Post/Author/DateTime	Post
PrinceCurtis 03-30-07, 03:51 PM	Is it legal to replace your attack from whirlwind attack With trip attempts then use Improved trip?
tarkin 03-30-07, 04:18 PM	1. Yes you can trip with Whirlwind. 2. No you don't get the free attacks. (Whirlwind has you give up all bonus or extra attacks that do not specifically say you get to keep them when using Whirlwind). But you do get the other benefits of Improved Trip (no AoO, Bonus to strength)
Centauri 04-01-07, 02:40 AM	2. No you don't get the free attacks. I would expect that's the intent behind the wording of Whirlwind attack, though the wording of Improved Trip doesn't describe the attack as "free" or "extra." It's clearly "free" but the wording of Improved Trip seems to go out of its way to describe it as something other than "extra."
StruckingFuggle 04-01-07, 03:01 AM	I wouldn't be surprised to see Whirlwind Attack errata'd back to the 3.0 version, though; since they didn't do anything like they did to WA with the Mithril Tornado / Adamantine Hurricane maneuver in ToB, and you even get a BONUS on attack rolls with it...
JLaurHughes 04-01-07, 06:37 PM	Lets look at each of these feats seperately. First Whirlwind attack. Whirlwind Attack This feat allows you to hit every target with your highest attack bonus which means if you have a 10th level fighter with weapon focus and greater weapon focus, a strength of 13+ the modifier on each attack is the same for each opponent that your fighter can reach. Basically (+10+1*+2)+13*. If you have 8 opponents all within a 5ft reach of you(normal weapon) you can hit each and every one of those opponents using a full attack action with the same attack modifier, losing any other attacks for that round. Improved Trip This feat just takes away any attacks of opportunity that your trip attempt would normally incur. Thus you can hit an opponent then make a trip attempt. If it fails, depending on the weapon, you can drop the weapon as normal. Working these two together is really easy, you still make the regular whirlwind attack, then with the trip weapon make the trip attempt without the AoO, and you can repeat this with everyone within your trip weapon's reach or until you fail the trip attempt, whichever comes first. I actually see no reason for the feat to be errata'd back to 3.0 because it does the same thing, it was just worded differently.
Centauri 04-01-07, 06:53 PM	Improved Trip This feat just takes away any attacks of opportunity that your trip attempt would normally incur. It also grants an immediate attack on the tripped target, as if the attack hadn't been used to trip. you can repeat this with everyone within your trip weapon's reach or until you fail the trip attempt, whichever comes first. Failing the trip attempt doesn't stop the whirlwind. Even if you're knocked prone yourself you can keep attacking (albeit with a -4 to your attacks). You can check the exact wording here: http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/feats.htm
Merestil Haye 04-01-07, 07:09 PM	I would expect that's the intent behind the wording of Whirlwind attack, though the wording of Improved Trip doesn't describe the attack as "free" or "extra." It's clearly "free" but the wording of Improved Trip seems to go out of its way to describe it as something other than "extra."It is (according to the FAQ) just another way of indicating what attack bonus you use.The Improved Trip feat description says that you get an extra attack after a successful trip attempt “as though you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.” That, however, is just a shorthand way of explaining what part of your normal attack routine you use for the extra attack; it’s not meant to imply that you enter some kind of strange time warp when you make trip attacks.
Centauri 04-01-07, 07:20 PM	It is (according to the FAQ) just another way of indicating what attack bonus you use. Ah, good. I did a quick search of the FAQ on "whirlwind" and didn't see anything, but I'm glad it's in there.
JLaurHughes 04-01-07, 07:49 PM	It also grants an immediate attack on the tripped target, as if the attack hadn't been used to trip. I am aware of this. Failing the trip attempt doesn't stop the whirlwind. Even if you're knocked prone yourself you can keep attacking (albeit with a -4 to your attacks). Remember you still need to follow the rules of the trip attack. If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check opposed by your Dexterity or Strength check to try to trip you. PHB p.158&159 This slows your whirlwind of attacks. Some weapons you can drop instead of being subject to this counter trip attack. Thus stopping any further attacks with that weapon, yes I know you can continue the attack round, but now you don't have a weapon to attack with in your hand. Trip weapons are defined as weapons that you can use to make a trip instead of treating the trip attempt as an unarmmed attack. With a trip attack you replace the attack with a touch attack at the same modifier. So to the question about replacing the whirlwind attacks with trip attacks, yes, you can do this.
Centauri 04-01-07, 07:57 PM	This slows your whirlwind of attacks. I don't see why. yes I know you can continue the attack round, but now you don't have a weapon to attack with in your hand. True, but you might have (and should have) a back up, such as a spiked gauntlet, or a weapon you can quickdraw. And if you're just interested in the trip attacks, you can make those unarmed.
JLaurHughes 04-01-07, 08:47 PM	True, but you might have (and should have) a back up, such as a spiked gauntlet, or a weapon you can quickdraw. And if you're just interested in the trip attacks, you can make those unarmed. I didn't say you couldn't. Also not everyone thinks of a secondary weapon or the Quickdraw feat. And if you have to draw a secondary weapon you provoke an attack of opportunity without the Quickdraw feat, which effectively ends that attack round if an opponent successfully hits.
Centauri 04-01-07, 08:59 PM	I didn't say you couldn't. Also not everyone thinks of a secondary weapon or the Quickdraw feat. I suppose not, but they definitely should if they plan to use trip attacks. And if you have to draw a secondary weapon you provoke an attack of opportunity without the Quickdraw feat, Drawing a weapon doesn't normally provoke an attack of opportunity, even without Quickdraw. However, it's normally a move action (or part of movement), so you couldn't do it during a full attack (such as Whirlwind Attack) without Quickdraw. I love Quickdraw. which effectively ends that attack round if an opponent successfully hits.Sure, if they kill or incapacitate you in the middle of the Whirlwind Attack, there's no way to keep attacking, but if, say, an opponent had a readied action to attack you, or a feat that let him attack you when you attacked him, that wouldn't necessarily end your Whirlwind Attack.
runestar 04-02-07, 12:50 AM	Plus, the whirlwind + mass tripping tactic isn't as effective as people make it out to be. A smart dm can easily place his enemies such that your whirlwind cannot target them all at any one time.:P
JLaurHughes 04-02-07, 01:08 AM	Sure, if they kill or incapacitate you in the middle of the Whirlwind Attack, there's no way to keep attacking, but if, say, an opponent had a readied action to attack you, or a feat that let him attack you when you attacked him, that wouldn't necessarily end your Whirlwind Attack. Being tripped in the middle of your whirlwind attack messes up your attacks a little, and once you miss you basically have to move to the next opponent. Whirlwind only gives you a single attack against each opponent in range, you still need to make a touch attack to hit then trip the opponent. And touch attacks are harder from the ground at that -4. Of course with a feat called Prone Attack, that's gone. But here we're talking about Whirlwind attack with Improved Trip. Just replace the regular attack from whirlwind attack with the trip attack, gain the extra attack on each opponent it still counts as the same one attack. And this is just everyone in range.
Merestil Haye 04-02-07, 06:23 AM	But here we're talking about Whirlwind attack with Improved Trip. Just replace the regular attack from whirlwind attack with the trip attack, gain the extra attack on each opponent it still counts as the same one attack. And this is just everyone in range.Improved Trip grants an extra attack against a creature you successfully trip. The FAQ quote I gave quite clearly explained this. Whirlwind Attack denies you any extra attacks from any source when you use that feat, thus you gain no additional attack against a creature you trip.
Centauri 04-02-07, 09:27 AM	Being tripped in the middle of your whirlwind attack messes up your attacks a little, There's nothing in the rules that simulates this, other than the -4 to attacks while prone. and once you miss you basically have to move to the next opponent. Whirlwind only gives you a single attack against each opponent in range, you still need to make a touch attack to hit then trip the opponent. I'm not understanding, I guess. Is this a rebuttal to the section you quoted from me? I didn't think I was saying anything that was out of line from what you're saying here.
PrinceCurtis 04-02-07, 04:11 PM	*Head Explodes* I guess I'll just make it a house rule, i doesn't seem game breaking.
JLaurHughes 04-02-07, 04:13 PM	More of an explaination of how the whirlwind tripping works, Centauri. As far as Merestil's response goes, the FAQ does state that it is an extra attack this is true, but it is an attack that counts as an all-in-one attack. Your quote can be interpreted in two ways, the way you've interpreted it, and the way it reads. The specific words "As though you hadn't used the attack" really means it is the same attack as I have thusly interpreted it to mean. To initiate a trip you need to make a touch attack, Tripping an opponent does not deal any damage to the opponent, it just causes him/her to fall prone, granting a bonus of +4(or that -4 modifier to the opponent's AC and attacks) to your next attack and against your opponent's prone attack. An attack is meant to deal damage that is why it is called an attack, Improved trip grants you a way of striking the opponent on the same attack for damage during the trip without using your extra attacks granted by your level.
Merestil Haye 04-02-07, 04:50 PM	To initiate a trip you need to make a touch attack, Tripping an opponent does not deal any damage to the opponent, it just causes him/her to fall prone, granting a bonus of +4(or that -4 modifier to the opponent's AC and attacks) to your next attack and against your opponent's prone attack. An attack is meant to deal damage that is why it is called an attack, Improved trip grants you a way of striking the opponent on the same attack for damage during the trip without using your extra attacks granted by your level.You still make a fundamental error. When you succeed in a trip, you then have to make another attack roll. As you point out, the opponent takes a -4 penalty to AC, so this attack has a different DC than the initial attack (this penalty applies whether the defender's AC is equal to his touch AC). If it was the same attack, then it would be made with exactly the same modifiers against exactly the same AC. There is some evidence for this, and that is the critical confirmation roll. That the critical confirmation roll is the same attack is confirmed by the fact that modifiers which apply to "your next attack" apply to the critical confirmation roll. This explicitly includes the +20 bonus from True Strike. Therefore here is a simple test. If you want to know whether an attack counts as an "extra attack" for purposes of Whirlwind Attack, it does so if a bonus from True Strike that applied to the previous attack roll, made against the same target, also applies to this attack roll. If it does not, it is an "extra attack"
JLaurHughes 04-02-07, 06:42 PM	If your modifiers change then it counts as a separate attack.
Merestil Haye 04-02-07, 08:42 PM	If your modifiers change then it counts as a separate attack.Then we have to disagree. I really believe you are misinterpreting the rules.
JLaurHughes 04-02-07, 09:04 PM	Then we have to disagree. I really believe you are misinterpreting the rules. And I believe in the same respect that even with the FAQ you quoted you're misinterpreting the rules. So lets just stay at this disagreement as it stands.
Warduke 04-03-07, 03:28 AM	Its funny this is even a real debate. Whirlwind attack specifically says you get no extra attacks from other spells, feats, etc. Somehow convincing yourself that using improved trip doesn't give you an extra attack just because the wording of the feat never specifically calls it an extra attack is rediculous. When all else fails try common sense. Every legal attack option in D&D can be semi-reasonably described by a DM. Some are a bit more super hero like than others, but feasable in a fantasy setting. A whirlwind trip that individually strikes each guy AFTER he goes down is just flat out ludicrous. Like the Improved Trip and Whirlwind feats are not powerfull enough as is....... By all means use that ability if you want to turn your D&D session into an episode of The Three Stooges or The Keystone Cops.
Centauri 04-03-07, 09:48 AM	Somehow convincing yourself that using improved trip doesn't give you an extra attack just because the wording of the feat never specifically calls it an extra attack is rediculous. I agree, but not for the following reason: A whirlwind trip that individually strikes each guy AFTER he goes down is just flat out ludicrous. Depends on how it's described. A trip doesn't have to be just sweeping the enemy's feet. It can be any move that knocks them off balance. I think it's fair to imagine that Improved Trip lets you get ahold of your enemy in a way that lets you hurt them while knocking them over. True, other game elements like the wolf's trip require an attack roll first but I don't think the end result is that different. Like the Improved Trip and Whirlwind feats are not powerfull enough as is....... I've seen many people argue that they're not, so this isn't a universally held opinion. It's easy to find enemies and situations in which either feat (if not both of them) can be rendered useless. On the plus side, at least Whirlwind Attack has some uesful (again arguably) prerequisites.
JLaurHughes 04-03-07, 11:07 AM	Key words from each feat you need to look at: Whirlwind attack - "Every opponent within range" which means as long as your reach gets to them you can make one melee attack on each opponent, for 5ft. reach (your normal reach) that's up to 8 opponents. Improved Trip - "as if you hadn't used your attack for the trip attempt." This means that attack you used up with the trip is not counted as an attack roll and you can make an immediate melee attack roll against your opponent. Now this is both up to interpretation, so if you want to believe that this attack that you get after a successful trip is a bonus rather than counting as the same attack, that is denied on a whirlwind attack which uses only your primary attack roll modifier for each opponent in range when you use the trip instead of an attack, that is certainly up to you.
Merestil Haye 04-03-07, 11:51 AM	Improved Trip - "as if you hadn't used your attack for the trip attempt." This means that attack you used up with the trip is not counted as an attack roll and you can make an immediate melee attack roll against your opponent.Except that the FAQ states this is exactly what it does not mean. What it does mean is that the follow up attack is made using the same base attack bonus as the touch attack made to start the trip, and not at a (further) -5 penalty because it is a separate iterative attack. It means the same thing as "The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature." means in the Cleave feat. It is "just a shorthand way of explaining what part of your normal attack routine you use for the extra attack" and not a statement that it is somehow the same attack.
1hitparry 04-03-07, 01:37 PM	I would rule that you can't trip with a whirlwind because of what someone told me. What he talked about involved cleave, though, not trip, and I haven't looked at the rules, so I could be wrong. The way he explained it, with whirlwind, you must make a regular attack. Otherwise you could carry around a pale full of slugs and own. 1. Confront enemy 2. Throw out slugs 3. Whirlwind slugs using cleave attempts 4. Use attacks gained from cleave attempts against enemy Like I said, this is the way it was explained to me. If someone says I'm wrong, they're probably right. Edit: I'm looking at some similar posts, and they're ruling against what I say. So I'm just going to say I'm wrong, too. I guess cleave isn't the same as making a trip attempt.
JLaurHughes 04-03-07, 03:51 PM	Except that the FAQ states this is exactly what it does not mean. What it does mean is that the follow up attack is made using the same base attack bonus as the touch attack made to start the trip, and not at a (further) -5 penalty because it is a separate iterative attack. It means the same thing as "The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature." means in the Cleave feat. It is "just a shorthand way of explaining what part of your normal attack routine you use for the extra attack" and not a statement that it is somehow the same attack. Do you have the link to the entire FAQ? And could you post it for me.
Merestil Haye 04-03-07, 04:56 PM	Do you have the link to the entire FAQ? And could you post it for me.The FAQ is available through the main Wizards website; it's a .pdf document so you need Adobe Reader once you've downloaded and unpacked it. The FAQ page is here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a). It's updated monthly. There's also a regular Ask Wizards feature with rules questions (on weekdays) on the main page. The FAQ question I'm relying on.Suppose a character with the Improved Trip feat uses the Bluff skill to successfully feint in combat and uses his next melee attack to trip the duped opponent. It seems clear that the character ignores that opponent’s Dexterity bonus to Armor Class for the touch attack to initiate the trip. Assuming that the trip attempt is successful, Improved Trip provides an additional attack as if the character hadn’t used her attack for the trip attempt. Does this mean that the character continues to ignore the tripped opponent’s Dexterity bonus to Armor Class for the additional attack granted by Improved Trip feat? How do other “next attack only” effects (like the true strike spell) work with the Improved Trip feat? In each case, the initial attack in trip attempt is the “next attack,” not the extra attack that you get from the Improved Trip feat. That is, if you’ve made a successful feint, your foe is denied any Dexterity bonus to Armor Class when you make the initial melee touch attack to start your trip attempt, but not when you attack him after a successful trip. Likewise, if you use the true strike spell, the +20 attack bonus applies to the touch attack, not to the free attack. The Improved Trip feat description says that you get an extra attack after a successful trip attempt “as though you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.” That, however, is just a shorthand way of explaining what part of your normal attack routine you use for the extra attack; it’s not meant to imply that you enter some kind of strange time warp when you make trip attacks.
JLaurHughes 04-03-07, 10:01 PM	Based on the question being asked in the FAQ, how exactly can the answer be applied to a completely different question? It can't, it can be a basis for an answer to a completely different question. With respect to the OP question, Can I use Whirlwind Attack and Improved Trip at the same time? The answer is yes, you can replace the Attacks with trip attempt. This though brings up one further questions. Can you utilize the Improved trip's Trip then strike on each person, This is where debate comes up. The only way to get an answer, because the wording of the feat itself does not state whether or not it can be kept when used in the whirlwind attack - trip full attack action, is to direct the question to the wise sage.
runestar 04-03-07, 10:37 PM	It seems quite clear to me. :confused: The FAQ implies that the extra attack granted by improved trip is a bonus attack. Whirlwind attack disables all bonus attacks....
JLaurHughes 04-03-07, 11:19 PM	It seems quite clear to me. :confused: The FAQ implies that the extra attack granted by improved trip is a bonus attack. Whirlwind attack disables all bonus attacks.... And I'm just going to drop it because even though I feel that I'm right, no one else is going to look at it the way I do.
Nom 04-03-07, 11:23 PM	Of course, the root problem is that they modified WWA to resolve a mechanical problem with (Great) Cleave, without actually fixing Cleave. There's nothing design-wise problematic about tripping or doing any other special action off a WWA attack, as long as the "one attack per target" restriction is preserved. Cleave has this nasty little "feature" where it can grant you a free attack against a target that wasn't legal for the original attack, which is what allowed the various WWA/Great Cleave abuses in the first place.
Merestil Haye 04-04-07, 07:28 AM	Based on the question being asked in the FAQ, how exactly can the answer be applied to a completely different question? It can't, it can be a basis for an answer to a completely different question. With respect to the OP question, Can I use Whirlwind Attack and Improved Trip at the same time? The answer is yes, you can replace the Attacks with trip attempt. This though brings up one further questions. Can you utilize the Improved trip's Trip then strike on each person, This is where debate comes up. The only way to get an answer, because the wording of the feat itself does not state whether or not it can be kept when used in the whirlwind attack - trip full attack action, is to direct the question to the wise sage.The designers answered the question "Does Improved Trip give you an extra attack?" as part of the discussion. Whirlwind Attack disallows extra attacks. How is the principle outlined in the answer not applicable to the discussion here?
Centauri 04-04-07, 09:37 AM	And I'm just going to drop it because even though I feel that I'm right, no one else is going to look at it the way I do. Given the supposed weakness of the fighter class, and the arguable usefulness of Whirlwind Attack and Improved Trip, I'd venture to say that you're not going to break your game horribly by playing it your way. Best of luck.
JLaurHughes 04-04-07, 10:43 PM	Given the supposed weakness of the fighter class, and the arguable usefulness of Whirlwind Attack and Improved Trip, I'd venture to say that you're not going to break your game horribly by playing it your way. Best of luck. Thank you, and Merestil Haye, I've dropped it, so I am requesting you do the same.
runestar 04-04-07, 11:52 PM	While you are free to run improved trip anyway you wish in your games, should we at least not clear up the issue before this thread gets closed, for the benefit of future generations?:P
JLaurHughes 04-05-07, 12:40 AM	This is why I was suggesting sending the question to the Sage of sage advice. That seems the only way to truly clear it up once and for all, I'm done arguing my point of view on the feat. To the OP, there are basically two ways that the use of this feat combo can be taken. The way I see it, which is, since the Improved trip replaces the melee attack with a touch attack in order to initiate the trip (10+Dex+Size+Dodge&Misc bonuses[ie, wis of a monk]) then allows you a bonus attack against the modified armor class of the now off balance or prone, thereby losing Dex and any dodge bonuses and gaining a -4 circumstance bonus, which is a melee attack. Due to the wording of whirlwind attack, which you must give up all but your primary melee attack bonus against each opponent, I am of the belief that Whirlwind Tripping, will allow the bonus melee attack since the initial attack is a touch-trip and not exactly a melee attack. Or The other way to see it is that the bonus attack from the Improved Trip is counted as an extra melee attack, and thus will be lost in a whirlwind trip attack. In this second idea of the wording the Whirlwind Trip attack, each trip which still counts as a melee touch, does not gain the bonus melee attack against the prone/off-balance opponents. Whichever way you choose to see it, you can still make a whirlwind attack to trip all opponents within melee attack range of you or your reach weapon. Those outside range cannot be tripped. Whirlwind Attack does specify that the opponents must be within range of your melee attack. Weapons with reach can provide up to a 10ft. and sometimes 15ft.(Meteor hammer, Special monk weapon, and I don't exactly remember where it's from). And I am probably going to make a feat specifically for this type of attack, and hopefully get it approved and sanctioned by WotC themselves.
Nom 04-05-07, 02:57 AM	As far as I can tell, they didn't actually consider Improved Trip when changing WWA. The change was (poorly) made to fix a Cleave abuse, and IT may or may not have been caught up for the ride. A straight reading of the rules would probably conclude that IT is an extra attack, even though its language is different to that of Cleave. In my games, I fix WWA/Cleave by fixing Cleave (ie the problem), and thus don't bother about the fine details of exactly what abilities are or are not verboten during a WWA.
JLaurHughes 04-05-07, 10:33 AM	I know there was abuse of the cleave feat, though if I'm reading it correctly, you only get one extra attack per round, IF you slay your initial opponent, and IF there is another opponent in direct melee with you at that moment. Like Whirlwind attack this doesn't always happen where conditions are met in such a way. Cleave does state in both 3.0 and 3.5 that it is usable only "once per round." Though a lot of people ignored this point I think. Whirlwind attack was fixed to allow for the reach weapons, originally it stated that the melee opponents within 5ft. This of course causes some issues with the Improved Trip feat I think. I still believe that the Trip, while being an extra attack is an exception to the Whirlwind, because if you trip an opponent or knock the opponent off balance you should be allowed the attack, basically an attack of opportunity in many respects. Except that you don't use up your AoO for the round. The change to Whirlwind attack was also to fix the problem with the Great Cleave feat, which allowed for as many extra attacks at the same attack bonus as there were enemies that you killed with the previous attack, still without a 5ft. movement.
1hitparry 04-05-07, 01:38 PM	Regular cleave can only be used once as you metioned. Great Cleave, on the other hand, is what I was talking about. Great Cleave gets rid of the one per round limit. Which means, if you can combine Cleave attempts with Whirlwind, all you need is a pale full of slug or something similar to beat anything in melee.
liquidhypnotic 04-26-07, 11:11 PM	Hunh, I would have sworn that it worked the other way. Unfortunately, it seems that you do NOT get any sort of follow-up attack after tripping an opponent as part of a Whirlwind; the SRD text for Whirlwind now states that you give up "any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities". The loosening of the language strongly seems to indicate that any and all such attacks are to be included. The word "extra" was intended to be part of the text for IT. Sorry. I'd suggest a few real fixes: Cleave: Strengthen the "another creature within reach" to "any legal target within reach". Improved Trip: Just hijack the text from cleave; change the second line to say: "If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get an extra melee attack against that creature. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that tripped the creature. This extra attack is subject to all of the restrictions and benefits that apply to the extra attack granted by the Cleave feat." I mean, it's clear to us that the extra attack granted by cleaving isn't supposed to be treated as the next iterative attack in sequence, nor do things like True Strike and Invisibility carry over to Cleave's extra attack, so why not hijack the language and thus inherit the same errata? ***** However, I still don't like it at all, to be honest, and I propose that Combat Reflexes have a line added to it: "This feat also grants a number of extra attacks that can be used during a Whirlwind attack, regardless of their source." I doubt that the WWA build is really Dexy. Another potential solution: I like to house rule in synergistic effects, and I might be willing to say that one who has Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, Whirlwind Attack and one other "fast" type of thing (such as Flurry of Blows, Lightning Reflexes, Whirling Frenzy, etc) (which requires a whopping 7 feats if you're lucky) may then gain all of the extra attacks granted by IT during a whirlwind. I'm imagining Jet Li spinning around, kicking a guy's feet out from under him and hammer fisting him on the way down, or grabbing a guy by the throat and then slamming him down to the ground, and doing stuff like this for about 6 seconds, leaving him surrounded with dudes moaning on the ground. at the end. Bad ass. The rules are against it, this is true, but one runs his or her game as he/she sees fit. Or perhaps, actually, considering how easy tripping is, add a "once per round" restriction to Improved Trip's extra attacks, like Cleave, and then create another feat that allows unlimited post-trip extra attacks, like Great Cleave. "There is no limit to the number of times that you can benefit from the second effect of Improved Trip in a round." If the reason that that clause was added to the text of WWA was to prevent "paILs (spelling ftw) full of slugs" from becoming a problem, then I have another fix for it: Kick out any player stupid enough to carry around a pail full of slugs. The fault lies mostly with DMs. Also, the 4-6 post long exchange back and forth asking each other to just drop it was the most ridiculous passive aggressiveness I've ever seen. This board isn't for airing out squabbles.