Post/Author/DateTime	Post
scottaeb13 12-02-07, 09:50 PM	I play a Ranger/Rogue who is heading into Dread Commando. I try to balance between ranged sneak attacks and artillery support. This feat would make my character significantly more effective. Are bows so supremely better than crossbows that this is a "make-up" feat to equalize things?
Salla 12-02-07, 09:54 PM	I play a Ranger/Rogue who is heading into Dread Commando. I try to balance between ranged sneak attacks and artillery support. This feat would make my character significantly more effective. Are bows so supremely better than crossbows that this is a "make-up" feat to equalize things? That's my opinion, yes ... nobody uses a crossbow unless they absolutely have to (due to proficiency issues), so this was an attempt to make it more attractive.
dman11235 12-02-07, 10:02 PM	Salla's right, but then there is Dead eye (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Dead_Eye,Dragon) from Dragon magazine #304.
Rymosrac 12-02-07, 10:02 PM	Agreed, and I really like that there isn't an available equivalent for bows. This still doesn't do a lot to close the gap, but it helps. Edit: Yeah, there is always deadeye. Always struck me as a little overpowered, though. Especially since you can get your STR mod to damage with bows.
scottaeb13 12-02-07, 10:03 PM	What are everyones' thoughts on house ruling to allow this feat for bows?
dman11235 12-02-07, 10:07 PM	My thoughts? No. Bows don't need the power boost.
scottaeb13 12-02-07, 10:18 PM	I have always liked Dead Eye. What about removing the 1/2 dex from crossbow sniper and just allowing the 60 feet on ranged sneak attacks for bows? Is that still too powerful?
happy_fuzzy 12-02-07, 10:40 PM	I would personally allow it unless you have a crossbow fanboy who doesn't want the gap to widen again
StevenO 12-02-07, 11:15 PM	Aside from Bows already having enough benefits over crossbows there are two more reasons why it is easier to "snipe" with a crossbow. The first is maintained draw; while not really considered in DnD it is so much easier to hold a loaded crossbow at ready for period of time than it is a bow. Remember that DnD bows aren't our modern compound bows that let of 80% or the draw weight which enables a person to hold them long enough to aim properly. The Second reason to allow X-bows to snipe is the expanded threat range; these seems to indicate they are a little more accurate and thus better suited for sniping.
Rymosrac 12-03-07, 12:04 AM	Again, bows REALLY don't need the power boost. The damage output of a bow user with a source of extra damage like sneak attack can get ridiculous quickly - particularly if the splitting enhancement is in use. Crossbows are handicapped enough, I'd rather not give bows one of the few advantages that crossbows have going for them.
scottaeb13 12-03-07, 12:44 AM	Let me change gears a little bit. With this same character Ranger 2/Rogue 4/Dread Commando (next 5), I spent my 6th level feat on Deadeye Shot thinking a guaranteed sneak attack was useful. Unfortunately, it has not worked out to be a very good feat as my party does not have an elite melee striker. My DM is willing to let me retrain, but lacking the +6 BAB I cannot get most of the really useful ranged feats. I have narrowed it down to Improved Initiative, Shot on the Run, or Sharp Shooting. Sharp shooting would end up being retrained at 11th level anyway(improved precise shot), but would be used quite a bit with the group I play with. They seem to enjoy stepping into my line of sight. Improved initiative would help ensure I get sneak attacks the first round of combat(Obviously). Shot on the Run seems more tactical than plus/minus, but appears to be very useful. Please offer your thoughts!
demetri0us 12-03-07, 02:56 PM	Let me change gears a little bit. With this same character Ranger 2/Rogue 4/Dread Commando (next 5), I spent my 6th level feat on Deadeye Shot thinking a guaranteed sneak attack was useful. Unfortunately, it has not worked out to be a very good feat as my party does not have an elite melee striker. My DM is willing to let me retrain, but lacking the +6 BAB I cannot get most of the really useful ranged feats. Very nice of your DM. I have narrowed it down to Improved Initiative, Shot on the Run, or Sharp Shooting. I also really like coordinated shot. When you have multiple party members the stock on coordinated shot shoots up pretty high... think of it like a +4 to hit if you will. Shot on the Run seems more tactical than plus/minus, but appears to be very useful. Please offer your thoughts! See above. Shot on the run is good if you plan on moving around a bunch, but if you are trying to do sneak attacks, moving around is not necessarily the first-best choice.
Dheran 12-03-07, 04:03 PM	Go for Improved Initiative, and make sure you've maxed out your Spot and Listen skills. Getting to sneak attack on the surprise round, and again while the enemy is still flat-footed, is a huge advantage. Shot on the Run is a good choice for a Scout, but just mediocre for a ranged weapon Rogue.
scottaeb13 12-03-07, 04:49 PM	[QUOTE=Dheran;14491542]Go for Improved Initiative, and make sure you've maxed out your Spot and Listen skills. Getting to sneak attack on the surprise round, and again while the enemy is still flat-footed, is a huge advantage. That is where I was leaning too Dheran. I have maxxed out spot, listen, hide, and move silent.
dman11235 12-03-07, 09:33 PM	Actually, shot on the run is not that great for a scout. You can't use it with manyshot.
Dheran 12-03-07, 10:44 PM	Actually, shot on the run is not that great for a scout. You can't use it with manyshot. This is true, but sometimes mobility is more important than firepower. If you start out with no unobstructed line of sight to your enemies you'll need to move to fire anyway. Shot on the Run lets you move, fire, and end your turn with a move to give yourself cover/concealment. Against a large number of enemies with ranged weapons this is tactically superior to firing twice and remaining as an exposed target for multiple full attack volleys.
Pandapeep 12-03-07, 11:54 PM	Actually, shot on the run is not that great for a scout. You can't use it with manyshot. I've seen this ruled this way and that way. I tend to think it isn't all that broken to allow it.
dman11235 12-04-07, 07:16 PM	You can still move and attack, and with greater many-shot get off a lot of skirmish shots a round. But if you do want to use sotr, you'll need to be fine with doing very little damage.
Itachi666 12-04-07, 10:41 PM	The problem is that with manyshot, the -4, -6, and -8 penalties are rather significant at lower levels, making it difficult to hit your opponent. For a scout, the best feat by far is improved skirmish. +2d6/ +2AC just for moving an extra 10 ft for a total of 20 feet. Is there a feat that allows a crossbow to fire multiple shots as a standard action? I actually am making a scout with a light crossbow, since my character's strength is not that good, and since I can use crossbow sniper.
dman11235 12-05-07, 06:10 AM	No. And it wouldn't make sense to allow such a feat. You can only crank back the winch so fast. It's much easier to draw a bow. Those penalties disappear if you play it right, as in, get an exalted bard. Also, bracers of archery help, weapon focus as one of your bonus feats, and pump dex and only dex, and you should be fine to launch off 3 arrows. You'll likely hit with two of them. Just make sure you have greater manyshot.
Rymosrac 12-05-07, 11:54 AM	No such thing for crossbows, and I wouldn't think it should exist. The Splitting enhancement will let you make two attack rolls, but it's still one attack. Your DM may or may not allow skirmish damage on both bolts. Manyshot will work if you have Rapid Reload, but that's part of a full attack. You'd need to find some way of moving 10+ feet as a swift or free action one per round. Shouldn't be that difficult.
Hsien 12-05-07, 03:08 PM	Splitting seems similar to the Greater Manyshot, since there are seperate attack rolls required, Precision damage could apply to each attack. There are a few feats that allow extra attacks, like Penetrating shot(iirc) but specify limited precision damage Movement: Besides items... Travel Domain; then Travel Devotion (CoChamp) provides move + full attacks 1/day. Use Turn attampts to get extra uses
dman11235 12-05-07, 05:08 PM	Many shot does NOT work with crossbows (I think that's what you were saying?). It specifically says arrows. And if you think about it, how would it fire more than one bolt at a time? And how would rapid reload help? I think you meant rapid shot.
StevenO 12-05-07, 08:01 PM	Many shot could probably work better on a horizontal crossbow shelf than up a bow vertical limbs. This isn't what the feat implies but I'm just saying. A light crossbow doesn't need a winch to reload. It needs either a good lever or good leverage to lock the string back. Once the string is back it would be far easier to keep redy than a pulled bow.
The_Shaman 12-06-07, 05:01 AM	Splitting seems similar to the Greater Manyshot, since there are seperate attack rolls required, Precision damage could apply to each attack. IIRC it was FAQ'd not to. I mean, the extra shots do not carry precision damage. Anyway, I'd probably allow dead-eye shot - it can't match raw power of PAing anyway, so at most it can make squishies (mages) wary. As for bow vs crossbow, remember that the crossbow's main feature is its accessibility. Unlike PCs, most NPCs can't easily spare martial weapon proficiency and have 10 or 11 as the standard strength score. Therefore, if you want a quickly-trained militia now over a more expert force in five years, the crossbow is always useful.
Dheran 12-06-07, 02:30 PM	IIRC it was FAQ'd not to. I mean, the extra shots do not carry precision damage. I can't tell whether you're referring to splitting or Greater Manyshot here, but you don't remember correctly in either case. There's no mention of either in the FAQ. Plus this would directly contradict the rules:Greater Manyshot [General] ... You make a separate attack roll for each arrow, regardless of whether you fire them at separate targets or the same target. Your precision-based damage applies to each arrow fired, and, if you score a critical hit with more than one of the arrows, each critical hit deals critical damage.Splitting ... Make a separate attack roll for each missile using the same attack bonus. It's only spell volleys that add precision damage just once even with multiple attack rolls. The default for regular weapons is: if you make multiple attack rolls, precision-based damage applies to each attack. At a minimum of +4 magical bonus cost to your crossbow, splitting needs to follow these normal rules to justify the expense.
nrseer 01-01-08, 09:22 PM	And how would rapid reload help? I think you meant rapid shot. Rapid reload allows you to reduce the reload time by one step so you could reduce a light crossbows reload time to a free action there-fore making full attacks with it.... Also a cleric with zen archery and rapid reload is a pretty good combination