Post/Author/DateTime	Post
choant 06-20-07, 01:16 PM	What is the benefit to this? I am playing a core game as a druid, looking at the CO of druids they seem to love grapplers for wild shape but after looking at the rules I dont see why? Can someone shed some light on this for me?
ShinAkuma2 06-20-07, 01:24 PM	If your grapple check is a lot higher than your opponent's, you essentially remove his ability to do anything. For one, as soon as you pin him, he can't damage you, and he's not likely to escape, either. He can try to cast spells, but only with no somatic components, no verbal components (assuming you hold him quiet), and he would need any material components in hand already. In short, he would need a heavily metamagic'd spell prepped, and he'd need to make a decently tough Concentration check to do it. He's not likely to be able to resist you in any meaningful way. To summarize: If you can do things, and your opponent can't, you win.
Thiez 06-20-07, 01:28 PM	Grapple is a great way of saying 'I win.'. How? You use a touch attack to start it, that is, you don't need to hit a huge AC. You get a bonus for size (if you're druid with wildshape, this is quite relevant, combine with Animal Growth (or whatever it's called) or Enlarge Person, that kind of stuff). You deal damage equal to unarmed strike: This part sucks, but hey, some animals have improved damage on a succesful grapple check. Stuff you grapple can't move, it can't make an AoO, and it loses dex bonus to AC, meaning AC goes down, and the fun of sneak attack goes up. Grappled enemies cannot do most things unless they can beat your grapple check. They can cast a spell, but this requires a DC 20 + spell level concentration check (not that hard to make, I'm afraid). But they can't do that if you pin! Pin is great. Pin an opponent, and that opponent cannot do anything at all. The rest of the party will slaughter him. Hmmn just read the grapple rules and think of the possibilities.
Jackmojo 06-20-07, 01:42 PM	Another important consideration is that nearly all creatures and NPC's are either specialized for grappling or they aren't, and if they aren't, any grappling form you wildshape into will beat them quite easily. This ability to choose to fight creatures on something they are weak at is a huge part of the Druid's ability to win. Jack
RobbyPants 06-20-07, 03:27 PM	And to further extrapolate what ShinAkuma2 said, grappling becomes even more useful if you're in a party of several people fighting fewer opponents. Lets say there are four of you and two of them. You grapple one to cancel him out, and your three buddies gang up on the other guy! Once he's taken care of, then they can deal with the guy you've held in place for the last few rounds... It's not always a good solution, but it can be often. This is one of the reasons druids are so powerful. You can pick the best form for the current situation.
was_fired 06-20-07, 03:42 PM	Grappling is wonderful provided your bonus is a lot larger than your opponents. In a boss battle my party got into once where we were fighting an enemy that was completely out of our class (flying, ranged attack, DR our ranged attackers couldn't beat, and SR that often negated our magic) I was forced to dig into my warlock's bag of dirty tricks (we were level 3 or so at the time). So I moved over to our group's paladin, cast enlarge person on him, and told him to grapple our flying foe. He succeeded easily and in the next round pinned her (enlarge person grants a net +5 bonus on grapple checks). The rest of the battle consisted of the group's bard and rogue surrounding her and stabbing her until she died as she kept trying, and failing, to escape the pin. I apologized to the DM afterwards because I felt bad pulling out such a dirty trick to win a boss fight, but she was happy I did as she didn't see any other way for us to have won (she's still a new DM and this is her first campaign).
RobbyPants 06-20-07, 03:59 PM	I apologized to the DM afterwards because I felt bad pulling out such a dirty trick to win a boss fight, but she was happy I did as she didn't see any other way for us to have won (she's still a new DM and this is her first campaign). You did the right thing. You were having trouble fighting her in the conventional style. This seems like the only viable tactic, really. And I wouldn't call it a dirty trick; that's teamwork!
El_Pollo_Del_Mar 06-20-07, 04:10 PM	I also have a "Boss-made-easy Thanks to Grapple" story. Three level 1 characters (Monk, Paladin, Rouge) with a level 1 NPC (fighter) took on a higher level (3, I think) Ranger. The following is a round by round account of the battle: Round 1: Ranger wins Init, attacks NPC. NPC attacks Ranger and misses. Party Monk (with Improved Grapple as lvl 1 monk feat) grapples ranger and wins check to establish grapple. Party Paladin and Party Rouge defer actions. Round 2: Ranger attempts to break grapple, fails. NPC fails to hit Ranger. Monk pins Ranger. Paladin hogties Ranger. Fight over. The GM was rather worried that his Ranger would wipe the floors with our PCs. The look on his face when we tied up the Ranger and carried him away was priceless. -El Pollo
Ezurus 06-20-07, 04:23 PM	I also have a "Boss-made-easy Thanks to Grapple" story. Three level 1 characters (Monk, Paladin, Rouge) with a level 1 NPC (fighter) took on a higher level (3, I think) Ranger. The following is a round by round account of the battle: Round 1: Ranger wins Init, attacks NPC. NPC attacks Ranger and misses. Party Monk (with Improved Grapple as lvl 1 monk feat) grapples ranger and wins check to establish grapple. Party Paladin and Party Rouge defer actions. Round 2: Ranger attempts to break grapple, fails. NPC fails to hit Ranger. Monk pins Ranger. Paladin hogties Ranger. Fight over. The GM was rather worried that his Ranger would wipe the floors with our PCs. The look on his face when we tied up the Ranger and carried him away was priceless. -El Pollo Seņor Tunafish, I'm sure your group had the situation under control, but usually 1 minute is required to bind an enemy. PHB 86. The paladin could probably have aided another to make sure the enemy stayed pinned for the 10 rounds while the rogue (probably better at use rope) tied him up. It would probably have been easier to beat him unconscious and then tie him up. :)
choant 06-20-07, 05:48 PM	Basically then if I want to do damage then pick something damagey because grapple isnt a damage dealer its a "I remove you from combat" card. Thanks for the tips!
Nom 06-20-07, 06:18 PM	In a boss battle my party got into once where we were fighting an enemy that was completely out of our class (flying, ranged attack, DR our ranged attackers couldn't beat, and SR that often negated our magic)Erinyes, right? My party took one of them down in a similar way. Turned our specialist grappler gaseous, sent her up to the erinyes, and then dismissed the gaseous form spell and the grappler grabbed the erinyes and dragged her to earth. She promptly used her teleport to get away (which was OK, since the erinyes wasn't the main target).
Thiez 06-20-07, 06:26 PM	Erinyes, right? My party took one of them down in a similar way. Turned our specialist grappler gaseous, sent her up to the erinyes, and then dismissed the gaseous form spell and the grappler grabbed the erinyes and dragged her to earth. She promptly used her teleport to get away (which was OK, since the erinyes wasn't the main target). She could just have teleported back up in the air, and your efforts would have been in vain :(
El_Pollo_Del_Mar 06-21-07, 01:57 PM	Seņor Tunafish, I'm sure your group had the situation under control, but usually 1 minute is required to bind an enemy. PHB 86. The paladin could probably have aided another to make sure the enemy stayed pinned for the 10 rounds while the rogue (probably better at use rope) tied him up. It would probably have been easier to beat him unconscious and then tie him up. :) Eh. He's a new DM, and there was only one opponent. I also noticed the discrepency, but given the situation it wasn't really worth quabbling over. Especially when it went in our favor. Although in just about every battle since, I've found a way to grapple at least one enemy, and then once grappled, either attacked or caused unarmed damage via grapple check. Grappling is nice. -El Pollo
TheCobra 06-21-07, 03:29 PM	Grappling is great when you can do it, but freedom of movement eventually comes along and says no.
zelf_gale 06-21-07, 06:31 PM	Grappling is great when you can do it, but freedom of movement eventually comes along and says no. ...until Dispel Magic comes out and says yes. Seriously though, TheCobra that is a great one liner and if I had a signature, that would be in it.
Mentar 06-21-07, 07:12 PM	Grappling is about removing one foe from combat, but it can also be about damage. While pinning an opponent you can still damage an opponent, true you can't draw or use light weapons, but unarmed damage or natural attacks can still damage them while pinning them. It can also be used to disarm, if your target has a powerful weapon, wand, scrolls, whatever, pinning the opponent long enough to remove these things can make combat much easier.
was_fired 06-21-07, 07:33 PM	Erinyes, right? My party took one of them down in a similar way. Turned our specialist grappler gaseous, sent her up to the erinyes, and then dismissed the gaseous form spell and the grappler grabbed the erinyes and dragged her to earth. She promptly used her teleport to get away (which was OK, since the erinyes wasn't the main target). Nah, half fiend sorceresses who had a load of scrolls. The NPC was higher level than us so the SR was tough to beat and our only ranged fighter was a poorly made bard with a light crossbow (1d8 + 1 vs DR 5). He was missing, my luck always sucks so I managed to miss one touch attack and then blow SR before finally going for the enlarge person option. The group's wizard also was sucking with SR at the time and our rogue was built for TWF (if memory serves he might not even have had a light crossbow at the time, but given that he's a damn good min/maxer I find that hard to believe).
Psikerlord 06-21-07, 11:32 PM	Grappling is lethal to spell casters at low levels, particularly wizards (although yeah once 7th+, they tend to have dimdoor or teleport or similar - verbal only escape spells). In past games our cleric has cast silence on our monk, who then grapples the enemy wizard, to great effect.
choant 06-21-07, 11:34 PM	So wait... if I was a croc (good low level grappler) I could bite the grappled person every round if he was pinned? I see that being way better.
Mentar 06-21-07, 11:38 PM	Can a croc hold a pin without it's mouth? Maybe not. Can a croc deal damage while pinning a foe with it's mouth? Yes.
ShinAkuma2 06-22-07, 01:33 AM	So wait... if I was a croc (good low level grappler) I could bite the grappled person every round if he was pinned? I see that being way better. That depends. If you successfully used Improved Grab, then yeah. If you simply established a normal grapple, then you do unarmed strike damage, not bite damage. The thing is, Improved Grab only works on creatures smaller than you, with few exceptions (it'll say so in the monster description if there's a difference).
choant 06-22-07, 01:47 AM	Ah yes it does say improved grab, so that would only work on smaller creatures. Hmm... so looking at this maybe black bear is a way to go with a better grapple bonus, is it a full attack on a pinned enemy?
Johannixx 06-22-07, 02:08 AM	Our 3rd-level party managed to completely neutralize an enemy necromancer during the BBEG fight. The druid summoned a wolverine, which proceeded to grapple and destroy the necro while the rest of us were fighting through his legions of zombie minions. The necro never even got off a spell. It was hideous. However, grappling is like most other forms of combat in D&D: it's very powerful, until something comes along that ignores it. For example, in our current game, the DM has been very fond of grappling us to nerf the party's main melee combatants. So, combine a flaming greatsword, a spiked gauntlet of last resort, an 18 Strength, Weapon Specialization and Close Quarters Fighting, and suddenly the big critters just aren't as effective at grappling. Anything that grapples my character is most likely going to take a hit from that sword, and I deal a minimum of 14 points of damage per hit with it. CQF means every point of damage acts as a bonus towards my grapple checks to resist being grappled, and I get AoOs even against critters with Improved Grab or Improved Grapple. Not much gets ahold of my fighter/bard anymore unless he wants it to.
Leilond 06-22-07, 06:50 AM	Grappling is very strong, but easly escapable First of all, in the moment a wizard is in reach of a melee character the mistake is already done. No wizard with a little of brain (usually wizard have high int stat) will let the druid come so near without doing nothing Second. To cast a spell without somatic and material component it is required a plain DC 20 concentration check. Every wizard with a little of brain has ALWAYS a teleport spell prepared (only verbal component). If he has the slot the spell will be a "silent spell", so the wizard have not to move, nor to speak... he can cast the spell while pinned and impossibilitated to talk. It has only to concentrate (DC 20) and he will teleport away At the right level every smart wizard will have "freedom of movement" benefit in some way. There are so meny ways he can be blocked to ground, like black tentacles or nasty monks running at them, than "freedom of movement" is very very important Blur and mirror images help you to avoid the first "touch attack" Put an high level rogue near the wizard. The first who will try to grapple the wizard will start to take sneak attack after sneak attack Punt a frost giant fighter near the wizard. The first who till try to grapple the wizard will start to take blow after blow from a 3d6+13 (and more) greataxe If a character is enought smart to see how powerfull the grapple is, why the enemies aren't enought smart to understand it and defend them self? From what I read it always look like that the grapplers arrive to the target and simply win. The target never have the time to buff, to flee, to teleport, to fly away, to polimorf into whatever he want, to cast mirror images From what I read it always look like the target of the grapplers do not have minions on the road of the grappler
Vaelan 06-22-07, 11:24 AM	First of all, in the moment a wizard is in reach of a melee character the mistake is already done. No wizard with a little of brain (usually wizard have high int stat) will let the druid come so near without doing nothing You know what Druids and Rogues have in common? They both find it quite easy to sneak up on people who have neither Listen nor Spot as a class skill. Unless you're running Foresight, which is not available to the overwhelmingly vast majority of Wizards, your only possible defense is a Contingency and proper adjudication of Contingency, as written in the spell description, stops that from being a practical solution. Second. To cast a spell without somatic and material component it is required a plain DC 20 concentration check. Not when there is a Rogue with Mage Slayer and the Druid's animal companion flanking you. Every wizard with a little of brain has ALWAYS a teleport spell prepared (only verbal component). Always? Are we forgetting that Wizards have finite spells/day and responsibilities aside from staying out of grapples?
ShinAkuma2 06-22-07, 12:38 PM	Second. To cast a spell without somatic and material component it is required a plain DC 20 concentration check. Every wizard with a little of brain has ALWAYS a teleport spell prepared (only verbal component). If he has the slot the spell will be a "silent spell", so the wizard have not to move, nor to speak... he can cast the spell while pinned and impossibilitated to talk. It has only to concentrate (DC 20) and he will teleport away For one, it's 20 + spell level, not just 20. For two, while I'm sure most Wizards prep escape spells, I wouldn't bet that every Wizard is willing to blow a 6th level slot on a Silent Teleport every day, especially since not every Wizard is 11th level or higher. You have to think about tactics before everyone is epic level, too, you know.
BlackFiend 06-28-07, 04:47 PM	Where does it say that you can silence and eschew materials without a feat? Under concentration its a DC 20 check and says the following: "Grappling or pinned. (You can cast only spells without somatic components for which you have any required material component in hand.)"
Priest_of_Doom 06-28-07, 04:58 PM	Basically then if I want to do damage then pick something damagey because grapple isnt a damage dealer its a "I remove you from combat" card. Thanks for the tips! Actually, if you have natural attacks, you cam make them while you're grappling someone. So if you're a druid, shapechange into a bear and grapple someone, and then make your claw and bite attacks at a -4 penalty to your attack rolls. From the SRD: Attack Your Opponent You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks.
Leilond 06-28-07, 05:09 PM	Or if you're a monk, in wich case your "unarmed damage" is enought to be effective with the "damage your opponent" option
Monstar 06-28-07, 08:05 PM	Plus if you're a flying creature (or controling one) like a Dire Bat, Griffon, Dragon, Air Elemental, ECT. you can grapple an oponent and if you pin you can fly straight up at half your "straight up speed" (depends on manuverablity) and drop when ever you feel like it. Sometimes they will fall early, doing little falling damage, because they've won a grapple check and effectively jumped, but that's just a free AoO.
Nom 06-28-07, 11:33 PM	Note that many flying creatures cannot fly if they're carrying more than a light load (see DMG rules on unusual mounts), so "fly and drop" might not be an option.
Dark1ord 06-29-07, 07:24 AM	combine with Animal Growth (or whatever it's called) I just caught this... wild shape doesn't change your type - you're not an animal; no animal growth.
Thiez 06-29-07, 08:53 AM	I just caught this... wild shape doesn't change your type - you're not an animal; no animal growth. Sorry dear, it won't happen again ;) Enlarge person! :P
Dark1ord 06-29-07, 09:18 AM	Enlarge person! :P hm yeah well that would have to be *after* the wild shape, no? wild shape grants you the size of the new form (provided you have wild shape access to that size)... it requires further steps to facilitate.
Werral 06-29-07, 07:03 PM	If you're a croc you can drag them in the water and drown them, that's what crocs do in real life after all.
Ezurus 06-29-07, 07:15 PM	Plus if you're a flying creature (or controling one) like a Dire Bat, Griffon, Dragon, Air Elemental, ECT. you can grapple an oponent and if you pin you can fly straight up at half your "straight up speed" (depends on manuverablity) and drop when ever you feel like it. Sometimes they will fall early, doing little falling damage, because they've won a grapple check and effectively jumped, but that's just a free AoO. If you're really persistent you can just use the AoO to grapple them again :) Edit: Whoa, I must have been looking on page 1... This ended up much farther down than I anticipated.
rkun 06-29-07, 07:26 PM	i know the original question was about druids but on a side note CC'd monk/rogues do wonders when grappling
Halloween Jack 06-30-07, 12:18 AM	It may seem like there are a lot of things that shut down grappling, but when it works, it really works.
BW0222 06-30-07, 01:17 PM	choant, Let's see... 1. Grappling may allow you to 'hit' folks with high ACs -- since armor, shields, natural armor, etc. do not help avoid the touch attack, and virtually nothing allows you to avoid the grapple check for damage. 2. You can place an opponent in a situation where he can't attack, or his attacks are nearly useless. For example, a 10th-level fighter grappled can't use his great sword. Even if he can draw a dagger, damage is typically only a fraction of a what they might be able to do with a sword (strength, specialization, power attack, etc.) If you have DR (say a werebear), then chances are he can't do 11hp in one hit. 3. You can completely nerf ranged folks. A ranger with lots of bow feats is pretty much useless in combat. 4. You can nerf most spell casting. They can't cast Somatic spells, getting components out is difficult, and it is a DC 20 + spell level concentration check even if they could cast. 5. It prevents use of many magical items, scrolls, potions, wands, etc. Even taking them out could be an issue. 6. It is a good non-lethal tactic. In a bar fight, against a charmed PC, taking the last goblin as a prisoner, etc. 7. It prevents folks from easily getting away. 8. It greatly lowers the AC of high dex folks. It allows other party members to get melee hits in more easily. 9. It allows party rogues to get sneak attack in. 10. It allows you to move folks. For example, you could drag someone to the edge of a cliff, into a wall of fire (assuming you had fire protection), under water (assuming you could breath), (for a druid) back and forth through a wall of thorns, (if you could fly and can carry the load) into the air to drop them later, etc. 11. You can pin them to effectively prevent them from doing anything. Typically while other PCs are using spells or attacking him. 12. You can often allow folks to get past the person. For example, if you grapple someone, folks can then move around him with other AoOs, cast spells next to him, or used ranged weapons. 13. Keeping nasty stuff away from non-protected PCs. For example, if you are an elven druid, you can grapple the ghoul to prevent him from attacking the human wizard. You are immune to the paralysation. If a fighter had negative energy protection up and the wight started going for the rogue, the fighter might decide that grappling the wight was smarter than allowing level drains on unprotected folks. 14. If you have improved grab (i.e. bear, lion, tiger, etc.) The grapple attempts are both free, and you can pull creatures into your square. (Hence why druids often like it.) 15. It can be reasonable protection against enemy archers. If you grapple on of them, the others can't easily attack you or are just as likely to damage their friend.
ravenshrike 06-30-07, 07:51 PM	hm yeah well that would have to be *after* the wild shape, no? wild shape grants you the size of the new form (provided you have wild shape access to that size)... it requires further steps to facilitate. no as it's a continuing spell effect.
divide_by_zero 06-30-07, 11:12 PM	The Reserve Feats from Complete Mage and Complete Champion are not specific to sorcerers/wizard, they are available to any spellcasting class. I fave of mine for my rogue/wizard is Clap of Thunder which requires ability to cast third level spells and have a sonic spell in reserve. In return you can deliver a touch attack that does 1d6/spell level. Creaking Cacophony and Thunderous Roar are both third level sonic Druid spells from the Spell Compendium. In a grapple where you are already touching your opponent, an automatic 3d6 damage is pretty sweet.
Pentagram 07-01-07, 07:11 AM	The Reserve Feats from Complete Mage and Complete Champion are not specific to sorcerers/wizard, they are available to any spellcasting class. I fave of mine for my rogue/wizard is Clap of Thunder which requires ability to cast third level spells and have a sonic spell in reserve. In return you can deliver a touch attack that does 1d6/spell level. Creaking Cacophony and Thunderous Roar are both third level sonic Druid spells from the Spell Compendium. In a grapple where you are already touching your opponent, an automatic 3d6 damage is pretty sweet. Although I'm not sure what use third level druid spells are for a rogue/wizard there is nothing automatic with a touch attack when grappling. You must still use a standard action and succeed on a melee touch attack to deliver the damage from a Clap of Thunder.
happyalldaylong 07-01-07, 10:56 AM	Now lets not forget. Grappaling is fun. thats the big deal. well... thats except all that good stuff about grappaling spellcasters, making them more useless than my goldfish. but now, if you get on the wrong side of a grapple... like my githyanki monk, lvl1. pinned down by a white dragon... that takes the fun out of it...
Rulebook 07-01-07, 11:03 AM	reaping maulers yo. just hold the pin long enough and the enemy dies. that way you dont have to waste time with monk attack bonuses, and can go straight to things liek barbarians that can conjure up a HUGE bonus quite quickly.
dungeoneerphil 07-01-07, 04:54 PM	And of course there's the metagame reason for grappling. All things being equal it's the one rule the DM probably hasn't committed to memory as much as he or she would like. So grapple away and have fun with the look on his or her face! :evillaugh
Mentar 07-02-07, 03:46 AM	For BW0222's post under #8 Don't forget that attacking into a grapple gives a 50% chance of hitting either person. However you can join the grapple and use light weapons without the chance of hitting a party member. Also, if the enemy is pinned you can join the grapple and disarm them, taking just about anything off their body while the main grappler (read highest grapple bonus) keeps them pinned. Sure it may take 30 rounds to kill the guy 1D4 (+str) at a time, but if it's the only enemy left and can't break free.... Yes, if you have 2 people grappling one, that one has to beat both of the other's grapple checks to break the pin or break free.
Leilond 07-02-07, 06:16 AM	For BW0222's post under #8 Don't forget that attacking into a grapple gives a 50% chance of hitting either person. However you can join the grapple and use light weapons without the chance of hitting a party member. Only when attacking with ranged weapon. If you melee attack into a grapple there's no "chance to hit your ally"
Mentar 07-02-07, 06:07 PM	Where is that info located? The DM I had for RPGA LG stated it was always a 50-50 chance, the DM I have now for non-RPGA also stated that, but I can't find it at the moment. Will edit if I can find it. Edit: Ok, under the info on Cover Ah, I see, the added info for the 50% chance is only on the ranged part. That would have helped when a melee crit hit the wrong person. DM stated a pinned enemy could be attacked without the chance, but grappling would have the chance. Will check with DM again next time.
_Chaz_ 07-02-07, 07:46 PM	Rulebook, why take Reaping Mauler (admittedly I altered the sleeper hold to the feat), when you can take choke hold from OA? choke hold is level, the reaping mauler sleep ability is reaping mauler level, when they're helpless it doesn't matter if they're not dead, they're 1 full round action away from being it.
Leilond 07-03-07, 06:47 AM	Where is that info located? The DM I had for RPGA LG stated it was always a 50-50 chance, the DM I have now for non-RPGA also stated that, but I can't find it at the moment. Will edit if I can find it. Edit: Ok, under the info on Cover Ah, I see, the added info for the 50% chance is only on the ranged part. That would have helped when a melee crit hit the wrong person. DM stated a pinned enemy could be attacked without the chance, but grappling would have the chance. Will check with DM again next time. DM is wrong or is not telling the truth. It sometimes happen when a DM is caught in a mistake. Show him that it isn't like that, be kind because some DMs are frustrated when a player show them mistakes, and be ready to accept an house rule ;)
Ellone 07-03-07, 11:44 AM	grappling, like most such maneuver (disarm, sunder, trip) is a necessary, funy and balanced ability when used in the basic and a powerhouse ability when optimized and dealing with humanoid opponents. the +4 bonus of improved grapple alone give you 70% success against an even bab and strengh opponent, specificly the kind of opponents you are not going to target first. With the help of some spell, i mean, really expensive and hard to gather spell, like enlarge person and bull strength, you could even use such trick against the kind of opponents you should never have tried to grapple (large and strong opponents with natural attack) and get the edge. The problem with graple is than this method put you out of the fight as well than your opponent, that's a limit, still is fighting large amount of lower cr opponent the big issue? let's imagine a grapple between a cr11 blue dragon and a level 11 barbarian. With enlarge, rage, improved graple and bull strength, the barbarian gets even grapling bonus with the still only large dragon. He gets one attempt with each attack, and with help of a haste spell, could arguably manage to pin the dragon in one round. I have said my player than if any of them try to take advantage of such optimization (disarm and sunder give more humanoid specific advantage, but still very impressive), most monster would too.
Leilond 07-03-07, 11:54 AM	grappling, like most such maneuver (disarm, sunder, trip) is a necessary, funy and balanced ability when used in the basic and a powerhouse ability when optimized and dealing with humanoid opponents. the +4 bonus of improved grapple alone give you 70% success against an even bab and strengh opponent, specificly the kind of opponents you are not going to target first. With the help of some spell, i mean, really expensive and hard to gather spell, like enlarge person and bull strength, you could even use such trick against the kind of opponents you should never have tried to grapple (large and strong opponents with natural attack) and get the edge. The problem with graple is than this method put you out of the fight as well than your opponent, that's a limit, still is fighting large amount of lower cr opponent the big issue? let's imagine a grapple between a cr11 blue dragon and a level 11 barbarian. With enlarge, rage, improved graple and bull strength, the barbarian gets even grapling bonus with the still only large dragon. He gets one attempt with each attack, and with help of a haste spell, could arguably manage to pin the dragon in one round. I have said my player than if any of them try to take advantage of such optimization (disarm and sunder give more humanoid specific advantage, but still very impressive), most monster would too. Well... my monsters do it. For this reason my fighter took the "improved grapple", more to defend himself from "grappling" than to attack... then he discovered how can be usefull, and the combat part of the game becomed even more "tactical", with the spell caster really avoiding any contact with the "big guy" until the buffed themself in some way. The "minions" have now a very very important meaning for low strenght enemies But I've to agree with point: a grapple optimized character can be really difficult to keep at by ;)