Would this series of feats be overpowered for my campaign? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Would this series of feats be overpowered for my campaign? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Cosmetor
08-28-07, 12:47 PM Strength Training
Your character has trained vigorously to improve his strength,
Prerequisite: Athletic
Effect: Your character gains a +2 bonus to his strength based skill checks.

Incredible Agility
Your character has trained vigorously to improve her agility.
Prerequisite: Agile
Effect: Your character gains a +2 bonus to her dexterity based skill checks.

Robust
Your character has trained vigorously to improve his stamina.
Prerequisite: Toughness
Effect: Your character gains a +2 bonus to his constitution based skill checks, and on rolls to keep from being fatigued or exhausted.

Intelligence Training
Your character has trained into the long hours of the night to improve her intelligence.
Prerequisite: Educated [from the ECS]
Effect: Your character gains a +2 bonus to her intelligence based skill checks.

Improved Intuition
Your character has trained vigorously to improve his wisdom.
Prerequisite: Alertness
Effect: Your character gains a +2 bonus to his wisdom based skill checks.

Inner Personality
Your character has trained vigorously to improve her charisma.
Prerequisite: Persuasive
Effect: Your character gains a +2 bonus to her charisma based skill checks.

Greater Strength Training
Your character has managed to merge practical application, experience, and training into a strict regiment which improves his strength dramatically.
Prerequisite: Athletic, Improved Strength.
Effect: Your character gets a +2 bonus on his strength score.
Special: A fighter can select this feat as one of his bonus feats.

Greater Agility Training
Your character has managed to merge practical application, experience, and training into a strict regiment which improves her dexterity dramatically.
Prerequisite: Agile, Improved Dexterity.
Effect: Your character gets a +2 bonus on her dexterity score.
Special: A fighter can select this feat as one of his bonus feats.

Greater Agility Training
Your character has managed to merge practical application, experience, and training into a strict regiment which improves his dexterity dramatically.
Prerequisite: Toughness, Improved Health.
Effect: Your character gets a +2 bonus on his constitution score.
Special: A fighter can select this feat as one of his bonus feats.

Greater Intelligence Training [Psionic]
Your character has managed to merge practical application, experience, and training into a strict regiment which improves her intelligence dramatically.
Prerequisite: Educated, Improved Intelligence
Effect: Your character gets a +2 bonus on her Intelligence score.
Special: A Wizard can select this feat as a bonus feat.

Greater Wisdom Training [Psionic]
Your character has managed to merge practical application, experience, and training into a strict regiment which improves his intelligence dramatically.
Prerequisite: Alertness, Improved Wisdom
Effect: Your character gets a +2 bonus on her Wisdom score.

Greater Charisma Training [Psionic]
Your character has managed to merge practical application, experience, and training into a strict regiment which improves her charisma dramatically.
Prerequisite: Persuasive, Improved Charisma.
Effect: Your character gets a +2 bonus on her charisma score.
Special: A Sorcerer can select this feat as a bonus feat.

I know these would be pretty overpowered in a normal campaign, but my campaign is a gestalt one so the characters are already pretty strong.
tarkin
08-28-07, 01:00 PM Normally characters gain +1 to a stat every 4 levels.

They get a feat every two levels.

To me that indicates that +1 to a stat should be better than what a single feat can do.

You want +2.

I would describe your feats as Epic feats. If you are playing in an Epic game, it should be OK. Otherwise, it sounds too powerfull.
Teh_username
08-28-07, 01:06 PM I would describe your feats as Epic feats.
Actually, they're twice as powerful as Epic Feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#greatCharisma).

Yes, Virginia, that means your series of feats would be overpowered.
NobodyRemembersThis
08-28-07, 01:10 PM Have the second tier grant a +2 to ability checks, not the actual ability. Then, have the 3rd in a string provide a +1 to a stat. A 3 tier (skill feat, ability check feat, stat boost) should be ok for a gestalt game.
wonlee76
08-28-07, 01:32 PM Or since you're playing gestalt and apparently you do want your PCs to be powerful on top of the benefits of gestalt, may as well just give him a higher point buy for stats (or more favorable dice rolling method for stats if you dice roll) so they start with higher stats instead of going through the hassle of a feat chain.
Cosmetor
08-28-07, 03:08 PM Have the second tier grant a +2 to ability checks, not the actual ability. Then, have the 3rd in a string provide a +1 to a stat. A 3 tier (skill feat, ability check feat, stat boost) should be ok for a gestalt game.

That should actually work, thanks.
Cosmetor
08-28-07, 03:27 PM Actually, they're twice as powerful as Epic Feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#greatCharisma).

Yes, Virginia, that means your series of feats would be overpowered.

There was no need for that snide/hostile comment. Please apologize.
Mousse
08-28-07, 04:31 PM Honestly, they are pretty far from overpowered feats. People seem to be overlooking that you really have to take three feats total to get that lovable little +2, and two of those feats are the sort of feats that you think very long and very hard about actually taking. You really only can take them with ease if you happen to have a ton of feats to burn, because you are essentially sacrificing three feat slots for a singular +2 bonus.

And, really, comparing them to epic feats is pretty silly. Epic feats are VERY hit and miss, with some being utterly useless, some being rather powerful and many being replicated at far below epic levels.
StruckingFuggle
08-28-07, 05:17 PM Actually, they're twice as powerful as Epic Feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#greatCharisma).

Yes, Virginia, that means your series of feats would be overpowered.

Assuming, of course, that all epic feats are properly epic and not vastly underpowered for their designation.

*coughTwoWeaponRendcoughLegendaryLeaperc ough*
bkdubs123
08-28-07, 05:48 PM Honestly, they are pretty far from overpowered feats. People seem to be overlooking that you really have to take three feats total to get that lovable little +2, and two of those feats are the sort of feats that you think very long and very hard about actually taking. You really only can take them with ease if you happen to have a ton of feats to burn, because you are essentially sacrificing three feat slots for a singular +2 bonus.

And, really, comparing them to epic feats is pretty silly. Epic feats are VERY hit and miss, with some being utterly useless, some being rather powerful and many being replicated at far below epic levels.

You missed the part where the only prereq's he had for the +2 bonus to a stat was something like Atheletics.

To be fair however, I'm still not sure if I would take them (even in their "overpowered" versions). They're cool and all, but when I select feats I generally select feats that offer me functionality and mechanical versatility. These offer nothing but a boost in power (that I can just spend gold pieces on).
wonlee76
08-28-07, 07:42 PM Keep in mind the original drafts of these feats which were edited out was basically a feat that granted a +2 bonus to an attribute that was stackable up to a maximum of +6 bonus to a stat with no meaningful pre-requisite. I think the OP's post was edited after NobodyRemembersThis's suggestion which I think is a good one.
StruckingFuggle
08-28-07, 08:07 PM On the other hand, considering the things you can do with some feats...

... I was going to ask "it's not necessarily that overpowered at the cost, is it?", but then I figure three feats for +3 to your casting stat (whee for improved DCs and more spells known) ... actually, I'm not sure how good it really is, compared to other feats you could take... hm.
NobodyRemembersThis
08-28-07, 10:28 PM My only other comment is the +2 ti stat based skill checks should not be selectable more than once. That would mean that a Diplomancer gets an additional +6 bonus to an otherwise alrady broken skill. Without ranks, that total can be +9. (Skill Focus [Diplomacy], Charismatic, Charismatic, Charismatic) So, a Human could have a +21 to diplomacy at level 9 with this build. Without taking into account the actual Charisma Score or Synergy Bonuses. It would be nothing to get a +30 by Level 10.

Keep in mind that that means that you would only need a 5 to end any combat - to change from Hostile to Indifferent.

While this is largely a problem with Diplomacy, it shows why the middle tier shouldn't be stackable. :)

Oh, and renmame the middle tiers:

Strong
Dextrous
Hardy
Smart
Intuitive
Charismatic

It gives the feats a little more flavor. :)
Part-Human2
08-29-07, 12:09 AM Skill Focus is +3 to one skill.
There are many feats that give +2 to two skills.
Your "Improved X" feats give +2 to a slew of different skills so they're too powerful.

+2 to an ability score is twice the bonus that the Epic "Great X" feats provide so your "Greater X Training" feats are too powerful too.
Dog_O_War
08-29-07, 12:19 AM I think your improved feats have great promise, given their prerequisites.
Two things I'd change about them are the specials (being able to be taken more than once becomes too powerful when it is applied to an entire range of skills) and their names; maybe something with a little more flavor than the generic 'improved'. An example could be 'Robust' instead of 'improved health'.
EjoThims
08-29-07, 08:54 AM 2 underpowered feats to take an overpowered one that give less benefit to the players in a high powered game than the high powered stat buy would?

Not unbalanced at all in a gestalt campaign.

For normal play they're a bit iffy, but the comparison to the epci feats is totally irrelevant.

Epic feats are largely trash, and we have many, many examples of 100% official feats that can be taken as early as 9th evel being downright superior to the equivalent epic feat.
Cosmetor
08-29-07, 12:12 PM Yeah, I know the flavor needs a bit of work, thanks for the suggestions, they are just a draft so far. And the stacking thing with the second tier of feats was unintentional, I just was strapped for time so didn't edit those parts out completely like I should have.
Novem
08-29-07, 12:22 PM Actually, they're twice as powerful as Epic Feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#greatCharisma).

Yes, Virginia, that means your series of feats would be overpowered.

I disagree. The epic ability feats are incredibly weak for any feats, let alone epic. I like these, and may adopt them for my game.
Cosmetor
08-30-07, 12:55 PM Up.
Part-Human2
08-30-07, 04:15 PM If people have problem with Epic feats, change the Epic feats for your game -- no need to make up homebrew feats.

If "underpowered" feats are a problem, then change those too.
Tedronai
08-30-07, 10:28 PM Those skill feats vary greatly in usefulness.

I could never see anyone taking Robust, but knowledge monkeys would jump on Intelligence Training, and most skill-heavy rogues would take at least one of those (either Intelligence Training, Incredible Agility, or Inner Personality)
fenixs11
09-10-07, 02:41 AM Robust
Your character has trained vigorously to improve his stamina.
Prerequisite: Toughness
Effect: Your character gains a +2 bonus to his constitution based skill checks, and on rolls to keep from being fatigued or exhausted.

hmmm... how many skill checks involve constitution again???

and for that matter, checks involving fatigue/non-lethal damage/suffocation/starvation...etc...

endurance offers a +4, and you can sleep in light/medium armor. and it has NO prerequisits

which brings up the next thing
Prerequisite: toughness
which gives you +3hp...
unless you're planning on taking 'greater toughness' this feat is pretty much useless.
demi d20
09-11-07, 09:39 AM What you need to remember about the Epic "Great XX" feats is that the reason those are 'Epic' is that you can take them more than once. His feats, you cannot.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cosmetor 08-28-07, 12:47 PM	Strength Training Your character has trained vigorously to improve his strength, Prerequisite: Athletic Effect: Your character gains a +2 bonus to his strength based skill checks. Incredible Agility Your character has trained vigorously to improve her agility. Prerequisite: Agile Effect: Your character gains a +2 bonus to her dexterity based skill checks. Robust Your character has trained vigorously to improve his stamina. Prerequisite: Toughness Effect: Your character gains a +2 bonus to his constitution based skill checks, and on rolls to keep from being fatigued or exhausted. Intelligence Training Your character has trained into the long hours of the night to improve her intelligence. Prerequisite: Educated [from the ECS] Effect: Your character gains a +2 bonus to her intelligence based skill checks. Improved Intuition Your character has trained vigorously to improve his wisdom. Prerequisite: Alertness Effect: Your character gains a +2 bonus to his wisdom based skill checks. Inner Personality Your character has trained vigorously to improve her charisma. Prerequisite: Persuasive Effect: Your character gains a +2 bonus to her charisma based skill checks. Greater Strength Training Your character has managed to merge practical application, experience, and training into a strict regiment which improves his strength dramatically. Prerequisite: Athletic, Improved Strength. Effect: Your character gets a +2 bonus on his strength score. Special: A fighter can select this feat as one of his bonus feats. Greater Agility Training Your character has managed to merge practical application, experience, and training into a strict regiment which improves her dexterity dramatically. Prerequisite: Agile, Improved Dexterity. Effect: Your character gets a +2 bonus on her dexterity score. Special: A fighter can select this feat as one of his bonus feats. Greater Agility Training Your character has managed to merge practical application, experience, and training into a strict regiment which improves his dexterity dramatically. Prerequisite: Toughness, Improved Health. Effect: Your character gets a +2 bonus on his constitution score. Special: A fighter can select this feat as one of his bonus feats. Greater Intelligence Training [Psionic] Your character has managed to merge practical application, experience, and training into a strict regiment which improves her intelligence dramatically. Prerequisite: Educated, Improved Intelligence Effect: Your character gets a +2 bonus on her Intelligence score. Special: A Wizard can select this feat as a bonus feat. Greater Wisdom Training [Psionic] Your character has managed to merge practical application, experience, and training into a strict regiment which improves his intelligence dramatically. Prerequisite: Alertness, Improved Wisdom Effect: Your character gets a +2 bonus on her Wisdom score. Greater Charisma Training [Psionic] Your character has managed to merge practical application, experience, and training into a strict regiment which improves her charisma dramatically. Prerequisite: Persuasive, Improved Charisma. Effect: Your character gets a +2 bonus on her charisma score. Special: A Sorcerer can select this feat as a bonus feat. I know these would be pretty overpowered in a normal campaign, but my campaign is a gestalt one so the characters are already pretty strong.
tarkin 08-28-07, 01:00 PM	Normally characters gain +1 to a stat every 4 levels. They get a feat every two levels. To me that indicates that +1 to a stat should be better than what a single feat can do. You want +2. I would describe your feats as Epic feats. If you are playing in an Epic game, it should be OK. Otherwise, it sounds too powerfull.
Teh_username 08-28-07, 01:06 PM	I would describe your feats as Epic feats. Actually, they're twice as powerful as Epic Feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#greatCharisma). Yes, Virginia, that means your series of feats would be overpowered.
NobodyRemembersThis 08-28-07, 01:10 PM	Have the second tier grant a +2 to ability checks, not the actual ability. Then, have the 3rd in a string provide a +1 to a stat. A 3 tier (skill feat, ability check feat, stat boost) should be ok for a gestalt game.
wonlee76 08-28-07, 01:32 PM	Or since you're playing gestalt and apparently you do want your PCs to be powerful on top of the benefits of gestalt, may as well just give him a higher point buy for stats (or more favorable dice rolling method for stats if you dice roll) so they start with higher stats instead of going through the hassle of a feat chain.
Cosmetor 08-28-07, 03:08 PM	Have the second tier grant a +2 to ability checks, not the actual ability. Then, have the 3rd in a string provide a +1 to a stat. A 3 tier (skill feat, ability check feat, stat boost) should be ok for a gestalt game. That should actually work, thanks.
Cosmetor 08-28-07, 03:27 PM	Actually, they're twice as powerful as Epic Feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#greatCharisma). Yes, Virginia, that means your series of feats would be overpowered. There was no need for that snide/hostile comment. Please apologize.
Mousse 08-28-07, 04:31 PM	Honestly, they are pretty far from overpowered feats. People seem to be overlooking that you really have to take three feats total to get that lovable little +2, and two of those feats are the sort of feats that you think very long and very hard about actually taking. You really only can take them with ease if you happen to have a ton of feats to burn, because you are essentially sacrificing three feat slots for a singular +2 bonus. And, really, comparing them to epic feats is pretty silly. Epic feats are VERY hit and miss, with some being utterly useless, some being rather powerful and many being replicated at far below epic levels.
StruckingFuggle 08-28-07, 05:17 PM	Actually, they're twice as powerful as Epic Feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#greatCharisma). Yes, Virginia, that means your series of feats would be overpowered. Assuming, of course, that all epic feats are properly epic and not vastly underpowered for their designation. coughTwoWeaponRendcoughLegendaryLeaperc ough
bkdubs123 08-28-07, 05:48 PM	Honestly, they are pretty far from overpowered feats. People seem to be overlooking that you really have to take three feats total to get that lovable little +2, and two of those feats are the sort of feats that you think very long and very hard about actually taking. You really only can take them with ease if you happen to have a ton of feats to burn, because you are essentially sacrificing three feat slots for a singular +2 bonus. And, really, comparing them to epic feats is pretty silly. Epic feats are VERY hit and miss, with some being utterly useless, some being rather powerful and many being replicated at far below epic levels. You missed the part where the only prereq's he had for the +2 bonus to a stat was something like Atheletics. To be fair however, I'm still not sure if I would take them (even in their "overpowered" versions). They're cool and all, but when I select feats I generally select feats that offer me functionality and mechanical versatility. These offer nothing but a boost in power (that I can just spend gold pieces on).
wonlee76 08-28-07, 07:42 PM	Keep in mind the original drafts of these feats which were edited out was basically a feat that granted a +2 bonus to an attribute that was stackable up to a maximum of +6 bonus to a stat with no meaningful pre-requisite. I think the OP's post was edited after NobodyRemembersThis's suggestion which I think is a good one.
StruckingFuggle 08-28-07, 08:07 PM	On the other hand, considering the things you can do with some feats... ... I was going to ask "it's not necessarily that overpowered at the cost, is it?", but then I figure three feats for +3 to your casting stat (whee for improved DCs and more spells known) ... actually, I'm not sure how good it really is, compared to other feats you could take... hm.
NobodyRemembersThis 08-28-07, 10:28 PM	My only other comment is the +2 ti stat based skill checks should not be selectable more than once. That would mean that a Diplomancer gets an additional +6 bonus to an otherwise alrady broken skill. Without ranks, that total can be +9. (Skill Focus [Diplomacy], Charismatic, Charismatic, Charismatic) So, a Human could have a +21 to diplomacy at level 9 with this build. Without taking into account the actual Charisma Score or Synergy Bonuses. It would be nothing to get a +30 by Level 10. Keep in mind that that means that you would only need a 5 to end any combat - to change from Hostile to Indifferent. While this is largely a problem with Diplomacy, it shows why the middle tier shouldn't be stackable. :) Oh, and renmame the middle tiers: Strong Dextrous Hardy Smart Intuitive Charismatic It gives the feats a little more flavor. :)
Part-Human2 08-29-07, 12:09 AM	Skill Focus is +3 to one skill. There are many feats that give +2 to two skills. Your "Improved X" feats give +2 to a slew of different skills so they're too powerful. +2 to an ability score is twice the bonus that the Epic "Great X" feats provide so your "Greater X Training" feats are too powerful too.
Dog_O_War 08-29-07, 12:19 AM	I think your improved feats have great promise, given their prerequisites. Two things I'd change about them are the specials (being able to be taken more than once becomes too powerful when it is applied to an entire range of skills) and their names; maybe something with a little more flavor than the generic 'improved'. An example could be 'Robust' instead of 'improved health'.
EjoThims 08-29-07, 08:54 AM	2 underpowered feats to take an overpowered one that give less benefit to the players in a high powered game than the high powered stat buy would? Not unbalanced at all in a gestalt campaign. For normal play they're a bit iffy, but the comparison to the epci feats is totally irrelevant. Epic feats are largely trash, and we have many, many examples of 100% official feats that can be taken as early as 9th evel being downright superior to the equivalent epic feat.
Cosmetor 08-29-07, 12:12 PM	Yeah, I know the flavor needs a bit of work, thanks for the suggestions, they are just a draft so far. And the stacking thing with the second tier of feats was unintentional, I just was strapped for time so didn't edit those parts out completely like I should have.
Novem 08-29-07, 12:22 PM	Actually, they're twice as powerful as Epic Feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#greatCharisma). Yes, Virginia, that means your series of feats would be overpowered. I disagree. The epic ability feats are incredibly weak for any feats, let alone epic. I like these, and may adopt them for my game.
Cosmetor 08-30-07, 12:55 PM	Up.
Part-Human2 08-30-07, 04:15 PM	If people have problem with Epic feats, change the Epic feats for your game -- no need to make up homebrew feats. If "underpowered" feats are a problem, then change those too.
Tedronai 08-30-07, 10:28 PM	Those skill feats vary greatly in usefulness. I could never see anyone taking Robust, but knowledge monkeys would jump on Intelligence Training, and most skill-heavy rogues would take at least one of those (either Intelligence Training, Incredible Agility, or Inner Personality)
fenixs11 09-10-07, 02:41 AM	Robust Your character has trained vigorously to improve his stamina. Prerequisite: Toughness Effect: Your character gains a +2 bonus to his constitution based skill checks, and on rolls to keep from being fatigued or exhausted. hmmm... how many skill checks involve constitution again??? and for that matter, checks involving fatigue/non-lethal damage/suffocation/starvation...etc... endurance offers a +4, and you can sleep in light/medium armor. and it has NO prerequisits which brings up the next thing Prerequisite: toughness which gives you +3hp... unless you're planning on taking 'greater toughness' this feat is pretty much useless.
demi d20 09-11-07, 09:39 AM	What you need to remember about the Epic "Great XX" feats is that the reason those are 'Epic' is that you can take them more than once. His feats, you cannot.