Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GodGoblin 03-08-08, 05:49 PM	I am currently running a campaign and one of my players is doing a combat based rogue who uses bluff in combat to negate dex AC and get the sneak attack. but after reading the complete scoundrel we found a skill trick called 'group fake out' this means that he can bluff every one that stands in his ajacent squares. now the question is could this be combined with sneak attack? I was reading a post on here that says you can sneak attack on every attack aslong as you are flanking or they get no dex bonus to their AC. but can you combine skill tricks and feats? or is there any other reason why it cant be done? As far as I an see it should be ok. Any help would be great, Thanks in advance!
Ecalsneerg 03-08-08, 06:06 PM	There is no reason why it can't be done that I know of. However, UMDing a wand or scroll of Greater invisibility is probably a lot easier, as you take a -2 penalty fo each opponent beyond the first.
mplindustries 03-08-08, 06:16 PM	Short Answer: Yes Long Answer: Sneak attack applies to any attack that meets the criteria, no matter the source of the attack. Skill tricks take the same action as using the skill, unless they specifically state otherwise. Of course the whole thing only works once per encounter unless you find a way to re-use skill tricks.
Spikes01k 03-09-08, 10:45 AM	Short Answer: Yes Long Answer: Sneak attack applies to any attack that meets the criteria, no matter the source of the attack. Skill tricks take the same action as using the skill, unless they specifically state otherwise. Of course the whole thing only works once per encounter unless you find a way to re-use skill tricks. Last I checked, it can't be Done!
Fenrir_Greyback 03-09-08, 12:08 PM	If he succeeds on his bluff check to fake out all adjacent squares, then he gets SA on all adjacent squares (Assuming he's got whirlwind attack) He then runs away after dealing massive damage (Spring attack) I love doing this with rogues. Specially when I give them a level of fighter first, then i send them in with a flaming brilliant energy greatsword. It was awesome... I think I killed everything within reach. Oh, there was also a time I had levels in avenging executioner, and was using a spiked chain. I killed everything around me, then proceeded to kill everything within ten feet. It was massive carnage.
GodGoblin 03-09-08, 03:00 PM	I love doing this with rogues. Specially when I give them a level of fighter first, then i send them in with a flaming brilliant energy greatsword. It was awesome... I think I killed everything within reach. Oh, there was also a time I had levels in avenging executioner, and was using a spiked chain. I killed everything around me, then proceeded to kill everything within ten feet. It was massive carnage. Nice.
jaelis 03-09-08, 03:12 PM	If he succeeds on his bluff check to fake out all adjacent squares, then he gets SA on all adjacent squares (Assuming he's got whirlwind attack) He then runs away after dealing massive damage (Spring attack) Can't combine WWA and Spring Attack... WWA is a full-round action.
Mr_Teapot 03-09-08, 05:16 PM	Can't combine WWA and Spring Attack... WWA is a full-round action. Isn't that also going to be a problem combining bluffing and WWA? Feinting in combat is a move action, so it can't in the same turn as the WWA. The feint carries over to the next turn, but there wouldn't be anything stopping all your opponents from scattering on their turn in between. (Unless there's something to the skill trick, as I'm unfamiliar with it. Or if you got a way to feint as a swift/free/immediate action, or got an extra move action somehow.) But IMO feinting is a horrible way to accomplish anything. You want some other way of getting sneak attack that doesn't require your move action (thus limiting you to one attack). WWA might actually be decent on a rogue, now that I think about it, as they can actually use the Spring Attack, Dodge and Combat Expertise prereqs and if you can start combat adjacent to some others you could dish out the damage. I still think Two Weapon Fighting would be a better feat (WWA is only superior when adjacent to three or more opponents, and decidedly less useful against a lone opponent).
runestar 03-09-08, 11:15 PM	Another way is if you can mass-blind the enemies or something (say with glitterdust?).
groveborn 03-10-08, 12:12 AM	Greater Invisibility, other such effects.
Spikes01k 03-10-08, 11:59 AM	Isn't that also going to be a problem combining bluffing and WWA? Feinting in combat is a move action, so it can't in the same turn as the WWA. The feint carries over to the next turn, but there wouldn't be anything stopping all your opponents from scattering on their turn in between. (Unless there's something to the skill trick, as I'm unfamiliar with it. Or if you got a way to feint as a swift/free/immediate action, or got an extra move action somehow.) But IMO feinting is a horrible way to accomplish anything. You want some other way of getting sneak attack that doesn't require your move action (thus limiting you to one attack). WWA might actually be decent on a rogue, now that I think about it, as they can actually use the Spring Attack, Dodge and Combat Expertise prereqs and if you can start combat adjacent to some others you could dish out the damage. I still think Two Weapon Fighting would be a better feat (WWA is only superior when adjacent to three or more opponents, and decidedly less useful against a lone opponent). Three Words, Belt of Battle
Fenrir_Greyback 03-10-08, 01:00 PM	Ah yes, WWA is a full round action. I guess I should point that out to my DM. On the note of feinting as a free action, or making a bluff check to fake everyone out, I do believe I read about a feat or class ability somewhere that lets you do that. It was probably third party, so it's not the greatest. Methinks a prestige class is in order...
Spikes01k 03-10-08, 03:47 PM	Ah yes, WWA is a full round action. I guess I should point that out to my DM. On the note of feinting as a free action, or making a bluff check to fake everyone out, I do believe I read about a feat or class ability somewhere that lets you do that. It was probably third party, so it's not the greatest. Methinks a prestige class is in order... There is a magical item called belt of battle. As a swift action, once per day it grants a full round action, or a standard and a move action, or three move actions a day. You could use the belt to move move into place feint, then use your normal action to perform a Whirlwind attack.
mplindustries 03-10-08, 06:19 PM	Mithril Tornado and Adamantine Hurricane both only take standard actions. They both hit all adjacent opponents, and adamantine hurricane hits them all twice. Feint as a Move Action then whip out the manuever. If you take a dip into Warblade as your 13th level, you can pick up Mithril Tornado. It would take 3 feats to get it, so I think you're better off just getting it through a dip.
ToastedAmphibian 03-10-08, 07:51 PM	Or you could get a Tiny Swordsage Buddy with a spiked chain and Island of Blades!
GodGoblin 03-11-08, 07:05 AM	I think there is a feat that lets you fient as a swift action either that or its another skill trick, if not il advice my player to dip into invisible blade. Actually invisible blade would work rather well with his character he is an elven rogue who uses hidden knee and elbow blades and a hand crossbow. he trys to make the party think hes innocent but in reality hes taking levels in assasin. Thanks for all the help guys!
Mr_Teapot 03-11-08, 09:43 AM	Ah yes, WWA is a full round action. I guess I should point that out to my DM. On the note of feinting as a free action, or making a bluff check to fake everyone out, I do believe I read about a feat or class ability somewhere that lets you do that. It was probably third party, so it's not the greatest. Methinks a prestige class is in order... Beguiler with Improved Feint lets you feint as a free action, but it requires like five levels in a not very melee friendly class. But rogues would might find the low level illusions and such helpful. (I thought I had noted this earlier, but it looks like it was eaten by the forum or something.)
ToastedAmphibian 03-11-08, 08:15 PM	Or you could get a Tiny Swordsage Buddy with a spiked chain and Island of Blades! Seriously. He could sit on your shoulder. He would have 5ft reach. You would both flank anyone your adjacent too.......
UAMDB 03-12-08, 02:45 PM	Island of Blades says you flank all adjacent opponents. Having reach does nothing for the Stance.
Blue Paladin 03-12-08, 03:21 PM	Island of Blades says you flank all adjacent opponents. Having reach does nothing for the Stance.He said size Tiny. Having reach lets him actually attack outside his own square. And actually I believe the text of the stance says that people adjacent to the same target you are adjacent to gain the benefits of flanking. A strict reading would seem to indicate that you yourself do not gain any special flank benefit (although you can certainly gain it by moving to an appropriate square). This would mean the Tiny Swordsage doesn't get the flanking bonus (until someone takes up the true flanking position), only the guy whose shoulder on which he sits. But just the fact that he's there benefits other people.
ToastedAmphibian 03-12-08, 05:04 PM	Good thing the tiny guy isnt the one doing the whirlwinding then :}
yonman 03-12-08, 06:34 PM	There is no reason why it can't be done that I know of. However, UMDing a wand or scroll of Greater invisibility is probably a lot easier, as you take a -2 penalty fo each opponent beyond the first. If you want a cheaper want, just get a wand of Blink. There is a 20% miss chance though, but it gives the same effect of being able to sneak attack everyone around him.