Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Steidas 07-24-07, 11:19 PM	As worded, I understand that you give up your extra normal attacks and all granted by feats or abilities. However, can you make AoO since they're not granted by abilities? Second question, are there any feats/classes that improve this piece of crap?
zorgling25 07-24-07, 11:22 PM	As worded, I understand that you give up your extra normal attacks and all granted by feats or abilities. However, can you make AoO since they're not granted by abilities? Second question, are there any feats/classes that improve this piece of crap? The way I read it, I assume it means other attacks that would normally be made as part of a full attack (you can still cleave, but you can't off-hand fight). There's a feat in Dragon that lets you make your full attack, IN ADDITION to Whirlwind Attack. There's also one somewhere that lets you make offhand attacks while performing Whirlwind Attack. Whirlwind Attack generally sucks because of such minimal gain for a steep prereq feat. It shines however with two things: 1) Spiked Chains, Kusari-gamas and similar weapons 2) Larger-than-medium characters.
runestar 07-24-07, 11:25 PM	You can't cleave, since that is expressly prohibited in the feat's entry.
Steidas 07-24-07, 11:27 PM	You can't cleave, since that is expressly prohibited in the feat's entry. My question again. If an enemy after that comes to YOU and takes of his pants to show you his rear and shakes it in front of you (presenting an AoO under normal circumstances), can you make that AoO?
runestar 07-24-07, 11:50 PM	As worded, I understand that you give up your extra normal attacks and all granted by feats or abilities. However, can you make AoO since they're not granted by abilities? Yes and maybe no. The wording is arguably ambiguous enough to be interpreted either way. You only give up all extra attacks that you would normally be accrued during your full-round attack action. If your foe somehow provokes an AoO during this time (eg: both of you have karmic strike active), you can make that AoO. However, if you have combat reflexes, and could somehow make more than 1 AoO during this time, you are still limited to only 1 AoO, since the wording of whirlwind would disable the extra AoOs granted by combat reflexes.
zorgling25 07-25-07, 12:31 AM	You can't cleave, since that is expressly prohibited in the feat's entry. Well I'm certainly silly... Then yeah, no extra attacks, even with cleave or combat reflexes. Standard AoOs aren't really an ability in the strictest sense of the term, I would say you can make your normal AoO. Other attacks can only be made if they specifically override Whirlwind Attack. On a side note, whirlwind attack says that you lose bonus or extra attacks. Whats the difference between a bonus attack and an extra attack?
runestar 07-25-07, 12:49 AM	I am guessing extra attacks refer mainly to your additional attacks gained from "always on" effects like high bab, natural weapons and TWFing. Nothing can take them away. Bonus attacks might refer to effects which might grant you additional attacks if certain criteria are met, such as cleave. In a way, it is similar to extra attacks, but is not always a given. So it is a "bonus" if you get it. Regardless, the distinction seems overly fine. I wouldn't lose sleep fretting over it.:)
JLaurHughes 07-25-07, 01:00 AM	Bonus Attacks are those that come from having a high BaB(Such as a fighter's +6/+1 at 6th level). Extra attacks are those that come from spells and Feats, such as the effect from Haste spell, or the extra offhand attack from the Two-Weapon Fighting Feat. AoO's don't count as extra or bonus attacks because they are usually provoked when it isn't your action. There are rare instances that an AoO is provoked on your action, such as those from a trip attack(Successful trip attempt provokes an AoO). In the second case(A successful trip) the extra attack is negated, though by the wording of the Improved Trip feat it isn't stated as an extra attack.
zorgling25 07-25-07, 01:03 AM	Bonus Attacks are those that come from having a high BaB(Such as a fighter's +6/+1 at 6th level). Extra attacks are those that come from spells and effects, such as the effect from Haste spell, or the extra offhand attack from the Two-Weapon Fighting Feat. AoO's don't count as extra or bonus attacks because they are usually provoked when it isn't your action. There are rare instances that an AoO is provoked on your action, such as those from a trip attack(Successful trip attempt provokes an AoO). In the second case(A successful trip) the extra attack is negated, though by the wording of the Improved Trip feat it isn't stated as an extra attack. Is there anything from Wizards on this? Perhaps a Rules of the Game article or something in the SRD? Because if this is true, then you DO get the attacks from combat reflexes.
JLaurHughes 07-25-07, 01:16 AM	AoO's are rarely provoked on your initiative, Exceptions to this are when you trip someone, but it would then count as an extra attack on your initiative. Extra attacks/bonus attacks that are mentioned in the whirlwind attack feat means any attacks that YOU make on YOUR initiative.
malignor 07-25-07, 12:16 PM	Are there any feats/classes that improve this piece of crap?There are plenty of good mixes... Close weapon + reach weapon. The feat doesn't restrict it to one readied weapon, and says "full BAB". Everyone adjacent gets spiked, everyone in 10' radius gets hit by the bigger weapon. Examples include: - Wearing Armor Spikes and wielding a Glaive - Alter Self into a Troglodtye, use bite attacks for up close and a Longspear for 10' away. - Being a Choker, or other creature with exceptional reach. - You get Polymorphed into a Minotaur (5-10' reach via Gore), and are wielding a Ranseur (15-20' reach).
Steidas 07-25-07, 05:41 PM	There are plenty of good mixes... Close weapon + reach weapon. The feat doesn't restrict it to one readied weapon, and says "full BAB". Everyone adjacent gets spiked, everyone in 10' radius gets hit by the bigger weapon. Examples include: - Wearing Armor Spikes and wielding a Glaive - Alter Self into a Troglodtye, use bite attacks for up close and a Longspear for 10' away. - Being a Choker, or other creature with exceptional reach. - You get Polymorphed into a Minotaur (5-10' reach via Gore), and are wielding a Ranseur (15-20' reach). Now that's actually pretty fun with Strenght Devotion, but are you serious with this? I mean, I always thought about Quick Draw + Ranseur + Greatsword. You Ranseur attack everyone within reach, drop it and take the greatsword and greatsword all the remaning.
BrutishCelt 07-25-07, 09:40 PM	It takes 2 feats, but [Short Haft] from the PHB2 allows you to switch between using your polearm as a reach weapon or against adjacent enemies as a swift action. Mr. Ranseur doesn't need to play second fiddle to Mr. Greatsword. Heck, take this with a large critter and add [Monkey Grip], and you get to lay down hurt in a massive radius.
Steidas 07-26-07, 12:24 AM	It takes 2 feats, but [Short Haft] from the PHB2 allows you to switch between using your polearm as a reach weapon or against adjacent enemies as a swift action. Mr. Ranseur doesn't need to play second fiddle to Mr. Greatsword. Heck, take this with a large critter and add [Monkey Grip], and you get to lay down hurt in a massive radius. The only "but" with Short Haft is that you stay with the reduced reach, wheres on Quick Draw you begin with Two handed and end with ranseur. You can even pack two or three nonmagical weapons to do the whole thing. I like the Monkey Grip thing though.
Potato Weasel 07-26-07, 11:12 AM	But monkey grip doesnt add to your reach.
Steidas 07-26-07, 11:54 AM	But monkey grip doesnt add to your reach. It adds damage.
malignor 07-26-07, 12:15 PM	It adds damage.I'd rather just use a 2-point Power Attack, with a 2-handed weapon (+4 damage). Same penalty as monkey grip, no need for special weapons, a slightly higher average damage output and the option to (if the foe has high AC) not do the PA.
Steidas 07-26-07, 07:58 PM	I'd rather just use a 2-point Power Attack, with a 2-handed weapon (+4 damage). Same penalty as monkey grip, no need for special weapons, a slightly higher average damage output and the option to (if the foe has high AC) not do the PA. If you ALREADY have power attack and are ALREADY giving full PA the extra damage comes in handy. Plus, if you are enlarged... Wow mate, that certainly is a big sword ya got ther'...
malignor 07-26-07, 08:09 PM	If you ALREADY have power attack and are ALREADY giving full PA the extra damage comes in handy. Plus, if you are enlarged... Wow mate, that certainly is a big sword ya got ther'...Sorry. I just find Monkey Grip to be very not worth it. The numbers for it stink, and ppl who want a massive weapon can always just say "it's special made, light material" or it's hollow or something, thus retaining the weight. Just looks big and fancy, and image is all most ppl are looking for anyway.
Steidas 07-26-07, 08:18 PM	Sorry. I just find Monkey Grip to be very not worth it. The numbers for it stink, and ppl who want a massive weapon can always just say "it's special made, light material" or it's hollow or something, thus retaining the weight. Just looks big and fancy, and image is all most ppl are looking for anyway. Yeah, but the numbers are with you with monkey grip... maybe you'll never hit... or maybe you will if your team helps ya... and when you do, it'll be big. And don't let me get started on how fulfilling is getting a critical hit with one of these.
ArcTan 07-26-07, 08:26 PM	Monkey Grip is a newbie trap, just like Whirlwind Attack itself. It *looks* good, but that's just because it's easier to remember the one time you did hit and did lots of damage, ignoring the many, many times you missed. You will do far more total damage throughout your career if you don't use Monkey Grip than if you do (as long as your DM is giving you level-appropriate encounters).
ArcTan 07-26-07, 08:27 PM	If you ALREADY have power attack and are ALREADY giving full PA the extra damage comes in handy. Plus, if you are enlarged... Wow mate, that certainly is a big sword ya got ther'... Not really. Things that are so easy to hit that you don't care if you PA for full are things that would go down really quickly anyway, without the need for overkill damage. Like I said, it's a newbie trap. It's for people who don't realize that the way D&D works is that the encounters where damage matters are also the encounters where attack matters -- that if you can hit it easily you can kill it easily, so who cares? (This is the reason Great Cleave is also a newbie trap.)
Steidas 07-26-07, 10:13 PM	Not really. Things that are so easy to hit that you don't care if you PA for full are things that would go down really quickly anyway, without the need for overkill damage. Like I said, it's a newbie trap. It's for people who don't realize that the way D&D works is that the encounters where damage matters are also the encounters where attack matters -- that if you can hit it easily you can kill it easily, so who cares? (This is the reason Great Cleave is also a newbie trap.) Odd... I've been playing D&D since 2004 (before I played AD&D since 2001). The difference between other feats and this one is that THIS one isn't the BEST option out there. It's basically just something for flavor. Like I said, IT STILL IS A REALLY BIG TWO HANDED SWORD, and NOBODY can deny that... plus it makes some extra damage, and when you're Whirlwinding 5 Trolls at level 6 and have an ABSURD Attack Bonus (Bull Strenght + Prayer + Bless + Enlarge + Greater Magic Weapon + Bard + whatever else you can think off), the extra damage COULD come in handy. I'll have to see at 8th level when I get my extra feat.
malignor 07-26-07, 10:36 PM	That says to me "Numbers are nice, but macho-factor is better!" Now THAT's a sentiment I can agree with, 137%.
Steidas 07-26-07, 10:57 PM	What other feats can be added up to get the most of this pile of whatever?
Potato Weasel 07-27-07, 10:41 AM	sneak attack dice, either by flanking (easy if your team has reach too) or denying them dex bonus (grease makes them flat footed, and if their still on their feet when you hit them, they have to make another balance check). There are also the one round damage spells that are a swift action to cast, cant remember names though. If you play a high level duskblade cant you channel a spell into every hit on a full round attack? If your an enlarged chain fighter, thats a lot of spell damage added.
Steidas 07-27-07, 11:51 AM	Actually I'm interested in stuff a normal fighter build can do.
BrutishCelt 07-29-07, 09:12 AM	Well, if you want to blow a whole lotta feats [which pure fighters have, so the point is moot], then you can add [Combat Reflexes] for extra AoOs in your massive threat range. [Defensive Sweep] from PHB2 let's you make an AoO against an opponent that begins and ends his turn in a threatened area without moving [only really useful if you have some extra AoOs from the previous feat]. Pick up a Dex-boosting item [maybe gauntlets of Dex], and don't worry about spending hard-earned attribute points on something that isn't part of your damage potential. The [Weapon Mastery/ Supremacy] track lets you apply your focus and specialization across a broader range of weapons [also PHB2]. If you've gone ahead and picked up [Quick Draw], then [Throw Anything] from CW can let you chuck your ranseur at opponents that it can't reach, and still draw your greatsword and start cleaving away. Or vice-versa. On an aside to my earlier post, I thought that the wording of the [Short Haft] allowed you to swap between using the polearm as a reach weapon or against adjacent foes as a free action [like the spiked chain]. Perhaps I'm being a bit too loose in my reading of the text [not an improbability - I do everything that I can to pull one over on my DM, and I expect no less from my players when I run games].:evillaugh Bear in mind, none of these are very well thought out, so I'm sure that a lot of those ideas are less-than-optimal. I'm writing this after being up for about 28 hours. Things go a little wonky in the ole' brain box after a while.:looloo:
Steidas 07-29-07, 11:53 AM	Well, you might need the extra sleep. You can only make the normal 1 AoO after/during the Whirlwind attack so basically you won't be able to use it very well.
BrutishCelt 07-31-07, 12:27 AM	Well, I'm back after a nice long nap. I think that what I was driving at with the [Combat Reflexes] was not to be used in conjunction with [Whirlwind Attack], but simply to take advantage of the massive threatened area that you can cover with the polearm. Whirlwind isn't really that useful unless you're surrounded by a horde of baddies [making it a great feat for war campaigns]. Here's a new thought, though. Do small creatures still reap the benefit of reach weapons? If so, then two [or more] small creatures could add [Swarmfighting] to the list, allowing a half dozen creatues with reach [and probably high Dex modifiers] to all occupy the same square and unleash a half dozen whirlwinds on the horde pressing down on them. That'd show them damned gnomes not to mess with the kobolds. Lorea, pothoc terunt! Ah well, just an idle thought to throw the thread off-topic.