Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ryuuku 06-08-07, 04:40 AM	I'm playing a cleric and tempted to take the Zen Archery feat (from CW). Anyway I'm wondering if I can apply my Wis mod instead of Dex for ranged touch attacks as well as the obvious regular ranged attacks. Thanks for the input
serow_#R 06-08-07, 04:43 AM	You should be able to.
Koretsu 06-08-07, 05:25 AM	Tome and Blood talks about taking certain feats to apply to your ranged touch attacks. I don't have specifics on hand, but I know for a fact that Point Blank Shot works on ranged touch spells and ray effects. If it works, I don't see any reason Zen Archery wouldn't, either.
goawayugh 06-08-07, 07:35 AM	Absolutly. A ranged touch attack is still a ranged attack. The "touch" part only specifies what AC you need to hit.
tarkin 06-08-07, 10:21 AM	The descriptive text specifies using a ranged weapon, not just an attack roll. And the name clearly says Archery. The question is are you going to just ignore that text, claiming it is 'fluff', or treat it as accurate as the Benefit text. Usually the way people defend against ranged attacks is via things like concealment, so in most cases it should not matter. I am not sure how I would rule for this one in a Loose game. Clearly in a strict game the answer would be no, and clearly in a Power game the answer would be yes.
goawayugh 06-08-07, 11:12 AM	The descriptive text specifies using a ranged weapon, not just an attack roll. No it doesn't. Zen Archery You can use your Wisdom modifier instead of your Dexterity modifier when making a ranged attack roll. It applies to ANY ranged attack roll. Even touch attacks.
Gnarl 06-08-07, 12:27 PM	No it doesn't. It applies to ANY ranged attack roll. Even touch attacks. You quoted the benefit, not the short introduction paragraph that says: Your intuition guides your hand when using ranged weapons.
goawayugh 06-08-07, 12:33 PM	That's just flavor. The specific benefit you receive from a feat is listed under the benefit part. If it was for weapons only, it would say "this only applies to weapon attacks, not spells". But it doesn't. It says "when making a ranged attack roll". A ranged touch attack is a ranged attack roll.
BW0222 06-08-07, 12:46 PM	Folks, tarkin and gnarl are clearly correct in that the descriptive text" does say ranged weapon, so goawayugh is incorrect when he says "No it doesn't". Goawayugh is also clearly correct that in interpreting the rules, the benefit section always takes priority over the descriptive text. (And I'll add the title). The benefit of the feat applies to any ranged attack roll, regardless of the weapon or in this case a a ranged touch attack. I wish they would put flavor text in italics, such that it was clear it wasn't a rule. In most cases, the text doesn't need to be there.
ShinAkuma2 06-08-07, 12:46 PM	Your intuition guides your hand when using ranged weapons. And spells with attacks rolls are considered weapon-like spells, ie, spells that function as weapons.
goawayugh 06-08-07, 12:59 PM	Folks, tarkin and gnarl are clearly correct in that the descriptive text" does say ranged weapon, so goawayugh is incorrect when he says "No it doesn't". Yes, I realized I missed the fact that tarkin was talking about the "descriptive" text after gnarl pointed it out (sorry tarkin). Goawayugh is also clearly correct that in interpreting the rules, the benefit section always takes priority over the descriptive text. (And I'll add the title). The benefit of the feat applies to any ranged attack roll, regardless of the weapon or in this case a a ranged touch attack. I wish they would put flavor text in italics, such that it was clear it wasn't a rule. In most cases, the text doesn't need to be there. Thank you. That is what I have been trying to say.
Gnarl 06-08-07, 02:37 PM	That's just flavor. The specific benefit you receive from a feat is listed under the benefit part. If it was for weapons only, it would say "this only applies to weapon attacks, not spells". But it doesn't. It says "when making a ranged attack roll". A ranged touch attack is a ranged attack roll. I agree with you but whenever the flavor text and the ‘rule’ don't match, there's always a place for interpretation. So long as people stay consistent I guess it’s all right. I personally never take flavor text into account because it usually isn’t as precise as the ‘rule’ and leads to a whole lot more rules disputes with my players. But that’s just me I guess.
goawayugh 06-08-07, 02:41 PM	I personally never take flavor text into account because it usually isn’t as precise as the ‘rule’ and leads to a whole lot more rules disputes with my players. But that’s just me I guess. No, that's not just you. Flavor text can often be confusing if you are trying to base a rule on it. It's just there to describe the rule/spell/monster/etc... Only the actual wording of the rule is what counts (at least in my games).