Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tanegar 10-06-07, 08:29 PM	Sorry if I'm being a bit thick, but I'm just not getting it. Wizards are living exemplars of the proverb, "Knowledge is power." They derive their signature class ability (arcane spellcasting) from continuous, intensive study and research. They're allowed to substitute Draconic for one of the bonus languages available to their race, suggesting they routinely study obscure tongues. Why isn't Speak Language a class skill?
Salla 10-06-07, 08:41 PM	Draconic is an optional language for them because many arcane tomes are written in Draconic (because Dragons are cool like that). Besides, they have Comprehend Languages and Tongues. :)
BugHunter 10-06-07, 10:12 PM	Wizards get most of thier knowledge from spending time reading tomes. Arcane texts and spells are written in Draconic. The best way to learn languages is by traveling from place to place that is why bards get speak language as a class skill.
Grod_The_Giant 10-06-07, 10:23 PM	Good point, Tanegar! <goes off and pencils it in the PHB> I think that one got totally forgotten, especially seeing how Decipher Script is on their list.
Arkeas 10-06-07, 10:33 PM	I think it may perhaps be simply because learning a whole language is somewhat more difficult than learning to jump a quarter of a foot higher. But, do what you like, I cannot think of any other reason not to.
jaelis 10-06-07, 10:35 PM	Actually, IMX "book-learning" and being able to learn languages easily are pretty different things. "Continuous intensive study and research" isn't the sign of someone really good at learning a language... getting out and talking to people is. And of course, wizards start off knowing a lot of languages, and have lots of skill points so they can learn more. But I wouldn't say that learning a language should be a class skill for them.
Grod_The_Giant 10-06-07, 10:43 PM	Actually, IMX "book-learning" and being able to learn languages easily are pretty different things. "Continuous intensive study and research" isn't the sign of someone really good at learning a language... getting out and talking to people is. And of course, wizards start off knowing a lot of languages, and have lots of skill points so they can learn more. But I wouldn't say that learning a language should be a class skill for them. come on. I think the skill totally fits with the wizard archtype.
jaelis 10-07-07, 09:01 AM	come on. I think the skill totally fits with the wizard archtype. To each his own. When I think of someone who learns languages easily, I picture Indiana Jones or Lawrence of Arabia, not Gandalf or Merlin.
1 ton ghost 10-07-07, 01:56 PM	no, he's right, wizards are the intellegencia of the comunity. it stand to reason the most learned would also have learned the most languages. how many lost ruins need to be looked at and analyzed for PC worth? that's his/her department. arcane text, theory not magic, can be written in any number of languages too and they are constantly networking w/ one another for spell formula, item creation and the like. the dissemintation of info fosters magical growth. why impede it? Comp. Lang. and Tongues are limited on time and a lycium or academic discourse on planar FX could take hours. i understand game balance and so forth in rank distribution and so on, but it just feels like they were sitting around and decided to throw Bard a bone to help "even it out". who knows. for someone that gets ALL KNOWLEDGES as class skills, that tends to allude to languages in that they are knowledges of a sort, not skills or talents. they can know just about anything from every category, just not languages? c'mon. language is way easier to document and spread through the ages than some obscure magical fact only a few would know via a high KnowArcane DC.
Cifer 10-07-07, 05:29 PM	First, there's the interesting question what exactly Class Skills are supposed to mean. It's probably not "skills that are practical for you to have", since that would mean every character would have all the skills he maxxes out as class skills. Thinking about that, I'd say it makes sense for wizards not to have Speak Languages as class skill. 1tonghost mentioned the need to communicate with fellow wizards - but I don't think you need the class skill for that, for a very simple reason: Look at all but the most modern times. Science always had a single language. In our world, it was Latin, which got partially replaced by English. A friend of mine who studied medicine and had to get some semihistorical references for his thesis looked up some Czech operation documentations from the beginning of the last century and had no problems with understanding them despite not speaking Czech - they were all written in Latin. Translating this into D&D, there's a reason every wizard has the option of learning draconic: Every other wizard will use it in disputes. Heck, most wizards know about five languages from the beginning, and learning new ones isn't really difficult even with the restrictions. Assuming a +3 int bonus and you otherwise only get Knowledge Arcana, Spellcraft and Concentration, you could still get 4 extra languages at first level.
Kayli 10-07-07, 08:59 PM	no, he's right, wizards are the intellegencia of the comunity. it stand to reason the most learned would also have learned the most languages. how many lost ruins need to be looked at and analyzed for PC worth? that's his/her department. arcane text, theory not magic, can be written in any number of languages too and they are constantly networking w/ one another for spell formula, item creation and the like. the dissemintation of info fosters magical growth. why impede it? Comp. Lang. and Tongues are limited on time and a lycium or academic discourse on planar FX could take hours. i understand game balance and so forth in rank distribution and so on, but it just feels like they were sitting around and decided to throw Bard a bone to help "even it out". who knows. [QUOTE=1 ton ghost;14015719]for someone that gets ALL KNOWLEDGES as class skills, that tends to allude to languages in that they are knowledges of a sort, not skills or talents. they can know just about anything from every category, just not languages? c'mon. language is way easier to document and spread through the ages than some obscure magical fact only a few would know via a high KnowArcane DC. I would like to dispute this contention. language is not a knowledge skill nearly as much as it is a talant. Think about translation programs. I am sure you have heard, "all your base are belong to us!" learning and speaking any language is a process that is not even remotely the same as becoming a knowledgable font of information on a given subject. it is a mistake to think of linguistic ability as a knowledge skill, it is in fact a talant. remarkably it doesn't take nearly as much intelegence to become fluent in a wide veriety of languages, as one might think.
MnemonicSV 10-08-07, 03:15 AM	I agree with Kayli above, learning a language is more talent than knowledge. It's like learning to type on a keyboard. Some geniuses can well be two-finger typists, whereas some high-speed typists can well be morons. I suppose the confusion (for D&D purposes) is based on the fact that INT is used to determine the number of additional languages known at first level, and INT is also used as the base ability for all Knowledge skills, as well as the key modifier for gaining skill points. It's easy to assume a connection there, even if there isn't really one at all. I would argue that WIS is in fact a better ability to base number of additional languages known at first level. Learning the languages spoken around you growing up is more about paying attention to those speaking it, learning what is meant or implied, what is literal and what is figurative, and seeing how that language is applied in practical use. Those are all hallmarks of wisdom, not intelligence IMO. Lots of Sense Motive, Listen and Spot checks if you want to think of it that way. Learning languages after you've reached maturity? Sure, that's where intelligence comes in, in the form of spending skill points to learn extra languages (the higher your INT, the more skill points you have, the more extra languages you can learn by investing points into Speak Language).
BW0222 10-08-07, 07:40 AM	Folks, Remember that wizards likely already spell a fair number of languages due to intelligence and likely have a lot of skill points (even cross-classed) for learning extra languages. Wizard is still likely to speak more langugages than a bard - at least starting.
Vharuck 10-08-07, 11:18 AM	I always saw class skills as skills usually intrinsic to the training required for the class. This is why Rogues, a class with many sneaky abilities or abilities that rely on stealth, have Hide and Move Silently as class skills. Fighters, who learn all types of combat, have Ride as a class skill since mounted combat is quite common. Barbarians have Survival since almost every Barbarian lives outside of civilization and either learns to survive or dies. Wizards get Decipher Script since their training focuses on logic and reasoning skills, which are more important than language skills in deciphering an incomprehensible text (unless your language skills include the specific language). Also, if you were to look at the "notes" of real-world alchemists (upon whom the wizard class was based), they were rarely straight-forward and often not even in a real language. Alchemists guarded their secrets, and so to understand the notes of another, they had to be able to decipher the coded data.
madbliza 10-08-07, 11:38 AM	I disagree. I don't thinks Wizards should get Speak Language as a class skill. Afterall, why does a Wizard want to learn a language that doesn't deal with his spells. For instance, most magical tomes are written in Draconic or Elven... even Dwarven. But how many tomes are Orc or Goblin? From a Wizard stand point, I see no reason to learn those languages because it does not help me learn spells. Also, in reference to reading magical writings and things of that nature. That is exactly what Decipher Script is for and it is a Wizard's skill. Also, they have spells to compensate for any language they encounter. So no, I don't think wizards should get Speak Languages.
imakuni67 10-08-07, 12:17 PM	I think it may perhaps be simply because learning a whole language is somewhat more difficult than learning to jump a quarter of a foot higher. But, do what you like, I cannot think of any other reason not to. Agreed. Just play a human wizard, you'll start with enough languages. Or take loremaster ;)
Avenger314 10-08-07, 06:30 PM	I don't see a wizard needing to learn a lot of languages in order to speak with people. They're not interaction specialists. They are, however, scholars. They need to be able to understand magical writings and texts. To my mind, knowledge (arcana), spellcraft, and the draconic language fit into these very reasonably. So all that 'wizardy' stuff that would leave another character tongue-tied fit into the above skills. Jim