Post/Author/DateTime	Post
xAndurilx 09-20-07, 12:16 PM	The rules are kinda ambiguous when combining these two actions. :confused: From the SRD: _______ Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. However, it carries tight restrictions on how you can move. Movement During a Charge You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Here’s what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge.) Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. (Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.) If you don’t have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can’t charge that opponent. You can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge. If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn. _________ When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can’t use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor. You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack.
Matthew77 09-20-07, 12:27 PM	Charging is a special full-round action When using the attack action with a melee weapon Charging is a full round action. When you are charging you are not "using the attack action", because you have spent your full round using the "charge action" instead. Thus, you cannot use spring attack while charging. Spring attack can only be used with the specific standard action "attack." It cannot be used with any other standard action (like manyshot or casting a spell), and it cannot be used with any full round action (like a charge or a full attack).
xAndurilx 09-20-07, 12:37 PM	Charging is a full round action. When you are charging you are not "using the attack action", because you have spent your full round using the "charge action" instead. Thus, you cannot use spring attack while charging. Spring attack can only be used with the specific standard action "attack." It cannot be used with any other standard action (like manyshot or casting a spell), and it cannot be used with any full round action (like a charge or a full attack). ...so you're saying you cant disarm, sunder, or trip an opponent when making a full attack... I completely disagree with this argument. What seems to be the problem with Charging and Spring Attack is the section of the Charge text that says a character "must move before the attack, but not after." Despite this, Spring Attack specifically states that you may move before and after an attack. But doesnt a Feat supercedes an action?
Crimson_Concerto 09-20-07, 12:54 PM	Charging is a full round action, in which an attack action is included. Spring Attacking is an attack action and a move action, which usually takes up an entire turn. Actions taken up are incompatible and add up to too many in one round, so you can't do both. Charging is a full round action. When you are charging you are not "using the attack action", because you have spent your full round using the "charge action" instead. Thus, you cannot use spring attack while charging.Actually, the Charge action includes an attack action within it... But yeah, the rest of what you said it right.
Eerongal 09-20-07, 12:58 PM	...so you're saying you cant disarm, sunder, or trip an opponent when making a full attack... I completely disagree with this argument. What seems to be the problem with Charging and Spring Attack is the section of the Charge text that says a character "must move before the attack, but not after." Despite this, Spring Attack specifically states that you may move before and after an attack. But doesnt a Feat supercedes an action? You can disarm, sunder, or trip during a full attack, because a full attack is a special full round action in which you take multiple attack actions. A charge, however, spring attack refers to using: Standard Actions Attack Making an attack is a standard action. Melee Attacks With a normal melee weapon, you can strike any opponent within 5 feet. (Opponents within 5 feet are considered adjacent to you.) Some melee weapons have reach, as indicated in their descriptions. With a typical reach weapon, you can strike opponents 10 feet away, but you can’t strike adjacent foes (those within 5 feet). You are only allowed to spring attack with a standard action melee attack.
Matthew77 09-20-07, 01:04 PM	...so you're saying you cant disarm, sunder, or trip an opponent when making a full attack... Disarm, sunder and trip all replace attacks, it doesn't matter what action you perform that allows you to make this attack. However, Spring Attack requires that you use a specific standard action "attack action" not any type of action that grants you an attack. An "attack action" different from an "attack". The "attack action" is a specific standard action that allows you to make one attack. Other actions such as the Charge action or the Full attack action may allow you to make an attack, (thus meeting the requirements for a trip attack), but they are not the "attack action", therefore they do not meet the requirements for Spring attack.
xAndurilx 09-20-07, 01:23 PM	Charge action is a full action which includes an attack action and a move. Spring Attack requires an attack action and a move. You can Charge while disarming, triping, sundering etc. and thus, I argue, with Spring Attack.
Matthew77 09-20-07, 01:28 PM	Charge action is a full action which includes an attack action and a move. This is where the confusion lies. Charge does not include a move action and an attack action. Charge includes movement and an attack. Attack does not equal attack action. An attack action allows you to make an attack, but not all attacks are automatically attack actions. Apple trees give you fruit, but not all fruit comes from apple trees. Trip and disarm require attacks, so you can do them with attack actions or charge actions. Trip and disarm require fruit, so you can do them with Apple trees or Orange trees. Spring attack requires an attack action, so even though a charge action gives you an attack, it won't let you spring attack. Spring attack requires an Apple tree, so even though an Orange tree gives you fruit, it won't let you spring attack.
Tsuul 09-20-07, 01:32 PM	Charge action is a full action which includes an attack action and a move.A double move with restrictions. The whole charging in a straight line gets foiled, doesn't it, when you get blocked by an opponent. How do you retreat forward?
tarkin 09-20-07, 01:33 PM	Can't you people read the SRD? You must move at least5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack. Movement During a Charge You must move before your attack, not after. You are not allowed to move after you attack when doing a charge. You are required to move after you attack when doing a Spring Attack. No Spring Attack + Charge allowed. At least not without some special feat/ability/house rule. Nothing about Spring Attack lets you change the requirements of charging. The Charge requirement does not go away simply because you dislike it.
xAndurilx 09-20-07, 01:36 PM	A double move with restrictions. The whole charging in a straight line gets foiled, doesn't it, when you get blocked by an opponent. How do you retreat forward? The double move is optional. Only 10 feet is required.
xAndurilx 09-20-07, 01:39 PM	This is where the confusion lies. Charge does not include a move action and an attack action. Charge includes movement and an attack. Attack does not equal attack action. An attack action allows you to make an attack, but not all attacks are automatically attack actions. Apple trees give you fruit, but not all fruit comes from apple trees. Trip and disarm require attacks, so you can do them with attack actions or charge actions. Trip and disarm require fruit, so you can do them with Apple trees or Orange trees. Spring attack requires an attack action, so even though a charge action gives you an attack, it won't let you spring attack. Spring attack requires an Apple tree, so even though an Orange tree gives you fruit, it won't let you spring attack. Lol I really like your analogies. Makes a lot of sense. Ill have to read up on Attack Actions to see if its possible to counter this arguement. Thanks for the input!
xAndurilx 09-20-07, 01:44 PM	Can't you people read the SRD? You are not allowed to move after you attack when doing a charge. You are required to move after you attack when doing a Spring Attack. No Spring Attack + Charge allowed. At least not without some special feat/ability/house rule. Nothing about Spring Attack lets you change the requirements of charging. The Charge requirement does not go away simply because you dislike it. My arguement included this. Spring Attack ALLOWS you to move before and after an attack - normally not possible unless you have this Feat. I argued that a Feat supersedes the rules of an attack.
xAndurilx 09-20-07, 01:51 PM	Mathew, I found it :) There are 6 different types of actions, none of which are an attack action. An attack action may be used with a Standard action or a Full round action. This is further implied by the section in bold below: Full Attack If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones. The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks. If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first. Deciding between an Attack or a Full Attack After your first attack, you can decide to take a move action instead of making your remaining attacks, depending on how the first attack turns out. If you’ve already taken a 5-foot step, you can’t use your move action to move any distance, but you could still use a different kind of move action.
Matthew77 09-20-07, 02:11 PM	Mathew, I found it :) There are 6 different types of actions, none of which are an attack action. Oh, there are way more than 6 different types of actions. Look at the table: standard actions in the SRD. It won't cut and paste well, but the link I'm using is http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#standardActions Each entry on that table is a different action. There's the "bull rush action" the "aid another action" And the very top entry is the "attack action." Deciding between an Attack or a Full Attack After your first attack, you can decide to take a move action instead of making your remaining attacks, depending on how the first attack turns out. If you’ve already taken a 5-foot step, you can’t use your move action to move any distance, but you could still use a different kind of move action. This is an interesting rule. Under my "attack action" interpretation, this is a special rule that allows you to declare a "full attack action" as your action, then abort the action after making your first attack and reclaim your move action. However, what about the case if you are two-weapon fighting with the -2 penalty? In this case, if you declare the standard action "attack action" you can make one attack without the penalty. But if you declared the full round action "full attack action" and took one attack, then aborted the rest of your attacks to make a move action, you would still have had to take the -2 penalty on that single attack. I mention this because even though the full attack action has some special rules that allow you to get a benefit from not completing it, it is still not the same as the distinct standard action "attack action." I know that was really confusing, but we are splitting some pretty fine hairs now. I wish the 3.5 rulebook had not used so many similar terms for different things, like "attack" vs "attack action" or the handful of things that "level" might mean. It would make parsing the rules much easier :)
Archangel_Tyrael 09-20-07, 02:18 PM	Listen people, Tarkin got this one in his post, but I'll post it again. Movement During a Charge You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. So... you CAN NOT move after a charge. Spring Attack [General] Prerequisites Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +4. Benefit When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can’t use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor. You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack. Special A fighter may select Spring Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats. So... to make a Spring Attack, you MUST move after the attack. The two abilities are incompatible.
tarkin 09-20-07, 02:27 PM	My arguement included this. Spring Attack ALLOWS you to move before and after an attack - normally not possible unless you have this Feat. I argued that a Feat supersedes the rules of an attack. That would be wrong. There is no rule that says feats lets you to ignore all other rules of the game. You can not for example say "Well, I have Spring Attack, so I can make an attack even though my character is tied up, in chains, asleep, and dominated by the enemey." Feats do specific things. They do NOT let you ignore all other rules that also prevent something. They DO let you ignore specific rules that the MENTION. Real life example: There is a law that states all black men have the right to vote. Would that law also make it legal for a DEAD black man to vote? No. Feats do what they say they do, nothing more. Yes a feat COULD over-ride an existing rule. It would say so. Other existing examples in the PHB: Combat Reflexes [General] Benefit You may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity equal to your Dexterity bonus. With this feat, you may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed. First, note that this feat specifically lets you make an AoO while flat footed. It MENTIONS the rule it over-rides. Second note that the feat does not mention ranged weapons. For this reason, it means that no, the feat does not grant you an AoO when using a ranged weapon. Yes, the feat lets you make AoOs, but it says nothing about ranged weapons, so that does not change. Similarly Spring Attack does let you (and require you to) move both before and after an attack but it does NOT say anything Charge requirements. In other words your basic idea is wrong. There is no rule at all about "feats over-riding other things".
Matthew77 09-20-07, 02:27 PM	Listen people, Tarkin got this one in his post, but I'll post it again. So... you CAN NOT move after a charge. So... to make a Spring Attack, you MUST move after the attack. The two abilities are incompatible. I agree with your conclusion, but I think this is a flawed argument. Moving before and after an attack is a benefit of Spring attack, not a requirement. Normally, one cannot move, make an attack, and move again. But clearly, spring attack allows this. Normally, one cannot charge, and move again. But, why can't spring attack allow this? Simply repeating that a normal charge does not allow you to move afterwards does not prove that a "spring charge" is impossible. To prove this assertion, you must show that (move and attack) is different from (charge). This line from Spring attack is poorly written: You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack. Taken exactly as it is worded, this line makes Spring Attack worthless, because in order to use the feat, you must already be able to do what the feat would allow you to do. The only way to move before and after an attack is to somehow get a second move action in the same turn. Or to use spring attack. But you can't use the benefits of spring attack unless you can move before and after an attack. The logic you are using to prove you can't use Spring attack with a charge, also proves that you can't use spring attack with a single attack action. Would you also argue that a Psionic Warrior cannot use the power "Hustle" to do a Charge and then move away? Or that the Belt of Battle from MIC that grants an extra move action cannot be used to move after a charge? Or that the "ride by attack" feat doesn't work because you must not move after a charge? Since there are multiple exceptions to the rule that you can't move after a charge, you need different logic to prove that Spring Attack is not one of those exceptions.
UltimateGnome 09-20-07, 03:00 PM	Can't you people read the SRD? You are not allowed to move after you attack when doing a charge. You are required to move after you attack when doing a Spring Attack. No Spring Attack + Charge allowed. At least not without some special feat/ability/house rule. Nothing about Spring Attack lets you change the requirements of charging. The Charge requirement does not go away simply because you dislike it. I'm not entirely sure that's what that sentence is really saying though. I definitely can see how it could be interpreted as such but really it should say You must move before your attack, but not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. I think the "not after" part was merely defining that you can't take the move part after you attack. Though attacking and then "charging" wouldn't make too much sense anyways. It was there to emphasize that you couldn't attack and then "charge" (move) towards another target. I don't see it as clearly stating that you can't move afterwards.
xAndurilx 09-20-07, 03:05 PM	Mathew, I totally agree with you on the ambiguity of 3.5 :) Thank god for 4th E, eh? The action types I was refering to was from the SRD: "There are six types of actions: standard actions, move actions, full-round actions, free actions, swift actions, and immediate actions." As far as I can see the "attack action" refers simply to an attack (melee, unarmed, or range) and can be included in Standard Attacks, Full-Round actions, or even Free actions in some cases (the quick dagger fling feat comes to mind). Another ambiguity of 3.5? :weep: P.S. thanks for being fair - most of the time on this forum people let their ego's get in the way of sound arguements :)
EvilVegan 09-20-07, 03:15 PM	Spring attack When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can’t use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor. You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack. ... Full round actions (of which Charge is one) A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can’t be coupled with a standard or a move action, though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can take a 5-foot step. ... Standard actions Attack Making an attack is a standard action. ... Move actions Move The simplest move action is moving your speed. ... SPECIAL ATTACKS (MEANING NOT STANDARD ONES, THESE HAVE SPECIAL RULES) Bull rush You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge. Disarm As a melee attack, you may attempt to disarm your opponent. Sunder You can use a melee attack with a slashing/bludgeoning weapon to strike. . . Trip You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack. ...................... Notice that the special attacks either specify a standard action or a type of melee attack. Melee attacks can be used to replace any attack that is a melee attack, whether from full attacks, charges, spring attacks etc. However, the attack ACTION is always a standard action. Spring attack lets you perform this specific standard action to make an attack with a melee weapon. This completely negates the option to use a full-round action to charge. Spring attack is still a move action + a standard action, it just allows you to take a specific type of standard action during the movement. A charge on the other hand is a full round action that includes two full movements and a melee attack. Regardless of what you feel spring attack does or does not change, it is still a standard action to make an attack action and it still using a move action to move up to your speed. So no, you cannot combine spring attack and charge. You may be able to spring attack and bullrush though. . .
xAndurilx 09-20-07, 03:32 PM	Spring attack When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can’t use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor. You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack. ... Full round actions (of which Charge is one) A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can’t be coupled with a standard or a move action, though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can take a 5-foot step. ... Standard actions Attack Making an attack is a standard action. ... Move actions Move The simplest move action is moving your speed. ... SPECIAL ATTACKS (MEANING NOT STANDARD ONES, THESE HAVE SPECIAL RULES) Bull rush You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge. Disarm As a melee attack, you may attempt to disarm your opponent. Sunder You can use a melee attack with a slashing/bludgeoning weapon to strike. . . Trip You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack. ...................... Notice that the special attacks either specify a standard action or a type of melee attack. Melee attacks can be used to replace any attack that is a melee attack, whether from full attacks, charges, spring attacks etc. However, the attack ACTION is always a standard action. Spring attack lets you perform this specific standard action to make an attack with a melee weapon. This completely negates the option to use a full-round action to charge. Spring attack is still a move action + a standard action, it just allows you to take a specific type of standard action during the movement. A charge on the other hand is a full round action that includes two full movements and a melee attack. Regardless of what you feel spring attack does or does not change, it is still a standard action to make an attack action and it still using a move action to move up to your speed. So no, you cannot combine spring attack and charge. You may be able to spring attack and bullrush though. . . ...again with this attack action... :( Why couldnt they say "Standard Action" instead of "attack action"!!!! Is there anywhere else that specifically says "attack action?" :confused: I know on the tables it says Action: Attack.... ...but it also says "Light a torch with a tindertwig". So is there a "Light a torch with a tindertwig Action"...
Finarin Panjoro 09-20-07, 03:50 PM	I disagree that the rules are ambiguous about whether this is possible or not. I think its pretty clear that you cannot combine Spring Attack with a charge. Charge is a full round action and Spring Attack requires a move and attack action (which is a standard action). They're mutually exclusive. It's the same reason you can't combine Manyshot and Rapid Shot, they require different, mutually exclusive, action types to use. That being said the only question that matters is: What does your DM think? If he thinks it's okay, then it is.
Matthew77 09-20-07, 03:55 PM	...but it also says "Light a torch with a tindertwig". So is there a "Light a torch with a tindertwig Action"... IMO, yes. Everything on that table should have the word "action" appended to the end of it, that's the only way it makes sense to distinguish between an "attack" and an "attack action". I wish they had called it a "basic strike action" or something instead of re-using the word "attack", but that's the way it is. Why couldnt they say "Standard Action" instead of "attack action"!!!! In the spring attack description? Because they wanted to restrict it to one specific type of standard action. If spring attack just said "standard action" you would see every blaster taking it so they could move out from cover, cast a fireball, and move back into cover.
EvilVegan 09-20-07, 04:05 PM	...again with this attack action... :( Why couldnt they say "Standard Action" instead of "attack action"!!!! Is there anywhere else that specifically says "attack action?" :confused: I know on the tables it says Action: Attack.... ...but it also says "Light a torch with a tindertwig". So is there a "Light a torch with a tindertwig Action"...Because they didn't want people using spring attack to light a torch with a tindertwig (among other things) Spring attack lets you perform the standard action "attack", that's it. It doesn't let you perform any other standard action. Look at flyby attack: Flyby Attack [General] Prerequisite Fly speed. Benefit When flying, the creature can take a move action (including a dive) and another standard action at any point during the move. The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack. Normal Without this feat, the creature takes a standard action either before or after its move. Flyby attack lets you do any standard action (cast a spell, attack, bullrush, light a cigarette) during your move. You still provoke for movement. You still can't combine it with a charge. Kind of silly. Improved flyby attack lets you do it without provoking. Which is almost the same as spring attack, but a standard action still. The reason I bring it up is that flyby attack explicitly is a standard action, and shows by example that spring attack is also intended to be a standard action, though limited to the "attack action" only.
Dheran 09-20-07, 04:27 PM	tarkin has correctly made the two most important arguments about why you can't charge and Spring Attack together: The charge and Spring Attack movement requirements are in conflict. The Spring Attack feat description doesn't specify any exception specifically overriding the charge movement requirement. So why isn't this discussion over? It's because Spring Attack is arguably the worst-written feat in all of D&D.Spring Attack [General] Benefit: When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can’t use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor. You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack. Here's what's confusing about Spring Attack: There's no definition of "attack action" in D&D. It's not in the Glossary, and the only place the phrase appears in the Combat chapter which defines actions is as part of "full attack action". People can point at what they think, in a roundabout fashion, is equivalent to defining the term, but that simple two-word phrase doesn't have a single unambiguous definition. A "melee weapon" might or might not include unarmed attacks, depending on whether you look in the Glossary, Equipment chapter, or Combat chapter. The feat says you can "move" both before and after your attack. It states this as part of the Benefit description, so is this move in addition to that normally allowed in a round? Nowhere does it state what type of action is used to Spring Attack. Is this movement (which might, or might not, be a split move action) and an attack (which might, or might not, be a standard action)? an attack (which might, or might not, be a standard action) with bonus movement? a special full-round action? movement (which might, or might not, be a split move action) with bonus attack? All of these theories have been put forth at various times, and I've ranked them in decreasing order of popularity. (Personally I also favor the first choice, but I recognize the ambiguity.) There's no "Normal" statement to contrast with the "Benefit" statement in the feat description. This means we're forced to play guessing games about which part(s) of the normal rules the feat is overriding. Interpret enough of these ambiguities in the way you'd like, and maybe you have a case. Specifically for xAndurilx: an attack which isn't a standard action (so a charge qualifies); free movement that you can throw in at the end (to meet the feat's requirement); and take the absence of a "Normal" statement to indicate an override of all normal D&D rules (the whopper which wraps things up). It's a very weak case, but that the case exists at all is entirely the fault of Spring Attack's author.
Archangel_Tyrael 09-20-07, 06:35 PM	There's no definition of "attack action" in D&D. It's not in the Glossary, and the only place the phrase appears in the Combat chapter which defines actions is as part of "full attack action". People can point at what they think, in a roundabout fashion, is equivalent to defining the term, but that simple two-word phrase doesn't have a single unambiguous definition. Attack, Melee (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#meleeAttacks) It's on the table labeled "Standard Actions". A "melee weapon" might or might not include unarmed attacks, depending on whether you look in the Glossary, Equipment chapter, or Combat chapter. I found this. Unarmed Strike A Medium character deals 1d3 points of nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike. A Small character deals 1d2 points of nonlethal damage. A monk or any character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat can deal lethal or nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes, at her option. The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls. An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike. The feat says you can "move" both before and after your attack. It states this as part of the Benefit description, so is this move in addition to that normally allowed in a round? You've got to finish that sentence, Dheran. :P Benefit: When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. This feat doesn't give you an extra move action--was that what you were thinking? Nowhere does it state what type of action is used to Spring Attack. Huh... very true. But, then again, Spring attack isn't really an action at all, it's a special kind of Attack (Melee). Attack (Melee) = Standard Action (One attack, NO SPECIAL ATTACKS, NO TRIPS OR GRAPPLES) Moving up to your speed = Move Action Here's the deal: Charge Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. However, it carries tight restrictions on how you can move. Just because of that line would be the first reason it doesn't work. Unless somehow you made twice your normal speed equal to a move action... :/
kalstrand 09-20-07, 06:57 PM	There's no definition of "attack action" in D&D. It's not in the Glossary, and the only place the phrase appears in the Combat chapter which defines actions is as part of "full attack action". People can point at what they think, in a roundabout fashion, is equivalent to defining the term, but that simple two-word phrase doesn't have a single unambiguous definition. Just over halfway down on the left hand colum of page 139 in the PHB you will find in all caps and blue font Standard Actions. It then gives a short description of what a standard action could be. Just below this description it starts a list of standard actions the first of which is called Attack (also in blue font.) It then goes on at length describing the Attack Action. The description goes through page 139 onto page 140 where it ends approximately halfway through the left hand column where it is followed by another standard action called Cast a Spell which is also found in blue font. There is your definition of the Attack Action.
xAndurilx 09-20-07, 07:09 PM	Just over halfway down on the left hand colum of page 139 in the PHB you will find in all caps and blue font Standard Actions. It then gives a short description of what a standard action could be. Just below this description it starts a list of standard actions the first of which is called Attack (also in blue font.) It then goes on at length describing the Attack Action. The description goes through page 139 onto page 140 where it ends approximately halfway through the left hand column where it is followed by another standard action called Cast a Spell which is also found in blue font. There is your definition of the Attack Action. So are you saying that an Attack Action is only EXCLUSIVELY a Standard Action?
Tsuul 09-20-07, 07:23 PM	So why isn't this discussion over? It's because Spring Attack is arguably the worst-written feat in all of D&D.It very well may be. However, it is important to note that this thread is using the oldest form of Spring attack written. The latest is in the leather bound version of the PHB. And, unfortunately, its wording hasn't made it to the SRD.
Nom 09-20-07, 08:26 PM	So are you saying that an Attack Action is only EXCLUSIVELY a Standard Action?Yes. But there are a large number of other actions, and even non-actions, that grant one or more attacks. If it says "attack action", it means that specific standard action (hence why a lot of feats and abilities read "attack action or full attack action"). If it just says "attack", it means any time you need to make an attack roll, including attack actions, full attack actions, charges, AoOs, Manyshot, or a touch attack from a spell. Note that some of these might be ineligible due to requirements for a specific weapon or attack type. Comment: While the "attack" vs "attack action" might not be as clear from the rules as it could be, I've not found any situation where using this terminology distinction causes conflicts in rules interpretation. In contrast, insisting that no such distinction exists (even though it appears frequently in the FAQ and other official commentary) causes numerous conflicts that could be solved simply if it were accepted.
yrogerg 09-20-07, 09:21 PM	Normally, one cannot charge, and move again. But, why can't spring attack allow this? Because it doesn't say so? Feats in D&D do what they say they do, no more. That's the point of the legalese that makes up the rules text. Simply repeating that a normal charge does not allow you to move afterwards does not prove that a "spring charge" is impossible. To prove this assertion, you must show that (move and attack) is different from (charge). It is. They're different sets of actions. Charge is a special, full-round action, which is why it allows you to move far further than you would with a single move action, why it gives you a bonus to attack and penalty to AC, and why it requires you to move a certain distance, in a straight line, over non-difficult terrain. Moving and attacking as a move and standard action, respectively, don't let or require you to do *any* of these things. Not to mention the fact that the argument you're making here, "Charging is the same as moving and attacking", also lets you apply Powerful Charge *any* time you move and attack, for example. This is madness. This line from Spring attack is poorly written: Taken exactly as it is worded, this line makes Spring Attack worthless, because in order to use the feat, you must already be able to do what the feat would allow you to do. The only way to move before and after an attack is to somehow get a second move action in the same turn. Or to use spring attack. But you can't use the benefits of spring attack unless you can move before and after an attack. Yes. You take the feat. In order to use it, and gain all the benefits, you must use the entire feat. If you choose not to use it, you don't gain any of the benefits provided. The specific thing that this means you *can't* do without Springing is this line: Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack When using spring attack, you avoid the normal AoOs for closing with creatures that threaten adjacent squares, such as larger-than-medium creatures. You cannot, however, use Spring Attack to close, make an attack, and then say, "Y'know, I think I'll just stay here now." You must move at least five feet after the attack. Seems straightfoward enough. The logic you are using to prove you can't use Spring attack with a charge, also proves that you can't use spring attack with a single attack action. How to you get that? Spring Attack *says* that it does the latter. The argument for the former is based on the assumption that Spring Attack overrides a rule that it never says it does, based on the fact that the requirements for using one contradict the requirements for using the other. Would you also argue that a Psionic Warrior cannot use the power "Hustle" to do a Charge and then move away? Or that the Belt of Battle from MIC that grants an extra move action cannot be used to move after a charge? Actually, read literally, no, it looks like they won't. What now? :P While *I* would still allow them to do so, on the grounds that letting a per-day ability let you do this and still draw AoOs as normal is less of a concern balance-wise than Spring-Charging, this would be solidly houserule territory, and I would allow it with full awareness that I was diverging from the RAW on this. Or that the "ride by attack" feat doesn't work because you must not move after a charge?Except that Ride-by attack *EXPLCITLY* says that that's what it lets you do. Spring attack doesn't mention charges at all, whereas Ride-by-attack only operates when you use a charge action while mounted. This, my friend, is the proverbial exception that proves the rule. If Spring Attack was meant to work the same way, they would have said so. Just like they did with Ride-by Attack Since there are multiple exceptions to the rule that you can't move after a charge, you need different logic to prove that Spring Attack is not one of those exceptions. The only exception I see here (other than ones I would personally create as DM, explicitly in variance to the RAW) is Ride-by Attack. And it's an exception because *it says so*. Spring Attack may be a similar sort of feat, but it *doesn't say so*. We're supposed to interpret that anything that's not included in rules text is intentionally excluded, and in this case, the fact that a similarly-worded feat discusses charges and this one doesn't cements that point.
Matthew77 09-21-07, 10:36 AM	Would you also argue that a Psionic Warrior cannot use the power "Hustle" to do a Charge and then move away? Or that the Belt of Battle from MIC that grants an extra move action cannot be used to move after a charge? Actually, read literally, no, it looks like they won't. What now? :P At least you are consistent in your logic :) Personally, I give less weight to the "must not move after" line in the charge description. IMO, that is the rule for a normal charge, and any number of special abilities or situations can override that restriction. This is why I use the "attack action" vs "attack" argument to disallow a spring charge, instead of your argument.
Dheran 09-21-07, 10:46 AM	However, it is important to note that this thread is using the oldest form of Spring attack written. The latest is in the leather bound version of the PHB. And, unfortunately, its wording hasn't made it to the SRD. Well, don't just tease us, Tsuul! What parts of this version are different?
EvilVegan 09-21-07, 10:49 AM	If an ability is a swift action, it doesn't override the charge requirement of "must not move after". "Must not move after" refers specifically to the amount of movement you can make during the special full round action, not during the round itself (if you have an ability to move as a swift action for example). So hustle still works fine before or after a charge. Charge in-hustle out is a fully legal and sound tactic. You do still provoke for movement. It still doesn't change spring attack to a free action, or whatever the OP is trying to claim it is. You can't spring attack and then charge, you can't charge during a spring attack, you can't move then spring attack, you can't spring attack then spring attack. Spring attack at no time overrides the standard round: Swift actions/free actions Move action + Standard action OR Full Round action Spring attack doesn't use the word "standard" in its description, but it does mention "attack action" which is a "standard action" which means you still have a "move action" and any "swift/free actions", but does not let you perform "full round action while performing a move action and an attack action". That is just the way actions work in d20.
xAndurilx 09-21-07, 12:14 PM	Im still hung up on this whole Attack Action vs Attack bit: So, under "Deciding between an Attack and a Full Attack" (why doesnt the title say Attack Action???) in the SRD, it not only makes this Attack Action a Full Round action, but it also gives no mention of "Attack Actions" what-so-ever. Heres the Kicker: EVEN IF IT WAS A STANDARD ACTION, WHY COULDNT YOU USE AN ATTACK ACTION WITH A FULL ROUND ACTION (I.E. Full Attack)? You can do that with Sunder, which is also listed under Standard Actions And what is this whole footer in the SRD on the Full Round Action column that says a Charge "may be taken as a standard action if you are limited to taking only a single action in a round." -this just confuses the matter!
Eerongal 09-21-07, 12:25 PM	Im still hung up on this whole Attack Action vs Attack bit: So, under "Deciding between an Attack and a Full Attack" (why doesnt the title say Attack Action???) in the SRD, it not only makes this Attack Action a Full Round action, but it also gives no mention of "Attack Actions" what-so-ever. Heres the Kicker: EVEN IF IT WAS A STANDARD ACTION, WHY COULDNT YOU USE AN ATTACK ACTION WITH A FULL ATTACK? my 2 cents: Because the word action is implied, because there is no such thing as a "Full attack vs Full attack action". And you can't. An attack action is a standard action. Full attack action is a full round action. You cannot use an attack action with a full attack action. Really, you're complicating the issue further than you need to with semantics. You can do that with Sunder, which is also listed under Standard Actions And what is this whole footer in the SRD on the Full Round Action column that says a Charge "may be taken as a standard action if you are limited to taking only a single action in a round." -this just confuses the matter! And sunder is listed on standard actions with (attack) in parenthesis, because it can be used as a standard action as part of an attack action. The special restriction on charge ONLY applies on surprise rounds. That's the only situation i can think of where you are restricted to a single action per round. If you use a move action before hand, you are not restricted to ONLY a single action, you just a have a single action remaning, which is not the same. Hope this helps :)
1 ton ghost 09-21-07, 12:41 PM	this isn't that complex... you CANNOT charge during a Spring Attack. -even if you're not a rules lawyer (and you know who you are) it's fairly well implied in terms of game balance: you are trading extra punch for more distance post-attack, ie) making enemy close more than 5ft. prevents them from Full-Attacking you later. this allows you to take way more advantage of friends w/ delayed/readied actions, cover/concealment, etc. you cannot have your cake and eat it too otherwise everyone would Charge PCs, take the -2 AC, attack, and spring out to nearby 1/4 cover (+2AC) again. it's pretty blatant exploitation of flavor, not to mention an incredibly liberal interpretation of the rules in terms of Full/Move/Standard actions. you're getting either a +2 to land that one good hit, or stressing a more defensive posture by "springing" back. you can't have it both ways. this is why you should judge the battlefield more closely in terms of terrain/cover/tactical modifiers instead of relying on numbers and feats. stats only go so far, creativity will get your further than any feat or ability adjustment -from a purely scientific standpoint, you're charging; straight line, unimpeded and all that. how are you going to abruptly stop and change course? that would be Twisted Charge or some feat/trick combination, yes? even if you were to "spring" out and keep going forward, that's an Overrun, not a spring. -and strict rules interp: Charge is a Full Rnd Action. Spring Attack is 1 move action coupled w/ 1 standard (attack) i'm sure PHB, SRD, and God will back this.
EvilVegan 09-21-07, 03:00 PM	my 2 cents: Because the word action is implied, because there is no such thing as a "Full attack vs Full attack action". And you can't. An attack action is a standard action. Full attack action is a full round action. You cannot use an attack action with a full attack action. Really, you're complicating the issue further than you need to with semantics. And sunder is listed on standard actions with (attack) in parenthesis, because it can be used as a standard action as part of an attack action. The special restriction on charge ONLY applies on surprise rounds. That's the only situation i can think of where you are restricted to a single action per round. If you use a move action before hand, you are not restricted to ONLY a single action, you just a have a single action remaning, which is not the same. Hope this helps :) The other time is being slowed and the like.
Tsuul 09-21-07, 03:04 PM	Well, don't just tease us, Tsuul! What parts of this version are different?I wish I wrote it down when I saw it. If its still at the store when I stop by later, I'll pen it down. I doubt anyone has paid the $75 for it.
Eerongal 09-21-07, 03:26 PM	The other time is being slowed and the like. Too true! I can't believe i forgot about that! Thank you for correcting me!
xAndurilx 09-21-07, 07:58 PM	this isn't that complex... you CANNOT charge during a Spring Attack. -even if you're not a rules lawyer (and you know who you are) it's fairly well implied in terms of game balance: you are trading extra punch for more distance post-attack, ie) making enemy close more than 5ft. prevents them from Full-Attacking you later. this allows you to take way more advantage of friends w/ delayed/readied actions, cover/concealment, etc. you cannot have your cake and eat it too otherwise everyone would Charge PCs, take the -2 AC, attack, and spring out to nearby 1/4 cover (+2AC) again. it's pretty blatant exploitation of flavor, not to mention an incredibly liberal interpretation of the rules in terms of Full/Move/Standard actions. you're getting either a +2 to land that one good hit, or stressing a more defensive posture by "springing" back. you can't have it both ways. this is why you should judge the battlefield more closely in terms of terrain/cover/tactical modifiers instead of relying on numbers and feats. stats only go so far, creativity will get your further than any feat or ability adjustment -from a purely scientific standpoint, you're charging; straight line, unimpeded and all that. how are you going to abruptly stop and change course? that would be Twisted Charge or some feat/trick combination, yes? even if you were to "spring" out and keep going forward, that's an Overrun, not a spring. -and strict rules interp: Charge is a Full Rnd Action. Spring Attack is 1 move action coupled w/ 1 standard (attack) i'm sure PHB, SRD, and God will back this. lol you need to get laid boy. If you're concerned with balance, there are FAR more broken combos. Any other Move, Attack, Move feat lets you charge: Ride-by Attack, Fly-by Attack. So wtf?
yrogerg 09-21-07, 08:53 PM	lol you need to get laid boy. If you're concerned with balance, there are FAR more broken combos. Any other Move, Attack, Move feat lets you charge: Ride-by Attack, Fly-by Attack. So wtf? Fly-by attack doesn't, and you need to take Improved Fly-by (which also doesn't grant this ability), to avoid AoOs like Spring Attack lets you. It's a different feat chain, and it grants different abilities at different times. Ride-by attack explicitly grants the ability to charge. In fact, it *requires* you to make a charge action to benefit from the feat. You can't simply move, attack, and move and benefit from Ride-by. Shot on the Run also doesn't let you charge (which is moot since you can't charge with a ranged weapon anyway), nor does it let you avoid AoOs, even movement-based AoOs. All four of the feats are *very* different, and the only one that lets you charge when using it *requires* you to. How, exactly, does the fact that Ride-by attack *requires* you to use the charge action, and explicitly says so, means that the other three feats, which *never mention* the charge action, *allow* you to. Logic suggests that the opposite is true.
Suzu 09-21-07, 09:10 PM	Charge action is a full action which includes an attack action and a move. Spring Attack requires an attack action and a move. You can Charge while disarming, triping, sundering etc. and thus, I argue, with Spring Attack. You can argue all you like, loverboy. You're still wrong, and stubborn to boot.
Suzu 09-21-07, 09:17 PM	lol you need to get laid boy. And Jesus! Sorry for the double post, but what the hell? You bring up an idiotic argument that clearly implies you are a) A rules lawyer yourself, and b) A retard for failing to understand the rules regardless, and then you have the audacity to speculate on the state of another person's sexual history. What is your problem? Furthermore, since when did "getting laid" make you any less of a geek? Bill Gates is married and has managed to spawn children, but he's the geekiest geek I know of.
yrogerg 09-21-07, 09:26 PM	lol you need to get laid boy. I, for one, get laid regularly. You're still wrong.
Suzu 09-21-07, 09:42 PM	I own a brothel.
1 ton ghost 09-22-07, 12:30 PM	lol you need to get laid boy. If you're concerned with balance, there are FAR more broken combos. Any other Move, Attack, Move feat lets you charge: Ride-by Attack, Fly-by Attack. So wtf? i'll take that up w/ my girlfriend F*ckwit... and i didn't post the rules for your benefit. given your lack of etiquette, class, and intellect, i don't think it would matter anyway. "when i throw a dog a bone, i don't want to know if it tastes good."
Suzu 09-22-07, 12:59 PM	Well said!
Dheran 09-24-07, 01:45 PM	So are you saying that an Attack Action is only EXCLUSIVELY a Standard Action?Yes. Comment: While the "attack" vs "attack action" might not be as clear from the rules as it could be, I've not found any situation where using this terminology distinction causes conflicts in rules interpretation. In contrast, insisting that no such distinction exists (even though it appears frequently in the FAQ and other official commentary) causes numerous conflicts that could be solved simply if it were accepted. The trouble with your attempt at simplification is that the game designers didn't make that distinction. Instead they said this (from the Online D&D Glossary (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_attack&alpha=)):attack Any of numerous actions intended to harm, disable, or neutralize an opponent. So a standard action attack is an "attack action", but it's not the only "attack action". So if you have a Belt of Battle you can expend one charge to get an extra move action and make a full attack action as part of your Spring Attack, because a full attack action is also an "attack action". Let me ask you, Nom: Is there something intrinsically wrong with allowing flexibility where the rules are (intentionally or not) ambiguous? After all, this Belt of Battle use allows you to get a full attack and a regular move in the same round. Does allowing Spring Attack to still work with this combination make the game appreciably harder to DM, or any less enjoyable for the players? I don't think so. I don't see "numerous conflicts", but I do see a few more opportunities for fun playing the game.
xAndurilx 09-24-07, 02:21 PM	Christ! Whats with all this hostility! Sorry about the not getting laid comment, but jesus. Calm down. If you think Im a total stupid idiot, then why are you posting on this thread? Lets make a new rule: If you dont have something nice to post, dont post it! (myself included) Now back to the arguement at hand. So now, if there IS a difference between Attack Action (which is a Standard Action) and an Attack (Standard, Full, Free...) another question arises. I appreciate the persons post above who tried to explain why Sunder is an Attack but not an Attack Action (i.e. does not REQUIRE a Standard Action), but I dont think I understood what he was saying. By the logic we are using with Spring Attack (being an Attack Action), I still think by that same logic, Sunder would require a Standard Action - not just an Attack. For some reason this doesnt seem right to me. In my mind's eye I can envision a fighter charging an enemy and stundering their weapon in the same attack... P.S. That rewording of Spring Attack would be REALLY cool...does anyone know someone who works at a game store?
Tsuul 09-24-07, 05:18 PM	Here's the latest and most archaic form of Spring Attack from one of WoTC's first failed paid for errata strategies. Spring Attack Pre: Dex13, Dodge, Mobility, BAB +4 Benefit: When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can split your move action in that round in order to move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can't use feat if you are wearing heavy armor. You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of spring attack. Special: a fighter may select spring attack as on of his fighter bonus feats (see page 38). There doesn't seem to be any change relevant to the current argument. But I don't doubt the boards ability to find one.
solbergb 09-24-07, 06:06 PM	The rules are kinda ambiguous when combining these two actions. :confused: . spring attack requires move+attack+move charge requires single move (up to 2x movement)+attack (and a raft of other restrictions) The two modes are incompatable. Charge requires you attack at the end and stop. Spring requires you move after you attack (and also limits you to a single move action, not 2x your move distance) It's just like how you can't both bull rush and overrun on the same turn. Both require you to move into an enemy square, but the second half of the action is different. The belt of battle (and the celerity spell tree) explicitly break all the normal rules of how many actions you can do in a turn. They should not be used as precedent for the normal case. If you want to invent a new feat tree that duplicates the belt of battle behavior, feel free, but I would not recommending shoehorning it into the spring attack feat - whose purpose is to avoid AOO's and leave you in a safe place after you hit the enemy. Regarding the "attack action". Anything that can be done iteratively as part of a full attack sequence is distinct from a normal "standard action only" thing. Sunder can be done as a series of iterative attacks, so it's an attack action. Bull rush can't...it's a standard action only thing, but it has explicit mechanics to work with a charge. Overrun, by contrast explicitly can't be mixed with a charge (by eratta, the PHB is contradictory). Shot on the Run allows only an attack action (so it doesn't work with multishot and spellcasting) Flyby attack, by contrast, allows a std action (so it works with multishot, spellcasting and dragon breath) Rideby attack ONLY works as part of a charge, so you can only attack with it and it has all the other charge limitations. (have to see the target before you start moving, need charge lane, can't have hampered movement, etc, none of which spring attack has as limitations) It's rather unfortunate that they never defined an attack action anywhere, except indirectly in the FAQ entry that discusses mixing multiattack with shot on the run.
xAndurilx 09-24-07, 06:26 PM	Here's the latest and most archaic form of Spring Attack from one of WoTC's first failed paid for errata strategies. There doesn't seem to be any change relevant to the current argument. But I don't doubt the boards ability to find one. Thanks Tsuul! Although I think the main arguement is because of this whole "attack action" thing. A good majority of the people think it implies a Standard Action. But there is no specific definition for "attack action". I am arguing that the closest thing to an "attack action with a melee weapon" is the Melee Attack, which is specifically included in Charge: "After moving, you may make a single melee attack." But, like you said, we should never underestimate the board's ability to uncover something in this text!
Dheran 09-24-07, 07:21 PM	Here's the latest and most archaic form of Spring Attack from one of WoTC's first failed paid for errata strategies. Thank you, Tsuul. This at least buries a couple of dubious ideas about how Spring Attack works: It's not a special full-round action. The feat doesn't grant bonus movement.
xAndurilx 09-24-07, 07:27 PM	[QUOTE=solbergb;13893350]spring attack requires move+attack+move charge requires single move (up to 2x movement)+attack (and a raft of other restrictions) The two modes are incompatable. Charge requires you attack at the end and stop. Spring requires you move after you attack (and also limits you to a single move action, not 2x your move distance)[QUOTE] Spring attack *requires* that you make a move + attack + move. But it also *allows* a move + attack + move. That is what the benefit of the feat is! Actually, if you were to go by one interpretation of this feat, you wouldnt actually be able to use this feat because it requires something that it allows~! lol! Holy ****, this feat needs to be rewritten pronto!
xAndurilx 09-24-07, 07:34 PM	Thank you, Tsuul. This at least buries a couple of dubious ideas about how Spring Attack works: It's not a special full-round action. The feat doesn't grant bonus movement. And Lo! The Board does not fail us! Thanks Dheran!
solbergb 09-24-07, 08:19 PM	[QUOTE=xAndurilx;13894233 Spring attack *requires* that you make a move + attack + move. But it also *allows* a move + attack + move. That is what the benefit of the feat is! [/QUOTE] Um...yes. It both ALLOWS a kind of action mix that isn't normally allowed and REQUIRES that you do it. There is no contradiction there. Normally your options if you want to move and attack are: Take a move action then take an attack action Take an attack action and then take a move action Charge up to 2x movement (with many restrictions) and attack at the end. Spring attack introduces a new option, but to use the feat at all you have to do everything it requires (just as to get +2 to hit with charge and go twice as far as the usual move+attack, you need -2 AC, clear charge lane, be able to see the target, not have hampered movement, need to make extra balance checks on some surfaces and slopes, etc). Spring attack lets you move before and after the attack but also requires you to move before and after the attack. It also makes you immune to AOO's vs the target. Spring attack isn't compatable with any of the three "normal" move+attack options because it requires something impossible for any of them (move-attack-move). Each feat that is similar to spring attack has differences in what it restricts and allows. Rideby requires that you charge, but clearly also requires somewhat different charge targeting behaviors since you don't have to end in the closest square to the target. The other charge targeting requirements don't change, and it does protect from AOO. Flyby attack is the least restricted, in that it allows any std action, not just an attack, but it doesn't protect you from AOO's. Shot on run is like flyby, except it only allows attacks, not "std actions" and provides no AOO protection. None of these modes are compatable with any of the other move+attack modes except rideby, and only because rideby's restrictions REQUIRE a charge attack, and then change where the charge occurs (where the others modify the "move+attack"/"attack+move" or for flyby "move+std"/"std+move" options into move-atk-move where total move distance is same as move+attack/attack+move)
kalstrand 09-24-07, 11:05 PM	Just over halfway down on the left hand colum of page 139 in the PHB you will find in all caps and blue font Standard Actions. It then gives a short description of what a standard action could be. Just below this description it starts a list of standard actions the first of which is called Attack (also in blue font.) It then goes on at length describing the Attack Action. The description goes through page 139 onto page 140 where it ends approximately halfway through the left hand column where it is followed by another standard action called Cast a Spell which is also found in blue font. There is your definition of the Attack Action. Read the entire thread next time xAndurilx.
Kompera 09-25-07, 03:33 AM	Fascinating thread, and it speaks to a rules question I had concerning the interaction between two Feats, one being Spring Attack which seems to be the 'pivotal' Feat in the Charge/Spring Attack issue. After reading (and well before reading all) the thread, I agree completely that Spring Attack and Charge can not be combined in a single rounds actions. But the same ambiguous statements of effects in the rules for Cleave and Spring Attack has served to confuse me on the following point: If you drop a foe, Cleave allows "an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack." Spring Attack allows a player to "move both before and after the attack". Would a player who declared a Spring Attack and moved the perquisite 5+ feet before an attack be allowed to move before using the attack granted by Cleave? Unlike the Charge/Spring Attack debate, I don't believe that anyone would argue that the player is not entitled to make a Cleave attack if they drop a foe while in the midst of executing a Spring Attack. The issue here seems to be that Cleave takes specific pains to state that no 5-foot step can be made before taking the Cleave attack, while Spring Attack specifically allows movement both before and after attacks, and in fact requires movement after the attack. I believe that in this case also that I would not allow a 5-foot step to be taken before executing the Cleave, despite the enhanced movement capabilities granted by Spring Attack. Nor would I as a player ask to take a step before executing the Cleave. And when I posted this same query at GiantITP (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55714&page=13), the responder there also said that the Cleve must be taken immediately, before any further movement. But I'm curious if anyone reads this differently and would come to a different conclusion?
yrogerg 09-25-07, 07:15 AM	Fascinating thread, and it speaks to a rules question I had concerning the interaction between two Feats, one being Spring Attack which seems to be the 'pivotal' Feat in the Charge/Spring Attack issue. After reading (and well before reading all) the thread, I agree completely that Spring Attack and Charge can not be combined in a single rounds actions. But the same ambiguous statements of effects in the rules for Cleave and Spring Attack has served to confuse me on the following point: If you drop a foe, Cleave allows "an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack." Spring Attack allows a player to "move both before and after the attack". Would a player who declared a Spring Attack and moved the perquisite 5+ feet before an attack be allowed to move before using the attack granted by Cleave? Unlike the Charge/Spring Attack debate, I don't believe that anyone would argue that the player is not entitled to make a Cleave attack if they drop a foe while in the midst of executing a Spring Attack. The issue here seems to be that Cleave takes specific pains to state that no 5-foot step can be made before taking the Cleave attack, while Spring Attack specifically allows movement both before and after attacks, and in fact requires movement after the attack. I believe that in this case also that I would not allow a 5-foot step to be taken before executing the Cleave, despite the enhanced movement capabilities granted by Spring Attack. Nor would I as a player ask to take a step before executing the Cleave. And when I posted this same query at GiantITP (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55714&page=13), the responder there also said that the Cleve must be taken immediately, before any further movement. But I'm curious if anyone reads this differently and would come to a different conclusion? No, that sounds about right: The sequence of actions would need to be Move-Attack-Cleave-Move.
xAndurilx 09-25-07, 11:41 AM	Read the entire thread next time xAndurilx. I did. You are saying that an attack action (notice it is not with capitol letters) is defined because their is a box that says "Action" then under it has a list of things such as attack, sunder, light a Tindertwig. Kalstrand, I understand your point, but thats the only place in the book that has any reference to an Action: attack, which is not necissarily an attack action. You are saying that an attack action is a standard action 'cause its in the box, when the action Sunder is also in the box. Just because it *can* be a standard action, doesnt mean it *has* to be a standard action (i.e. you can use attack actions in a Full Round Action). This has already been addressed, so you please read the comment that counters this arguement. - And please dont assume something just cause you dont agree with me.
xAndurilx 09-25-07, 11:51 AM	Um...yes. It both ALLOWS a kind of action mix that isn't normally allowed and REQUIRES that you do it. There is no contradiction there. Normally your options if you want to move and attack are: Take a move action then take an attack action Take an attack action and then take a move action Charge up to 2x movement (with many restrictions) and attack at the end. Spring attack introduces a new option, but to use the feat at all you have to do everything it requires (just as to get +2 to hit with charge and go twice as far as the usual move+attack, you need -2 AC, clear charge lane, be able to see the target, not have hampered movement, need to make extra balance checks on some surfaces and slopes, etc). Spring attack lets you move before and after the attack but also requires you to move before and after the attack. It also makes you immune to AOO's vs the target. Spring attack isn't compatable with any of the three "normal" move+attack options because it requires something impossible for any of them (move-attack-move). Each feat that is similar to spring attack has differences in what it restricts and allows. Rideby requires that you charge, but clearly also requires somewhat different charge targeting behaviors since you don't have to end in the closest square to the target. The other charge targeting requirements don't change, and it does protect from AOO. Flyby attack is the least restricted, in that it allows any std action, not just an attack, but it doesn't protect you from AOO's. Shot on run is like flyby, except it only allows attacks, not "std actions" and provides no AOO protection. None of these modes are compatable with any of the other move+attack modes except rideby, and only because rideby's restrictions REQUIRE a charge attack, and then change where the charge occurs (where the others modify the "move+attack"/"attack+move" or for flyby "move+std"/"std+move" options into move-atk-move where total move distance is same as move+attack/attack+move) I see where your coming from solbergb. So your saying that inorder to take advantage of not being a victim of an AoO, the full feat has to be used. That makes sense. However, Spring Attack simply lets you essentially "split" your existing movement, divided both before and after your attack. Charge specifically states that you can move and then make a melee attack. Im saying that the move and melee attack criteria is fulfilled with the Charge for Spring Attack as long as you dont exceed your full movement. I hope Im being clear. This is a very tricky word game with LOTS of ambiguity both with Charge and Spring Attack. Thats what makes this such an unusual topic.
xAndurilx 09-25-07, 12:02 PM	No, that sounds about right: The sequence of actions would need to be Move-Attack-Cleave-Move. I agree with you yrogerg.
kalstrand 09-25-07, 05:33 PM	I did. You are saying that an attack action (notice it is not with capitol letters) is defined because their is a box that says "Action" then under it has a list of things such as attack, sunder, light a Tindertwig. Kalstrand, I understand your point, but thats the only place in the book that has any reference to an Action: attack, which is not necissarily an attack action. You are saying that an attack action is a standard action 'cause its in the box, when the action Sunder is also in the box. Just because it *can* be a standard action, doesnt mean it *has* to be a standard action (i.e. you can use attack actions in a Full Round Action). This has already been addressed, so you please read the comment that counters this arguement. - And please dont assume something just cause you dont agree with me. I am saying an attack action is a standard action by definiton on page 139 of the PHB. I'm not sure which chart you are talking about but if it lists sunder as a standard action the chart is wrong to begin with because sunder is a special melee attack that can be substituted for any attack you can make. You can't use attack actions as part of a full round action you can make attacks as part of a full round action.
Riplox 10-02-07, 03:05 AM	I think a little common sense needs to be used concerning this issue. I mean, if you want to be a total hard-@ss about it, then no, they don't work together via wording technicalities. However, if I want to be able to run head-long at someone attack, and keep going, shouldn't I be able to? I'd say allow it in this manner: Move up to your speed towards your opponent ending adjacent (left or right side) to them, attack, then move up to your speed afterwards in the same direction as your original charge (seeing as a charge is a straight line) avoiding AoOs from the opponent because of Spring Attack.
yrogerg 10-02-07, 06:42 AM	I think a little common sense needs to be used concerning this issue. I mean, if you want to be a total hard-@ss about it, then no, they don't work together via wording technicalities. However, if I want to be able to run head-long at someone attack, and keep going, shouldn't I be able to? I'd say allow it in this manner: Move up to your speed towards your opponent ending adjacent (left or right side) to them, attack, then move up to your speed afterwards in the same direction as your original charge (seeing as a charge is a straight line) avoiding AoOs from the opponent because of Spring Attack. RTFT. There are a *number* of reason why it shouldn't work, and 'wording technicalities' are hardly the most important.
Bopple 10-02-07, 08:28 AM	Oh my god. I never imagined this thread could be this long. It is fascinating to find out how stubborn a man can be.
Dheran 10-02-07, 11:22 AM	I'll mention this here, but I'm also going to create a new thread on this topic. The latest FAQ specifies that an "attack action" can be part of a full attack action:Can a warlock use Rapid Shot to fire two eldritch blasts simultaneously? No. Using eldritch blast requires a standard action, not an attack action (unlike using a weapon). If something requires a standard action (as opposed to an attack action) to use, you can’t use the full attack action to gain extra uses of that ability, even with the Rapid Shot feat. ... but then immediately contradicts itself:Can a warlock use his eldritch blast in conjunction with Shot on the Run? What about hideous blow and Spring Attack? No and no. Using eldritch blast requires a standard action. The Shot on the Run and Spring Attack feats only let you use an attack action (that is, a specific kind of standard action) in conjunction with their allowed movement, not any kind of standard action. Isn't it nice to have this all cleared up? :rolleyes:
Tsuul 10-02-07, 04:34 PM	Oh my god. I never imagined this thread could be this long. It is fascinating to find out how stubborn a man can be. Here is a big ol facinating thread then. Heighten Spell with other metamagic feats (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=316552)
yrogerg 10-02-07, 06:22 PM	I'll mention this here, but I'm also going to create a new thread on this topic. The latest FAQ specifies that an "attack action" can be part of a full attack action: ... but then immediately contradicts itself: Isn't it nice to have this all cleared up? :rolleyes: It's not really a contradiction. An 'Attack Action' *is* a special type of Standard Action, one that can be done as part of certain Full Round actions, namely Charging and Full Attack. Full Attack is a special Full Round action that specifically allows multiple Attack Actions to 'fit' inside it. Standard Actions that are not Attack Actions do not 'fit' inside a Full Attack, nor do they 'fit' inside a Charge, Spring Attack, or Shot on the Run. However, an Attack Action, on its own, *is* a still Standard Action. Where's the contradiction? I'm not seeing it.
Roderick_BR 10-03-07, 11:52 AM	If you move and attack, you just moved and attacked. No charge or spring attack stuff. It doesn't sound so complicated. When you charge, you make one move action, and an attack with special bonuses, then stop. If you moved, attacked, and moved the rest of your first move, that was an spring attack. You can't combine the two. And if you could, you could get Shock trooper, Leap Attack, and Rapid Blitz with a two-handed weapon to attack 3 times in a charge, dealing +80 points of damage with each attack.