Wis to hit? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Wis to hit? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Xanthyr
11-05-07, 02:12 PM I was wondering if there are other feats similar to Zen Archery, which allows ranged attacks to use wisdom instead of dex.

Any ideas?
RobbyPants
11-05-07, 03:02 PM The only two feats I know about are Zen Archery (like you mentioned) for ranged attacks and Intuitive Strike (BoED?) which works on melee attacks, but only for simple weapons.

Other than that, try checking the X Bonus to Y Stat thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=320889). This thing is a real gem for reducing MAD for a character.
StruckingFuggle
11-05-07, 03:04 PM The only two feats I know about are Zen Archery (like you mentioned) for ranged attacks and Intuitive Strike (BoED?) which works on melee attacks, but only for simple weapons.

Intuitive Strike is from BoED, indeed; and it has the stupid stupid stupid pointless needless requirement of being Exalted to get it.
aelryinth
11-06-07, 09:05 PM Except for the fact that instead of being a must-have, don't need to thinka bout it, take all the time feat for every monk, druid and cleric out there, it's actually taken only by a very few of them who have to make hard character choices.

Seems like a very powerful, perfectly balanced feat to me!

===Aelryinth
StruckingFuggle
11-06-07, 09:10 PM And yet Dexy people don't need to jump through any such loops for Weapon Finesse.
aelryinth
11-07-07, 01:11 PM Weapon finesse doesn't contribute anywhere near as much to a character as Wis to hit does.

Dex to hit requires no armor to max out the primary power of Dex. Wis to hit has no such limitation, and plays into the strength of primary spellcasters and monk special abilities, to boot.

Weapon finesse is effectively a +TH bonus for a high Dex melee build, be it rogue or fighter. INtuitive Strike is an equally powerful build for two primary spellcaster builds that gives them everything and takes nothing away.

Is it better then weapon finesse for a monk? Well, weapon finesse assumes a Monk is probably going to boost his Dex. A monk gets a couple skill buffs, AC bonus, and improvement to Reflex saves by raising his Dex.

By raising his Wis, he ups his stunning fist save DC, improves his Will save, improves other skills, gets a better AC bonus (his monk AC), and later improves his Quivering Palm, etc.

Yeah, I think the Monk is better off With Wis To Hit.

As for Cleric and Druid...they've got buffs enough to assure themselves of decent damage if they do hit, but now being able to turf Str and Dex in favor of pure mental stats plays right to the Wildshaping Strengths of the Druid, and the Cleric doesn't care about a high Dex, so weapon finesse is worthless anyways (they tend to wear heavier armor). It makes perfect sense that their highest ability score driving their ability To Hit something would be something they'd grab at first opportunity. And if they do change/get buffed to something with a Str score above their Wis, it isn't like they are penalized for going back to the old way of doing things.

===Aelryinth
Legdiwena
11-08-07, 12:17 PM That's apples and oranges, what does applying Dex to armor have to do with it's bonus to hit?
Jackmojo
11-08-07, 04:32 PM Dex to hit requires no armor to max out the primary power of Dex. Wis to hit has no such limitation, and plays into the strength of primary spellcasters and monk special abilities, to boot.

The Max DEX bonus on armour only applies to the +DEX to AC not any other use of the DEX bonus

Maximum Dex Bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#maximumDexBonus)

This number is the maximum Dexterity bonus to AC that this type of armor allows. Heavier armors limit mobility, reducing the wearer’s ability to dodge blows. This restriction doesn’t affect any other Dexterity-related abilities.

Mind you I tend to agree with the rest of your point there though :)

Jack
aelryinth
11-08-07, 06:16 PM The reason I brought up armor is that there IS no armor that can keep up with top-ended Dex. You have to go bracers.

Thus, there's a top side benefit loss to a Dex build.

There IS no top side loss to a Wis build. For monks, they don't wear armor anyways. For clerics and druids, Wis is their primary stat, and they have NO penalties for raising it.

What I'm trying to say is it is difficult to get the maximum AC benefit out of a Dex build, because you have to balance armor/no armor vs Dex. The Wis build has no such limitations, nor even a single penalty as you keep raising the ability. It's also a mental stat, not a physical one, which, as any real optimizer will tell you, is the key argument. You can get a high Dex by shapechanging into something with a high Dex. Your Wisdom goes right along with you regardless of your physical stats.

===Aelryinth
Legdiwena
11-08-07, 06:19 PM If you use 3rd party, there is an armor with 2 armor and no max Dex.
Elderich
11-09-07, 01:43 PM The reason I brought up armor is that there IS no armor that can keep up with top-ended Dex. You have to go bracers.Charianna and Dastana, from Oriental adventures, can have no dex penalty. And allow more armor enhancements.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xanthyr 11-05-07, 02:12 PM	I was wondering if there are other feats similar to Zen Archery, which allows ranged attacks to use wisdom instead of dex. Any ideas?
RobbyPants 11-05-07, 03:02 PM	The only two feats I know about are Zen Archery (like you mentioned) for ranged attacks and Intuitive Strike (BoED?) which works on melee attacks, but only for simple weapons. Other than that, try checking the X Bonus to Y Stat thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=320889). This thing is a real gem for reducing MAD for a character.
StruckingFuggle 11-05-07, 03:04 PM	The only two feats I know about are Zen Archery (like you mentioned) for ranged attacks and Intuitive Strike (BoED?) which works on melee attacks, but only for simple weapons. Intuitive Strike is from BoED, indeed; and it has the stupid stupid stupid pointless needless requirement of being Exalted to get it.
aelryinth 11-06-07, 09:05 PM	Except for the fact that instead of being a must-have, don't need to thinka bout it, take all the time feat for every monk, druid and cleric out there, it's actually taken only by a very few of them who have to make hard character choices. Seems like a very powerful, perfectly balanced feat to me! ===Aelryinth
StruckingFuggle 11-06-07, 09:10 PM	And yet Dexy people don't need to jump through any such loops for Weapon Finesse.
aelryinth 11-07-07, 01:11 PM	Weapon finesse doesn't contribute anywhere near as much to a character as Wis to hit does. Dex to hit requires no armor to max out the primary power of Dex. Wis to hit has no such limitation, and plays into the strength of primary spellcasters and monk special abilities, to boot. Weapon finesse is effectively a +TH bonus for a high Dex melee build, be it rogue or fighter. INtuitive Strike is an equally powerful build for two primary spellcaster builds that gives them everything and takes nothing away. Is it better then weapon finesse for a monk? Well, weapon finesse assumes a Monk is probably going to boost his Dex. A monk gets a couple skill buffs, AC bonus, and improvement to Reflex saves by raising his Dex. By raising his Wis, he ups his stunning fist save DC, improves his Will save, improves other skills, gets a better AC bonus (his monk AC), and later improves his Quivering Palm, etc. Yeah, I think the Monk is better off With Wis To Hit. As for Cleric and Druid...they've got buffs enough to assure themselves of decent damage if they do hit, but now being able to turf Str and Dex in favor of pure mental stats plays right to the Wildshaping Strengths of the Druid, and the Cleric doesn't care about a high Dex, so weapon finesse is worthless anyways (they tend to wear heavier armor). It makes perfect sense that their highest ability score driving their ability To Hit something would be something they'd grab at first opportunity. And if they do change/get buffed to something with a Str score above their Wis, it isn't like they are penalized for going back to the old way of doing things. ===Aelryinth
Legdiwena 11-08-07, 12:17 PM	That's apples and oranges, what does applying Dex to armor have to do with it's bonus to hit?
Jackmojo 11-08-07, 04:32 PM	Dex to hit requires no armor to max out the primary power of Dex. Wis to hit has no such limitation, and plays into the strength of primary spellcasters and monk special abilities, to boot. The Max DEX bonus on armour only applies to the +DEX to AC not any other use of the DEX bonus Maximum Dex Bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#maximumDexBonus) This number is the maximum Dexterity bonus to AC that this type of armor allows. Heavier armors limit mobility, reducing the wearer’s ability to dodge blows. This restriction doesn’t affect any other Dexterity-related abilities. Mind you I tend to agree with the rest of your point there though :) Jack
aelryinth 11-08-07, 06:16 PM	The reason I brought up armor is that there IS no armor that can keep up with top-ended Dex. You have to go bracers. Thus, there's a top side benefit loss to a Dex build. There IS no top side loss to a Wis build. For monks, they don't wear armor anyways. For clerics and druids, Wis is their primary stat, and they have NO penalties for raising it. What I'm trying to say is it is difficult to get the maximum AC benefit out of a Dex build, because you have to balance armor/no armor vs Dex. The Wis build has no such limitations, nor even a single penalty as you keep raising the ability. It's also a mental stat, not a physical one, which, as any real optimizer will tell you, is the key argument. You can get a high Dex by shapechanging into something with a high Dex. Your Wisdom goes right along with you regardless of your physical stats. ===Aelryinth
Legdiwena 11-08-07, 06:19 PM	If you use 3rd party, there is an armor with 2 armor and no max Dex.
Elderich 11-09-07, 01:43 PM	The reason I brought up armor is that there IS no armor that can keep up with top-ended Dex. You have to go bracers.Charianna and Dastana, from Oriental adventures, can have no dex penalty. And allow more armor enhancements.