Whirlwind attack + trip [Archive] - Wizards Community

Whirlwind attack + trip [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
war_thog
09-09-07, 08:30 AM Ok my question revolves around an unsurity over something.

WW attack: (from SRD)

"Benefit
When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach.

When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities."

The PHB gives examples of cleave and haste as things you cant get bonus from.

Cleave: (from SRD)

"Benefit
If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. You can use this ability once per round."

Clearly a bonus attack, so it doesnt stack.

Improved Trip:

"Benefit
You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed. You also gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check to trip your opponent.

If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt."

Not so clearly a bonus attack.

You get it as if you didnt have your normal one. A replacement of sorts.

Question though:

Would you be able to use ww attack and trip people and get the "special trip hit" on each of these attacks, or not?
evesweater
09-09-07, 09:47 AM Not totally sure, but it sounds like a no. When they say, "forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities," it sounds like they are trying to cover all possibilities. Plus, improved trip is in the Feats section of the PH and also a bonus feat for fighters.:(
EjoThims
09-09-07, 09:48 AM Yes.

WW is really only worth it if you have crazy reach though.
war_thog
09-09-07, 10:16 AM I was thinking 15-20 ft on a medium character.
One needing more feats than the other though, but you do get that extra 5ft.

It does say feats. But also bonus attacks. As you can see Cleave *the example* and trip are worded somewhat differently. One indicates bonus attacks, the other replacement attacks.
I think the trip replacement attack is meant to indicate the damage you would deal for tripping someone.
We dont trip our friends nicely. We wrap our spiked chain around their leg and pull. We smack them across the chest while kicking their legs out.
For these not to deal any damage is implausible.
You wouldnt be able to effectively trip a bad guy in a combat situation without causing him some form of injury.
*hell people can die from the fall IRL, crack your head on the ground and your ass is grass*
Nom
09-10-07, 09:01 AM It's certainly possible to read the rules to say that you don't get the follow-up attack.

It's also not broken to allow it. WWA was changed to prevent Cleaving or otherwise redirecting the WWA attacks to another target. Improved Trip doesn't do this, and seems to me to be an incidental side effect of fixing the non-broken rule in the 3.0 WWA/Cleave combo.
Dalthbar
09-10-07, 09:23 AM I always envisioned the Imp. Trip routine as being a single, flowing action. You try to sweep the person off their feet and with the same momentum, you're also following that up with an attack on them. This mental image is somewhat consistent with the "as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt" language.

Since cleave, and many other feats clearly state that you are "gaining an extra attack" and use that specific language, it seems to me that these are the attacks that you can not use with WWA.

Imp. Trip seems to be very specific in that it added language that effectively says "this is not an extra attack" (but unfortunately comes just shy of using that exact wording). However, in all the games I've played in, the attack with Imp. Trip is something that we allowed to be used with WWA.
Hsien
09-10-07, 10:30 AM I would lean towards "no" off hand.
WW sacrifices regular attacks to take the WW attack instead.

Although the Imp Trip description was provided, the basic trip info was not.
When atempting a melee trip you make a touch attack, iirc.

You've already replaced all your regular attacks with the WW, therefore you have no regular attacks left to replace with a Trip attack.

There may also some game mechanic issues there that could be a problem if it was allowed.
~What if one of the trip checks fail?
~Can you pick who gets checked against first and at each point?...gee that guy looks big and strong lets WW attack but do the trip check on him last just in case I lose the check and I'm tripped or forced to drop the weapon.
Such individual selection is not provided for in the WW description, because I don't think that WW + Trip was intended as a possibility.

I think I would have to be against allowing a WW + trip combo

edited:
After reviewing some info I hold firm on this.
Trip, disarm, bull rush etc...are special attacks that replace normal attacks. ( ref. FAQ; monk flurry and trip)
As the normal attacks have all been replaced by the WW; there can be no combination with trip.
war_thog
09-10-07, 07:57 PM It says you give up your regular attacks and make one attack at full BaB against each person.
One normal attack at full BaB.
Youre right they can replace normal attacks. They can even replace 2 wep fight or flurry attacks.
WW gives you 1 vs everyone. Which can also be replaced.
Bull rush doesnt count, its a standard action.
Trip is an attack action, which WW gives us many of.
Merestil Haye
09-10-07, 10:17 PM In the context of discussing whether the follow-up attack from Improved Trip benefits from a successful feint made before the trip attempt, the designers say this :The Improved Trip feat description says that you get an extra attack after a successful trip attempt “as though you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.” That, however, is just a shorthand way of explaining what part of your normal attack routine you use for the extra attack; it’s not meant to imply that you enter some kind of strange time warp when you make trip attacks.From this we can see that the answer to the main question is intended to be that you do not get any follow-up attacks if you trip as part of a whirlwind attack.

Just as a note :Bull rush doesnt count, its a standard action.
Trip is an attack action, which WW gives us many of.This is incorrect. Whirlwind Attack does not give "many atack (sic) actions". It is a single full attack action that allows multiple attacks. Improved Trip is one of those special attacks that can be used to replace a melee attack at any time a creature could make an attack, whether or not they are taking an attack action.
war_thog
09-11-07, 08:09 AM Thats what I meant, looking back at it your right i didnt type it right. Take out "action" and it is more appropriate.
Was thinking action from typing standard action in the line above.

Interesting quote you have there. Wheres it from? It makes sense but ive never seen it.
Merestil Haye
09-11-07, 09:06 AM Interesting quote you have there. Wheres it from? It makes sense but ive never seen it.My first quote was from the 3.5 FAQ (July 2007 edition). Search for "improved trip" in the document as it's the only question with that phrase.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
war_thog 09-09-07, 08:30 AM	Ok my question revolves around an unsurity over something. WW attack: (from SRD) "Benefit When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities." The PHB gives examples of cleave and haste as things you cant get bonus from. Cleave: (from SRD) "Benefit If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. You can use this ability once per round." Clearly a bonus attack, so it doesnt stack. Improved Trip: "Benefit You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed. You also gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check to trip your opponent. If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt." Not so clearly a bonus attack. You get it as if you didnt have your normal one. A replacement of sorts. Question though: Would you be able to use ww attack and trip people and get the "special trip hit" on each of these attacks, or not?
evesweater 09-09-07, 09:47 AM	Not totally sure, but it sounds like a no. When they say, "forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities," it sounds like they are trying to cover all possibilities. Plus, improved trip is in the Feats section of the PH and also a bonus feat for fighters.:(
EjoThims 09-09-07, 09:48 AM	Yes. WW is really only worth it if you have crazy reach though.
war_thog 09-09-07, 10:16 AM	I was thinking 15-20 ft on a medium character. One needing more feats than the other though, but you do get that extra 5ft. It does say feats. But also bonus attacks. As you can see Cleave the example and trip are worded somewhat differently. One indicates bonus attacks, the other replacement attacks. I think the trip replacement attack is meant to indicate the damage you would deal for tripping someone. We dont trip our friends nicely. We wrap our spiked chain around their leg and pull. We smack them across the chest while kicking their legs out. For these not to deal any damage is implausible. You wouldnt be able to effectively trip a bad guy in a combat situation without causing him some form of injury. hell people can die from the fall IRL, crack your head on the ground and your ass is grass
Nom 09-10-07, 09:01 AM	It's certainly possible to read the rules to say that you don't get the follow-up attack. It's also not broken to allow it. WWA was changed to prevent Cleaving or otherwise redirecting the WWA attacks to another target. Improved Trip doesn't do this, and seems to me to be an incidental side effect of fixing the non-broken rule in the 3.0 WWA/Cleave combo.
Dalthbar 09-10-07, 09:23 AM	I always envisioned the Imp. Trip routine as being a single, flowing action. You try to sweep the person off their feet and with the same momentum, you're also following that up with an attack on them. This mental image is somewhat consistent with the "as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt" language. Since cleave, and many other feats clearly state that you are "gaining an extra attack" and use that specific language, it seems to me that these are the attacks that you can not use with WWA. Imp. Trip seems to be very specific in that it added language that effectively says "this is not an extra attack" (but unfortunately comes just shy of using that exact wording). However, in all the games I've played in, the attack with Imp. Trip is something that we allowed to be used with WWA.
Hsien 09-10-07, 10:30 AM	I would lean towards "no" off hand. WW sacrifices regular attacks to take the WW attack instead. Although the Imp Trip description was provided, the basic trip info was not. When atempting a melee trip you make a touch attack, iirc. You've already replaced all your regular attacks with the WW, therefore you have no regular attacks left to replace with a Trip attack. There may also some game mechanic issues there that could be a problem if it was allowed. ~What if one of the trip checks fail? ~Can you pick who gets checked against first and at each point?...gee that guy looks big and strong lets WW attack but do the trip check on him last just in case I lose the check and I'm tripped or forced to drop the weapon. Such individual selection is not provided for in the WW description, because I don't think that WW + Trip was intended as a possibility. I think I would have to be against allowing a WW + trip combo edited: After reviewing some info I hold firm on this. Trip, disarm, bull rush etc...are special attacks that replace normal attacks. ( ref. FAQ; monk flurry and trip) As the normal attacks have all been replaced by the WW; there can be no combination with trip.
war_thog 09-10-07, 07:57 PM	It says you give up your regular attacks and make one attack at full BaB against each person. One normal attack at full BaB. Youre right they can replace normal attacks. They can even replace 2 wep fight or flurry attacks. WW gives you 1 vs everyone. Which can also be replaced. Bull rush doesnt count, its a standard action. Trip is an attack action, which WW gives us many of.
Merestil Haye 09-10-07, 10:17 PM	In the context of discussing whether the follow-up attack from Improved Trip benefits from a successful feint made before the trip attempt, the designers say this :The Improved Trip feat description says that you get an extra attack after a successful trip attempt “as though you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.” That, however, is just a shorthand way of explaining what part of your normal attack routine you use for the extra attack; it’s not meant to imply that you enter some kind of strange time warp when you make trip attacks.From this we can see that the answer to the main question is intended to be that you do not get any follow-up attacks if you trip as part of a whirlwind attack. Just as a note :Bull rush doesnt count, its a standard action. Trip is an attack action, which WW gives us many of.This is incorrect. Whirlwind Attack does not give "many atack (sic) actions". It is a single full attack action that allows multiple attacks. Improved Trip is one of those special attacks that can be used to replace a melee attack at any time a creature could make an attack, whether or not they are taking an attack action.
war_thog 09-11-07, 08:09 AM	Thats what I meant, looking back at it your right i didnt type it right. Take out "action" and it is more appropriate. Was thinking action from typing standard action in the line above. Interesting quote you have there. Wheres it from? It makes sense but ive never seen it.
Merestil Haye 09-11-07, 09:06 AM	Interesting quote you have there. Wheres it from? It makes sense but ive never seen it.My first quote was from the 3.5 FAQ (July 2007 edition). Search for "improved trip" in the document as it's the only question with that phrase.