Wild mage and practiced spellcaster [Archive] - Wizards Community

Wild mage and practiced spellcaster [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zizij
11-24-07, 10:36 PM I did a quick search and didn't find anything on this, and I'm sorry if this has been asked before.
At first level, the wild mage (CArc 68) reduces his caster level by 3, and adds 1d6 to his caster level each time he casts a spell.
My question is would practiced spellcaster negate the loss, so a sorcerer 5/wild mage 1 would have a caster level varying from 7-12 (6+1d6)?
runestar
11-24-07, 10:43 PM From the FAQ,
How does Practiced Spellcaster interact with the wild magic class feature of the wild mage (from Complete Arcane)?

The –3 penalty and +1d6 bonus to the wild mage’s caster level are applied as a single step in the process of determining the wild mage’s caster level. Since Practiced Spellcaster’s bonus is always applied when it is most beneficial to the character (see previous answer), a wild mage with Practiced Spellcaster would typically apply the wild magic class feature first (subtracting 3 and adding 1d6 to her caster level) and then add the Practiced Spellcaster benefit, up to a maximum value equal to her character level.

For example, if a 5th-level wizard/4th-level wild mage with Practiced Spellcaster rolled a 1 on the 1d6 bonus to her caster level, her caster level for that spell would be 9th (base 9th, –3 from wild magic penalty, +1 from wild magic bonus, +4 from Practiced Spellcaster up to a maximum equal to her character level). If she rolled a 6, her caster level would be 12th (base
9th, –3 from wild magic penalty, +6 from wild magic bonus; the Practiced Spellcaster bonus would not apply since it would increase her caster level above her character level).

On the other hand, imagine a wild mage whose caster level (before applying the effects of the wild magic class feature) is less than her character level, such as a wild mage with levels of rogue or other non-spellcasting class. She might well choose to apply the Practiced Spellcaster bonus first, before applying the wild magic modifiers. A rogue 4/wizard 5/wild mage 4 would
have a base caster level of 9th before any other modifiers are applied. Adding Practiced Spellcaster’s bonus would increase this to 13th, at which point the penalty and bonus from wild magic would be applied. The Sage recommends that players averse to frequently recalculating caster level avoid playing a
character with this combination, as it is likely to cause headaches.
StevenO
11-25-07, 03:09 PM Practiced Spellcaster can negate the loss from Wild Magic. Note that the caster level adjustment for the Wild Mage is from the Wild Magic ability which applies BOTH the -3 and +d6 so the CL adjustment is best represented as (-3 +d6).

A Sorcerer5/Wildmage1 with Practiced Spellcaster would have a CL of 6-9 with the CL 6 happening half the time.
Tordak
11-26-07, 10:46 AM I would suggest to calculate (apply) the feat first in the calculation, meaning you determine the caster level with the feat first and everytime you cast a spell you roll 1d6-3 for the level, or first determine the caster level with practice spell caster (which is limited by the character's HD) and then apply the Wild Mage class ability effect.

The only reason I would do this is for flavor reason; the wild mage is all about randomness, and it kind of defeats the purpose of the class ability to allow practiced spellcaster to negate the penalty. There's no 'rule' reason however, and since both the feat and the class are in the same book if they didn't want that to happen they would have simply specified it in the ability description.
risner
11-26-07, 11:59 AM I did a quick search and didn't find anything on this, and I'm sorry if this has been asked before.
At first level, the wild mage (CArc 68) reduces his caster level by 3, and adds 1d6 to his caster level each time he casts a spell.
My question is would practiced spellcaster negate the loss, so a sorcerer 5/wild mage 1 would have a caster level varying from 7-12 (6+1d6)?

You didn't search the FAQ?
It is in there.
Daeva
11-28-07, 04:36 AM all it does is make your minimum 6 and not increase your max, ive noticed A LOT of old search able questions poping up lately ><
pukunui
12-18-07, 07:26 PM I'm glad I found this thread. I was going to start my own one about this very thing. One of my players is making a warmage / wild mage and has chosen Practiced Spellcaster for the very reason outlined in the FAQ. I initially gave him the go-ahead, but now that I've actually thought about it, it's occurred to me that the wild mage + practiced spellcaster combo is a "too good to be true" no-brainer power-up! Pure cheese, in fact. I can't believe that WotC has actually endorsed it!

As Tordak pointed out, the wild mage class is meant to be all about randomness, but practiced spellcaster effectively eliminates the risk/cost and hands the benefit of the class to you on a silver platter. With the feat, you get no chance of casting below your usual level - just the chance of casting at your regular level or up to three levels higher.

You would have to be an idiot (or someone who really, really dislikes power-gaming ... which some people might see as one and the same) not to take practiced spellcaster with wild mage. In fact, I'm beginning to think the combo is almost a no-brainer for any caster build. "Here, for a feat and one PrC level, you get a +0-+3 CL boost as well as +1 to your existing spellcasting level." That seems ridiculously brokenly overpowered to me (Yes, I'm aware that I'm using all sorts of language that I wouldn't normally use but that just goes to show how worked up about this I am).

How can WotC have actually endorsed this combo via the FAQ?! It totally flies in the face of their PRC design advice in the DMG! It says no PrC should ever be a no-brainer. (Yes, I'm sure there are plenty of other PrC that are no-brainers. It's not just wild mage. But this is the first time I've ever had to deal with one. My players aren't big on PrCs.)

Thoughts, anyone? I'm thinking of ignoring the FAQ ruling and banning this combo from my game.
Scion of Coldshard
12-18-07, 09:13 PM For the cost of a feat you go from an average of +0.5 to an average of +1. I am not really seeing the awe inspiring power here ;)
Merestil Haye
12-18-07, 09:54 PM Thoughts, anyone? I'm thinking of ignoring the FAQ ruling and banning this combo from my game.It's simply not that strong.

The average return on this combo is that it gives approximately a +½ CL increase. The combo has no effect 2/3 of the time. 1/6 of the time it increases the CL by 1, and 1/6 of the time it increases the CL by 2.

The opportunity cost of this benefit is huge. The character has to invest two or three feat slots into qualifying for the PrC. The character could have used the slots to buy something with a more significant impact on his character's offensive potential.

Not to mention that actually using the metamagic feat means that he takes longer to cast his spells.

He also has to invest skill points into two cross-class skills to qualify for the PrC, which may mean not advancing skills he might otherwise take.

Honestly, when compared to the cost, the gain is just not that great.
pukunui
12-18-07, 10:15 PM The opportunity cost of this benefit is huge. The character has to invest two or three feat slots into qualifying for the PrC. The character could have used the slots to buy something with a more significant impact on his character's offensive potential.

He also has to invest skill points into two cross-class skills to qualify for the PrC, which may mean not advancing skills he might otherwise take.Thanks for pointing all that out. It's made me realize that the main reason this combo is overpowered in this particular instance is because of several house rules of mine and the fact that the character's base class is warmage. The latter gives him a metamagic feat for free (sudden empower). The relevant house rules are my variant half-elf (I allow them to pick any one +2/+2 skill-boosting feat instead of the automatic +2 diplomacy/+2 gather info, so naturally the player chose magical aptitude) and my cross-class skill rule (I allow my players to buy cross-class skills at a 1:1 cost, although the half max ranks thing is still in place).

So I guess it's mainly my own doing. But would you agree that, under the circumstances, this combo is too powerful?
StevenO
12-19-07, 12:18 AM Thanks for pointing all that out. It's made me realize that the main reason this combo is overpowered in this particular instance is because of several house rules of mine and the fact that the character's base class is warmage. The latter gives him a metamagic feat for free (sudden empower). The relevant house rules are my variant half-elf (I allow them to pick any one +2/+2 skill-boosting feat instead of the automatic +2 diplomacy/+2 gather info, so naturally the player chose magical aptitude) and my cross-class skill rule (I allow my players to buy cross-class skills at a 1:1 cost, although the half max ranks thing is still in place).

So I guess it's mainly my own doing. But would you agree that, under the circumstances, this combo is too powerful?
For all the good houserules can do they can certainly mess things up once a player figures out how to use them the their own advantage.

Practiced Spellcaster is barely worth it for just a Wild Mage as it loses a lot of potential by providing an average of CL +.5 which is well below its potential of CL +4. The interesting use of Practice Spellcaster with a Wild Mage is when you are also missing a couple caster levels to another class; here you get to use +2 all the time making up the two "missing" levels with the other +2 in reserve to cover any poor Wild Magic rolls.
teshen
12-19-07, 12:36 AM . . . So I guess it's mainly my own doing. But would you agree that, under the circumstances, this combo is too powerful?
Not really. First off, you mentioned half elf and warmage... neither inspire a lot of awe.

Second, the way the ability was written
. . . She reduces her caster level by 3 for all spells she casts from now on. However, every time she casts a spell, her use of wild magic adds 1d6 to her adjusted caster level. . .

If this was applied as practice caster says to apply it 'whenever it would be most beneficial' which would be after the three caster level deduction but before the wild magic addition, then it would be a no brainer... however somebody from WotC stated that it is meant to apply in one step Caster Level - (-3+1d6).

So practiced caster would only apply on a full caster when the roll is a one or a two on the roll (-2 or -1 caster level to a spell) which would be nifty... but not that great. The net result is your usual caster level 50% of the time. The other 50% gets you +1, +2, or a +3 to individual spells. That means a little more range or duration or damage... but half the time it's normal and the rest of the time it's minor... especially since it doesn't do anything to remove the damage caps on most spells that your warmage will be using.

Edit: What StevenO said...
pukunui
12-19-07, 01:15 AM Even so, what Tordak said before holds true for my point of view as well -- applying practiced spellcaster really ruins the wild mage prc. It makes it nothing more than a power-booster rather than a prc all about randomness and risk-taking.
Merestil Haye
12-19-07, 07:01 AM So I guess it's mainly my own doing. But would you agree that, under the circumstances, this combo is too powerful?The only one of those three factors that I feel is a little overpowered is the free Able Learner feat for all creatures. I like the feel of the feat substitute for skill boosts idea, and the fact that the Warmage gets a bonus metamagic feat does not concern me; wizards (a far more powerful class) also get bonus metamagic feats, and do so at a more optimal level for entry into this PrC. A wizard can take WM1 and Practiced Spellcaster at 6th level, an automatically optimised pick. A Warmage has to make a compromise somewhere.

I note that your main concern is flavour. Firstly, please note that the Wild Mage is not all about risktaking - at least not personal risktaking. The Student of Chaos ability shows that the class is designed with the idea that the character has a limited amount of control over randomness. Also the character is quite happy to let other people take their risks. There is no downside to the character for the Random Deflector ability, for example.

If you see it as an overwhelming problem, you can reverse your decision, but please be prepared to deal with a very disappointed player. I suspect (from the fact that the player has been planning this from the start) that he doesn't see your problem with the flavour. (Speaking personally, if you reversed a decision on me for flavour reasons and I did not share your opinions, I'd be really annoyed with you.)
pukunui
12-19-07, 03:46 PM The only one of those three factors that I feel is a little overpowered is the free Able Learner feat for all creatures.I got the idea from one of Andy Collins' sibling rivalry articles. Apparently he does it in all his games to encourage people to spread the skill points around a bit more. It hasn't been an issue in my game until now. Fortunately, I don't think it will be an issue at all in 4th edition, especially considering that they've cut the skill list in half.

I like the feel of the feat substitute for skill boosts ideaMe too ... lol. I just didn't like the idea that all members of a halfbreed race would be good at the same thing. It also gives half-elves something more to show for being half-human than just "favored class: any". :rolleyes:

and the fact that the Warmage gets a bonus metamagic feat does not concern me; wizards (a far more powerful class) also get bonus metamagic feats, and do so at a more optimal level for entry into this PrC.Yes, that's true. I hadn't thought of that. I was clearly overreacting and didn't think it through all the way.

I note that your main concern is flavour. Firstly, please note that the Wild Mage is not all about risktaking - at least not personal risktaking. The Student of Chaos ability shows that the class is designed with the idea that the character has a limited amount of control over randomness. Also the character is quite happy to let other people take their risks. There is no downside to the character for the Random Deflector ability, for example.You're right. I admit I was looking at it purely in terms of a character with only one level of wild mage. However, I still maintain that practiced spellcaster ruins the whole point of the "wild magic" class feature, if nothing else about the class. Also, I don't really like the Random Deflector thing. When I first read it, I thought - well that's annoying, it gives no mechanic for determining who is randomly targeted. Am I just supposed to count the number of combatants, assign them each a number, and then roll the die that most closely matches the number of combatants?

If you see it as an overwhelming problem, you can reverse your decision, but please be prepared to deal with a very disappointed player. I suspect (from the fact that the player has been planning this from the start) that he doesn't see your problem with the flavour. (Speaking personally, if you reversed a decision on me for flavour reasons and I did not share your opinions, I'd be really annoyed with you.)I can handle someone being annoyed with me, especially if the reversal of my decision came while the character was still being built rather than after it had already been put into play. However, my player seems to have taken it gracefully enough. He isn't a powergamer and has no interest in "breaking the game". He was merely trying to build a warmage on the advice of people on the CharOp boards and in fact was getting incredibly frustrated with the character before I even said anything. He told me he now regrets ever asking for help on the CharOp boards because he got overwhelmed with suggestions and his original idea got laughed at, etc etc. So yeah ...

I've basically just said that practiced spellcaster doesn't work with the wild magic class feature. I don't think it should and so in my game world it won't. Ugh, I can't wait for 4th edition! It'll provide my group with a clean slate with far fewer options (at least to begin with).
Scion of Coldshard
12-19-07, 04:06 PM If you want to increase the random nature you could make it d12-6 or d20-10;)
StevenO
12-19-07, 09:12 PM If you wanted a bigger range for Wild Mage go 2d4-5 which will give you the full +/- 3 effect but with +/-1 being most common.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zizij 11-24-07, 10:36 PM	I did a quick search and didn't find anything on this, and I'm sorry if this has been asked before. At first level, the wild mage (CArc 68) reduces his caster level by 3, and adds 1d6 to his caster level each time he casts a spell. My question is would practiced spellcaster negate the loss, so a sorcerer 5/wild mage 1 would have a caster level varying from 7-12 (6+1d6)?
runestar 11-24-07, 10:43 PM	From the FAQ, How does Practiced Spellcaster interact with the wild magic class feature of the wild mage (from Complete Arcane)? The –3 penalty and +1d6 bonus to the wild mage’s caster level are applied as a single step in the process of determining the wild mage’s caster level. Since Practiced Spellcaster’s bonus is always applied when it is most beneficial to the character (see previous answer), a wild mage with Practiced Spellcaster would typically apply the wild magic class feature first (subtracting 3 and adding 1d6 to her caster level) and then add the Practiced Spellcaster benefit, up to a maximum value equal to her character level. For example, if a 5th-level wizard/4th-level wild mage with Practiced Spellcaster rolled a 1 on the 1d6 bonus to her caster level, her caster level for that spell would be 9th (base 9th, –3 from wild magic penalty, +1 from wild magic bonus, +4 from Practiced Spellcaster up to a maximum equal to her character level). If she rolled a 6, her caster level would be 12th (base 9th, –3 from wild magic penalty, +6 from wild magic bonus; the Practiced Spellcaster bonus would not apply since it would increase her caster level above her character level). On the other hand, imagine a wild mage whose caster level (before applying the effects of the wild magic class feature) is less than her character level, such as a wild mage with levels of rogue or other non-spellcasting class. She might well choose to apply the Practiced Spellcaster bonus first, before applying the wild magic modifiers. A rogue 4/wizard 5/wild mage 4 would have a base caster level of 9th before any other modifiers are applied. Adding Practiced Spellcaster’s bonus would increase this to 13th, at which point the penalty and bonus from wild magic would be applied. The Sage recommends that players averse to frequently recalculating caster level avoid playing a character with this combination, as it is likely to cause headaches.
StevenO 11-25-07, 03:09 PM	Practiced Spellcaster can negate the loss from Wild Magic. Note that the caster level adjustment for the Wild Mage is from the Wild Magic ability which applies BOTH the -3 and +d6 so the CL adjustment is best represented as (-3 +d6). A Sorcerer5/Wildmage1 with Practiced Spellcaster would have a CL of 6-9 with the CL 6 happening half the time.
Tordak 11-26-07, 10:46 AM	I would suggest to calculate (apply) the feat first in the calculation, meaning you determine the caster level with the feat first and everytime you cast a spell you roll 1d6-3 for the level, or first determine the caster level with practice spell caster (which is limited by the character's HD) and then apply the Wild Mage class ability effect. The only reason I would do this is for flavor reason; the wild mage is all about randomness, and it kind of defeats the purpose of the class ability to allow practiced spellcaster to negate the penalty. There's no 'rule' reason however, and since both the feat and the class are in the same book if they didn't want that to happen they would have simply specified it in the ability description.
risner 11-26-07, 11:59 AM	I did a quick search and didn't find anything on this, and I'm sorry if this has been asked before. At first level, the wild mage (CArc 68) reduces his caster level by 3, and adds 1d6 to his caster level each time he casts a spell. My question is would practiced spellcaster negate the loss, so a sorcerer 5/wild mage 1 would have a caster level varying from 7-12 (6+1d6)? You didn't search the FAQ? It is in there.
Daeva 11-28-07, 04:36 AM	all it does is make your minimum 6 and not increase your max, ive noticed A LOT of old search able questions poping up lately ><
pukunui 12-18-07, 07:26 PM	I'm glad I found this thread. I was going to start my own one about this very thing. One of my players is making a warmage / wild mage and has chosen Practiced Spellcaster for the very reason outlined in the FAQ. I initially gave him the go-ahead, but now that I've actually thought about it, it's occurred to me that the wild mage + practiced spellcaster combo is a "too good to be true" no-brainer power-up! Pure cheese, in fact. I can't believe that WotC has actually endorsed it! As Tordak pointed out, the wild mage class is meant to be all about randomness, but practiced spellcaster effectively eliminates the risk/cost and hands the benefit of the class to you on a silver platter. With the feat, you get no chance of casting below your usual level - just the chance of casting at your regular level or up to three levels higher. You would have to be an idiot (or someone who really, really dislikes power-gaming ... which some people might see as one and the same) not to take practiced spellcaster with wild mage. In fact, I'm beginning to think the combo is almost a no-brainer for any caster build. "Here, for a feat and one PrC level, you get a +0-+3 CL boost as well as +1 to your existing spellcasting level." That seems ridiculously brokenly overpowered to me (Yes, I'm aware that I'm using all sorts of language that I wouldn't normally use but that just goes to show how worked up about this I am). How can WotC have actually endorsed this combo via the FAQ?! It totally flies in the face of their PRC design advice in the DMG! It says no PrC should ever be a no-brainer. (Yes, I'm sure there are plenty of other PrC that are no-brainers. It's not just wild mage. But this is the first time I've ever had to deal with one. My players aren't big on PrCs.) Thoughts, anyone? I'm thinking of ignoring the FAQ ruling and banning this combo from my game.
Scion of Coldshard 12-18-07, 09:13 PM	For the cost of a feat you go from an average of +0.5 to an average of +1. I am not really seeing the awe inspiring power here ;)
Merestil Haye 12-18-07, 09:54 PM	Thoughts, anyone? I'm thinking of ignoring the FAQ ruling and banning this combo from my game.It's simply not that strong. The average return on this combo is that it gives approximately a +½ CL increase. The combo has no effect 2/3 of the time. 1/6 of the time it increases the CL by 1, and 1/6 of the time it increases the CL by 2. The opportunity cost of this benefit is huge. The character has to invest two or three feat slots into qualifying for the PrC. The character could have used the slots to buy something with a more significant impact on his character's offensive potential. Not to mention that actually using the metamagic feat means that he takes longer to cast his spells. He also has to invest skill points into two cross-class skills to qualify for the PrC, which may mean not advancing skills he might otherwise take. Honestly, when compared to the cost, the gain is just not that great.
pukunui 12-18-07, 10:15 PM	The opportunity cost of this benefit is huge. The character has to invest two or three feat slots into qualifying for the PrC. The character could have used the slots to buy something with a more significant impact on his character's offensive potential. He also has to invest skill points into two cross-class skills to qualify for the PrC, which may mean not advancing skills he might otherwise take.Thanks for pointing all that out. It's made me realize that the main reason this combo is overpowered in this particular instance is because of several house rules of mine and the fact that the character's base class is warmage. The latter gives him a metamagic feat for free (sudden empower). The relevant house rules are my variant half-elf (I allow them to pick any one +2/+2 skill-boosting feat instead of the automatic +2 diplomacy/+2 gather info, so naturally the player chose magical aptitude) and my cross-class skill rule (I allow my players to buy cross-class skills at a 1:1 cost, although the half max ranks thing is still in place). So I guess it's mainly my own doing. But would you agree that, under the circumstances, this combo is too powerful?
StevenO 12-19-07, 12:18 AM	Thanks for pointing all that out. It's made me realize that the main reason this combo is overpowered in this particular instance is because of several house rules of mine and the fact that the character's base class is warmage. The latter gives him a metamagic feat for free (sudden empower). The relevant house rules are my variant half-elf (I allow them to pick any one +2/+2 skill-boosting feat instead of the automatic +2 diplomacy/+2 gather info, so naturally the player chose magical aptitude) and my cross-class skill rule (I allow my players to buy cross-class skills at a 1:1 cost, although the half max ranks thing is still in place). So I guess it's mainly my own doing. But would you agree that, under the circumstances, this combo is too powerful? For all the good houserules can do they can certainly mess things up once a player figures out how to use them the their own advantage. Practiced Spellcaster is barely worth it for just a Wild Mage as it loses a lot of potential by providing an average of CL +.5 which is well below its potential of CL +4. The interesting use of Practice Spellcaster with a Wild Mage is when you are also missing a couple caster levels to another class; here you get to use +2 all the time making up the two "missing" levels with the other +2 in reserve to cover any poor Wild Magic rolls.
teshen 12-19-07, 12:36 AM	. . . So I guess it's mainly my own doing. But would you agree that, under the circumstances, this combo is too powerful? Not really. First off, you mentioned half elf and warmage... neither inspire a lot of awe. Second, the way the ability was written . . . She reduces her caster level by 3 for all spells she casts from now on. However, every time she casts a spell, her use of wild magic adds 1d6 to her adjusted caster level. . . If this was applied as practice caster says to apply it 'whenever it would be most beneficial' which would be after the three caster level deduction but before the wild magic addition, then it would be a no brainer... however somebody from WotC stated that it is meant to apply in one step Caster Level - (-3+1d6). So practiced caster would only apply on a full caster when the roll is a one or a two on the roll (-2 or -1 caster level to a spell) which would be nifty... but not that great. The net result is your usual caster level 50% of the time. The other 50% gets you +1, +2, or a +3 to individual spells. That means a little more range or duration or damage... but half the time it's normal and the rest of the time it's minor... especially since it doesn't do anything to remove the damage caps on most spells that your warmage will be using. Edit: What StevenO said...
pukunui 12-19-07, 01:15 AM	Even so, what Tordak said before holds true for my point of view as well -- applying practiced spellcaster really ruins the wild mage prc. It makes it nothing more than a power-booster rather than a prc all about randomness and risk-taking.
Merestil Haye 12-19-07, 07:01 AM	So I guess it's mainly my own doing. But would you agree that, under the circumstances, this combo is too powerful?The only one of those three factors that I feel is a little overpowered is the free Able Learner feat for all creatures. I like the feel of the feat substitute for skill boosts idea, and the fact that the Warmage gets a bonus metamagic feat does not concern me; wizards (a far more powerful class) also get bonus metamagic feats, and do so at a more optimal level for entry into this PrC. A wizard can take WM1 and Practiced Spellcaster at 6th level, an automatically optimised pick. A Warmage has to make a compromise somewhere. I note that your main concern is flavour. Firstly, please note that the Wild Mage is not all about risktaking - at least not personal risktaking. The Student of Chaos ability shows that the class is designed with the idea that the character has a limited amount of control over randomness. Also the character is quite happy to let other people take their risks. There is no downside to the character for the Random Deflector ability, for example. If you see it as an overwhelming problem, you can reverse your decision, but please be prepared to deal with a very disappointed player. I suspect (from the fact that the player has been planning this from the start) that he doesn't see your problem with the flavour. (Speaking personally, if you reversed a decision on me for flavour reasons and I did not share your opinions, I'd be really annoyed with you.)
pukunui 12-19-07, 03:46 PM	The only one of those three factors that I feel is a little overpowered is the free Able Learner feat for all creatures.I got the idea from one of Andy Collins' sibling rivalry articles. Apparently he does it in all his games to encourage people to spread the skill points around a bit more. It hasn't been an issue in my game until now. Fortunately, I don't think it will be an issue at all in 4th edition, especially considering that they've cut the skill list in half. I like the feel of the feat substitute for skill boosts ideaMe too ... lol. I just didn't like the idea that all members of a halfbreed race would be good at the same thing. It also gives half-elves something more to show for being half-human than just "favored class: any". :rolleyes: and the fact that the Warmage gets a bonus metamagic feat does not concern me; wizards (a far more powerful class) also get bonus metamagic feats, and do so at a more optimal level for entry into this PrC.Yes, that's true. I hadn't thought of that. I was clearly overreacting and didn't think it through all the way. I note that your main concern is flavour. Firstly, please note that the Wild Mage is not all about risktaking - at least not personal risktaking. The Student of Chaos ability shows that the class is designed with the idea that the character has a limited amount of control over randomness. Also the character is quite happy to let other people take their risks. There is no downside to the character for the Random Deflector ability, for example.You're right. I admit I was looking at it purely in terms of a character with only one level of wild mage. However, I still maintain that practiced spellcaster ruins the whole point of the "wild magic" class feature, if nothing else about the class. Also, I don't really like the Random Deflector thing. When I first read it, I thought - well that's annoying, it gives no mechanic for determining who is randomly targeted. Am I just supposed to count the number of combatants, assign them each a number, and then roll the die that most closely matches the number of combatants? If you see it as an overwhelming problem, you can reverse your decision, but please be prepared to deal with a very disappointed player. I suspect (from the fact that the player has been planning this from the start) that he doesn't see your problem with the flavour. (Speaking personally, if you reversed a decision on me for flavour reasons and I did not share your opinions, I'd be really annoyed with you.)I can handle someone being annoyed with me, especially if the reversal of my decision came while the character was still being built rather than after it had already been put into play. However, my player seems to have taken it gracefully enough. He isn't a powergamer and has no interest in "breaking the game". He was merely trying to build a warmage on the advice of people on the CharOp boards and in fact was getting incredibly frustrated with the character before I even said anything. He told me he now regrets ever asking for help on the CharOp boards because he got overwhelmed with suggestions and his original idea got laughed at, etc etc. So yeah ... I've basically just said that practiced spellcaster doesn't work with the wild magic class feature. I don't think it should and so in my game world it won't. Ugh, I can't wait for 4th edition! It'll provide my group with a clean slate with far fewer options (at least to begin with).
Scion of Coldshard 12-19-07, 04:06 PM	If you want to increase the random nature you could make it d12-6 or d20-10;)
StevenO 12-19-07, 09:12 PM	If you wanted a bigger range for Wild Mage go 2d4-5 which will give you the full +/- 3 effect but with +/-1 being most common.