We are reactivating an old campaign. The characters completed a quest to restore balance to the world which was being overrun by demons. The DM is allowing the characters to be rebuilt from the ground up, at 18th level. The characters are to be 3.5'd with new equipment and everything - gifts from the grateful world. One character, formerly a wizard, is being rebuilt as an Ultimate Magus. The player wants to ensure that when he does so he (a) loses no more than 2 levels of wizard spellcasting, (b) takes two feats that can only be taken at first level, and (c) squeeze in two levels of Beguiler before taking Ultimate Magus at 6th level. (The character is human). Up until yesterday I'd have said no, but then I reread the section on levelling up (PHB p 58), and the order in which things are presented puts gaining feat benefits before class ability benefits. Now I've always understood that the actions in levelling up technically take place in the order listed. If that is correct, it would meant that the character has the benefit of his 6th level feat before deciding which class gets its spellcasting level increase. And if that feat were Practiced Spellcaster (Beguiler) he would technically have a higher CL for his Beguiler class and therefore be obliged to increase Wizard spellcasting. If the class abilities come first (which is what I thought) he'd either have to take only 1 level of Beguiler in his first five character levels, or give up one of the first-level-only feats in order to take Practiced Spellcaster at third level. So my questions. Is my memory right in telling me that benefits of leveling up are gained in the order listed? Where is that stated? Would the Practiced Spellcaster feat effect apply before the character gains spellcasting and other class benefits?I'd appreciate responses with logic underpinned by rules cites.
Nephlite 04-25-07, 02:57 PM	Where is that stated? Would the Practiced Spellcaster feat effect apply before the character gains spellcasting and other class benefits?[/LIST]I'd appreciate responses with logic underpinned by rules cites. Actually, it doesn't matter. He can always choose which spellcasting level to increase with Prcs. You can take Practiced SpellCaster even if can't gain benefit. But when he does qualify: he gains benefit. Example: Level 1 Beguiler, Level 4 Wizard already can't qualify for practiced spellcaster. But if he can take a Prc that +1 spellcasting is his choice (says so in every Prc). If he chooses Wizard: PS kicks in brining Beguiler to caster 5. If he chooses Beguiler: PS doesn't.
tarkin 04-25-07, 03:10 PM	deleted.
Frugal 04-25-07, 03:11 PM	You might gain feat benefits before class benefits but you select your class first. Otherwise you could use your feat gained at 6th level to satisfy a prerequisite for a PrC and then enter that class at the same level.
Puca 04-25-07, 03:41 PM	So my questions. Is my memory right in telling me that benefits of leveling up are gained in the order listed? Where is that stated? Would the Practiced Spellcaster feat effect apply before the character gains spellcasting and other class benefits?I'd appreciate responses with logic underpinned by rules cites.1) & 2) To my knowledge, it is never explicitly stated that you must follow that order. I think you should; it makes things clear and consistent. If you dont follow that order, you have either a free-for-all, or you have to come up with your own. 3) If you follow that order as a rule, then he gains the benefits of the feat before he gains the class features. That means he has the Practiced Spellcaster feat, which means his Beguiler caster-level is higher, which means the advancement in casting goes to his wizard levels.
Frugal 04-25-07, 05:20 PM	Looks that way to me. I just reread it and see that it does show choosing the class 1st (which is what I was thinking of) but gaining class features is last. So it does look like it's legit to take practised spellcaster and gain that caster level increase first. So he'd be a wizard 3, beguiler 2 at that point I'm guessing? At level 6 he selects the ultimate magus PrC and takes the practised spellcaster feat and applies it to beguiler, puts him at CL 6 for beguiler, his wizard classes advance from the class, looks legit.
DarkRhystar 04-25-07, 05:34 PM	Would the Practiced Spellcaster feat effect apply before the character gains spellcasting and other class benefits? Not really the answer to your question, but the answer to the question that created this question is yes. Here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11303618&postcount=33)'s an old post that may have some relevance here.
BugHunter 04-25-07, 10:07 PM	According to the DMG page 176 "Unlike the basic classes found in the phb, characters must meet requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class." That means for the ultimate magus, a metamagic feat must be taken before 6th level. Practiced spellcaster is not a metamagic feat. Most 1st level only feats are regional feats and the PGtoF states "You may have only one regional feat." If there are other 1st level only feats that are not regional feats someone please speak up. If your DM is not using regional feats than he should be allowed to take two 1st level only feats.
Frugal 04-25-07, 10:36 PM	According to the DMG page 176 "Unlike the basic classes found in the phb, characters must meet requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class." That means for the ultimate magus, a metamagic feat must be taken before 6th level. Practiced spellcaster is not a metamagic feat. Most 1st level only feats are regional feats and the PGtoF states "You may have only one regional feat." If there are other 1st level only feats that are not regional feats someone please speak up. If your DM is not using regional feats than he should be allowed to take two 1st level only feats. Able learner comes to mind. And yeah, I was thinking of prerequisites but he meets the prerequisites, the feat selection at 6th level just changes the way ultimate magus gets applied to his caster levels since at some levels it boosts your lowest caster level while at other levels it boosts both.
Merestil Haye 04-26-07, 02:17 PM	According to the DMG page 176 "Unlike the basic classes found in the phb, characters must meet requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class." That means for the ultimate magus, a metamagic feat must be taken before 6th level. Practiced spellcaster is not a metamagic feat.Entry requirements are part of the issue; however the problem arises because we are not ignoring them or the necessity to take them before selecting the class. If we could take feats before choosing classes, Practiced Spellcaster could be taken at 3rd level and the metamagic feat at 6th, removing the whole need to ask the question. The problem arises precisely because the 3rd level feat slot is reserved for a metamagic feat. He could drop one of the 1st level feats and take a metamagic feat at 1st level, following it with Practiced Spellcaster at 3rd, entering the PrC at Wiz 3 / Beg 2 / UM1; but wants the benefits of two first-level-only feats. He could take the two feats, a metamagic feat at 3rd level and enter the prestige class as a Wiz 4 / Beg 1 / UM 1. If he does this he'll take Practiced Spellcaster at 6th level, but when the feat applies actually makes no difference to the rebuilt character; but wants the skill points and better skill list. Either of these allow the character to meet two out of the three aims. The player just wants to make sure, before settling for half a loaf, that he can't have everything. (Well, he can't have everything - the character won't get 9th level spells until 19th level). Most 1st level only feats are regional feats and the PGtoF states "You may have only one regional feat." If there are other 1st level only feats that are not regional feats someone please speak up. If your DM is not using regional feats than he should be allowed to take two 1st level only feats.Most is not all. Neither of the feats concerned are regional feats (they are both in fact General feats), nor are they Able Learner. Neither are either of them metamagic feats, by the way, or this question would never have come up.
Frugal 04-26-07, 02:35 PM	Either of these allow the character to meet two out of the three aims. The player just wants to make sure, before settling for half a loaf, that he can't have everything. (Well, he can't have everything - the character won't get 9th level spells until 19th level). As far as I can tell, it's a legit build, he meets the requirements to enter to class at 6th level, he selects his feat before he gets the benefits of the class features, so he can take practised spellcaster at 6th level and make his wizard caster level his lower caster level.
StevenO 04-26-07, 08:00 PM	Question summary: I have a human Beguiler2/Wizard3 who plans to take UM next level. My three current feats are spoken for. If I take Practice Spellcaster (Beguiler) at 6th level can I apply the level 1 UM caster boost to Wizard? Unfortunately, I believe the answer is NO although I would like to say otherwise. When leveling you get choose your class first and get all the "fixed" items at that time. After that it seems you may choose either feats or skills first. The problem is that when first taken the UM's spell boost goes into your lowest CL casting type which is Beguiler and then gets locked in before you can take PS to increase the CL.
Frugal 04-26-07, 08:26 PM	Question summary: I have a human Beguiler2/Wizard3 who plans to take UM next level. My three current feats are spoken for. If I take Practice Spellcaster (Beguiler) at 6th level can I apply the level 1 UM caster boost to Wizard? Unfortunately, I believe the answer is NO although I would like to say otherwise. When leveling you get choose your class first and get all the "fixed" items at that time. After that it seems you may choose either feats or skills first. The problem is that when first taken the UM's spell boost goes into your lowest CL casting type which is Beguiler and then gets locked in before you can take PS to increase the CL. According to pp. 58-59 of the PHB, the answer is yes, it states the order is: Choose class Base attack bonus Base save bonuses Ability score Hit points Skill points Feats Spells Class features Now we can debate whether the UM boost is a class feature or falls under spells but it's a moot point because it comes after feat selection either way according to the PHB.