Post/Author/DateTime	Post
runestar 04-16-07, 02:41 AM	If a wolf hits with its bite attack, it may initiate a trip attempt as a free action. How does this interact with improved trip, which gives you an extra attack on a successful trip, as though you had not made the trip attempt? Will this grant the wolf an extra attack on a successful trip(going along the lines of "bite-->trip-->bite"), or will this have no benefit on the wolf, since it only grants the wolf an extra free action, which cannot be used for anything meaningful? Disregard the fact that a wolf cannot technically take the improved trip feat. Or assume it has been awakened or something.:) In addition, if you send someone flying with awesome blow, and use the AoO they provoke to trip them, what happens? Will they fall prone at that spot, or still continue flying 10ft away before falling prone? Thanks.:)
tarkin 04-16-07, 10:40 AM	This is a FAQ about this. Basically the answer is No. You can't bite, do damage, get a free trip, then get a new damage. ----------- If you trip them, they fall prone where you tripped them, no other place.
RobbyPants 04-16-07, 10:53 AM	It would trigger a cascade of infinite attacks and trips!!! Bite -> trip -> bite -> trip -> bite... On a more serious note, I have to agree with Tarkin.
Screams_of_the_Oak 04-16-07, 12:13 PM	Why is this even available? I don't understand why this ability was given to wolves and dogs. If it wants to trip you, it can make a trip. If it wants to bite your leg off, it can bite. There are tons of other situations where damage being incurred from actions is ignored (I mean look at bullrushing for god's sakes), so why did the writer just decide "Oh and that wolf trips you too". Why don't we just make bears effectively throw you with each attack? Why don't we just make all tigers automatically rake you with every attack? Why don't we make baleen whales automatically stun you with every tail slap? Why don't Owlbears make you question existance with every stare? It just seems like a whole lot of stupid.
epifreak 04-16-07, 12:53 PM	Right, I can actually see how the bite/trip/bite would work from a flavor standpoint. "The wolf grabs your leg, pulls you it out from under you dropping you to the ground. Before you get a chance to react, it is on you, snapping at your face in its bloodlust."
Scion of Coldshard 04-16-07, 01:08 PM	You can't bite, do damage, get a free trip, then get a new damage. Why not? Trip (Ex) A wolf that hits with a bite attack can attempt to trip the opponent (+1 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the wolf. Improved Trip [General] Prerequisites Int 13, Combat Expertise. Benefit You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed. You also gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check to trip your opponent. If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt. Normal Without this feat, you provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed. Special At 6th level, a monk may select Improved Trip as a bonus feat, even if she does not have the prerequisites. A fighter may select Improved Trip as one of his fighter bonus feats. I would say that the wolf would get the +4 bonus to the trip attempt and get the extra attack as well. There is nothing there saying that it would not.
runestar 04-16-07, 01:10 PM	Which FAQ ruling are you referring to? The one regarding bluff and improved trip?:confused: I hadn't realized it might result in a possible infinite trip-locking loop. I thought it would not be possible to trip someone who is already prone, and thus would not trigger improved trip's bonus attack. Nor was it my intention to begin with, let me assure you. I was just wondering if I could use the extra attack to disarm or something. Basically, I was wondering what sort of combos could go hand in hand with awesome blow. My creativity is somewhat stifled at the moment. So far, I was contemplating about some sort of awakened dire wolf tripper build, where it uses awesome blow to knock the foe prone, bite with the AoO, activate trip and use the extra attack to disarm or just bite for that little extra damage. Effectively 3 hits for 1 standard action. Back to the drawing board, I suppose...:embarrass
Scion of Coldshard 04-16-07, 01:17 PM	I hadn't realized it might result in a possible infinite trip-locking loop. I thought it would not be possible to trip someone who is already prone, and thus would not trigger improved trip's bonus attack. As far as I know it is not possible to infinite trip lock unless the creature automatically stands up whenever tripped but somehow you still get the free attack. Which I would assume to be a case that either never happens or is so incredibly difficult to achieve it is not reasonable to worry about it ;) Otherwise you could already do the infinite lock. You do get a free attack from improved trip after all, so just use that attack to make a trip. If you have a weapon with contact poison on it that is good for many attacks somehow then you have just won, assuming that they are vulnerable to that poison at least.
Nephlite 04-16-07, 01:22 PM	As far as I know it is not possible to infinite trip lock unless the creature automatically stands up whenever tripped but somehow you still get the free attack. Which I would assume to be a case that either never happens or is so incredibly difficult to achieve it is not reasonable to worry about it ;) Otherwise you could already do the infinite lock. You do get a free attack from improved trip after all, so just use that attack to make a trip. If you have a weapon with contact poison on it that is good for many attacks somehow then you have just won, assuming that they are vulnerable to that poison at least. Actually, a person manifesting Catfall falls landing on their feet (not on the ground). But except fot Catfallers, no one else can do this.
Scion of Coldshard 04-16-07, 01:25 PM	Actually, a person manifesting Catfall falls landing on their feet (not on the ground). But except fot Catfallers, no one else can do this. But catfall takes an action to use ;) I guess if there was an item of catfall that worked for every fall then this would happen. Assuming that there was not some arbitration by the DM. It still does not strike me as anything to worry about though.
runestar 04-16-07, 01:36 PM	What's next? A way of casting catfall on your enemy?:P So I can trip someone who is already prone? The actual tripping won't occur, but I still get the extra attack? Curious. If I trip someone with a flaming spiked chain, does he suffer the fire damage? I guess not...
PhaedrusXY 04-16-07, 01:58 PM	Nothing in the rules even hints that this wouldn't work. If the "Sage" said otherwise, he is just making up stuff for things he doesn't like again. As already mentioned, you can't trip someone who is already prone, so at most the wolf will get one free attack. I don't see what the problem with that is.
unfortunate_crow 04-16-07, 02:08 PM	Why is this even available? I don't understand why this ability was given to wolves and dogs. If it wants to trip you, it can make a trip. If it wants to bite your leg off, it can bite. There are tons of other situations where damage being incurred from actions is ignored (I mean look at bullrushing for god's sakes), so why did the writer just decide "Oh and that wolf trips you too". Why don't we just make bears effectively throw you with each attack? Why don't we just make all tigers automatically rake you with every attack? Why don't we make baleen whales automatically stun you with every tail slap? Why don't Owlbears make you question existance with every stare? It just seems like a whole lot of stupid. Watch some discovery channel and take a look at how wolves take down their prey. It makes perfect sense.
Tony Vargas 04-16-07, 02:41 PM	Improved Trip /does/ give you a free attack, as if the attack had not been used to trip. The Trip (EX) gives you a free trip after you hit successfully. If you decline to use it, you can't use it to attack. Seems reasonable that the two wouldn't stack. If you trip, and use a follow-up attack, the target is already down, so the Trip(EX) wouldn't aply. If you attack, and use the Trip(Ex), the action you're using to Trip isn't useable for an attack, so no follow-up from Improved Trip.
Longarms 04-16-07, 05:47 PM	"It would trigger a cascade of infinite attacks and trips!!! Bite -> trip -> bite -> trip -> bite..." Haha, that's a pretty good point. Although technically, it wouldn't be infinite as 1) the wolf would either miss on one of his bites or trips ending the sequence or 2) the victim would die! Either way the combat WILL move on.
Nom 04-17-07, 12:09 AM	It's also worth noting that IT gives the free attack "as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt". If your trip didn't substitute for an attack, then you haven't "used your attack for the trip attempt" and thus can't re-use this (non-existent) attack against your tripped opponent. The trip ability specifically states that the wolf "can attempt to trip the opponent (+1 check modifier) as a free action". Similarly, a counter-trip (against a failed trip attempt) doesn't use an action. In both cases, you didn't use an attack to make the trip attempt, and thus IT won't give it back to you. You'll still get the +4, however.
Longarms 04-17-07, 12:10 AM	All good points Nom. "The trip ability specifically states that the wolf "can attempt to trip the opponent (+1 check modifier) as a free action"" Your post also reminded me of the general rule that a DM has discretion to limit the number of free actions per turn. Since the trip is a free action, he has another way of keeping the cycle from continuing.
RobbyPants 04-17-07, 09:41 AM	"It would trigger a cascade of infinite attacks and trips!!! Bite -> trip -> bite -> trip -> bite..." Haha, that's a pretty good point. Although technically, it wouldn't be infinite as 1) the wolf would either miss on one of his bites or trips ending the sequence or 2) the victim would die! Either way the combat WILL move on. Well, that, and you can't trip an already-prone opponent! :P
runestar 04-17-07, 09:57 AM	Actually, there does not seem to be any rule explicitly forbidding you from trying to trip an already prone foe...:P I wonder how one might interpret that...
RobbyPants 04-17-07, 10:31 AM	Actually, there does not seem to be any rule explicitly forbidding you from trying to trip an already prone foe...:P I wonder how one might interpret that... Wierd. Maybe the wolf keeps flipping the guy around... :P I trip you, you fall on your back. Free attack! Now I trip you and flip you to your stomach. Free attack! Now I trip you and flip you to your back. Free attack! Now I... :P It's funny picturing a wolf throwing an adventurer around like a rag doll until he either misses or kills the poor guy. Thank goodness for common sense (I think). Otherwise everyone would want to play awakened wolves! "ZOMG!!!1!11 Wolvz r teh uber boknez pwznerz!!1!1!1!1!!one!!1!eleven!!"
Scion of Coldshard 04-17-07, 01:14 PM	Actually, there does not seem to be any rule explicitly forbidding you from trying to trip an already prone foe...:P I wonder how one might interpret that... You can attempt to trip them, succeed at the check, and then... nothing, you did not change their state at all. You cannot trip someone who is in a position where they are not able to be tripped ;) But at least a wolf with the improved trip feat gets two attacks on that first trip. That is really fun!
Screams_of_the_Oak 04-17-07, 01:47 PM	Watch some discovery channel and take a look at how wolves take down their prey. It makes perfect sense. What about the time he attacks your face. Are you dependent on balance with your face. If so, you have a very interesting character.
Scion of Coldshard 04-17-07, 01:50 PM	What about the time he attacks your face. Are you dependent on balance with your face. If so, you have a very interesting character. Just in case you havent noticed yet, the d&d rules are a little abstract. Perhaps the time when he mauled your face he failed to trip you, not as good leverage with that attack possibly ;)
Nephlite 04-17-07, 01:57 PM	What about the time he attacks your face. Are you dependent on balance with your face. If so, you have a very interesting character. Um, you may not know this. But in real life, humans are dependent on their face for balance: well their ears, but close enough. I learned that in my Zoology Class in College. This is why ear aches/other ear problems make you feel disoriented and confused as balance as off.
Scion of Coldshard 04-17-07, 02:16 PM	Um, you may not know this. But in real life, humans are dependent on their face for balance: well their ears, but close enough. I learned that in my Zoology Class in College. This is why ear aches/other ear problems make you feel disoriented and confused as balance as off. I take it you missed the smiley? The game rules are too abstract for the purpose of knowing where the hit was. You roll to hit, roll damage, figure out special effects, and at that point a description of what could have happened to cause that set of conditions is presented. Hopefully in an interesting way. If I have a wolf that bites through my head and destroys my eardrum I bet that will cause my balance to suffer. But then in d&d I would likely suffer no overly detrimental effects until I am below 1hp so that isnt really a worry.
Nom 04-17-07, 07:27 PM	But at least a wolf with the improved trip feat gets two attacks on that first trip. That is really fun!No, he doesn't. He tripped as a free action, not as an attack, so there is no "attack" to return for use with Improved Trip. The lack of a comma in the sentence is significant.
Scion of Coldshard 04-17-07, 07:39 PM	No, he doesn't. He tripped as a free action, not as an attack, so there is no "attack" to return for use with Improved Trip. The lack of a comma in the sentence is significant. Luckily this is not important to gaining the extra attack. ;) Wolf bites, trips, and improved trip triggers to give it an extra attack. Go wolf! Too bad about the int requirement :(
runestar 04-17-07, 10:18 PM	The Improved Trip feat description says that you get an extra attack after a successful trip attempt “as though you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.” That, however, is just a shorthand way of explaining what part of your normal attack routine you use for the extra attack; it’s not meant to imply that you enter some kind of strange time warp when you make trip attacks. Based on the FAQ interpretation, it does seem like improved trip would give a wolf an extra attack. Since that part simply means that the wolf essentially uses the to-hit roll of the attack used for the trip to make that extra attack, it does not mean that you essentially get the attack action used to make said trip back. Interestingly, a dire wolf advanced to 18HD is just cr7. Awaken it to 20HD for cr8...:plotting:
Scion of Coldshard 04-17-07, 11:51 PM	Interestingly, a dire wolf advanced to 18HD is just cr7. Awaken it to 20HD for cr8...:plotting: Which would mean that it could get combat expertise and improved trip if it takes one level of fighter or psychic warrior, assuming that it got 13 int or higher. Although it is likely that either of them would count as an associated class level :(
Nom 04-18-07, 12:14 AM	The critical text is "what part of your normal attack routine you use for the extra attack". In the case of a reactive Trip or a free wolf trip, the answer is "(D) none of the above" - you didn't use an attack to initiate the trip; rather, the opposed trip check was granted by some other mechanism. The FAQ is stating that time-limited circumstantial bonuses or modifiers that applied to the initial attack don't carry over into the bonus attack. In that sense, it's orthogonal to the issue under discussion.
runestar 04-18-07, 12:18 AM	Which would mean that it could get combat expertise and improved trip if it takes one level of fighter or psychic warrior, assuming that it got 13 int or higher. Although it is likely that either of them would count as an associated class level Probably psychic warrior, since epic rules kick in at this time, so the fighter's +1bab is useless anyways. Shame about the crummy duration of expansion though...:(
Scion of Coldshard 04-18-07, 08:31 AM	The critical text is "what part of your normal attack routine you use for the extra attack". So where is this text in the feat? If it is critical then it should be easy enough to show it asking this question. Shame about the crummy duration of expansion though... Very true :( Although practiced manifester would help in that area. At least the manifestation time is more reasonable than the casting time of enlarge person though!
SunTzuWarmaster 04-18-07, 10:02 AM	Just for the record, when things tackle me and attack my face, I do tend to lose my balance. My significant other has noticed this trend.
Scion of Coldshard 04-18-07, 10:47 AM	Just for the record, when things tackle me and attack my face, I do tend to lose my balance. My significant other has noticed this trend. Just for the record if I were to transport myself into d&d land I would be somewhere in the near epic to epic regime based on my training, skill set, and abilities. ;) But in the real world I would still be really likely to break something and/or die in a fall of 30'+ :( Stupid real world and its physics that I cannot break even with my degrees in physics :(
unfortunate_crow 04-18-07, 11:02 AM	What about the time he attacks your face. Are you dependent on balance with your face. If so, you have a very interesting character. Thousands of working dogs are taught to take down criminals and other bad people, not just sit there and chew on them. Hell, my shepherd can take down a 300lb. man no problem.
Nom 04-18-07, 07:13 PM	At the risk of re-provoking this discussion, let's assume that a non-attack trip does trigger the 'extra attack' of Improved Trip. Which rule governs the attack bonus for this attack?
unfortunate_crow 04-18-07, 08:27 PM	I'm not sure what you're asking exactly. I would say it's the same base attack as the previous one. Just for the record if I were to transport myself into d&d land I would be somewhere in the near epic to epic regime based on my training, skill set, and abilities. ;) ...and that, I would like to hear about.
runestar 04-18-07, 09:29 PM	At the risk of re-provoking this discussion, let's assume that a non-attack trip does trigger the 'extra attack' of Improved Trip. Which rule governs the attack bonus for this attack? The one used to make the trip attack then, I suppose.
WolfHati 04-18-07, 10:02 PM	The bite attack is the attack that causes the trip, you get an extra bite. No sane DM would allow you to trip someone who's already tripped, especially to get a free attack, so that's really a non-issue. Arguing that the trip from a wolf's bit attack is separate from the attack is like me punching a guy in the face and arguing that I didn't actually hurt him as it was really the gauge bosons which transferred kinetic energy to his nose. Or arguing that the trip attempt after the touch attack in a trip is a separate thing.
Nom 04-18-07, 10:56 PM	The one used to make the trip attack then, I suppose.So if someone attempts to trip me and I counter-trip and have improved trip I can make an attack using their (base/iterative) attack bonus? If not, then which bonus do the rules suggest I use? (Note to those who haven't read the whole thread: we're engaged in a hypothetical discussion about a very specific point. Please read the entire thread before "helpfully" trying to explain the trip rules to me.)
unfortunate_crow 04-18-07, 11:03 PM	Oh no, I didn't understand what you were asking. I believe you would use your strength modifier.
Flan 04-18-07, 11:12 PM	So if someone attempts to trip me and I counter-trip and have improved trip I can make an attack using their (base/iterative) attack bonus? If not, then which bonus do the rules suggest I use? Whatever your current bonus is at when the trip happened.
Flan 04-18-07, 11:16 PM	Watch some discovery channel and take a look at how wolves take down their prey. It makes perfect sense. Discovery Channel wolves don't have class levels, heck, a ninja10/swashbucker10 could whirlwind attack great cleave an entire PACK of them to death in 0.1 rounds with a scroll of timestop!
runestar 04-18-07, 11:33 PM	Except that whirlwind attack does not work with great cleave...;)
Thyrwyn 04-19-07, 09:31 AM	Hell, my shepherd can take down a 300lb. black dude no problem.But, what, he has problems with 300# white dudes? Why is the 'black' relevant? Please, this is extremely inappropriate -- keep it off the boards.
unfortunate_crow 04-19-07, 09:58 AM	I've never seen him take down a 300# white dude. I wasn't using "black" because it was especially relevant, but because it was relevant in that I was describing the guy my dog took down. I didn't realize it was "offensive". Don't stretch yourself to be offended. They're just words.
Ubasrawr 04-19-07, 10:01 AM	A trip attempt is a standard action guys, since you are making a unarmed melee attack. With improved trip you get to use your trip and attack as part of the standard action. You used up your standard action afterwards. Biting is a standard action. So a wolf biting takes away his standard action. His special ability allows him to have a his bite and trip as part of his standard action. The wolf then has used up all his standard actions. He's not going to get an extra standard action off his bite-trip from improved trip, since improved trip require you to have a standard action avaiable. The end. So no you can't do an inifinte trip loop no matter how much you want to. So it is either standard action bite-trip or trip-attack. Think about it. It takes a full round action to have multiple attack, there is no way that an attack requires less then a standard action to allow a character to attack.
Scion of Coldshard 04-19-07, 10:28 AM	A trip attempt is a standard action guys, since you are making a unarmed melee attack. Actually tripping is an action that replaces an attack, so it does not take a standard action at all. The attack that you are replacing with the trip might have taken a standard action or it might be part of a full attack or maybe even something else. Also, you can trip with more than just an unarmed melee attack, as detailed by certain weapons and other things in the ruleset. He's not going to get an extra standard action off his bite-trip from improved trip, since improved trip require you to have a standard action avaiable. Just to make sure it is clear, improved trip does not require a standard action. The feat gives you an extra attack that you may take but it must be taken immediately. Much like cleave, which also does not require you to have an extra standard action.