Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kaladon7779 07-19-07, 09:09 AM	Ok I've got a question for you all. There's a prestige class called "Weapon Master" that I'm looking at. requirements are BaB +5 Weapon Focus Combat expertise Dodge Mobility Spring Attack Whirlwind My question is, how do you get Whirlwind by by 5th level so I can put my 6th level worth of experience into the new prestige class. If I go solid Fighter I can have it by 7th level, but I can't figure out how by 6th level.
jaelis 07-19-07, 09:15 AM	Multiclassing would work. Take three levels of barbarian, choosing dodge and mobility as feats. Then take two levels of fighter, choosing spring attack and whirlwhind. That still leaves you a feat short for the class though, even if you're a human. You could take a flaw to cover it.
Kaladon7779 07-19-07, 09:46 AM	I don't think it would work The problem is getting whirlwind at 4th or 5th level, but with your idea, even if you were human Flaw - Combat Expertise Human Bonus = Weapon Focus 3 levels of barbarian, Dodge, Mobility 1st level of Fighter, giving you 4th level character Spring Attack, 2nd Level of Fither, giving you 5th level character Whirl Wind Attack. So with Flaws is the only way it can be done then, but I'm looking actually without flaws.
Platstud 07-19-07, 09:57 AM	A fighter can get all the pre-reqs by level 6 and take the class at level 7. Unless you can find a race that gets two of these feats as a bonus(with LA 0), or another class that gains a bonus feat at first level, I don't think it's possible.
bobothechimp 07-19-07, 09:59 AM	Nevermind that. Favored soul is 3/4 BAB. Trying again
Platstud 07-19-07, 10:02 AM	Human bonus = Weapon Focus 1st level = Combat Expertise Fighter 1 = Dodge Fighter 2 = Mobility 3rd level = Spring Attack Fighter 4 = Whirlwind Attack If it were that simple, don't you think one of us would have figured it out? Spring Attack requires a +4 BAB.
Steely_Dan 07-19-07, 10:06 AM	WHIRLWIND ATTACK You can strike nearby opponents in an amazing, spinning melee attack. Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Intelligence 13, Melee Defense, base attack bonus +4 Benefit: As a full-round action, you can make an area attack with your melee weapon, striking every opponent within your reach. This whirlwind attack uses the area attack rules; you make one attack roll and apply the result to every target in range. Area Attacks: Certain weapons and effects, such as grenades, autofire weapons, or the Force slam power, target all creatures in a given area instead of a single target. When you make an area attack, you make a single attack roll and compare the result to the Ref Defence of every target in the area. Creatures you hit take full damage, and creatures you miss take half damage.
bobothechimp 07-19-07, 10:08 AM	If it were that simple, don't you think one of us would have figured it out? Spring Attack requires a +4 BAB. You're late. I already realized that then changed it, then realized another problem in my new build and got rid of it again.
runestar 07-19-07, 10:10 AM	Only way I can think of is psychic reformation power from ELH.
Steely_Dan 07-19-07, 10:13 AM	Only way I can think of is psychic reformation power from ELH. Do you mean the XPH?
bobothechimp 07-19-07, 10:15 AM	You could do the simple build of: Human bonus = Weapon Focus 1st level = Combat Expertise Fighter 1 = Dodge Fighter 2 = Mobility 3rd level = Spring Attack Fighter 4 = Whirlwind Attack If you hang around a 10th level Warforged Warchanter constantly singing Inspire Legion from 3rd to 4th level.
WackyOne 07-19-07, 10:36 AM	With psionics, everything is easier: Fighter 4/ Psychic Warrior 1 4 feats before getting Bab=4, 2 after (Spring Attack and Whirlwind).
zelf_gale 07-19-07, 10:37 AM	Is there a reason you are trying to get into a prestige class by 6th level? Most prestige classes are designed to require 7th level or more.
Platstud 07-19-07, 10:39 AM	Is there a reason you are trying to get into a prestige class by 6th level? Most prestige classes are designed to require 7th level or more. That's not true at all. The majority of PrCs can be started by level 6.
jaelis 07-19-07, 10:44 AM	WHIRLWIND ATTACK You can strike nearby opponents in an amazing, spinning melee attack. Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Intelligence 13, Melee Defense, base attack bonus +4 Benefit: As a full-round action, you can make an area attack with your melee weapon, stiking every opponent within your reach. This whirlwind attack uses the area attack rules; you make one attack roll and apply the result to every target in range. Area Attacks: Certain weapons and effects, such as grenades, autofire weapons, or the Force slam power, target all creatures in a given area instead of a single target. When you make an area attack, you make a single attack roll and compare the result to the Ref Defence of every target in the area. Creatures you hit take full damage, and creatures you miss take half damage. So... that's the 3.0 version, I guess?
Steely_Dan 07-19-07, 10:54 AM	So... that's the 3.0 version, I guess? Saga.
TorgSmackie 07-19-07, 10:56 AM	WHIRLWIND ATTACK Benefit: As a full-round action, you can make an area attack with your melee weapon, stiking every opponent within your reach. This whirlwind attack uses the area attack rules; you make one attack roll and apply the result to every target in range. Why would you do that?
Steely_Dan 07-19-07, 11:04 AM	Why would you do that? Do what?
bobothechimp 07-19-07, 11:08 AM	With psionics, everything is easier: Fighter 4/ Psychic Warrior 1 4 feats before getting Bab=4, 2 after (Spring Attack and Whirlwind). That is only +4 BAB.
tarkin 07-19-07, 11:35 AM	You need: 6 feats, A BAB of 5 in 5 levels one feat at 1st level one feat at 3rd level Fighter two levels = 2 extra feats. Human = 1 extra feat So basically you have 5 feats and a BAB of 2. You need a class that can give you a single extra feat, from that list, without losing any BAB, in no more than 3 levels. Suggestions: 1. Ranger, using a wierd Combat Style that grants one of those feats - you have to write this up, I could not find it. 2. Try gaining one of those feats using a magic item. Then, ASAP when you get your next feat take that feat and sell the magic item.
Egres 07-19-07, 12:12 PM	If you are playing 3.0, play a human and take 3 levels in Ftr, and 2 levels in Samurai, from OA.
Platstud 07-19-07, 12:45 PM	2. Try gaining one of those feats using a magic item. Then, ASAP when you get your next feat take that feat and sell the magic item. While this may work by RAW, I know my DM wouldn't allow it and I expect many others wouldn't either.
Someone 07-19-07, 12:55 PM	Just take the 6th level of fighter. It'll get you +1 to all of your saves, and you don't have to be human to get all of the feats. I just don't see why its so critical that you qualify for the PrC by level 5. Its not like waiting one more level is so bad.
Ace_of_time 07-19-07, 01:40 PM	1st Weapon focus human bonus Combat exp Fighter bonus dodge 2nd fighter bonus mobilty 3rd any feat 4th fighter bonus spring attack 5th psychic warrior bonus whirlwind attack That will give you the feats but not the BaB. Is there another class that gives a BaB and fighter bonus feat at first level?
tarkin 07-19-07, 04:29 PM	The BAB is the only problem. Even just pure fighter + human gives you the 6 feats you need (1 human, 1 at 1st, 1 at 3rd, fighter 1,2,4) The problem is you get your last two feats at 3rd and 4th level, and Spring Attack (and thus whirlwind) requires that you already have a BAB of +4. So while he can get enough feats, he can't get them at the right time. He needs a race/class that in four levels gives him one of the necceesary feats without lowering the BAB. Then he can take Fighter as his last two levels and use them to qualify for Spring Attack and Whirlwind.
Morwen 07-19-07, 08:45 PM	There are no regular classes that match the requirements (full-bab and provide a bonus feat from the list in the first 3 levels). I checked them all. If there's a prestige class somewhere that can be entered at 5th level, has a full bab, and provides one of the feats as a bonus feat, that's the only option :) Or a +0 LA race or template that gives you one of the feats as a bonus feat. Not an impossibility, either.
sirjimbob 07-19-07, 10:06 PM	Okay I still think you can as straigth fighter. Is there any rule that says that yo have to spend the feat when you get it. So delay taking you 3rd lvl feat unill 4th. I think it works like skill pionts you don't lose what you don't use.
starfire311 07-19-07, 10:12 PM	are there any alternate class features out that that would give the war domain granted power... maybe some kind of alternate pally class feature. that would solve the problem.
starfire311 07-19-07, 10:15 PM	Okay I still think you can as straigth fighter. Is there any rule that says that yo have to spend the feat when you get it. So delay taking you 3rd lvl feat unill 4th. I think it works like skill pionts you don't lose what you don't use. yes there is a rule... it says you get that feat at that level, not at that level or later when you so choose.
Jungingen 07-19-07, 10:32 PM	Just take 6th level of Fighter. It's the best level of Fighter evar. +1 BAB, +1 all saves, bonus feat, and it's not 12th or 18th. Best evar.
Nathreet 07-19-07, 10:44 PM	Spring attack requires BAB 4! Whirlwind attack requires spring attack! human: dodge level 1: any full BAB class; mobility level 2: any full BAB class level 3: any full BAB class; weapon focus level 4: fighter 1; spring attack level 5: fighter 2; whirlwind attack Still missing combat expertise. This is just an example. Somehow he needs spring attack at level 4, and whirlwind attack at level 4-5. Psychic warrior is not a full BAB class, so it doesn't work.
jago668 07-19-07, 11:04 PM	Would Samurai (OA) 2/ Ranger 1/ Fighter 2 work? That is a full BAB for all classes so you get the +5 BAB requirement. Then be a human, or non-human with a flaw. 1 - Samurai - Weapon Focus, Combat Expertise 2 - Samurai - Dodge 3 - Ranger - Mobility 4 - Fighter - Spring Attack 5 - Fighter - Whirlwind Gives you Fort +8, Ref +2, Will +3. Along with a masterwork katana and wakizashi which can be upgraded, a favored enemy, track, and wild empathy. The ranger only drops you to d8 for one level and is easier to justify than paladin. EDIT: For third level any full BAB class would work. So Hexblade, Swashbuckler, Crusader, or Warblade would all work as well. I just went with Ranger because my PHB was easier to dig out and it gives two good saves and track never hurt.
Nathreet 07-19-07, 11:38 PM	^ Good job. I tried but I couldn't find anything. I don't have the books. I checked the feat pre-reqs when I last posted. You're kosher there. Samurais are allowed to multi-class, right?
jago668 07-19-07, 11:54 PM	Yup they can multi-class just fine. Also their ancestral daisho enhancement is done by your total class levels, not just Samurai levels. So one less thing to worry about if you decide to use them.
Morwen 07-20-07, 12:38 AM	Unfortunately, you also need Combat Reflexes to take the Weapon Master prestige class (which is the reason the OP wanted to get Whirlwind Attack by 5th level). So we're still one feat short (unless flaws are used).
rkun 07-20-07, 12:49 AM	if you can use the samurai class from L5R rokugan OA d20 it gives you a bonus feat at 1st-2nd and has a full BAB. and then being human gives another feat LvL BAB Feat 1 +1 dodge, mobility, weapon focus 2 +2 combat expertise 3 +3 random feat 4 +4 whirlwind attack 5 +5 spring attack this way you dont have to be human if you dont want to. thats only is you can use the rokugan book though.
PhaedrusXY 07-20-07, 12:52 AM	The Rokugan Ninja also gives Dodge at 1st level, and has full BAB. You really do have to use flaws or weird classes to do this. It is an old problem. ;)
jago668 07-20-07, 01:57 AM	Just working with what the OP asked for, whirlwind by 5th. He didn't ask for Combat Relfexes so I didn't build accordingly. If your GM is really nice maybe he'll let you retrain the bonus feat from Ranger (track) into Combat Reflexes. Sorry none of the books I own have any class that gives a 1 dip bonus feat that you need. EDIT: Sprelling > me
NobodyRemembersThis 07-20-07, 02:19 AM	Okay I still think you can as straigth fighter. Is there any rule that says that yo have to spend the feat when you get it. So delay taking you 3rd lvl feat unill 4th. I think it works like skill pionts you don't lose what you don't use.PHB II retraining rules. See if your DM will let you use them. Then, take a "dump feat" at level 3. Hit level 4, take Mobility. Spend the time, retrain and lose the "dump" feat and take Whirlwind. Take level 5 in fighter. Take level 6 in weaponmaster.
Egres 07-20-07, 06:52 AM	Would Samurai (OA) 2/ Ranger 1/ Fighter 2 work? That is a full BAB for all classes so you get the +5 BAB requirement. Then be a human, or non-human with a flaw. 1 - Samurai - Weapon Focus, Combat Expertise 2 - Samurai - Dodge 3 - Ranger - Mobility 4 - Fighter - Spring Attack 5 - Fighter - Whirlwind As I wrote before, OA Samurai and Ftr are enough. Take 3 levels in Samurai, and then go Ftr.
Mosyali 07-20-07, 07:59 AM	I am not sure if you guys realize this, but the PHB2 retraining rules and the XPH power reformation power thingy both require that the thing you are altering be legal for the level you altered. Meaning, if you are altering your "level 3" feat, and you did not qualify to take that feat at level 3, then you still do not qualify for that feat at level 3. You do not use the current character, but instead what your character was then.
tarkin 07-20-07, 09:37 AM	Mosyali is correct. There are a lot of ways to ALMOST get this thing. But so far NO ONE has gotten it. His requirement is: 1. NO FLAWS. His DM has dissallowed them. 2. Each of 5 level being +1 BAB 3. four feats in the first 3 4. last 2 levels two more feat OR find some way to get either Spring Attack or Whirlwind without meeting the pre-reqs. Pure human fighter gets you the right number of feats, but not the right timing - you only get one feat after you obtain BAB +4. He needs a class besides Fighter that gives you a single extra feat on the list he has.
NobodyRemembersThis 07-20-07, 09:46 AM	I am not sure if you guys realize this, but the PHB2 retraining rules and the XPH power reformation power thingy both require that the thing you are altering be legal for the level you altered. Meaning, if you are altering your "level 3" feat, and you did not qualify to take that feat at level 3, then you still do not qualify for that feat at level 3. You do not use the current character, but instead what your character was then.True for the Retraining, false for power reformation - Runestar has the relevant information in another thread, I'll see If I have a link.
Mosyali 07-20-07, 10:37 AM	Unless the SRD is wrong, than no, Psychic Reformation does not allow the type of retraining that enables you to chose a feat you did not qualify for at the level you are swapping the feat at. Psychic Reformation... ...When this power is manifested, the subject can choose to spend its most recently gained skill points differently (picking new skills and abandoning old ones if it chooses) and to choose a different feat from the one it selected when advancing from its previous level to its current level. The subject can also choose to forget powers it acquired when advancing to its current level, replacing them with new ones. The subject can undo decisions of these sorts that were made at lower levels, if both the subject and the manifester agree to pay the necessary XP before this power is manifested (see below). The subject must abide by the standard rules for selecting skills and feats, and so it cannot take feats for which it doesn’t qualify or take crossclass skills as class skills. XP Cost: This power costs 50 XP to manifest to reformat choices made when the character reached her current level. For each additional previous level into which the revision reaches, the power costs an additional 50 XP. The manifester and subject split all XP costs evenly. It clearly states that you must qualify for the feat at the slot you are trading. Meaning, as I stated, that the third level feat granted to everyone cannot be traded for a feat that requires BAB +4 ever.
runestar 07-20-07, 10:48 AM	Actually, the way I read psychic reformation, you merely need to meet the requirements at the moment when the power is manifested on you. For example, a 21st lv wizard who took toughness at 1st lv can use psychic reformation to swap out toughness for an epic feat which he qualifies. You don't have to go back in time to when you were a 1st lv wizard and adjust your requisites accordingly. This is because you are now a lv21 wizard, and no longer the 1st lv wizard you were when you first took said feat. You are still abiding by the standard rules, in that you must still meet the feat's prereqs, but you use your current stats to determine those prereqs. Another method would be casting embrace the dark chaos, followed by shun the dark chaos spells from fiendish codex 1. The good thing is that you can swap out any feats with them, such as the bonus weapon proficiency feats being an elf grants. Human bonus feat? Hah! I take elf and raise you 5 bonus feats...:D
Keenath 07-20-07, 11:11 AM	This is maybe neither here nor there, but in my game we've shifted Whirlwind so that it requires Great Cleave instead of Whirlwind Attack. Of course, we also disallow cleaving off of whirlwind strikes -- a whirlwind is sort of like cleaving without having to actually drop the enemies.
AlterFrom 07-20-07, 11:25 AM	Bah, posted before thinking...
tui 07-20-07, 11:30 AM	This is maybe neither here nor there, but in my game we've shifted Whirlwind so that it requires Great Cleave instead of Whirlwind Attack. I assume that's a typo and meant Spring Attack. Great Cleave does make a lot more sense to me.. and really more people take Spring Attack than Great Cleave in my experiences, so it seems like a perfectly balanced trade.
Platstud 07-20-07, 12:57 PM	Just take 6th level of Fighter. It's the best level of Fighter evar. +1 BAB, +1 all saves, bonus feat, and it's not 12th or 18th. Best evar. Well, I think 4 is probably better, personally. Weapon Specialization.
bfiggins 07-20-07, 02:32 PM	Mosyali is correct. There are a lot of ways to ALMOST get this thing. But so far NO ONE has gotten it. His requirement is: 1. NO FLAWS. His DM has dissallowed them. 2. Each of 5 level being +1 BAB 3. four feats in the first 3 4. last 2 levels two more feat OR find some way to get either Spring Attack or Whirlwind without meeting the pre-reqs. Pure human fighter gets you the right number of feats, but not the right timing - you only get one feat after you obtain BAB +4. He needs a class besides Fighter that gives you a single extra feat on the list he has. I got it! Grab Magic of Incarnum. You need Con 13, Int 13, and Dex 13. Azurin - Combat Expertise Starting - Weapon Focus L1 - Soulborn 1 L2 - Soulborn 2 L3 - Soulborn 3 - Midnight Dodge (counts as Dodge), Mobility L4 - Fighter 1 - Spring Attack L5 - Fighter 2 - Whirlwind Attack
JLaurHughes 07-20-07, 03:19 PM	I got it! Grab Magic of Incarnum. You need Con 13, Int 13, and Dex 13. Azurin - Combat Expertise Starting - Weapon Focus L1 - Soulborn 1 L2 - Soulborn 2 L3 - Soulborn 3 - Midnight Dodge (counts as Dodge), Mobility L4 - Fighter 1 - Spring Attack L5 - Fighter 2 - Whirlwind Attack This will only work if the OP is allowed to use source material mentioned and a DM will probably want to look at the source before allowing it(the DM's I've played with only allow it if they can read the material first). Saves would end up Fort +6, Ref +1, Will +1, BaB +5. BtW which book is the weapons master that the OP mentioned from? This would also work with human as the race too mostly because there is no major difference between the Azurin and Human as a race.
bfiggins 07-20-07, 03:31 PM	This will only work if the OP is allowed to use source material mentioned and a DM will probably want to look at the source before allowing it(the DM's I've played with only allow it if they can read the material first). Saves would end up Fort +6, Ref +1, Will +1, BaB +5. BtW which book is the weapons master that the OP mentioned from? This would also work with human as the race too mostly because there is no major difference between the Azurin and Human as a race. Well, if all we're using is the PHB, then no, it can't be done. So we've got to assume some leeway there. The race question is really just whether he wants a +2 dodge bonus from Dodge, or 1 extra skill point per level.
J_Vhad 07-20-07, 03:40 PM	Well technically you could take an Intermediate Fire Elemental Bloodline which would look like: 1st -- Dodge 1st Fighter -- Mobility 2nd Fighter -- Weapon Focus: 3rd --- Combat Expertise 4th -- Spring Attack 4th Bloodline -- Whirlwind Attack 5th -- N/A 6th -- Welcome to Weapon Master Now the problem with this is that you have to give up levels for the bloodline. For intermediate this is supposed to be one by 6th and another by 12th. If you don't give up the level, then you don't gain any more bonuses AND take 20% experience reduction, so it's not a good deal, but possible. If you need combat reflexes too, then you'd need to be human.
Ogreman 07-20-07, 05:21 PM	Someone and Jungingen have the right of it. Fighter 6 ftw.
Morwen 07-21-07, 01:23 AM	If you need combat reflexes too, then you'd need to be human. You do need Combat Reflexes too. That's what the Prereqs in my copy of Sword and Fist say, anyway :)
Egres 07-21-07, 03:34 AM	Mosyali is correct. There are a lot of ways to ALMOST get this thing. But so far NO ONE has gotten it. His requirement is: 1. NO FLAWS. His DM has dissallowed them. 2. Each of 5 level being +1 BAB 3. four feats in the first 3 4. last 2 levels two more feat OR find some way to get either Spring Attack or Whirlwind without meeting the pre-reqs. Pure human fighter gets you the right number of feats, but not the right timing - you only get one feat after you obtain BAB +4. He needs a class besides Fighter that gives you a single extra feat on the list he has. tarkin, I wonder if I'm on your ignore list. Check my previous post: Take 3 levels in OA Samurai, and then go Ftr.