Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lankaster 10-25-07, 06:45 AM	I was wondering if a fighter possessing the Whirlwind Attack and Improved Sunder feats could combine them in an attempt to sunder the weapons of all his foes that are adjacent to him. Is this possible, even as a full-round action?
Tordak 10-25-07, 09:00 AM	According to the rule, you loose any bonus or extra attacks form feats when making a whirlwind attack. I believe that means 'bonus attacks and extra attacks', such as those granted by cleave or sweeping strikes (War Mind, XPH), or the haste spell for exemple. Nothing in this feat description or in the sunder special attack description prevents you from doing this, and it would definitly be an extremely impressive move, adding a lot of flavor to the fight (are you planing to use this against an Hydra? just curious). It's a pretty cool image. However, I'm not sure you can have the kind of precision sunder would logically require when attacking with whirlwind attack; you should be aiming at a weapon, which should be moving around a lot unless your a videogame character, and whirlwind is more of a swinging around thing I believe. But the rule doesn't prevent it and it's such a cool move I don't think I'd prevent it either.
runestar 10-25-07, 09:03 AM	You get to make one attack against each foe within reach. This attack can be any attack action, such as trip, sunder, disarm etc. So yes, you are good to go.:)
InkBlot 10-25-07, 09:04 AM	Whirlwind isn't just swinging around in a circle like a top. That doesn't work with piercing weapons, like a rapier. It can also darting back and forth between your foes, quickly twisting around to stab each one. Anyway, yes, you can absolutely do this. You can always replace a normal attack with a sunder, disarm, trip, et cetera. If there's an exception to the rule then it will be clearly stated. Whirlwind attack states no exception.
Eerongal 10-25-07, 09:05 AM	RAW, there is nothing stopping you from sundering, tripping, or disarming from a whirlwind attack. Although the idea may seem kinda weird, it's perfectly viable.
Tordak 10-25-07, 09:22 AM	Whirlwind isn't just swinging around in a circle like a top. That doesn't work with piercing weapons, like a rapier. It can also darting back and forth between your foes, quickly twisting around to stab each one. Anyway, yes, you can absolutely do this. You can always replace a normal attack with a sunder, disarm, trip, et cetera. If there's an exception to the rule then it will be clearly stated. Whirlwind attack states no exception. I know you're right, but it just gets crazy when you take a huge creature and give it whirlwind attack. It covers an area of 68 squares!!! If it's full of smaller creature, you get to make 68 attacks, all that in 6 seconds!!! But then I guess that's why it's called whirlwind attack :)
runestar 10-25-07, 10:01 AM	What is even crazier is if it has lvs in warhulk, which gives it the ability to make the equivalent of a whirlwind attack as an attack action. So it could first perform a normal whirlwind attack, then substitute each attack with another whirlwind. So if it can threaten 10 foes, that is 10 whirlwind attacks each round...:cool:
Merestil Haye 10-25-07, 10:10 AM	What is even crazier is if it has lvs in warhulk, which gives it the ability to make the equivalent of a whirlwind attack as an attack action. So it could first perform a normal whirlwind attack, then substitute each attack with another whirlwind. So if it can threaten 10 foes, that is 10 whirlwind attacks each round...:cool:Absolutely not. A full attack action does not grant you a number of attack actions. It just grants you multiple attacks taken as part of the one full-round action. Since you do not get multiple standard actions with one full round action, you cannot do what you suggest.
runestar 10-25-07, 10:19 AM	Absolutely not. A full attack action does not grant you a number of attack actions. It just grants you multiple attacks taken as part of the one full-round action. Since you do not get multiple standard actions with one full round action, you cannot do what you suggest. Ah, but it does, but it does.....;) Go here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030914a) and read the warhulk prc entry. Note this clause... Mighty Swing (Ex): Starting at 4th level, the war hulk can make mighty swings. A mighty swing is like a great swing except that it is an attack action rather than a full-round action. Thus, the war hulk can move and make a mighty swing or (if he can make multiple attacks) make multiple mighty swings in a single round. and Massive Swing (Ex): At 10th level, the war hulk can lash out all around himself. Massive swing works like mighty swing except that it is not limited to three squares. The war hulk's swing affects all squares he threatens that have a line of effect between them. A fighter using whirlwind against 10 foes within reach effectively gets to make 10 attacks. If each attack can be swapped out for an attack action like sunder or trip, I see no reason why it cannot be swapped out for massive/mighty swing...:D
Eerongal 10-25-07, 10:34 AM	Ah, but it does, but it does.....;) Go here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030914a) and read the warhulk prc entry. Note this clause... and A fighter using whirlwind against 10 foes within reach effectively gets to make 10 attacks. If each attack can be swapped out for an attack action like sunder or trip, I see no reason why it cannot be swapped out for massive/mighty swing...:D yeah, warhulk essentially gets whirlwind as an attack action. And you have to be large to take it. However, it will have a low number of attacks, because it gets no BAB progression at all.
Merestil Haye 10-25-07, 11:16 AM	Ah, but it does, but it does.....;) Go here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030914a) and read the warhulk prc entry.Thanks. :) I'll concede that the Hulk can make one Mighty Swing against each creature and its neighbours. But only the first of these can be a special attack type. That is, he can only attempt to sunder one weapon per Mighty Swing. The other creatures are affected by a regular attack (as per the text of Great Swing). Remind me not to let that class into my campaigns please.
Eerongal 10-25-07, 11:20 AM	yeah, warhulk is...crazy. A friend of mine put it best "Not for the PCs, but makes GREAT villans"
Tordak 10-25-07, 11:35 AM	A fighter using whirlwind against 10 foes within reach effectively gets to make 10 attacks. If each attack can be swapped out for an attack action like sunder or trip, I see no reason why it cannot be swapped out for massive/mighty swing...:D I'm afraid not. As it is stated in the feats description, When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities. Whirlwind attack replaces your regular attack action by a very specific type of attack action, that is 1 attack agaisnt each opponents within reach. You don't get to make additional attack based on your BAB, you don't get any extra attacks, and you attack opponents, not adjacent square. I don't think war hulk would benefit much from whirlwind seeing how they already attack every threaten square, often more than once a round (they don't get a very high attack bonus though). Plus they do get to cleave with mighty swing, wherein they don't with whirlwind attack. I bet there's a faq/ask wizard on this already.
ToastedAmphibian 10-25-07, 05:01 PM	They also dont need to. Their is a weapon enchancment in the Mic I belive, that gives anyone holding the weapon proficency with it, and gives the BAB of a cleric of their character level while weilding it. Spiked chain anyone? Then they just need improved trip, and they are set :} Ok, ill make a trip attack at my highest BAB bonus. It effects everyone in my reach. Now i get a free attack aginst everyone who didnt stay on their feet (Pretty much everyone) Oh ya, and each of thoes attacks hits everyone in my reach. 10 oppoents, 9 fall down. All 10 get hit 9 times. And that was only his first itterative.
runestar 10-26-07, 03:04 AM	Half ogre cleric7/warhulk10 with practiced spellcaster/misc caster lv boosting eq. DMM: persist divine power and divine favour. Now you have bab+17...:D Whirlwind attack replaces your regular attack action by a very specific type of attack action, that is 1 attack agaisnt each opponents within reach. You don't get to make additional attack based on your BAB, you don't get any extra attacks, and you attack opponents, not adjacent square. Not once have I ever referred to bab. Whirlwind attack lets you make 1 attack against each foe within reach. This means that if you threaten 10 foes, you get to make 10 attacks, each of which can be swapped out for any other attack action. I see no reason why there is any limitation - you can trip (an attack action), so you can mighty swing as well. So a scenario may go something like this... I am surrounded by 10 goblins (assume each has a ton of hp). I use whirlwind attack. I make my first attack roll against 1 of the goblins, then swap out that attack for mighty swing, which allows me to attack everyone within reach. I then repeat for the other 9 attacks, 1 for each of the other 9 goblins. Something wrong with my reasoning? Note that I am not suggesting that you use this in gameplay, just pointing out that it is possible as per the rules as written.:)
Eerongal 10-26-07, 07:47 AM	Half ogre cleric7/warhulk10 with practiced spellcaster/misc caster lv boosting eq. DMM: persist divine power and divine favour. Now you have bab+17...:D Throw on some Barb levels with the lions totem to get pounce and rage, get a spiked chain. :P
Tordak 10-26-07, 09:11 AM	My point Runestar is that Massive Swing is an attack action, but you don't have your 'attack action' per say. You loose your regular attacks in favor of a specific kind of attack, a full round action that enables you to make one melee attack agains each creature within reach. With massive swing you take an attack action an make massive swing instead, but you don't have attack action anymore, at least not in regular term, you have melee attack, one against each oppenent within reach. A melee attack is an attack action, but an attack action is not necessairly a melee attack, I mean attack action is a more general action than melee attack, kind of like the relationship between standard action and attack action. Now Sunder and disarm can replace a melee attack (as stated explicitly in their description), but I'm not sure, altough it is an attack made in melee, massive swing can. I mean it replaces a melee attack, but then it's not a melee attack anymore, it's a massive swing. That's the reason I see for not being allowed to do that. As for BAB, you're right, you didn't mention it, I did. I meant to point out that you give up any other type of attack, any extra attack from other source, be it high BAB or feats or abilities. I know you only need one roll for massive swing but it is like extra attack, and I think that's what extra attack might means in that case, you attack more than one opponent, even in one swing, but this last part is mostly interpretation, not rule as written I conceed. I guess it depends the way you (not just you, anyone I mean) read and understand the rule. I'm definetly not saying you're wrong about what is written, and this is the way I understand 'give up your regular attacks'. When it come to interpretation of intentions only the person who wrote it really knows what was meant, and since my writters work on different projects I guess they can sometimes miss things we players and DM pick on. You can never really tell when it comes to intention if your right or wrong. Form what is written I think we can come to both conclusion. It is a the very least an ambiguous situtation. However I stick to the fact that you give up your regular attack to make one melee attack against every opponent within reach doesn't mean you get a number of attack action = number of opponenets within reach, whirlwind attack is your attack action. I think that's the rule as written, but this could once again only be my interpretation.
Merestil Haye 10-26-07, 09:30 AM	My point Runestar is that Massive Swing is an attack action (snip the rest).You go astray here, ungfortunately. Massive Swing works like Mighty Swing. Mighty Swing is not an attack action but a special attack - just as Sunder, Trip, Disarm and Grapple are. Those special attacks can replace any attack, whether gained from an attack action, a full attack action or even an attack made as "not an action" - sometimes known as an Attack of Opportunity. Mighty Swing is explicit that multiple mighty swings can be made in the same round. Mighty Swing therefore cannot be an attack action. Thus Massive Swings can replace any and all of the attacks made as part of the full-round action taken to make the whirlwind attack.
Tordak 10-26-07, 09:38 AM	You go astray here, ungfortunately. Massive Swing works like Mighty Swing. Mighty Swing is not an attack action .... From the link provided by runestar Mighty Swing (Ex): Starting at 4th level, the war hulk can make mighty swings. A mighty swing is like a great swing except that it is an attack action rather than a full-round action. Thus, the war hulk can move and make a mighty swing or (if he can make multiple attacks) make multiple mighty swings in a single round. You can make multiple mighty swing in a round cause you can take multiple attack action (if your BAB is high enough), but you cannot make multiple attack action in a round where you use whirlwind attack.
runestar 10-26-07, 10:05 AM	You can make multiple mighty swing in a round cause you can take multiple attack action (if your BAB is high enough), but you cannot make multiple attack action in a round where you use whirlwind attack. So you are saying that you cannot use whirlwind attack to mass-trip everyone around you either?
Tordak 10-26-07, 10:16 AM	So you are saying that you cannot use whirlwind attack to mass-trip everyone around you either? Well from what I read on trip attack it says you can make trip as an unarmed melee attack, so I'd say you can use it with whirlwind since it's simply a melee attack. Altough it cause the same problem as the 68 attacks in 6 second in term of real world logic (tripping opponent requires to make strengh check against everyone of them), it does not seem to be prohibited. I find it weird though that you can take time to 'wrestle' down like 8 guys in 6 seconds (I think trip attempt is much like Judo, espacially if you have improved trip, and now don't ask me if you get your extra attack from improved trip because I'm stomped...:( ) You also run the risk of being trip in mid round, I'd say this stymies your whirlwind but that's open to discution.
Tordak 10-26-07, 11:04 AM	Then after reading improved trip, you get to make your attack on prone foe because you get to attack as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt. Whirlwind-trip could be a pretty cool move, I guess I just have to imagine you trip people with simple kicks on the shin or sweep at their ankles, something quicker then my original 'wrestling-down-judo-style' improved trip.:)
Merestil Haye 10-26-07, 11:35 AM	You can make multiple mighty swing in a round cause you can take multiple attack action (if your BAB is high enough)You see, this is wrong. A full-attack action to take multiple attacks from high BAB does not give you multiple attack actions. It is one full round action that gives you multiple attacks. Each and every attack can be replaced by a special attack, and the Mighty Swing is such a special attack. The reference to "attack action" in the text of Mighty Swing is not compatible with the primary texts on combat, and must therefore be discarded. If the text specifically amended or clarified the PHB you would be right - but it does not. So it cannot overrule the PHB.
Captain_Kobold 10-26-07, 11:39 AM	No. If you used Whirlwind attack to trip you would not get to make the extra attack against a tripped foe granted by the Improved trip feat. The whirlwind attack Feat specifically states that you give up all bonus or extra attacks granted by feats spells or abilities.
Tordak 10-26-07, 12:01 PM	No. If you used Whirlwind attack to trip you would not get to make the extra attack against a tripped foe granted by the Improved trip feat. The whirlwind attack Feat specifically states that you give up all bonus or extra attacks granted by feats spells or abilities. I agree, but then again the improved trip states that you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt. So the question is is it really an extra attack. I'm not to sure myself, does seem like it's not an 'extra' attack from the RAW, does seem like it is from the simple common sense, so I'm not sure at all.
Eerongal 10-26-07, 12:05 PM	I agree, but then again the improved trip states that you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt. So the question is is it really an extra attack. I'm not to sure myself, does seem like it's not an 'extra' attack from the RAW, does seem like it is from the simple common sense, so I'm not sure at all. from my perspective, it's clearly not an extra attack, because other things such as haste, cleave, TWF, etc specfically state it's an extra attack, improved trip however does not. However, now we have to worry about the bonus part of it. Is this attack a bonus attack or is it of an unspecified type? Depending on how you interpret that, there's how you rule on it.
Tordak 10-26-07, 01:56 PM	You see, this is wrong. A full-attack action to take multiple attacks from high BAB does not give you multiple attack actions. It is one full round action that gives you multiple attacks. Each and every attack can be replaced by a special attack, and the Mighty Swing is such a special attack. The reference to "attack action" in the text of Mighty Swing is not compatible with the primary texts on combat, and must therefore be discarded. If the text specifically amended or clarified the PHB you would be right - but it does not. So it cannot overrule the PHB. Attack action are melee, ranged, unarmed attack. A full attack is a full round action that let you take a number additional attack action based on your BAB. With a +11 BAB, you could attack a foe with a sword, kill the foe, drop the sword, quick draw 2 daggers and and throw each of them at a distant foe, or attack once with a sword, kick someone else and shot with a held hand crossbow. Those are attack actions, as described in the PHB. When you make a whirlwind attack, you get melee attack, and only one directed at each opponents within reach. That's the difference between the two, in a full round you get generic attack actions, in a whirlwind you get very specific attack actions (namely melee attack). Furthermore, in a full attack action you don't have to designated targets ahead of time, and you can make 1 5-foot step between any 2 attacks (or before or after if you want). In a whirlwind attack, you don't get to take 5-foot step between attacks and the target are desingnated ahead of time, for you. You don't get any flexibility when it comes to targets and area of whirlwind attack. The attacks in a full round full attack action can be replaced by specific abilities, like massive (or mighty) swing, sweeping strikes (again XPH, works pretty much the same way), any trip/sunder/disarm attempt, any other special abilities. The attack in a whirlwind attack do not get that kind of treatment, they don't get to be replace, you don't get to choose; your are given regular melee attack agaisnt everyone that qualifies, and that's it, melee attack. Trip, sunder and disarm can replace any melee attack, that's why it works.
Merestil Haye 10-26-07, 05:54 PM	I agree, but then again the improved trip states that you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt. So the question is is it really an extra attack. I'm not to sure myself, does seem like it's not an 'extra' attack from the RAW, does seem like it is from the simple common sense, so I'm not sure at all.It really is an extra attack. The designers clarified in the FAQ that the wording is used to show what bonus you use for the extra attack. It does not somehow mystically reverse time so that you haven't used your attack - because if you had the enemy wouldn't be on the floor, would he? The FAQ quote :Suppose a character with the Improved Trip feat uses the Bluff skill to successfully feint in combat and uses his next melee attack to trip the duped opponent. It seems clear that the character ignores that opponent’s Dexterity bonus to Armor Class for the touch attack to initiate the trip. Assuming that the trip attempt is successful, Improved Trip provides an additional attack as if the character hadn’t used her attack for the trip attempt. Does this mean that the character continues to ignore the tripped opponent’s Dexterity bonus to Armor Class for the additional attack granted by Improved Trip feat? How do other “next attack only” effects (like the true strike spell) work with the Improved Trip feat? In each case, the initial attack in trip attempt is the “next attack,” not the extra attack that you get from the Improved Trip feat. That is, if you’ve made a successful feint, your foe is denied any Dexterity bonus to Armor Class when you make the initial melee touch attack to start your trip attempt, but not when you attack him after a successful trip. Likewise, if you use the true strike spell, the +20 attack bonus applies to the touch attack, not to the free attack. The Improved Trip feat description says that you get an extra attack after a successful trip attempt “as though you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.” That, however, is just a shorthand way of explaining what part of your normal attack routine you use for the extra attack; it’s not meant to imply that you enter some kind of strange time warp when you make trip attacks.You get no follow-up attack from Improved Trip in a Whirlwind Attack.
Tordak 10-27-07, 05:41 PM	Sounds fair to me. It clarify the extra/bonus attack of the improved trip feat and it's possible interaction with whirlwind attack (and possible other similar abilities).
Operation_Shoestring 10-27-07, 06:28 PM	Attack =/= attack action. An attack action is a specific type of STANDARD ACTION. Now unless you are going to argue that Iterative attacks and Whirlwind attacks give you multiple standard actions per turn, that warhulk trick does not work. This has been hashed out multiple times with other tricks.
runestar 10-27-07, 09:39 PM	Attack =/= attack action. An attack action is a specific type of STANDARD ACTION. Where does it say that an attack action is a standard action? An attack action is so termed exactly because it can take the place of your normal attack. Now unless you are going to argue that Iterative attacks and Whirlwind attacks give you multiple standard actions per turn, that warhulk trick does not work. I won't, because I obviously don't interpret it that way.;)
Merestil Haye 10-28-07, 11:06 AM	Attack =/= attack action. An attack action is a specific type of STANDARD ACTION.Agreed. Now unless you are going to argue that Iterative attacks and Whirlwind attacks give you multiple standard actions per turn, that warhulk trick does not work.Not agreed. My argument is that the Warhulk trick does not replace the attack action. It replaces an attack. The use of the term "attack action" in the Warhulk ability description is an error. Nowhere in the PHB does it assert that taking the full attack action gives you multiple standard actions. The PHB is the primary text on combat. Therefore splatbooks that contradict the PHB on combat are assumed to be wrong, unless the splatbook is speciffically billed as revising or correcting erroneous combat rules. The Miniatures Handbook was not so billed. Since the Warhulk trick replaces an attack, it can replace any attack granted from any source. Including the multiple attacks granted by full attack actions (thinks for a moment about a Thri-Kreen Monk/Warlhulk with about 20 attacks per round), or Whirlwind Attack, or even an AoO (an attack which arises from no action at all). Whether this is absolutely overpowered or not is a separate issue. First you work out what the ability does, then you work out whether it needs to be adjusted. The Warhulk is specifically designed to be able to take on large numbers of relatively weak creatures and kick the stuffing out of them. It does that very very well. It's designed for mass combat. Let it shine there. The feat investment for Whirlwind is massive. Most Warhulks won't bother. They'll just go Great Cleave. (Remember, Cleave is a requirement for the PrC. Whirlwind would take ages to get).
Tordak 10-28-07, 04:33 PM	Here's how the 'swing' ability of the war hulk works. Great swing : In melee, as a full-round action, the war hulk can choose three squares adjacent to each other (he must threaten all of them). His attack applies to all creatures in those squares. Mighty swing : A mighty swing is like a great swing except that it is an attack action rather than a full-round action. It doesn't say it replaces your regular attack. All mighty swing does is reduce the time it takes to make great swing from a full round action to an attack action, the next 'quicker' category. An attack action is a special form of standard action that has an additional quality : you can make more than 1 attack action in a round if you have a high enough BAB, provide you use a full round to do so, giving up your move action. What it does in essence is widen the variety of attack action a war hulk can make as a standard action or as part of a full attack action, that is melee attacks ('armed' or unarmed), ranged attacks or mighty swing (or later on massive swing). A war hulk could throw a rock and then make a mighty swing if he had a BAB of +6, for exemple. Whirlwind attack gives you melee attack. Mighty or massive swing do not replace your melee attacks (or your attacks), it's a special form of melee attack that take about as much time as a regular melee attack or a ranged attack. Again, sunder,trip and disarm replace any melee attacks, as stated in their description.
runestar 10-28-07, 09:36 PM	Tordak, may I have a quote about your rule? By your ruling, this means that a dragon cannot make 6 trip or sunder attempts each round despite having 6 natural weapons (and consequently 6 attacks), but a fighter with bab+16 and wielding a greatsword can make up to 4 of them.
Merestil Haye 10-29-07, 06:14 AM	What it does in essence is widen the variety of attack action a war hulk can make as a standard action or as part of a full attack action, that is melee attacks ('armed' or unarmed), ranged attacks or mighty swing (or later on massive swing). A war hulk could throw a rock and then make a mighty swing if he had a BAB of +6, for exemple.Sorry, it says nothing about attack actions. The text of the Mighty Swing ability is :Thus, the character can move and make a mighty swing or (if he can make multiple attacks) make multiple mighty swings in a single round.Nothing about multiple attack actions, because actions in combat don't work the way you think. Our disagreement is this. You believe that taking the full attack action gives you multiple attack actions. It does no such thing. To prove your point, you need to find the text that says the full-attack action gives you one attack action per attack you can normally make. Please quote that rule. Book and page number or SRD link, either will do. If you can, I'll concede that you were correct. Since that would run entirely counter to the way 3.5 developed from 3.0, I don't expect you to find it.
Tordak 10-29-07, 08:45 AM	Tordak, may I have a quote about your rule? By your ruling, this means that a dragon cannot make 6 trip or sunder attempts each round despite having 6 natural weapons (and consequently 6 attacks), but a fighter with bab+16 and wielding a greatsword can make up to 4 of them. I've read my post back (and yes it was a pain, sorry about that) and I'm sorry if I misled you, but I don't understand how you come to that conclusion from what I've been saying. Any creature can take a full round action to attack with all its natural weapons (it's a full round action unless the creature as some special ability, like the hydra for example, which enable it make all natural attacks in a standard action or move and make a full attack action). Trip and sunder attempt replace any melee attacks (and ranged if you have the proper feats), so yes, it there 'natural' attack involve melee attack (that is usually the case), they get to make as many as 6 trip or sunder attempt. Remember also that creatures with natural weapons are considered 'armed'. http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/combat.htm Here's the SRD combat link, click on the sunder or trip to see what I mean. Also notice that sunder can only be attempted with slashing or bludgeoning weapons, while trip can be done with unarmed strikes or special tripping weapon (see individual weapon description). Sorry, it says nothing about attack actions. The text of the Mighty Swing ability is :Nothing about multiple attack actions, because actions in combat don't work the way you think. Mighty Swing (Ex): Starting at 4th level, the war hulk can make mighty swings. A mighty swing is like a great swing except that it is an attack action rather than a full-round action. Thus, the war hulk can move and make a mighty swing or (if he can make multiple attacks) make multiple mighty swings in a single round. I'm quite certain I see attack action (I don't think I put an 's' in my previous post of this quote did I?). Our disagreement is this. You believe that taking the full attack action gives you multiple attack actions. It does no such thing. To prove your point, you need to find the text that says the full-attack action gives you one attack action per attack you can normally make. Please quote that rule. Book and page number or SRD link, either will do. If you can, I'll concede that you were correct. Since that would run entirely counter to the way 3.5 developed from 3.0, I don't expect you to find it. There is no distinction between 'attack' and 'attack action'; there has never been. I certainly did not make such a distinction. Attack is an action described under the 'Actions in Combat' rubric of the SRD link I provided above. It's described under standard action. Every action, be it standard, move or full, as the word 'action' attached to it. It is not written next to it because it would be heavy, but what is to be red is that there's 'attack action', 'cast a spell action', 'move action' (not to be confused with move actionS, aka move equivalent action), 'Draw or Sheate an Item action', etc. It's not only 'attack = attack action' in the sense that 2+2=4, attack and attack action are one an the same thing; don't confuse attack action and standard action. Attack action refers to where you need to look in the book to find the description of attack in a combat situation; under Actions in Combat. Attack action is a standard action, but using a full round action you can take the full attack action which let you take more than one attack based on you BAB. That's an 'attack' action, attack is the name of the action. Not many other action get to be executed more than once in a round. You can only cast 1 spell per round no matter how high you BAB, spellcasting stat(s) or level is (not counting quicken spells). But you can take more than one attack, that is more than one 'attack action'. Don't confuse attack action with Standard actions, or don't think attack action is exclusive to standard action. In a round you can elect to make one attack or many attacks, which are all actions, depending if you choose to move to your full extend or concentrate on attacking an give up some mobility (meaning using a standard action ar a full attack action). Read the link I posted, you'll know what I mean. There's certainly a distinction between melee attack and attack. Melee attack is one type of attack; it is not uniquely equivalent to attack. That what I've been saying so far, melee attack and attack are different. I've only been quoting, stating and using rules found in SRD and/or the PHB and the rule of the miniature handbook (or the link provided by runestar). Never, anywhere so far, does it say mighty swing replaces any attacks; you've added that part from what you understand from the ability. Never is there a distinction, again as far as I know, between attack and attack action : where it says attack it is implied attack action (in combat text; of course if you read a monster entry you don't have to read 'special attacks' as 'special attack actions'). But I'm not sure why it is I who need to prove a point by quoting the correct rules, seeing how so far I have quoted rules without adding anything other than explanations to it. I sincerly hope you don't think of this as a personnal attack (attack 'action' that is :P ).
Pechvarry 10-29-07, 09:05 AM	An attack action is a specific type of STANDARD ACTION. I know nothing about the War Hulk, but the above is backwards. Trips, Sunders, Disarms, even Grapple attempts: they're all "attack actions." As such, they can be performed (or attempted, in the case of Grapple) multiple times by someone with a high enough BAB. Certainly, you've heard of people saving their low iterative for the touch attack to initiate a trip. This clearly shows that these are not types of Standard Actions, because you don't get multiple attacks with a Standard Action. That said, it's true that attacks are not attack actions. Indeed, attacking for HP damage is one use of an attack action. And Standard Actions can be used to make a single attack action which could be used to make a single attack. But Full Round Actions typically consist of multiple attack actions; not just multiple attacks. EDIT: Tordak's response popped up while I was typing. I think his interpretation is the more correct.
runestar 10-29-07, 09:44 AM	The mention of the hydra gives me an idea... 12-headed hydra warhulk - make 12 whirlwind attacks as a standard action...:cool:
Tordak 10-29-07, 09:51 AM	(correction : 12 massive swings) :eek:
runestar 10-29-07, 09:53 AM	I sincerly hope you don't think of this as a personnal attack (attack 'action' that is ). None at all. I always find it a pleasure to engage in civil and meaningful debate (which is more than can be said regarding the crap that goes on at the blizzard forums...:( ) It does seem that we are interpreting the same rule in different ways though. And with regards to the hydra warhulk, I wonder how massive swing might interact with the warmind's sweeping strike ability... Sweeping Strike (Ex) At 5th level, a war mind gains the ability to make great, sweeping swings with a melee weapon. On each melee attack a war mind makes, he can choose squares he threatens that are adjacent to each other, and his attacks apply to creatures in those two squares equally. A war mind can use this ability on any attack, even an attack of opportunity or a cleave attempt.
Tordak 10-29-07, 10:28 AM	I see your point. I would wonder about mighty swing since you choose 3 square and than I supposed you would choose 2 for each by mean of sweeping strikes (it work on each melee attack you make), for a total of 6. However, since it say's on any melee attack, I'm not sure how massive swing qualifies. It's an attack made in melee, that much is certain, but is it a 'melee attack' per say; I don't think it is. It's an ability in it's own. It seems sweeping strikes works almost the same way as migthy swing, so you'd have to choose 2 or 3 sqares, but each square you attack is not one melee attack each (you make one roll for all squares), so I don't think it would multiply. I'd say at most you get and extra square adjacent to one of the square you attack. Also I think once you get massive swing it couldn't work anymore since you already attack every threaten square, there would be no extra square to choose. You only swing once for all squares, so I don't think it works. Of course a War Mind Hydra could do 12 sweeping strikes, or 12 massive swings. What I really wonder is the meaning of each melee attack ; is it each attack made in melee or is it really each melee attack. Now I have wonder also if you can use sweeping strikes with whirlwind attack; it work with each melee attack and it's resolved in one roll, but does it count as 'bonus' attack I wonder.
Merestil Haye 10-30-07, 10:45 AM	There are two main points where we disagree. I contend that you are stating things not in the rules. You are in fact adding stuff in, and that is why I am asking you to show where in the rules it says what you claim. The first one is your contention that all attacks are attack actions, no matter how many you take in the round.There is no distinction between 'attack' and 'attack action'; there has never been. I certainly did not make such a distinction.But the rules do. An attack of opportunity is an attack. It is not, and can not be, any form of attack action. This is because you can only take attack actions in your turn, and creatures most frequently take AoOs in other creatures turns. This distinction has existed since 3.0 introduced the concept of "actions." The second is that the full round attack action gives you multiple attack actions. This is completely unsupported in the rules. The rules are firm. You get one standard action, one move action, one swift action and some number of free actions per turn. You can take a full-round action at the cost of your standard and move actions. The full-round action does not give you multiple attack actions though - just multiple attacks. But I'm not sure why it is I who need to prove a point by quoting the correct rules, seeing how so far I have quoted rules without adding anything other than explanations to it.You are the one who is claiming that the full attack actions give you multiple attack actions. Where does it spell that out? I sincerly hope you don't think of this as a personnal attack (attack 'action' that is :P ).We're good. ;)
Jovknee 10-30-07, 12:51 PM	I sure hope 4.0 clarifies these types of conflicts. :rolleyes:
Ace_of_time 10-30-07, 05:54 PM	WHIRLWIND ATTACK [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, base attack bonus +4. Benefit: When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities. Special: A fighter may select Whirlwind Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats. That covers any thing. You can't use anything with whirlwind. Even if you could use sunder, imp sunder is a feat which clearly says it the feat can't be use at all. That doesn't include the fact that you have to use a full round action to whirlwind. Table: Actions in Combat Standard Action Attack of Opportunity1 Attack (melee) No Attack (ranged) Yes Attack (unarmed) Yes Activate a magic item other than a potion or oil No Aid another Maybe2 Bull rush Yes Cast a spell (1 standard action casting time) Yes Concentrate to maintain an active spell No Dismiss a spell No Draw a hidden weapon (see Sleight of Hand skill) No Drink a potion or apply an oil Yes Escape a grapple No Feint No Light a torch with a tindertwig Yes Lower spell resistance No Make a dying friend stable (see Heal skill) Yes Overrun No Read a scroll Yes Ready (triggers a standard action) No Sunder a weapon (attack) Yes Sunder an object (attack) Maybe3 Total defense No Turn or rebuke undead No Use extraordinary ability No Use skill that takes 1 action Usually Use spell-like ability Yes Use supernatural ability No Move Action Attack of Opportunity1 Move Yes Control a frightened mount Yes Direct or redirect an active spell No Draw a weapon4 No Load a hand crossbow or light crossbow Yes Open or close a door No Mount a horse or dismount No Move a heavy object Yes Pick up an item Yes Sheathe a weapon Yes Stand up from prone Yes Ready or loose a shield4 No Retrieve a stored item Yes Full-Round Action Attack of Opportunity1 Full attack No Charge5 No Deliver coup de grace Yes Escape from a net Yes Extinguish flames No Light a torch Yes Load a heavy or repeating crossbow Yes Lock or unlock weapon in locked gauntlet Yes Prepare to throw splash weapon Yes Run Yes Use skill that takes 1 round Usually Use touch spell on up to six friends Yes Withdraw5 No Free Action Attack of Opportunity1 Cast a quickened spell No Cease concentration on a spell No Drop an item No Drop to the floor No Prepare spell components to cast a spell6 No Speak No No Action Attack of Opportunity1 Delay No 5-foot step No Action Type Varies Disarm7 Yes Grapple7 Yes Trip an opponent7 Yes Use feat8 Varies 1 Regardless of the action, if you move out of a threatened square, you usually provoke an attack of opportunity. This column indicates whether the action itself, not moving, provokes an attack of opportunity. 2 If you aid someone performing an action that would normally provoke an attack of opportunity, then the act of aiding another provokes an attack of opportunity as well. 3 If the object is being held, carried, or worn by a creature, yes. If not, no. 4 If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you can combine one of these actions with a regular move. If you have the Two- Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one. 5 May be taken as a standard action if you are limited to taking only a single action in a round. 6 Unless the component is an extremely large or awkward item. 7 These attack forms substitute for a melee attack, not an action. As melee attacks, they can be used once in an attack or charge action, one or more times in a full attack action, or even as an attack of opportunity. 8 The description of a feat defines its effect. Sunder is a standard action and you can't use a standard action and a full round action in the same round.
Merestil Haye 10-30-07, 06:36 PM	Sunder is a standard action and you can't use a standard action and a full round action in the same round.Sunder can substitute for any melee attack. It has its own line in the action table because Sundering provokes an AoO and for no other reason. It is quite permissible to replace any and all attacks gained from Whirlwind Attack with a Sunder. You just can't gain any follow-up attacks from the Combat Brute feat (like you can't get a follow-up attack from Improved Trip when you trip someone in a Whirlwind). Please read the FAQ on this subject.
Ace_of_time 10-30-07, 07:18 PM	I was wondering if a fighter possessing the Whirlwind Attack and Improved Sunder feats could combine them in an attempt to sunder the weapons of all his foes that are adjacent to him. Is this possible, even as a full-round action? I beleive this was what he asked which it doesn't allow in the feat. Haven't read you cheat on it yet and I'm playing tonight so give me some time. As to the fact, are you talking about the trip thing on the page befor or refering to a part in the FAQ that deals with whirl/sunder because I only saw a part saying that whirlwind doesn't stop you from having a feat just using it. Couldn't find anything else about whirlwind in there. If your saying he could still use sunder with out the feat wouldn't that risk losing the rest of the whirl on AoO or would that disrupt the sunder but not the whirl? Note: If you know the page on the FAQ that deals with whirl wind in this thread pplease post it so I can look at it. thanks.
Merestil Haye 10-30-07, 08:20 PM	I beleive this was what he asked which it doesn't allow in the feat. Have read you cheat on it yet and I'm playing tonight so give me some time.Yes, it is allowed. As I just said, the Sunder action is a special action that can replace any melee attack, provided that the weapon deals Bludgeoning or Slashing damage. It does not matter if the character has Improved Sunder or not, since the only difference the latter makes is that he won't provoke AoOs by so doing. The relevant line from the Sunder rule :Sunder You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding. If you’re attempting to sunder a weapon or shield, follow the steps outlined here. (Attacking held objects other than weapons or shields is covered below.)The Improved Sunder feat :Improved Sunder [General] Prerequisites Str 13, Power Attack. Benefit When you strike at an object held or carried by an opponent (such as a weapon or shield), you do not provoke an attack of opportunity. You also gain a +4 bonus on any attack roll made to attack an object held or carried by another character. Note that there is nothing about an extra attack conferred by the Improved Sunder feat. And the FAQ.Is sunder a special standard action or is it a melee attack variant? It has its own entry on the actions table, but the text describing it refers to it as a melee attack. Is sunder a melee attack only in the sense of hitting something with a melee weapon, or is sunder a true melee attack? Sunder is a special kind of melee attack. If it were a special standard action, its description would say so (as the descriptive text for the Manyshot feat says). If you make a full attack, and you have multiple attacks from a high base attack bonus, you can sunder more than once, or attack and sunder, or some other combination of attacking and sundering. Sunder does indeed get its own entry in Table 8–2: Actions in Combat in the Player’s Handbook. It needs one because unlike a regular melee attack, sunder provokes an attack of opportunity (although not if you have the Improved Sunder feat). You can also disarm, grapple, or trip as a melee attack (or attack of opportunity).This is quite clear. You can Sunder from any attack, even attacks which are not actions. You can certainly sunder from attacks made as part of the Whirlwind Attack.
Tordak 10-30-07, 09:58 PM	The first one is your contention that all attacks are attack actions, no matter how many you take in the round.But the rules do. There is no such thing as attack action in the sense of a particular action you can take that differs from an attack; there are only attacks. When you make an attack, you take the attack action. When you make 4 attacks in a round, you take the attack action 4 times, which mean you took attack actions. In a round where you cast a spell, you take the 'cast a spell' action, when you move you take the 'move' action. It's attack action because attack is the name of the action, you attack and it's and action. from SRD Making an Attack of Opportunity An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and you can only make one per round. You don’t have to make an attack of opportunity if you don’t want to. You don't get an 'attack but not an attack action', you get a melee attack, which is a specific form of attack. So it is an attack action, but not any attack action, a melee attack (unless you have a special ability or feat that allow you to use other form of 'action', like having the opportunity power (metapsionic feat))which mean you can only take a melee attack, not a ranged attack, not a massive swing. But it is an attack action, in the sense defined by the rules, even if not taken on your turn. There are plenty of action you don't take on your turn, like free action and immediate action. Now I would be hard press to find the part of the rules that says this because it will be written nowhere : attack is the attack action. That's why it's describe under Actions In Combat in the PHB and the SRD. If you can find the part of the rule text that makes the distinction between attack and attack action than I could agree with you. (SRD for references of what I said http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm) The only things you do that are not actions are things happening as part of another action and that you more or less need to do something, like emulating an alignement as part of a use magic device (example from the PHB 3.0) or using the skill Use magic device when activating is not an action but part of the activation (example in the PHB 3.5). As for sunder attack and whirlwind attack, we both agree it work. Whirlwind gives you a melee attack against every opponents within reach. Sunder can be made in place of any melee attack. So yes, you can make whirlwind sunder attack. Sunder attack replace any melee attack, including the one you get from attack of opportunity and the one you get from a charge (which are all melee attack).
Merestil Haye 10-31-07, 04:04 AM	You don't get an 'attack but not an attack action', you get a melee attack, which is a specific form of attack. So it is an attack action... (snip)When you make an Attack of Opportunity in another creature's turn, according to this, you are taking an attack action to do so. An attack action is a standard action. The only place the term is described is in the table of standard actions, therefore it is a standard action. You cannot take standard actions when it is not your turn. Therefore, according to you, you cannot take AoOs when it is not your turn. That is sufficient to show you are in error. I'm sorry, but we will have to agree to disagree. You're not going to persuade me, and it's evident by now that I have failed to persuade you. Now I would be hard press to find the part of the rules that says this because it will be written nowhere : attack is the attack action. That's why it's describe under Actions In Combat in the PHB and the SRD. If you can find the part of the rule text that makes the distinction between attack and attack action than I could agree with you. (SRD for references of what I said http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm) The only things you do that are not actions are things happening as part of another action and that you more or less need to do something, like emulating an alignement as part of a use magic device (example from the PHB 3.0) or using the skill Use magic device when activating is not an action but part of the activation (example in the PHB 3.5).You might want to consider this statement from the FAQ :Both of the example spells have a casting time of 1 standard action and an instantaneous duration. The caster uses the cast a spell action (a standard action), and makes all the ranged touch attacks the spell allows as part of that standard action (not as part of the attack or full attack action); making these attacks is not an action at all.(Bolding mine.) The example spells are Scorching Ray and Meteor Swarm. Note that the attacks are "not an action" even though you are making up to 4 with a single standard action. You might also note that a free action is something you can only take in your turn. Some things are categorised as being allowable outside your turn - speaking for example - but you cannot draw a weapon to take advantage of an AoO provoked by another creature during its turn, even if you have Quick Draw, because drawing a weapon is a free action and you cannot take actions outside your turn. If you cannot take free actions outside your turn, why do you think you can take standard actions outside your turn?
Tordak 10-31-07, 08:42 AM	When you make an Attack of Opportunity in another creature's turn, according to this, you are taking an attack action to do so. correct An attack action is a standard action. The only place the term is described is in the table of standard actions, therefore it is a standard action. Not correct. I mean, not entirely correct, something is missing, there's more to it. In the section of the PHB or the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#standardActions), you'll notice there is no attack action, only attack (this is the attack action). They don't talk about attack action under standard action, only attack. In the same section, if you read on, it also says if you have multiple attacks (whether from high BAB or natural weapons), you need to take a full attack as a full round action to make them. They don't make distinction between these attacks, aside from the time required to excute them (standard action vs full round action)and the fact you make more in one option. Beside, melee attack are only defined in the attack action, yet you can take them in the full round action 'full attack' (noticed it is not called full attack action even if it is the full attack action); if there was a distinction, they would have to redefine the attack you take under the full attack section. And you can also take them as an attack of opportunity. You cannot take standard actions when it is not your turn. ok Therefore, according to you, you cannot take AoOs when it is not your turn. That conclusion cannot be reached from what I said and what I added above. Attack action and standard action are not mutually exclusive. You might want to consider this statement from the FAQ :(Bolding mine.) The example spells are Scorching Ray and Meteor Swarm. Note that the attacks are "not an action" even though you are making up to 4 with a single standard action. I want to add something here. I might not have been very clear about the things you do that are not action. This is a perfect example. The attack you take are not action, they are part of the requirements for completing the casting of the spell. That is, they are given to you as part of the casting, like the touch attack for vampiric touch, and the like. The action you're taking is the 'casting as spell' standard (or swift if it's quicken) action, not the attack action. Plenty of spell give you actions that disrupt the regular dynamic action flow. But they're not action, just like a rogue using a wand of scorching ray has to make a skill check and attack roll, but those are not action per say, the action is using magic device. What I said is when you make an attack, you take the attack action, but if you make an attack with a spell, you take the cast a spell action. I agree it might not have been clear in what I said on my previous post. You might also note that a free action is something you can only take in your turn. Some things are categorised as being allowable outside your turn - speaking for example - but you cannot draw a weapon to take advantage of an AoO provoked by another creature during its turn, even if you have Quick Draw, because drawing a weapon is a free action and you cannot take actions outside your turn. You can take free action whenever you qualify, whether it's your turn or not. The ability specifies if it's a free action you only take on your turn or if it can only be taken on someone esle's turn, else it's free. As a counter example, if you have instantaneous rage (feat, CW), you can rage even when it's not your turn, as a free action. Now I'm not absolutely certain about the free action on your turn only, but I didn't read free action are only on your turn, only that speaking was an example of free action you can take when it's not your turn which does not automatically implie other free actions are only on your turn. If you cannot take free actions outside your turn, why do you think you can take standard actions outside your turn? I don't think you can take standard action when it's not your turn, altough a counter example could prove us wrong. I'm sorry, but we will have to agree to disagree. You're not going to persuade me, and it's evident by now that I have failed to persuade you. Don't be sorry, I agree with you, you're absolutly right. I guess we'll just have to go on with our life using the rules the way we see it. I don't think there's anything wrong with both our interpretation, it just leads to different results once in a while. I also agree with runestar, it's always fun to have those debates on forum with people who actually have something intelligent to say.
Ace_of_time 10-31-07, 11:53 PM	I am just saying that for the what the OP asked. You can't apply the feat to whirlwind. Not saying you could use sunder in whirlwind, just that he couldn't use the feat. The whirlwind feat says NO OTHER FEATS CAN BE USED WITH A WHRIL WIND ATTACK. From My stand point whirlwind all ready replaces your attacks and your saying that since imp sunder doesn't give a bonus or extra attack that it would apply to the sunder that you're replacing your already replaced attacks. Benefit: When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. AKA,replace, your full attack action with one attack on each with in reach. And you say that you can replace each attack that already replaced your full attack? One thing I'd ask is how are you sundering the person. whirlwind only gives extra attack on the enemy not items hold by a enemy.against each opponent within reach
Merestil Haye 11-01-07, 06:14 AM	I am just saying that for the what the OP asked. You can't apply the feat to whirlwind. Not saying you could use sunder in whirlwind, just that he couldn't use the feat. The whirlwind feat says NO OTHER FEATS CAN BE USED WITH A WHRIL WIND ATTACK.It says no such thing. And don't shout. Whirlwind Attack says :Benefit When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.That does not say you cannot use feats with Whirlwind Attack. It says you cannot gain any extra attacks. Not the same thing at all. From My stand point whirlwind all ready replaces your attacks and your saying that since imp sunder doesn't give a bonus or extra attack that it would apply to the sunder that you're replacing your already replaced attacks.Improved Sunder has exactly nothing to do with this. Sunder is a special action which can replace any melee attack. There is no use of feats required. Sunder has its own line on the table of actions for one and only one reason. It provokes an AoO wheras a regular melee attack does not. That's it. AKA,replace, your full attack action with one attack on each with in reach. And you say that you can replace each attack that already replaced your full attack?Does Whirlwind Attack give you attacks? Yes it does. Then you can replace them with Sunder, Trip, Disarm or Grapple actions (although the last would be a bit silly). One thing I'd ask is how are you sundering the person. whirlwind only gives extra attack on the enemy not items hold by a enemy.You are allowed to replace an attack on a creature with an attack on an object held by a creature. That is what Sundering is.
Tordak 11-01-07, 08:28 AM	We had our disagreement in the past:D , but I agree with Merestil Haye. You need to look at the wording of the feat and the sunder attack. Whirlwind When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. Sunder You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding. That is, when you make a melee attack you can choose to instead attack the opponent's weapon. Whether you take that attack as a standard action, as part of a full round action, as an attack of opportunity or even at the end of a charge, you can instead use it to make a sunder attempt. You can make sunder if : 1- You can make a melee attack; 2- The opponent is weilding a weapon. You give up your regular attack to make melee attacks with whirlwind, so you can still decide to attack the weapon or the 'person' holding it. As for the other part of whirlwind When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities. what needs to be understand here is 'bonus attacks or extra attack'. If you couldn't use any other feats or bonuses from feats, you would not get the bonuses from weapon focus and specialisation, you could not power attack, etc. Beside Sunder is not a feat, Improved sunder is. Sunder is only an attack option you have when electing to make a melee attack (sometimes with ranged attack if you have the appropriate feat, but that's beside the point and ranged attacks and whirlwind don't mix).
Ace_of_time 11-01-07, 12:18 PM	I already said he couldn't use the feat but could use the sunder. Just doesn't make sense to replace a replace attack. I also said it would be a DM's call for what he consider a bonus. They would have worded it that way if they meant bonus attacks. Other wise you would be able to use power attack during a whirlwind also. It is talking about any any benefits that have to do with attacks, To Me anyway.
Merestil Haye 11-01-07, 02:10 PM	I already said he could use the feat but could use the sunder. Just doesn't make sense to replace a replace attack. I also said it would be a DM's call for what he consider a bonus.This is your problem. When you evaluate a rules interaction, what you think is irrelevant. (And what I think, come to that). All that matters is what the words actually say. The rules say that Whirlwind Attack replaces the regular full-round attack with a single attack against each enemy within reach. The rules also say that any attack may be replaced with a Sunder. Since Whirlwind Attack lets you make attacks, the creature may replace the attack with a Sunder. Because there are no rules - anywhere - that say you cannot replace an attack with a Sunder if that attack was generated by replacing something else. What you think "makes sense" has no basis in the rules. That's a basis for a house rule, but it does not form any part of the rules texts which are our only common ground.
Ace_of_time 11-01-07, 04:27 PM	I have already said twice that you could sunder?:confused: :confused: