Wis to AC [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Wis to AC [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Scorpioni
08-20-07, 09:19 AM When I have monk and sorcerer lvls and take ascetic mage, I add my Cha bonus to AC. What if I take 2 swordsage lvls after that.. Do I get to add my Wis bonus as well or do both "add wis to ac" class features count as one for the ascetic mage feat?

thx in advance
TygerTyger
08-20-07, 11:19 AM The monk AC bonus from Wis and the Swordsage same do not stack. Can't find the rule atm, but I do recall that this question was also posed to Customer Service at one point, and they stated (for what its worth) that you cannot add the two bonuses.
GSonic7
08-20-07, 11:34 AM The monk AC bonus from Wis and the Swordsage same do not stack. Can't find the rule atm, but I do recall that this question was also posed to Customer Service at one point, and they stated (for what its worth) that you cannot add the two bonuses.

I believe it was because for the Swordsage, you have to be wearing light armor, while for the Monk you must be unarmored.

So, with what the OP posed, you would have Charisma to AC unarmored, but Wisdom to AC when wearing light armor.
tarkin
08-20-07, 12:23 PM A dex bonus does not stack with a dex bonus. They are both the same named bonus.

Similarly, a Wisdom Bonus to AC does not stack with a Wisdom Bonus.

In order to have them stack, it would have to say something like "you get an insight bonus to your AC exactly equal to your Wisdom BOnus".

But they don't do that. Instead they simply say things like:

"adds her Wisdom bonus"

That is a named bonus, specifically a WISDOM bonus.
Scorpioni
08-20-07, 12:59 PM Thx for the clarification... I asked the question because I didn't know an ascetic mage Cha bonus to AC still counted as a 'wisdom bonus'.

When checking in Tome of Battle, it states indeed you have to wear light armour but the question could also be asked (and is answered here) for an ascetic monk and ninja AC.
Big_Mac
08-20-07, 01:07 PM A dex bonus does not stack with a dex bonus. They are both the same named bonus.

Similarly, a Wisdom Bonus to AC does not stack with a Wisdom Bonus.

In order to have them stack, it would have to say something like "you get an insight bonus to your AC exactly equal to your Wisdom BOnus".

But they don't do that. Instead they simply say things like:

"adds her Wisdom bonus"

That is a named bonus, specifically a WISDOM bonus.

Tarkin I thought Dex bonuses were one one the exceptions to the stacking rules.
wonlee76
08-20-07, 01:13 PM Tarkin I thought Dex bonuses were one one the exceptions to the stacking rules.

I think you're thinking of a "Dodge" bonus to AC. The bonus that you get from the Dodge feat and what not (I have no idea what other feats, spells or abilities give dodge bonus to AC but I presume there are others).
Big_Mac
08-20-07, 01:19 PM I think you're thinking of a "Dodge" bonus to AC. The bonus that you get from the Dodge feat and what not (I have no idea what other feats, spells or abilities give dodge bonus to AC but I presume there are others).

you right I always see the 2 as the same.
jaelis
08-20-07, 01:30 PM The OP's question though, is whether Wisdom and Charisma bonuses to AC stack under these circumstances. Normally they would, but here it's not obvious.
claypigeons
08-20-07, 01:39 PM When I have monk and sorcerer lvls and take ascetic mage, I add my Cha bonus to AC. What if I take 2 swordsage lvls after that.. Do I get to add my Wis bonus as well or do both "add wis to ac" class features count as one for the ascetic mage feat?

thx in advance

The Swordsage version of 'wis to AC', as written, works only while wearing light armour. That alone makes it worthless for a monk.

However, it was errata'ed to work even while unarmoured.

I'm not aware of any official answer to the question, so I can only give my opinion. Ascetic Mage only 'remaps' the attribute you look at from wisdom to charisma. You still retain the same class ability, but you look at something else to determine the effect. Thus, I wouldn't allow you to have both the Swordsage and Monk versions of it.

The Feat is designed to lessen the requirements to make a Monk/Sorc multiclass work. It allows you to lessen the need for Wisdom, nothing more.
wonlee76
08-20-07, 01:58 PM However, it was errata'ed to work even while unarmoured.

what errata? I agree with your interpretation if the Swordsage Wis to AC ability could be used while unarmored but I'm curious as to what errata says the Swordsage Wis to AC ability works while unarmored.
jaelis
08-20-07, 02:18 PM I'm not aware of any official answer to the question, so I can only give my opinion. Ascetic Mage only 'remaps' the attribute you look at from wisdom to charisma. You still retain the same class ability, but you look at something else to determine the effect. Thus, I wouldn't allow you to have both the Swordsage and Monk versions of it.

I tend to agree. But then I think it follows that a Swordsage/Sorcerer with the feat could apply his Cha to AC instead of Wisdom. Which is reasonable, but it's hard to see how it would be supported by the text.
aelryinth
08-20-07, 02:37 PM The Swordsage ruling has been posted and answered numerous times.

Swordsage and Monk bonuses to AC are effectively the same. Ascetic Mage would remap the Monk version, and if you REALLY wanted to be nice, you could sub in Swordsage as well.

That said, the two still won't stack once the feat is taken, as they are still effectively 'the same thing', even if you are looking at another stat for the effect for one of them.

===Aelryinth
ilikefrogs
08-20-07, 02:48 PM That said, the two still won't stack once the feat is taken, as they are still effectively 'the same thing', even if you are looking at another stat for the effect for one of them.

===Aelryinth

Monks use WIS and DEX to determine their AC. Why couldn't a character use WIS and CHA?
Grumman
08-20-07, 03:11 PM Monks use WIS and DEX to determine their AC. Why couldn't a character use WIS and CHA?
Because none of the abilities mentioned remaps the DEX bonus to another stat - they give WIS/CHA in addition to DEX.

The only ability I've heard of that actually removes the DEX bonus is the Deepwarden, and that remaps it to CON.
ilikefrogs
08-20-07, 05:13 PM Because none of the abilities mentioned remaps the DEX bonus to another stat - they give WIS/CHA in addition to DEX.

The comment I was answering seemed to be saying that you can't use more than one ability to determine AC. If you are willing to eat a feat to do it, I fail to see the issue. (But I'm also not familiar with the feats in questions, so maybe there is something I'm just not seeing.)
GawainBS
08-20-07, 05:23 PM They originate from the same class feature, that's why they wouldn't stack.
risner
08-20-07, 09:01 PM When I have monk and sorcerer lvls and take ascetic mage, I add my Cha bonus to AC. What if I take 2 swordsage lvls after that.. Do I get to add my Wis bonus as well or do both "add wis to ac" class features count as one for the ascetic mage feat?

thx in advance

Monk Armour Bonus can't stack with Swordsage Armour Bonus, but not because they are exclusive.

Swordsage can (now) be used unarmoured or in light armour.

Astectic Mage says Monk levels, so it won't matter how many Swordsage levels you have, it won't help you.

Buy the way, double posting is bad, bad, bad, bad, bad.

Two bonuses of the same name (Armour Bonus) can never stack together.
Scorpioni
08-21-07, 02:28 AM If you name the monk bonus a 'wisdom' bonus even if you use Cha then it wouldn't stack with the 'wisdom' bonus from swordsage.

...Only those bonusses are UNNAMED as far as I can tell/remember...

However for the character I'm building for a campaign, I'll leave it at only cha to AC just to keep things a bit fair.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Scorpioni 08-20-07, 09:19 AM	When I have monk and sorcerer lvls and take ascetic mage, I add my Cha bonus to AC. What if I take 2 swordsage lvls after that.. Do I get to add my Wis bonus as well or do both "add wis to ac" class features count as one for the ascetic mage feat? thx in advance
TygerTyger 08-20-07, 11:19 AM	The monk AC bonus from Wis and the Swordsage same do not stack. Can't find the rule atm, but I do recall that this question was also posed to Customer Service at one point, and they stated (for what its worth) that you cannot add the two bonuses.
GSonic7 08-20-07, 11:34 AM	The monk AC bonus from Wis and the Swordsage same do not stack. Can't find the rule atm, but I do recall that this question was also posed to Customer Service at one point, and they stated (for what its worth) that you cannot add the two bonuses. I believe it was because for the Swordsage, you have to be wearing light armor, while for the Monk you must be unarmored. So, with what the OP posed, you would have Charisma to AC unarmored, but Wisdom to AC when wearing light armor.
tarkin 08-20-07, 12:23 PM	A dex bonus does not stack with a dex bonus. They are both the same named bonus. Similarly, a Wisdom Bonus to AC does not stack with a Wisdom Bonus. In order to have them stack, it would have to say something like "you get an insight bonus to your AC exactly equal to your Wisdom BOnus". But they don't do that. Instead they simply say things like: "adds her Wisdom bonus" That is a named bonus, specifically a WISDOM bonus.
Scorpioni 08-20-07, 12:59 PM	Thx for the clarification... I asked the question because I didn't know an ascetic mage Cha bonus to AC still counted as a 'wisdom bonus'. When checking in Tome of Battle, it states indeed you have to wear light armour but the question could also be asked (and is answered here) for an ascetic monk and ninja AC.
Big_Mac 08-20-07, 01:07 PM	A dex bonus does not stack with a dex bonus. They are both the same named bonus. Similarly, a Wisdom Bonus to AC does not stack with a Wisdom Bonus. In order to have them stack, it would have to say something like "you get an insight bonus to your AC exactly equal to your Wisdom BOnus". But they don't do that. Instead they simply say things like: "adds her Wisdom bonus" That is a named bonus, specifically a WISDOM bonus. Tarkin I thought Dex bonuses were one one the exceptions to the stacking rules.
wonlee76 08-20-07, 01:13 PM	Tarkin I thought Dex bonuses were one one the exceptions to the stacking rules. I think you're thinking of a "Dodge" bonus to AC. The bonus that you get from the Dodge feat and what not (I have no idea what other feats, spells or abilities give dodge bonus to AC but I presume there are others).
Big_Mac 08-20-07, 01:19 PM	I think you're thinking of a "Dodge" bonus to AC. The bonus that you get from the Dodge feat and what not (I have no idea what other feats, spells or abilities give dodge bonus to AC but I presume there are others). you right I always see the 2 as the same.
jaelis 08-20-07, 01:30 PM	The OP's question though, is whether Wisdom and Charisma bonuses to AC stack under these circumstances. Normally they would, but here it's not obvious.
claypigeons 08-20-07, 01:39 PM	When I have monk and sorcerer lvls and take ascetic mage, I add my Cha bonus to AC. What if I take 2 swordsage lvls after that.. Do I get to add my Wis bonus as well or do both "add wis to ac" class features count as one for the ascetic mage feat? thx in advance The Swordsage version of 'wis to AC', as written, works only while wearing light armour. That alone makes it worthless for a monk. However, it was errata'ed to work even while unarmoured. I'm not aware of any official answer to the question, so I can only give my opinion. Ascetic Mage only 'remaps' the attribute you look at from wisdom to charisma. You still retain the same class ability, but you look at something else to determine the effect. Thus, I wouldn't allow you to have both the Swordsage and Monk versions of it. The Feat is designed to lessen the requirements to make a Monk/Sorc multiclass work. It allows you to lessen the need for Wisdom, nothing more.
wonlee76 08-20-07, 01:58 PM	However, it was errata'ed to work even while unarmoured. what errata? I agree with your interpretation if the Swordsage Wis to AC ability could be used while unarmored but I'm curious as to what errata says the Swordsage Wis to AC ability works while unarmored.
jaelis 08-20-07, 02:18 PM	I'm not aware of any official answer to the question, so I can only give my opinion. Ascetic Mage only 'remaps' the attribute you look at from wisdom to charisma. You still retain the same class ability, but you look at something else to determine the effect. Thus, I wouldn't allow you to have both the Swordsage and Monk versions of it. I tend to agree. But then I think it follows that a Swordsage/Sorcerer with the feat could apply his Cha to AC instead of Wisdom. Which is reasonable, but it's hard to see how it would be supported by the text.
aelryinth 08-20-07, 02:37 PM	The Swordsage ruling has been posted and answered numerous times. Swordsage and Monk bonuses to AC are effectively the same. Ascetic Mage would remap the Monk version, and if you REALLY wanted to be nice, you could sub in Swordsage as well. That said, the two still won't stack once the feat is taken, as they are still effectively 'the same thing', even if you are looking at another stat for the effect for one of them. ===Aelryinth
ilikefrogs 08-20-07, 02:48 PM	That said, the two still won't stack once the feat is taken, as they are still effectively 'the same thing', even if you are looking at another stat for the effect for one of them. ===Aelryinth Monks use WIS and DEX to determine their AC. Why couldn't a character use WIS and CHA?
Grumman 08-20-07, 03:11 PM	Monks use WIS and DEX to determine their AC. Why couldn't a character use WIS and CHA? Because none of the abilities mentioned remaps the DEX bonus to another stat - they give WIS/CHA in addition to DEX. The only ability I've heard of that actually removes the DEX bonus is the Deepwarden, and that remaps it to CON.
ilikefrogs 08-20-07, 05:13 PM	Because none of the abilities mentioned remaps the DEX bonus to another stat - they give WIS/CHA in addition to DEX. The comment I was answering seemed to be saying that you can't use more than one ability to determine AC. If you are willing to eat a feat to do it, I fail to see the issue. (But I'm also not familiar with the feats in questions, so maybe there is something I'm just not seeing.)
GawainBS 08-20-07, 05:23 PM	They originate from the same class feature, that's why they wouldn't stack.
risner 08-20-07, 09:01 PM	When I have monk and sorcerer lvls and take ascetic mage, I add my Cha bonus to AC. What if I take 2 swordsage lvls after that.. Do I get to add my Wis bonus as well or do both "add wis to ac" class features count as one for the ascetic mage feat? thx in advance Monk Armour Bonus can't stack with Swordsage Armour Bonus, but not because they are exclusive. Swordsage can (now) be used unarmoured or in light armour. Astectic Mage says Monk levels, so it won't matter how many Swordsage levels you have, it won't help you. Buy the way, double posting is bad, bad, bad, bad, bad. Two bonuses of the same name (Armour Bonus) can never stack together.
Scorpioni 08-21-07, 02:28 AM	If you name the monk bonus a 'wisdom' bonus even if you use Cha then it wouldn't stack with the 'wisdom' bonus from swordsage. ...Only those bonusses are UNNAMED as far as I can tell/remember... However for the character I'm building for a campaign, I'll leave it at only cha to AC just to keep things a bit fair.