Post/Author/DateTime	Post
symphonic_tempest 02-25-07, 10:45 AM	Don't get me wrong, I do know that it is useful. I wouldn't ignore what appears to be a pretty solid consensus on the boards. However, I've really only played caster characters up until now, and I can't quite see the use in it. As a binder, I've got medium BAB, and at lvl 15, it's 11/6/1, IIRC. Using PA lets me take parts of that bonus off and apply it to my damage rolls instead. But...I'm not *that* sure to hit most things already. If I start subtracting from my BAB, the extra damage won't do me any good, will it? Could someone explain to this greenhorn the merits of PA, and who should use it and when?
Bopple 02-25-07, 10:56 AM	PA is not a good choice for those without good attack bonus. Fighter and other full BAB classes benefit from it. And casters who can boost their attack bonus with spells, like gish with Wraithstrike & True Strike and cleric with Divine Power.
runestar 02-25-07, 11:01 AM	Against enemies with low AC(like some undead or elementals), you can usually afford to power attack for some points. The extra damage you get should more than offset the potential loss of damage from an increased chance of missing. Basically, it ensures that there is no such thing as a wasted or surplus point of bab.:)
nameneeded 02-25-07, 11:03 AM	Your right PA is not always useful.....You ned to have other stuff on your side. In general PA is used when one prob doesn't need the extra BAB to hit..... A 15th Lvl Fighter for example has a 15 BAB + prob 20+ STR for +5 +1 Weapon Focus, +x Weapon etc etc. And thats not extreme at all. There are people on these boards that can make way better fighters/ warriors. So with a quick say +26 to hit with a +5 weapon he can afford to lose some PA and still hit. And we haven't added it sitational modifies like flank and charge. Also with some buffs he can risk it all....A common tactic in our group is to use True Strike and full PA. Even better with 2handed weapons and Improved crit. :)
Thiez 02-25-07, 11:41 AM	PA is nice when you can't overcome DR. And when you knows that extra damage will drop a foe faster. Example with a fifth level fighter: The fighter is fighting something weak like zombies. Now, he does, on average, 14 damage with his greatsword (I'm using a sucky fighter in this example ;)). Dropping his BaB by 3 would give him an average damage of 18, so he can kill a 16 hp zombie in a single hit. I assume he can hit a zombie more than 50% of the time. Now he only has to hit each zombie once instead of twice, meaning he can kill twice as many zombies in the same amount of time. I know the above example was a bit oversimplified, but I'm sure you'll get the general idea. When using PA would result in a good chance of killing an opponent faster without affecting your to-hit too much, it's a good thing to use it.
Steevo 02-25-07, 11:47 AM	Could someone explain to this greenhorn the merits of PA, and who should use it and when? Power Attack is a useful feat, but that doesn't mean it's a useful feat for all classes. Combat Casting is *** useless to a Fighter, Power Attack is largely worthless to casting classes, due to their low BAB. If you're playing a spellcaster, I would reccomend against picking up Power Attack.
ShinAkuma2 02-25-07, 12:00 PM	PA is not a good choice for those without good attack bonus. That's not necessarily true. If you've got a 6 BAB when the Fighters have 9, and they're comfortably PAing for 5, then you can comfortably PA for 2 and still have the same attack bonus. 4 extra damage is 4 extra damage.
Thiez 02-25-07, 12:08 PM	Combat Casting is *** useless QFT. Take Skill Focus (Concentration) instead.
Illithid_Tentacles 02-25-07, 06:36 PM	Well of COURSE Power Attack going to be useless if you're playing a medium BAB character. That's like saying "I'm playing a barbarian and can't see why Extend Spell is useful."
3DJutsu 02-25-07, 06:51 PM	Also don't forget that the bonus from power atk is doubled with a 2-hander. i.e. -1 atk, +2 dmg
Krusk 02-25-07, 07:19 PM	power attack is useful for -full bab classes -fighting giants, oozes, walls, and things with low AC -two handed weapons -overcoming DR - probably some situations im forgetting about. For your character, it is probably not the best feat.
Bopple 02-25-07, 07:23 PM	That's not necessarily true. If you've got a 6 BAB when the Fighters have 9, and they're comfortably PAing for 5, then you can comfortably PA for 2 and still have the same attack bonus. 4 extra damage is 4 extra damage. No, generally that's not true. If you are a medium BAB class, you don't invest as much as fighters do, so that the attack bonus gap gets even larger than BAB, actually. It does not worth your precious feat.
Nathreet 02-25-07, 08:12 PM	optimal PA = ([average AB from all attacks] + 21 - ([average damage] - DR) / N - [enemy's AC]) / 2 N = 2 for a two handed weapon, 1 otherwise If [average AB from all attacks] + 21 - ([average damage] - DR) / N < [enemy's AC], then power attack is useless. I'd figure out everything except [enemy's AC] ahead of time to save you time later. If you figure out average damage per round with and without power attack, you'll find out it's not very useful. Even for a fighter. You get more damage per hit but you score less hits. So overall your damage doesn't go up very much. I'd guess that misses negate half the extra damage if you choose the optimal power attack modifier. If you estimate the enemy's AC incorrectly, it gets worse. Still, every little bit of damage helps.
nastynate 02-25-07, 08:42 PM	optimal PA = ([average AB from all attacks] + 21 - [enemy's AC] - [average damage] / N) / 2 N = 2 for a two handed weapon, 1 otherwise If [average AB from all attacks] + 21 - [average damage] / N < [enemy's AC], then power attack is useless. If you figure out average damage per round with and without power attack, you'll find out it's not very useful. You get more damage per hit but you score less hits. So overall your damage doesn't go up very much. Still, every little bit counts. I beg to differ. There are two situations when using power attack is a tremendous benefit. The first is against any opponent with a low AC, and the second is when fighting enemies with extremely high AC. 1: Say for example you have a total attack modifier of +20, and you are fighting creatures with an AC of 20; you will hit 95% of the time w/o power attack. If you normally deal 2d6+5 damage (12 on average) x 95% = 11.4 damage per attack. By using power attack for -5 to hit and +10 to damage, you instead hit 75% of the time, for 2d6+15 (22 on average); 22 x 75% = 16.5 damage per attack (5.1 damage more than w/o power attack). This may not seem like much, but as your attack bonuses increase so too does the average amount you should subtract for power attack against foes with low AC. 2: Using the same character above, fighting against creatures with an AC of 40 (you only hit on a natural 20), you might as well power attack for as much as you can; since you still only hit on a natural 20, you should at least try to inflict as much damage as possible when you do finally land a blow. There are also other factors to consider, such as feats and prestige classes which increase your power attack ratio (like the frenzied berserker, revenant blade, leap attack and favored power attack), or tactical feats like shock trooper which enable you to take an AC penalty instead of an attack penalty. Also keep in mind that for any miscellaneous +1 bonus to hit you gain (+2 for flanking, +2 for charging, +1 for being on higher ground or mounted, buff spells, bardic music, and so forth) can be converted into 2 points of extra damage (assuming you are using power attack with a 2 handed weapon to get a 100% percent better bonus). If you were already confident in your ability to hit pre-bonus...additional bonuses to hit = free damage. -Peace-
Bopple 02-25-07, 08:48 PM	Both of you are right. Power Attack in itself does not give you whopping amount of damage boost. That's why you need boost to attack roll and PA ratio.
calronmoonflower 02-25-07, 08:56 PM	Power Attack is also useful when attacking an object (they normally have a AC of 1) and it allows to to take the Cleave and Mighty Cleave feats. Characters with sneak attack or sudden attack might to well with the Power Attack and Cleave feats as it could allow them to sneak attack multiple weaker enemies with just a standard action.
Nom 02-25-07, 09:22 PM	As level (and BAB) increases, it becomes increasingly likely to hit most opponents on the full BAB attack. PA is most useful in situations where you only expect to make attacks at your full BAB: charging, Spring Attack, normal move + attack, etc. During a full attack, you might be better off not Power Attacking: while your first attack might be an auto-hit without PA, PA will noticeably penalise your iterative attacks.
runestar 02-25-07, 09:34 PM	There is a file out there somewhere which shows the best amount to PA for at each lv(statistically speaking).:) Plus, if you opponent is rendered helpless, time to break out the scythe and go all-out power attack...:D
ShinAkuma2 02-25-07, 09:58 PM	No, generally that's not true. If you are a medium BAB class, you don't invest as much as fighters do, so that the attack bonus gap gets even larger than BAB, actually. It does not worth your precious feat. Combat-based rogues would beg to differ, especially when some Sneak Attack will more than cover the gap between the Power Attack bonus damage values.
bob_the_great 02-25-07, 10:35 PM	power attack is useful because a fighter class gets an extra +1 to hit each level, plus the occasional increased chance to hit due to upgrading magic items. meanwhile, armor classes do not go up by +1 per level. also, the +2 damage for -1 attack tradeoff is really nice. I used to power attack a lot less in 3.0. i am not familiar with the binder, but you say it is only a medium bab class. that is obviously going to make power attack less beneficial. i assume a binder doesn't prioritize raising strength first like my barbarian, and doesn't invest as heavily as my barbarian in his weapon. a binder won't have weapon focus and improved like a fighter will. power attack allows me to view every opportunity to raise my attack by one as an opportunity to raise my attack by one or my damage by two. that is very nice.
Bopple 02-25-07, 10:51 PM	Combat-based rogues would beg to differ, especially when some Sneak Attack will more than cover the gap between the Power Attack bonus damage values. I am not sure what you are talking about. Rogues had better use TWF rather than Power Attack.
FrostHammer 02-25-07, 11:03 PM	There is a file out there somewhere which shows the best amount to PA for at each lv(statistically speaking).:) Plus, if you opponent is rendered helpless, time to break out the scythe and go all-out power attack...:D I still know some people who say Power Attack doesn't help Coup de Graces... Some dumb thing about no attack rolls involved.
Vrellum 02-25-07, 11:15 PM	Power attack is most beneficial when you are only getting 1 attack against an opponent with an AC that you can easily hit. You are fighting creatures with a very high AC You are fighting something with a lot of DR that you can't overcome. Say you're fighting a Rakshsha with an AC of 20 and DR15. All you've got is your trusty great sword. You're probably better off putting some points in PA. You'll hit less often, but at least you'll hurt it when you connect. Its a prereq for cleave, a solid feat and great cleave, a not so useful feat, as well as many others, such as improved sunder and bull rush, add noncore and the list gets very long. You are fighting creatures that you can hit relatively easily and drop during the round and you are positioned so you can cleave into something else. However, its likely a poor choice for your character
navar100 02-25-07, 11:16 PM	You wouldn't want to use power attack when your opponent has such a high ac you need every plus to hit. However, power attack synergizes very well with various bonuses. Suppose by whatever means you have a +7 to hit with a two-handed weapon and are perfectly happy with that +7 at this time. You would never, ever use power attack to go below +7 to hit. You flank. Instead of +9 to hit, you're at your beloved +7 with +4 damage. The bard inspires courage for +1. You're at your beloved +7 to hit with +7 damage. The cleric casts Bless. You're at your beloved +7 to hit with +9 damage. This +9 damage of course is above whatever your normal damage is that you dish out.
Vrellum 02-25-07, 11:22 PM	If you need, say a 19 or definately a 20 to hit anyway, you might as well PA for everything. Especially if you're getting multiple attacks. The exact break points vary depending on the number of attacks and damage you do, etc.
Willie the Duck 02-26-07, 04:03 PM	Power attack is also useful for creatures of exceptionally high strength, who don't really need the bab in order to hit you (raging high level barbarians with really nice magic items or of a high strength race like half-ogre or minotaur). Power attack also combines with a number of feats that increase the amount of damage that you gain per point of to-hit that you swap out. I won't comment on those builds, but I will say that they say more about those feats than about power attack itself (despite being dependent on power attack). Also, if you're up against something where you need a natural 20 to hit anyways, you may as well power attack full. You may only hit 5% of the time, but when you do they'll feel it.
BW0222 02-26-07, 05:04 PM	symphonic_tempest, Good times to use power attack. 1. Against objects. Bridge, doorway, table, etc. 2. When you can't miss. Coup-de-grac, true strike, etc. 3. When you are honestly highly unlikely to miss. Your opponent is held, blind, prone, asleep, you are invisible, etc. 4. You appear to be hitting a lot (i.e. fairly low AC). 5. Your opponent has serious DR and normal attacks just aren't doing damage. 6. Offen, you expect your opponent doesn't have a high AC, you are limited to one attack that round, and you are using a two handed weapon.
runestar 02-26-07, 10:00 PM	You wouldn't want to use power attack when your opponent has such a high ac you need every plus to hit. If you are going to hit only on a natural 20 anyways, why wouldn't you go all out power attack+combat expertise?:)