Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Label 12-02-07, 03:21 AM	So... When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. As a melee attack, you may attempt to disarm your opponent. If the character has Improved Disarm and the appropriate feats... Is it possible to "Whirlwind Disarm" ? If yes, good (I then assume its feasible with Trip attack too). If no, why not?
Egres 12-02-07, 03:57 AM	If the character has Improved Disarm and the appropriate feats... Is it possible to "Whirlwind Disarm" ? It's possibile even without the Imp disarm feat.
Hsien 12-02-07, 10:43 AM	No, the do not combine with each other. Whirlwind: give up your regular attacks to make one attack against each... Disarm/Trip: replace a regular attack to instead make a melee touch attack... Therefore: If you give up your all regular attacks to make a Whirlwind attack, you have no regular attacks left to trade in for disarm/trip or other "special" attacks.
Frozen Yakman 12-02-07, 10:52 AM	You can disarm or trip with Whirlwind Attack. Note that you wouldn't be able to take advantage of the extra attack granted by Improved Trip in 3.5 but you can in 3e.
kuonji 12-02-07, 10:58 AM	No, the do not combine with each other. Whirlwind: give up your regular attacks to make one attack against each... Disarm/Trip: replace a regular attack to instead make a melee touch attack... Therefore: If you give up your all regular attacks to make a Whirlwind attack, you have no regular attacks left to trade in for disarm/trip or other "special" attacks. This is incorrect. You can infact WW disarm. Whirlwind Attack When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities. Disarm As a melee attack, you may attempt to disarm your opponent. If you do so with a weapon, you knock the opponent’s weapon out of his hands and to the ground. If you attempt the disarm while unarmed, you end up with the weapon in your hand.
Hsien 12-02-07, 11:27 AM	I'm convinced, thinking of classic mass trips seen in Kung Fu movies, but after checking out the SRD there are still two concerns When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities. ~Would not get the +4 to the checks for Improved feat versions, Marshal Aura (Art of War) or most other things besides high stats that would make that attempt appealing/feasible. ~ Whirlwind indicates "any bonus" and not just a "to hit" bonus so that could be interpreted that the character does not benefit from the Imprv versions removal of the AoO's. That's probably not a very good trade off.
kuonji 12-02-07, 11:30 AM	I'm convinced, thinking of classic mass trips seen in Kung Fu movies, but after checking out the SRD there are still two concerns ~Would not get the +4 to the checks for Improved feat versions, Marshal Aura (Art of War) or most other things besides high stats that would make that attempt appealing/feasible. ~ Whirlwind indicates "any bonus" and not just a "to hit" bonus so that could be interpreted that the character does not benefit from the Imprv versions removal of the AoO's. That's probably not a very good trade off. It's not any bonuses and extra attacks it's any bonus attacks or any extra attacks.
Hsien 12-02-07, 11:57 AM	That's why I said it was a concern, as I couldn't find a Sage/FAQ reference to show one way or the other. It seems very redundant for them to be saying ~any bonus attacks or extra attacks~ but then RAW vs RAI is often an issue. Whereas any bonus or extra attacks still makes sense, translated to ~any bonus benefits or extra attacks~ as those two things are often considered together but as two distinct parts to be addressed. Whirlwind attack...roll dice only once and compare to all opponents? If bonus = attack, then the Whirlwind could benefit from a Truestrike spell ( just first thing that occurred to me ), whereas if bonus = bonus then it would not. :thinks:
kuonji 12-02-07, 12:16 PM	That's why I said it was a concern, as I couldn't find a Sage/FAQ reference to show one way or the other. It seems very redundant for them to be saying ~any bonus attacks or extra attacks~ but then RAW vs RAI is often an issue. Whereas any bonus or extra attacks still makes sense, translated to ~any bonus benefits or extra attacks~ as those two things are often considered together but as two distinct parts to be addressed. Whirlwind attack...roll dice only once and compare to all opponents? If bonus = attack, then the Whirlwind could benefit from a Truestrike spell ( just first thing that occurred to me ), whereas if bonus = bonus then it would not. :thinks: What? First off, true strike can benefit WW, but it would only apply to the first attack roll. Second, you make a melee attack against every foe you can reach...each attack requires an attack roll, you do not make 1 roll for all the attacks. Next, there's no "translation" to be made. If you strip away the bonuses it makes no sense. So you don't get +4 from Imp Disarm...does that then mean you also provoke AoO's as if you didn't have Imp Disarm? Do I lose my size bonus if I'm larger then my opponent and how does that make sense? What about the bonus for using a two handed weapon, that suddenly goes away as well? No, no, no, you simply do not gain additional attacks from other abilities, you get all your normal attack bonuses.
Hsien 12-02-07, 12:53 PM	That's part of the cocern for why those special attacks and WW don't mesh real depending on how it's read. The AoO due to removal of the Impv feat bonus was part of the concern. The others ( large size/2-handed wpn ) mentioned are not from feats, spells or abilities and would not be affected. If no translation is needed, then bonus = bonus When translating it to bonus = bonus attacks Unfortunatly due to overall writing in books, I'd say both are potentially valid. Trip, I'm switching back to No....because it's a touch attack. WW + Disarm = Ok, WW & Disarm use melee attack WW + Sunder = Ok, WW & Sunder use melee attack WW + Grapple = Ok, WW & Grapple use melee attack...Group HUG!!!! WW + Trip = Not OK; since WW = melee attack and Trip = melee touch attack
Frozen Yakman 12-02-07, 01:05 PM	WWA mentions both bonus and extra attacks because they are two different things: Extra Attacks = Attacks you normally get automatically such as from high BAB, fighting with two weapons, or striking with one or more natural weapons Bonus Attacks = Attacks that require some special action to do such as taking a feat (like Cleave, Improved Trip, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, etc), having a spell cast on you (like Haste), or possessing an item (like a Weapon with the Speed enhancement). Both are forbidden in 3.5 but not 3e where only extra attacks are removed.
Hsien 12-02-07, 01:27 PM	:surrender
Label 12-02-07, 05:03 PM	Nice, exactly the kind of "debate" I was expecting. :) So in conclusion, it is possible to Whirlwind Disarm, and Whirlwind Trip? Great. Thanks guys.
Label 12-02-07, 05:21 PM	Thinking of it... can we Whirlwind Sunder too?
Frozen Yakman 12-02-07, 07:09 PM	Yes, you can Whirlwind Grapple too but you'll probably have to stop once you successfully start a grapple with somebody.
Tordak 12-03-07, 08:37 AM	Yes you can whirlwind sunder and whirlwind trip and whirlwind disarm. I'm not so sure about grapple because, even if it starts with a melee touch attack, it does not seem to take the place of any melee attack you make unlike the other 3 (which all stated something like 'As a melee attack...' or 'you can...as a melee attack).
jaelis 12-03-07, 09:05 AM	You could even sunder, disarm, trip, and make normal attacks, all in the same whirlwind. (Against different opponents, of course.)
Frozen Yakman 12-03-07, 10:05 AM	Yes you can whirlwind sunder and whirlwind trip and whirlwind disarm. I'm not so sure about grapple because, even if it starts with a melee touch attack, it does not seem to take the place of any melee attack you make unlike the other 3 (which all stated something like 'As a melee attack...' or 'you can...as a melee attack). I'd have to recheck grapple to make sure, but you could definitely start one with the feat that allows you to start one with a regular unarmed strike.
Jovknee 12-03-07, 05:47 PM	How can you WW grapple? When grappling you are required to move into the opponents space are you not? If that is the case how can you move into the 8 squares all around you?
Frozen Yakman 12-03-07, 06:01 PM	Well obviously once you successfully start the grapple the Whirlwind would then have to stop.
jaelis 12-03-07, 08:13 PM	A big creature with Improved Grab, taking the -20 penalty on grapple checks, might be able to do it.