Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jagggar 01-02-05, 03:06 AM	Not everything can be explained by magic, nor are the D&D mechanics best able to represent every idea which enters one's mind. There are other d20 rules out there which can model things which D&D cannot. This foundation hopes to bring these other d20's together with D&D so they may be used in the IFWG. Charter: The purpose of the D&D-ification Foundation is to bring D&D and other d20 based products mechanicly closer together so that they may be used in one game.
jagggar 01-02-05, 03:10 AM	-Reserved incase there's ever material-
jagggar 01-02-05, 03:11 AM	-Also reserved-
Tenzhi 01-02-05, 03:18 AM	As soon as I get home (in about 4-5 hours) I'll try to convert and post all six of the d20 Modern base classes. I had been looking them over and I don't think it will be as difficult as I originally thought, as they are less dependent on Action Points than I recalled. I may even convert some of the advanced classes if I'm feeling energetic.
grimclaw 01-02-05, 03:22 AM	The only non d&d book I have probably isnt appropriate for posting but I'll look thru it this week and see if I can find anything worthwhile.What about D&D-ifing none d20 stuff?That would give your foundation a lot more work to do.(hold on Rufus is trying to eat Tiger)------ok where was I?Oh,I'm done.Anyway I'll look around and see what I can find.
Silmarien Aldalome 01-02-05, 03:23 AM	Jagggar - this is good stuff. I'm with you all the way with it. It's too soon to promise - but if at all possible, I'd like to see us Sticky a "conversion" thread - perhaps that could be how we get you up in lights. I know you wanted a Sticky - saw it at MetaBoards. In any case - I'm going to enjoy the progress of this thread - and thing it's a sorely needed addition to our work. Best Regards stav
Tenzhi 01-02-05, 03:34 AM	What about D&D-ifing none d20 stuff? An interesting proposition to say the least. Conversions are one of my favourite things to do. Unfortunately I don't think I have anything of that nature that's appropriate to convert right now. Perhaps the Wizards RPG and Sengoku... but most everything else non-d20 that I have is Superhero stuff, which just doesn't do well in converting to d20. (Well, there's World of Synnibarr, but that thing's power scale is so insane that it's perfect for Dragonball Z.)
jagggar 01-02-05, 03:47 AM	It's my plan to start small. Get D20 M/F to work with D&D first. Then start seeing about converting other things.
Tenzhi 01-02-05, 11:53 AM	The Strong Hero ala D&D BAB: As Fighter HD: d8 Saves: Fort - Average, Reflex and Will - Poor Class Skills: Unchanged - a medieval-based Strong Hero may replace Craft (structural) with Craft (carpentry, shipmaking, or stonemasonry); they may replace Knowledge (current events, and pop culture) with Knowledge (local, and nobility/royalty) Skill Points at 1st level: (2 + Int modifier) x 4 Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier Class Features Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The Strong Hero starts with Simple Weapons Proficiency. He is not proficient in any type of armor or shield. Defense Bonus: When unarmored and unencumbered, the Strong Hero receives a dodge bonus to AC as noted on pg 20 table 1-3 of the d20 Modern Core Rulebook. Talents The Strong Hero's talents don't change, and d20 Modern isn't OGL as I recall, so I won't reproduce more information than is necessary for the conversion. Bonus Feats As listed except replace Archaic Weapons Proficiency with Martial Weapon Proficiency, and replace Combat Martial Arts with Improved Unarmed Strike (in all feat prerequisites as well).
Tenzhi 01-02-05, 12:05 PM	The Fast Hero ala D&D BAB: As Cleric HD: d8 Saves: Ref - Average, Fort and Will - Poor Class Skills: Unchanged - a medieval-based Fast Hero may replace Craft (mechanical) with Craft (trapmaking); they may replace Knowledge (current events, and pop culture) with Knowledge (local, and nobility/royalty); they may replace Drive and Pilot with Open Lock and Use Rope Skill Points at 1st level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4 Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier Class Features Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The Fast Hero starts with Simple Weapons Proficiency. He is not proficient in any type of armor or shield. Defense Bonus: When unarmored and unencumbered, the Fast Hero receives a dodge bonus to AC as noted on pg 22 table 1-4 of the d20 Modern Core Rulebook. Talents The Fast Hero's talents don't change except that the Defensive Roll and Opportunist abilities no longer require an action point to use. Bonus Feats No changes.
Tenzhi 01-02-05, 12:37 PM	The Tough Hero ala D&D BAB: As Cleric HD: d10 Saves: Fort - Average, Ref and Will - Poor Class Skills: Unchanged - a medieval-based Fast Hero may replace Craft (mechanical, and structural) with Craft (trapmaking, and carpentry, shipmaking, or stonemasonry); they may replace Knowledge (current events, and pop culture) with Knowledge (local, and nobility/royalty); they may replace Drive with Swim Skill Points at 1st level: (2 + Int modifier) x 4 Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier Class Features Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The Tough Hero starts with Simple Weapons Proficiency. He is not proficient in any type of armor or shield. Defense Bonus: When unarmored and unencumbered, the Tough Hero receives a dodge bonus to AC as noted on pg 24 table 1-5 of the d20 Modern Core Rulebook. Talents The Tough Hero's talents don't change except that Second no longer requires an action point to use - instead it may be used a number of times per day equal to his Tough Hero level. Bonus Feats No changes. A medieval based Tough Hero may replace Vehicle Expert with Improved Damage Threshold.
Tenzhi 01-02-05, 12:44 PM	The Smart Hero ala D&D BAB: As Wizard HD: d6 Saves: Will - Average, Ref and Fort - Poor Class Skills: Unchanged - a medieval-based Smart Hero may replace any Int-based modern skill with any Int-based D&D skill. Skill Points at 1st level: (8 + Int modifier) x 4 Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 8 + Int modifier Class Features Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The Smart Hero starts with Simple Weapons Proficiency. He is not proficient in any type of armor or shield. Defense Bonus: When unarmored and unencumbered, the Smart Hero receives a dodge bonus to AC as noted on pg 26 table 1-6 of the d20 Modern Core Rulebook. Talents The Smart Hero's talents don't change. Bonus Feats No changes. A medieval based Smart Hero may replace any feat that grants a bonus to modern skills with a D&D feat that grants appropriate skill bonuses.
Tenzhi 01-02-05, 12:53 PM	The Dedicated Hero ala D&D BAB: As Cleric HD: d6 Saves: Will and Fort - Average, Ref - Poor Class Skills: Unchanged - a medieval-based Dedicated Hero may replace Craft (pharmaceutical, visual art, writing) with Craft (alchemy, sculpting or painting, calligraphy) and change the Knowledge list to Knowledge (any). Skill Points at 1st level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4 Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier Class Features Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The Dedicated Hero starts with Simple Weapons Proficiency. He is not proficient in any type of armor or shield. Defense Bonus: When unarmored and unencumbered, the Dedicated Hero receives a dodge bonus to AC as noted on pg 28 table 1-7 of the d20 Modern Core Rulebook. Talents The Dedicated Hero's talents don't change except that Faith no longer costs an action point - instead it may be used anumber of times per day equal to 3 + the character's Wisdom modifier. Bonus Feats Replace Archaic Weapons Proficiency with Martial Weapon Proficiency. A medieval based Dedicated Hero may replace any feat that grants a bonus to modern skills with a D&D feat that grants appropriate skill bonuses.
NightScreamer20 01-02-05, 01:00 PM	What's wrong with Action Points? the ECS uses them, so why don't we keep them?
Tenzhi 01-02-05, 01:03 PM	The Charismatic Hero ala D&D BAB: As Wizard HD: d6 Saves: Ref and Fort - Average, Will - Poor Class Skills: Unchanged - a medieval-based Dedicated Hero may replace Craft (visual art, writing) with Craft (sculpting or painting, calligraphy) and change the Knowledge list to Knowledge (any). Skill Points at 1st level: (6 + Int modifier) x 4 Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier Class Features Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The Charismatic Hero starts with Simple Weapons Proficiency. He is not proficient in any type of armor or shield. Defense Bonus: When unarmored and unencumbered, the Charismatic Hero receives a dodge bonus to AC as noted on pg 30 table 1-8 of the d20 Modern Core Rulebook. Talents The Charismatic Hero's talents don't change except that Favor no longer costs an action point - instead it may be used a number of times per day equal to one-half the character's Charismatic Hero level. Bonus Feats Replace Renown and Windfall with Leadership. A medieval based Dedicated Hero may replace any feat that grants a bonus to modern skills with a D&D feat that grants appropriate skill bonuses.
Tenzhi 01-02-05, 01:08 PM	What's wrong with Action Points? the ECS uses them, so why don't we keep them? Because most D&D rules don't use them and therefore don't account for them, and they're only balanced if everyone has them. It would be like allowing someone to use the Gestalt or Rechargeable spell rules from Unearthed Arcana (not quite that unbalanced, but unbalanced nonetheless).
Tenzhi 01-02-05, 01:19 PM	Optional Rule: Advanced technology is nearly indistiguishable from magic. Technological items whose operation is based on combustion, electricity, nuklear power, atimic energy, or other forms of harnessed energy that require industrial-age technology or better have a 50% chance to be affected by dispel magic, anti-magic fields, and other effects that disrupt magical items. Technological items so affected are treated just as if they were magical items.
jagggar 01-03-05, 04:08 PM	Right now our Internet is only working in the computer lab, not in the rooms, so I'll be off-line until that's fixed. Not fun at all. Don't care to drag my books to the lab, so I'm gunna be slightly less active and useful until then. D20 Modern SRD is avalible. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/msrd Includes Future down at the bottom. I'm about to make reference to Progress Levels, so check out that file. It's under the Future heading. Technological items whose operation is based on combustion, electricity, nuklear power, atimic energy, or other forms of harnessed energy that require industrial-age technology or better have a 50% chance to be affected by dispel magic, anti-magic fields, and other effects that disrupt magical items. Technological items so affected are treated just as if they were magical items. Wow, I'm just going to say that is FAR too tough. No scaling, just automatic 50% failure. Yikes. I think that technology should be limited not by being a pain the :censored: , but by how "magical" it can be. (Sort of a rivalry between magic and technology and the higher the technology level the less magic will work with it.) I got the idea from a previous guild that's quite a few pages deep by now I believe. Maximum Progress Enhancement (for a weapon) Level Bonus 0,1,2 +10 3,4 +8 5,6 +6 7,8 +4 9 +2 Possible thoughts of deciding upon all magic item usefulness from this sort of an idea. Some things you forgot or didn't address (as far as character classes go): Reputation, some skills such as Profession and Gamble, some Knowledge requirements for certian Advanced Classes and PrCs. I don't mean for this to change the Modern Base Classes into D&D flavor, but to get the mechanics to mesh.
Tenzhi 01-03-05, 05:38 PM	Wow, I'm just going to say that is FAR too tough. No scaling, just automatic 50% failure. Yikes. Yeah, compared to the 100% for magic and psionics that's REAL tough. :P
jagggar 01-03-05, 05:44 PM	If someone is relying purely on technological weapons of a higher technology level, they're screwed. Sword's still a sword, but if you mean a total failure, some could be reduced to nothing.
Tenzhi 01-03-05, 06:12 PM	And that's why it was only a 50% chance. Still, a pistol whip is still a pistol whip, and a vibrosword is still a sword. Only the power source fails. Not that this is a rule here - just an option for meshing Tech with magic. Making it immune to such effects just makes it that much more comparatively powerful, however, which is bad all things considered.
Demonfey 01-03-05, 06:45 PM	And that's why it was only a 50% chance. Still, a pistol whip is still a pistol whip, and a vibrosword is still a sword. Only the power source fails. Not that this is a rule here - just an option for meshing Tech with magic. Making it immune to such effects just makes it that much more comparatively powerful, however, which is bad all things considered. Well, I just had a thought. Gnome artificers (PRC, Magic of Faerun if I remember right) specialize in doing things like this. They make machines that can do the same things as certain spells, and they can be advanced. They have made flamethrowers and whatnot, and so it is something to consider. Or, it could be advances in the same way Eberron has them, in how they have some special vehicles and items, like the electric bullet train thing.
jagggar 01-03-05, 11:09 PM	Okay, found my list of different things from D&D and D20 Modern systems: Defense Reputation Action Points *Wealth* - I consider this one of the greatest differences. Weapon Damage/Equipment in general Magic "FX" Psionics "FX" Massive Damage Threshold Feats Skills Is there anything else that is different?
jagggar 01-08-05, 10:25 PM	I post this before I lose it off my clipboard. The character isn't entirely complete and I may switch out some equipment for other equipment. I don't have the wealth required figured out yet either, but I did not consider it a concern while making the character. The Dimensional Ranger is a class presented in D20 Future but did not make it to the Future SRD. Everyone, please feel free to review and make comparisons to the power of a D&D character. Name: jagggar Class(es): Dedicated Hero 5/Dimensional Ranger 10 Race (Type): Human (humanoid) Gender: Female Size: Medium Alignment/Allegiance: Ranges from Chatotic Neutral to Lawful Evil. DM/GM's choice. ---Ability/modifier--- Str: 18 +4 = 10 + 4 (Micro Muscle) + 4 (Boost Armor) Dex: 15 +2 = 14 + 1 (level 4) Con: 16 +3 = 14 + 2 (level 8,12) Int: 16 +3 = 12 + 4 (Brain Boost) Wis: 16 +3 = 16 Cha: 12 +1 = 12 HP: 110 BAB: +10 AC: 27 = 10 + 8 (defense) + 7 (armor) + 2 (dex) Touch: 20 = 10 + 8 + 2 Flat-footed: 17 = 10 + 7 Init: +6 = 2 + 4 Action Points: 12 Reputation: +5 Saves Base Mod Misc. Fort: +11 = 8 + 3 + 0 Ref: +10 = 6 + 2 + 2 (Boost Armor) Will: +15 = 10 + 3 + 2 Skills: Skill Points: 4 (Class)+1 (human)+3 (Int) = 8x18 = 144 Skill Rank Mod ACP Misc. Balance 11 = 8 + 2 - 1 + 2 (Synergy) Bluff 19 = 18 + 1 + Jump 13 = 8 + 4 - 1 + 2 (Synergy) Know(c.e.) 11 = 8 + 3 + Know(his) 11 = 8 + 3 + Listen 23 = 18 + 3 + 2 (Alertness) Navigate 23 = 18 + 3 + 2 (Guide) SenseMotive 21 = 18 + 3 + Spot 21 = 16 + 3 + 2 (Alertness) Survival 11 = 6 + 3 + 2 (Guide) Tumble 24 = 18 + 2 - 1 + 5 (Synergy and Skill Empahsis) Feats (Level): Guide (1st) Light Armor Prof. (1st human bonus) Archaic Weapon Prof. (1st, career, Acts as Martial Weapons Prof.) Simple Weapon Prof. (1st, Dedicated Hero bonus) Alertness (2nd, DH bonus) Medium Armor Prof. (3rd) Blind-Fight (4th, DH bonus) Powered Armor Prof. (6th) Personal Firearms Prof. (8th, Dimensional Ranger bonus, Acts as Exotic Weapons Prof.(Firearms)) Point Blank Shot (9th) Far Shot (11th, DmR bonus) Improved Initative (12th) Iron Will (14th, DmR bonus) ---Attacks/Damage--- Melee: Ranged: Integrated Compact Variable Charge Plasma Rifle (Alt. Weapon Disintegrator) w/video scope +13/+8 3d10 fire damage Integrated Compact Variable Charge Disintegrator (Alt. Weapon Plasma Rifle) w/video scope +13/+8 3d8 untyped energy damage Special Abilities: Empathy: Gains a +5 bonus on socal skills after observing target for one minute. Skill Emphasis (Tumble): +3 bonus on tumble checks. Intuition: Hero may make a Will saving throw to sense trouble in the air (DC 15). On a sucessful save, the character gets a hunch if everything's alright or if something seems amiss based on the GM's best guess of the circumstances. Usable a number of times per day equal to her Dedicated level. Dimensional Wand: Dimensional Ranger gains a dimensional wand as equpment. Dimensional Fortitude: When traveling through an unstable gate, a Dimensional Ranger adds a bonus to her fortitude save against dimensional static equal to one half her Dimensional Ranger level. Dimensional Familiarity: Dimensional Ranger may take a full-round action to set the dimensional wand to a "familar" dimension. A Dimensional Ranger has as many "familar" dimensions as levels in Dimensional Ranger. Dimensional Haven: Dimensional Ranger has found a dimension haven in which healing happens at an accelerated rate for her. The Dimensional ranger regains 1 hp per hour of rest and ablity damage heals at the rate of 1 point per hour of rest. Total bed rest doubles these rates. Dimensional Ally: With an hour of searching, the Dimensional Ranger can find a duplicate of himself. The found Dimensional Ranger may not use her ability to find a third duplicate and so on. Dimensional Wand, Advanced: Dimensional Ranger gains an advanced dimensional wand as equpment. (Upgrades Dimensional Wand ablity.) Dimensinoal Allies: As Dimensional Ally, but an hour of searching results in a number of allies equal to the Dimensional Ranger's wisdom bonus. Equipment: Boost Armor Ultralight Composition Environmental Seal Self-Repairing (Repairs 1 point of damage per minute to the armor.) Morphic Metal Alloy Integrated Equipment x3 (Cannot be seperated.) Advanced Dimensional Wand Multiple Use Matter Shield/Energy Shield Multiple Use Heads-Up Display/Nightvision Goggles HUD Software, Targeting (Grants +1 on ranged attacks with Video Scoped weapon) Integrated Weapon Plasma Rifle/Disintegrator Alternate Weapon (Cannot be seperated.) Compact Teleporting Magazine Variable Charge Video Scope Micro Muscle Nanite Colony (+4 Str) Brain Boost Nanite Colony (+4 Int) Boost Armor: Base Stats: AC +7 MaxDex. +4 ACP -3 Speed 20 Weight 20lb. Altered Stats: AC +7 MaxDex. +5 ACP -1 Speed 35 Weight 20lb. +4 bouns to Strength +2 Reflex saves Increases Speed by 10 feet. Envrionmental Seal: Wearer is contained in own environment when suit is completely sealed. Morphic Meatal Alloy: Reduces ACP by 1, increases MaxDex. by 1. Self Repairing: Repairs 1 point of damage per minute to the armor. Ultralight Composition: Reduces ACP by 1, increases Speed limitation by 5 feet. Integrated Equipment: Advanced Dimensional Wand: Creates a gate to another dimension large enough for one person to pass through but does not close until dimensional wand passes through it. Holds five preset coordinates, one to Dimensional Haven. Traveling through the dimensional gate requires a fortitude save (DC 15) due to dimensional static. A sucessful save causes the traveller to be shaken for 1d4 rounds. A failed save causes the target to be nauseated for 1d4 hours. If the save is failed by 5 or more, the traveller takes 2d6 constitution damage in addition to be nauseated for 1d4 hours. Energy Shield: Grants cold, electricity, fire, or sonic/concussion resistance 5. Move action to change selection. Heads-Up Display: Grants +2 on Spot checks when pursuing a specfic target. Heads-Up Display, Targeting: Linked to Weapon's video scope, grants +1 on ranged attacks with weapon. Matter Shield: DR 5/- against bludgeoning, peircing, slashing, and ballistic attacks. Nightvision Goggles: Effectively provide darkvision at a -4 penalty to Spot and Search checks. Integrated Weapon Gadgets: Compact: Reduces size of weapon to medium so it is a one handed weapon. Teleporting Magazine: Automatically reloads weapon. Effectively never ending supply of ammo. Variable Charge: Quoting D20Future SRD, "This gadget gives the user the ability to “power up” his or her shots by focusing more energy into a single blast. A weapon with the variable charge gadget may be primed as an attack action, increasing the damage of its next shot by +1 die. For example, a weapon that normally deals 2d6 points of damage deals 3d6 points of damage after being primed for one round. A weapon may be primed for up to three rounds. If primed for more than three rounds, it becomes unstable; on the fourth round the weapon must be fired or else it explodes and deals the fully charged damage (normal weapon damage, +4 dice) to the user. When this occurs, the weapon is completely destroyed." Video Scope: Hooked up to Targeting HUD.
Tenzhi 01-10-05, 08:46 AM	Other than the Defense Bonus, the Action Points, and the Equipment it looks fine to me at a glance. Now, in closed conditions one might think the Defense Bonus and the Equipment are fine in comparison - the problem comes from the fact that they would be integrating into a system where the player can pick up any number of magic items available to D&D characters that would further augment these things beyond the realm of other D&D characters. This is why, for instance, the Defense bonus should be unarmoured & unencumbered only. And the weapons should lose at least one die of damage each. I'll leave it up to someone else to cost out a comparable piece of armour to see how that measures up. Action points, as I've stated before, are inherently unbalanced unless everyone has them. And it's a simpler task to remove them from a few converted classes than it is to unnecessarily integrate them into all other classes and the game in general. One should really treat the Defense bonus the same way, but allowing it in as an unarmoured/unencumbered bonus is a fairly (though not entirely) safe compromise.
jagggar 01-10-05, 09:33 AM	Do you own UA? I disagree about the defense bonus. I believe it should be used as written in UA it stacks with everything but armor bonus. If you wear armor, you get the highest bonus, not both. I'll ask about the enhancement limit idea for balancing later. As far as equipment goes, are there problems with any of the rest of the equipment or is it mostly just the weapons? Same about asking about enhancement.
Tenzhi 01-10-05, 10:00 AM	Do you own UA? Yes - it's possibly my favourite D&D book. Note that the Defense bonus rules in that book (which I do like, along with the armour as DR rules) are only balanced if universally applied to all classes. If you just applied them to one class that class would be too powerful in relation to the other classes. It's like if you give every race a +10 to strength, then having a +10 to strength is balanced, but if just one race gets a +10 to strength it gets them a Level Adjustment. Or better yet, if you only allowed one class to use the critical hit rules that would completely alter the balance of the game. As far as equipment goes, are there problems with any of the rest of the equipment or is it mostly just the weapons? As far as I can see it's only the weapons - but I don't spend much time costing out magic items, which is essentially what the armour amounts to, so I can't say for certain whether it's balanced. My gut instinct tells me that it would be balanced at a slightly higher level (~17th), but magic items are my weakest area of expertise and I know it.
jagggar 01-10-05, 11:56 AM	True, true. Though it does make me wonder if Defense is a necessary part of d20 Modern classes. If removed entirely, how much would the classes be weakened? While we're still on the classes, two more things: Skills. Changing the skills sounds okay, but what do you do when someone wants to take an Advanced Class or PrC which requires X ranks in a Modern skill? Reputation is used by some of the classes in their talents. Does that create any sort of a problem elsewhere? Do we have someone here who's an expert on real-life guns? Would a Winchester 94 (hunting rifle) do the same damage as a renaissance pistol? That's one of my concerns, you drop a die and you do the same damage as a "weaker" weapon.
Tenzhi 01-10-05, 02:10 PM	True, true. Though it does make me wonder if Defense is a necessary part of d20 Modern classes. If removed entirely, how much would the classes be weakened? That depends on the setting they're in. The d20 Modern setting assumes that there are fewer magical enhancements available and less dependence on armor. This means that characters' ACs generally aren't going to be increasing as they gain levels at a sufficient pace to keep up with attack bonuses - thus the purpose of the Defense bonus. Skills. Changing the skills sounds okay, but what do you do when someone wants to take an Advanced Class or PrC which requires X ranks in a Modern skill? My suggested skill changes were entirely for using the classes as a character in a medieval setting, rather than a character from the future interacting with a medieval setting. But one could alter prerequisites to appropriate skills if necessary. Reputation is used by some of the classes in their talents. Does that create any sort of a problem elsewhere? One could substitute a mechanic such as Charisma mod + 1/2 Class level for Reputation. Do we have someone here who's an expert on real-life guns? Would a Winchester 94 (hunting rifle) do the same damage as a renaissance pistol? That's one of my concerns, you drop a die and you do the same damage as a "weaker" weapon. For the sake of balance, the "weaker" weapons you are referring to are actually "comparable" weapons. A rifle (and whether it's a winchester or a muzzle loader is unimportant for the purposes of this discussion) shouldn't outshine a bow/crossbow by too much. Handguns are bad enough with one die of damage (most of them in d20 Modern have 2 damage dice) since they'll be doing the equivalent of shortbows and can be easily wielded in one hand. And that's before you consider enhancements, or the fact that some of them may be doing energy damage that'll bypass DR, and other individual problems. These are the problems that must be considered when converting weaponry over. On a personal note, I think they spent entirely too much time differentiating between brands of handguns/rifles in d20 modern. All that was really necessary were generic entries such as "handgun, small calibre" and "handgun, large calibre." Imagine how much space the D&D weapon tables would have taken up if they divvied it up into Ash bows, yew bows, horn bows, longswords with broad bases, longswords with crossgards, longswords with brass pommels, etc. Pointless.
jagggar 01-10-05, 03:58 PM	That depends on the setting they're in. The d20 Modern setting assumes that there are fewer magical enhancements available and less dependence on armor. This means that characters' ACs generally aren't going to be increasing as they gain levels at a sufficient pace to keep up with attack bonuses - thus the purpose of the Defense bonus.What if the chart I proposed earlier is used as a limit to enhancement? Maximum Progress Enhancement Level Bonus 0,1,2 +10 3,4 +8 5,6 +6 7,8 +4 9 +2 My suggested skill changes were entirely for using the classes as a character in a medieval setting, rather than a character from the future interacting with a medieval setting. But one could alter prerequisites to appropriate skills if necessary.Okay. The alternative would be to just let them be Modern skills. One could substitute a mechanic such as Charisma mod + 1/2 Class level for Reputation.Does it create a problem though? Let's not create a solution if there isn't a problem. For the sake of balance, the "weaker" weapons you are referring to are actually "comparable" weapons. A rifle (and whether it's a winchester or a muzzle loader is unimportant for the purposes of this discussion) shouldn't outshine a bow/crossbow by too much. Handguns are bad enough with one die of damage (most of them in d20 Modern have 2 damage dice) since they'll be doing the equivalent of shortbows and can be easily wielded in one hand. And that's before you consider enhancements, or the fact that some of them may be doing energy damage that'll bypass DR, and other individual problems.Entirely ignoring dice, if one person was shot with a pistol and one was shot with the rifle, same distance, hit in the same place, would there be a difference in who was hurt more? On a personal note, I think they spent entirely too much time differentiating between brands of handguns/rifles in d20 modern. All that was really necessary were generic entries such as "handgun, small calibre" and "handgun, large calibre." Imagine how much space the D&D weapon tables would have taken up if they divvied it up into Ash bows, yew bows, horn bows, longswords with broad bases, longswords with crossgards, longswords with brass pommels, etc. Pointless.Know what you mean about that. I thought to myself "Umm, you paid money for that?" when my GM got the Weapons Locker book. Not being a gun person though, I'd want some sort of a list of actual weapons saying what type of gun they were, but that would take up much less space.
Tenzhi 01-11-05, 06:00 AM	Does it create a problem though? Let's not create a solution if there isn't a problem. If there's no other real benefit from reputation it doesn't create a problem, per se... Entirely ignoring dice, if one person was shot with a pistol and one was shot with the rifle, same distance, hit in the same place, would there be a difference in who was hurt more? In real life the answer would depend upon the rifle and the pistol used. In D&D, the rifle would likely do more damage since it is a two-handed weapon. One-handed weapons can be wielded in pairs or with a shield and thus do less damage as a matter of balance. As for the enhancement bonus by progress level - I don't have d20 Future so I'm not entirely familiar with how they parse out progress levels. The concept is sound, though. I would add to the enhancement bonus limitation that the maximum bonus to attack/damage/AC is equal to 1/2 the total enhancement bonus.
jagggar 01-11-05, 01:47 PM	D20 Modern SRD. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/msrd) Includes Urban Arcana, Menance Manual, and Future content. Progress Levels file. (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/msrd/FutureProgressLevels.rtf) There's also a summary in one of the old previews. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040711a) I would add to the enhancement bonus limitation that the maximum bonus to attack/damage/AC is equal to 1/2 the total enhancement bonus.Agreed, didn't know how to phrase it though. In real life the answer would depend upon the rifle and the pistol used. In D&D, the rifle would likely do more damage since it is a two-handed weapon. One-handed weapons can be wielded in pairs or with a shield and thus do less damage as a matter of balance. Like I said earlier, it's a Winchester 94 and a renaissance age pistol. Now the pistol, if you drop it's damage by one die, you do 0 damage. So you'd have to leave that as it was. But, if you drop the rifle by one die, you've got it doing 1d10, same as the pistol.
Tenzhi 01-12-05, 01:02 AM	Like I said earlier, it's a Winchester 94 and a renaissance age pistol. Now the pistol, if you drop it's damage by one die, you do 0 damage. So you'd have to leave that as it was. But, if you drop the rifle by one die, you've got it doing 1d10, same as the pistol. The 'drop a die of damage' thing was just a rule of thumb from glancing over the d20 Modern Core rulebook firearms table (which is to say, I didn't expect it to work perfectly for every situation), which I don't recall seeing a Ren-age pistol on. The drawback of the Ren pistol as compared to the winchester should be that the Winchester has a RoF of 1 whereas the Ren pistol is single shot I would imagine. In a perfect world the Ren pistol would also have horrible accuracy beyond point blank range and a relatively high chance of misfire. The 1d10 is about right for a rifle though, as I mentioned before. It's better than a bow but not quite as enchantable so it balances out.
jagggar 01-12-05, 01:10 AM	The pistol actually comes from the DMG, reprinted with other early guns in Dragon 321. Range of 50ft.
Tenzhi 01-12-05, 01:54 AM	The pistol actually comes from the DMG, reprinted with other early guns in Dragon 321. Range of 50ft. They at least made it only one shot per round, yes?
jagggar 01-12-05, 01:40 PM	D&D firearms require a standard action to reload after each shot. After six shots the rifle in question requires a full-round action to reload. I'm wondering about the weapons that will be presented in d20 Past (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/d20m/177400000), wonder about what sort of damage they will have.
Silmarien Aldalome 01-28-05, 10:29 PM	Hi there guyz - Jagggar - as promised - I'm going to contribute to this thread, by your invitation to. I was reluctant to, at first, because I want to respect your expertise and turf. But, I'm very happy to help out here. Based on my reading of MetaThread, I see a core issue in melding or blending game worlds as requiring address to the following core issues: Tools for measuring power fairly. E.g. how do you rank a laser rifle versus a fireball? Managing the interactions of powers - what do you do when hi tech hits fantasy powers? That is, do you opt for a "transparent" or "non-transparent" system? The two core options are expressed in the Psionics Handbook - this issue is addressed there, for psionics and magic hitting the stage together How many different worlds or powers are we looking at? What simple methods can we create to manage the integration of game powers? regards stav
Tenzhi 01-29-05, 01:30 AM	Tools for measuring power fairly. E.g. how do you rank a laser rifle versus a fireball? You don't. You rank it versus a bow & arrow.
Silmarien Aldalome 01-29-05, 10:44 AM	Hi Tenzhi, I was thinking of Tyranor, when I posted. That's where futuristic gamers might encounter the more core rules gamers. At the Metaplane where all the cosmoses are at a reality nexus. Are we in a position where we can manage that situation with the rules we have? I suppose what I'm wanting to know is - what happens when luke skywalker meets conan the barbarian? bab, saves, skills, feats, spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities - how should that list be modified to make sure its broad enough to encapsulate other d20 games? - and do we have a nice table anywhere that adds weapons like light sabers, rifles, lasers etc in D&D format? I think those two areas cover the core bits we'd need for Tyranor - for a PC star wars PC, for example. regards stav
jagggar 01-31-05, 08:40 PM	Based on my reading of MetaThread, I see a core issue in melding or blending game worlds as requiring address to the following core issues: Tools for measuring power fairly. E.g. how do you rank a laser rifle versus a fireball? Managing the interactions of powers - what do you do when hi tech hits fantasy powers? That is, do you opt for a "transparent" or "non-transparent" system? The two core options are expressed in the Psionics Handbook - this issue is addressed there, for psionics and magic hitting the stage together How many different worlds or powers are we looking at? What simple methods can we create to manage the integration of game powers? I sort of agree it would be guns and bows compaired to eachother. I don't think that automatically means that they should be of equivilant damage though. I could see a grenade of some sort being compared to a fireball. It's my opinion that magic and technology is "non-transparent". Why else would we have cars and lasers? I certianly don't see wizards and sorcerers flying around; there's a reason we ended up building planes. The right grenade is a fireball as I said before. Many as people can think up? The conversion work I'm most "able" to do is the technology from d20 Future. Being mostly a toolbox and in the SRD, the stuff in it can be used more flexibily than something else. Hope that WotC gave the D&D line and the Modern line about the same power scale and make the fewest possible changes to each of the systems. - what happens when luke skywalker meets conan the barbarian? bab, saves, skills, feats, spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities - how should that list be modified to make sure its broad enough to encapsulate other d20 games? You find some friends with Star Wars d20 and some with Conan the Roleplaying Game. Check for a warning label that says the classes are not balanced for play with standard d20 classes (GoO's Slayers d20 has something like this in it), then set Luke and Conan at equal levels and get out the dice. - and do we have a nice table anywhere that adds weapons like light sabers, rifles, lasers etc in D&D format? Not sure if it's a "nice" table, but a d20 Modern SRD (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/msrd) does exist. If you want HTML format, you can go here (http://www.12tomidnight.com/d20modernsrd/Home.php) for the d20 Modern part of it. I haven't looked for an HTML format of the rest of it yet. There's also very very small table in the DMG somewhere, but I believe there aren't any prices and they aren't the exact same weapons as presented in d20 Modern/Future rules. I read a blurb at the back of Dragon about d20 Past which said "It provides rules for creating characters and campaigns that blend realism and fantasy. Not quite sure what that means, but I do intend to find out.
Silmarien Aldalome 02-01-05, 06:04 AM	It's is great hands with you at the helm here, Jagggar - you're good at this. About the 'fireballs versus guns' comment - *smiles* - your point of comparison is better (my comment was a general comment only - about measuring game-power across different gaming environments) :) Also - thank you for the very well-organised post and URLs. I support your position on non-transparent methods (i.e. a Dispel Magic, for example, can't nullify a laser rifle). So that leaves us in good shape on this thread. Are you left with any pressing matters that you need explored? Or can we help you with any particular issues? Regards stav
jagggar 02-01-05, 12:59 PM	I think it's a bit more of an issue over specific materials that have a little difference now. Our first point that came up was defense. In d20 Modern, each class has a Defense progression. In Modern, this number stacks with armor to give AC. My character jagggar as the example: AC: 27 = 10 + 8 (defense) + 7 (armor) + 2 (dex) Unearthed Arcana presents a Defense variant in which either defense bonus or armor bonus is used, whichever is higher: AC: 20 = 10 + 8 (defense) + 2 (dex) Tenzhi suggests that Defense is treated as a dodge bonus and is only given when the character is unarmored and unencumbered: Armored AC: 19 = 10 + 7 (armor) + 2 (dex) Unarmored, Unencumbered AC: 20 = 10 + 8 (defense) + 2 (dex) Unarmored, Encumbered AC: 12 = 10 + 2 (dex) It should be noted that none of the basic classes from d20 Modern come with armor proficiency feats for free or even as bonus feats. To become proficent with armor as a Modern/Future character, you must spend feats gained by leveling (or other bonus feats such for being human). Then there is the issue of enchanting armor and weapons. I found the Multi-verse Foundation (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=222029) through Lord Nat's sig. That's what inspired me to come up with the chart which limits how much enchantment an item can take. Posted again and expanded: Maximum Maximum Progress Enchantment Enhancement Level Bonus Bonus 0,1,2 +10 +5 3,4 +8 +4 5,6 +6 +3 7,8 +4 +2 9 +2 +1 Technology in the d20 System is divided up into Progress Levels (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/msrd/FutureProgressLevels.rtf). A standard D&D campaign has a PL of 2. A (pre-epic) weapon or armor from D&D can have a total enhancement value of up to +10 with half of that, +5, being actual enhancement bonus, the rest coming from other enchantments. At a higher PL such as the current Information Age (PL 5), weapons and armor could have up to a total value of +6 with half of that, +3, being the actual enhancement bonus. At PL 8, Unisoldier combat armor with an armor bonus of +10 is introduced. PL 8 has maximums of +4 and +2. Comparing just those, there isn't too much difference. Highest Maximum Highest Armor Progress Armor Enhancement Bonus With Level Bonus Bonus Enhancement 2 +8 +5 +13 5 +9 +3 +12 8 +10 +2 +12 Other things that still need to be looked at are: Wealth Weapon Damage/Equipment in general Magic and Psionic "FX" Feats & Skills I think we're in agreement about: Reputation: Won't get overly messy. Is used for some class mechanics, but that is mostly it. Action Points: Class mechanics which use it can be reformed without much trouble. Massive Damage Threshold: Will be set at 50 as in D&D. Effects of MDT will be as in D&D.
Tenzhi 02-02-05, 01:19 AM	I sort of agree it would be guns and bows compaired to eachother. I don't think that automatically means that they should be of equivilant damage though. They should be of equivalent damage for balance purposes. However, there are a number of things to take into account when sussing that out. For instance, the bow can be heavily enchanted. But on the other hand, modern and futuristic pistols/handguns give one a great deal of advantage over D&D ranged weapons. They can be dual-wielded or wielded with a shield or wielded with a melee weapon without sacraficing attacks or range. Allowing them to do the equivalent damage of a greatsword is just too much. Rifles don't offer as much advantage, though fully automatic weapons do have some advantage over bows/crossbows.
Dyne 03-20-05, 03:00 PM	:bump: I plan on getting involved in this very soon.
Dyne 03-20-05, 04:00 PM	First thing I would like to say: D20 Modern and Star Wars RPG are more compatible together than either one with D&D. Changing one will very likely affect the other, since both share very similar systems. In effect, you cannot concentrate on one or the other at a time, since by making a change to one you are also likely making the same change to the other. (Ah, stupid rambling. Let me show you what I'm talking about.) For example, both systems use Reputation. Omitting one will certainly cause that the other must omit it as well. In My Humble Opinion, you should not make a change to either without first considering how it will affect the other system. In the above example, Star Wars would be affected more by the change than D20 Modern, even though the change was made with D20 M in mind. SWRPG depends on the system of Reputation for many things, and multiple Feats, Classes, and Prestige Classes are based around it. Another thing I would like to put up for "Food for Thought:" Are we adapting these systems to D&D, or are we adapting all three of these systems (plus probably others, in time) to each other? In situations where it is easier (and possibly more beneficial) to change D&D to these systems than to change these systems to D&D, would we not do it?
Dyne 03-20-05, 04:18 PM	They should be of equivalent damage for balance purposes. However, there are a number of things to take into account when sussing that out. For instance, the bow can be heavily enchanted. But on the other hand, modern and futuristic pistols/handguns give one a great deal of advantage over D&D ranged weapons. They can be dual-wielded or wielded with a shield or wielded with a melee weapon without sacraficing attacks or range. Allowing them to do the equivalent damage of a greatsword is just too much. Rifles don't offer as much advantage, though fully automatic weapons do have some advantage over bows/crossbows. Handguns could cost a lot more than a standard D&D bow. Renaissance firearms would cost hundreds of gp, a modern firearm could be priced in the thousands. Besides, the handgun wouldn't be able to be enchanted as much as a bow. I'll try to compare the two, using the guidelines from the Progress Level chart. The average handgun does 2d6 damage, which is only one size category in damage above a longbow. If both were enchanted with the highest enhancement bonus: Handgun 2d6+3 (5-15) Longbow 1d8+5 (6-13) That right there bridges the gap considerably. Looking at that, I'd say they were about balanced. I would just price a +3 Handgun at maybe a little higher than a +5 Longbow. My reasoning: The handgun is of smaller size, and so has an advantage over the longbow. The longbow has a longer range to account for its larger size. The handgun has an advantage in that, if both weapons were to lose all magical properties, it would deal more damage than the longbow. The longbow has an advantage in the above example in that its enhancement bonus to attack would be +2 higher (resulting in greater accuracy with the longbow). So, in my mind, both are pretty equal. Perhaps a non-magical handgun could be priced a little higher than a +2 magical weapon (8,000 gp) to balance it. A +1 handgun would be priced as a +3 weapon, a +2 handgun as a +4 weapon, and so on.
jagggar 03-20-05, 07:51 PM	Well, one of the questions that would have to be answered before deciding if we're adapting other systems to D&D or all three systems to eachother, would be if we would be allowed to change things that seem standard. Would the GMs allow us to add Action Points for example? Defense bonus (actually, I've got an alternate chart as opposed to the UA chart)? Reputation? So on and so forth. Will we be converting all higher tech Wealth costs into GP amounts? That sounds dangerous to me due to the economical differences the two systems are supposed to represent different styles of economy.
Dyne 03-21-05, 05:21 PM	I don't know about the Wealth system of D20 Modern, but Star Wars RPG also uses a different currency than gp. SWRPG depends on credits, which should be easier to convert than D20 M, but it still has its difficulties. From comparing items in SWRPG and D&D that are extremely similar, if not identical (there are some weapons that have the same exact stats), I've calculated that 1 gold piece is approximately the equivalent of at least 30 or 40 credits. However, if you compare the Profession skills of the two systems, which operate the same way but dish out different amounts of wealth according to their own systems, it's suggested that 1 gold piece is the equivalent of 200 credits. D&D Profession: Gold pieces per week according to Profession check divided by 2. Star Wars RPG Profession: Credits per week according to Profession check x100. This is a pretty big discrepancy. Considering these two (and considering that SWRPG relies more on Profession for cash since adventures don't generate as much loot), I would say the best way to balance them is to make 1 gold piece the equivalent of 50 credits, and change the Profession skill for Star Wars accordingly (x25 instead of x100). Either that or go straight with the suggestion from Profession, which was as I already stated to be 1 gold piece is equal to 200 credits, but I think that's a bit much. Ah, I'm babbling again. I'll post again in a bit. Perhaps I'm a bit excited, since I'm really wanting to play an Imperial Moff character with a Dark Jedi Assassin cohort. It'll be really cool, especially since I'll have my own personal Star Destroyer, granted by the Imperial Moff PrC. :cool:
Dyne 03-21-05, 05:35 PM	As for Action Points/Force Points, Defense Bonus, and Reputation, in my opinion, all of these systems must either be added to the D&D rules as well (giving D&D characters the same benefits), or they must be abolished entirely. Things are preferred to be uniform, if not for simplicity's sake but also for game balance. Action Points and Force Points, in my opinion, aren't really that important, and so could be abolished if the need be. Instead of spending an AP/FP for an ability, we could have a rule that they spend 4 hp instead or something. Or an Action Point system could be added to the D&D side as well, but some might see that as more trouble than it's worth (remember that we need simplicity, we don't want a crapload of house rules that everyone has to learn). Defense Bonus seems very important for the D20 Modern and SWRPG characters, but since they will have the opportunity and access to the same magical protective devices as the D&D characters (at least, they should have access to that equipment IMO), it will prove less necessary. These characters will likely have much more money to spend on equipment than normal, so they'll be able to afford better equipment anyway. Alternatively, a system could be adapted to give a Defense Bonus to all characters, including D&D characters. Or perhaps the Defense Bonus for non-D&D characters could be limited. In any case, Defense Bonus shouldn't be much of a problem. Reputation, on the other hand, is an entirely different matter. Reputation may not be very important to D20 Modern, but it is integral for some aspects of Star Wars RPG. First of all, at least 4 feats are dedicated to dealing with Reputation in the Core Rulebook alone, who knows how many there are in all the supplements. Reputation is also a requirement of many PrC's, as well many PrC's deal with Reputation in various ways. Removing it entirely will not only render 3 feats useless and another greatly lowered in value, it will throw many of the PrC's "out-of-whack." In addition to all this, Reputation is also Star Wars RPG's version of the Leadership feat, allowing characters to gather a number of minions/followers. Plenty of PrC's deal with this system of attracting minions, and they would need some changes to be adapted to the Leadership feat. If you consider the Action Points of big importance to D20 Modern, I believe Reputation is even more important to Star Wars RPG. Note that I don't believe it's impossible to remove the system from the game, only that it would take quite some adapting to pull it off smoothly.
Dyne 03-21-05, 05:42 PM	There are some differences with the Star Wars RPG from D&D in addition to those of D20 Modern. 1. Combat relies on Vitality Points and Wound Points, which alters how it deals with critical hits. 2. Dealing with a dying character losing hit points (after reach -1 and below), SWRPG uses a Fort Save in place of the 10% chance to stabilize. (IMO this is better and makes more sense than D&D, but it is a difference nonetheless, and it's probably better to just go with D&D since more people will be using its rules anyway). 3. There is no massive damage, since Wounds Points never get that high anyway, and Vitality Points represent stamina instead of actual damage. I would make the following adaptations to bring it in line with the Core D&D Rules: 1. Wound Points are abolished, and all Vitality Points are instead Hit Points (they still gain Vitality Points in the same way that D&D characters gain HP, but they are used to represent stamina instead of physical toughness, which is represented by Wound Points). 2. The D&D rule of 10% chance to stabilize each round is put in place of the Fort Save. 3. Massive Damage same as D&D.
jagggar 03-21-05, 06:00 PM	Is there a wealth by level chart? How does it compare to the D&D wealth by level chart? It was my thought that Profession would actually be brought in line with D&D. The setting is very D&D, so I'd think Profession rewards would be also. Could you explain more about Force Points? Are they the exact same as Action Points? My opinion is that Defense should be used as it is in UA, you get Armor or Defense bonus, whichever is more. If it's given to D&D characters or not is up in the air (though I'd use an alternate chart I created upon seeing how high the 1st level fighter bonus was). Would you say the SW Reputation is similar in numerical value to the d20 Modern progressions? Agreed on the combat & HP stuff.
Dyne 03-21-05, 07:03 PM	Force Points are very similar to D20 Modern Action Points, but they give more of a bonus to Force-Sensitive characters, and it gives different amounts depending on whether you call on the Dark Side or the Light Side (the Dark Side gives a better bonus at first, but its progression is much slower and so becomes worse at higher levels). Force Points are used for certain events, such as building a lightsaber (you also get 2 Force Points in return, upon success), and I think a few other things. Force Points are awarded a lot less often than Action Points, though. Only 1 per level, and maximum of 5 at a time unless you have the Force-Sensitive feat. But, you gain more Force Points for doing things great (whether they be heroic or sinister, depending on whether you are a dark sider). One of the big differences for the Star Wars RPG that I forgot to mention is that alignment is measured by how many Dark Side Points you have. You get Dark Side Points for calling on the Dark Side, using a Dark Side Force Skill, or for simply doing evil things (stealing, murder, etc.). Depending on how many DSPs you have, you may eventually become Tainted and then Dark, which each give bonuses to Dark Side Force Skills and penalties to Light Side Force Skills. Also, after a time, your physical ability scores (Strength, Constitution, Dexterity) can go down, representing the Dark Side deteriorating the body. Instead of DSPs, the game could instead use the alignments, Good representing the Light Side and Evil representing the Dark Side. I wouldn't mind totally abolishing the penalties for Dark Side characters, since they were designed with a heroic campaign in mind. They don't take into account the PCs being Dark Siders, and we certainly need Dark Side PCs in the game. Reputation: It progresses similarly to D20 Modern, certain classes progress faster or slower. On a side note, does anyone know if the Star Wars RPG Core Rulebook is Open Gaming Content? It should be.
jagggar 03-21-05, 07:18 PM	It isn't. That's one of the reasons I wasn't originally focusing on incorperating that into the rules. Sounds like DSP might be a bit like Taint presented in OA and UA. What's the highest Rep bonus you can end up at level 20 without feats that add to your rep? You can get +10 with Modern. The UA version maxs out at +5. I think I heard something about the Nerdery playing SWRPG. I'll see what I can do about borrowing the book or something.
Dyne 03-21-05, 07:25 PM	If you take the right PrCs.... A straight Noble 20 (Nobles, of the core classes, have the highest Reputation) will have +6. If he instead was a Scoundrel 1/Noble 9/Crime Lord 10, it would be +10. I think that's the highest possible Reputation you could get using the Core Rulebook, without adding on Feats of course. The Bounty Hunter has the same Reputation as the Crime Lord (surprisingly), but the classes required to qualify for Bounty Hunter would have a lower Reputation than Noble. Or perhaps a character was a Scoundrel 1/Noble 9/Bounty Hunter 10 with the same Reputation of +10.
Dyne 03-21-05, 07:27 PM	It isn't. That's one of the reasons I wasn't originally focusing on incorperating that into the rules. That's bogus. :banghead:
jagggar 03-22-05, 07:59 PM	Okay, cause taking Charismatic Hero and Personality get you a +10 bonus at level 20. I think we might have to adjust UA's Reputation if we can get these added. I think the "Leadership" ability of Reputation should probably be dropped in favor of the regular D20 Leadership feat. I do like how the bonuses and penalties are handled with SW much, much more than the way it is in Modern and UA. Infamy providing a bonus to Intimidate is much more realistic than a penality. Just looking at the Rep. so far and actually it doesn't seem too integral to the system. But you said there are PrCs and class features that use Rep, right? I'll have to learn more about Force Points before commenting on those. Like I said via email, I'm kinda sick right now.
Dyne 03-23-05, 07:29 PM	PrC's with features that depend on Reputation: From the Core Rulebook Crime Lord Requires Reputation Bonus +2 and the Infamy feat. Minions-Add Crime Lord level to Reputation checks to attract followers. Exceptional Minions-Maximum total levels of minions is twice Reputation bonus (instead of just Reputation bonus) (effectively twice as many (or twice as powerful) followers). Officer Requires Reputation Bonus +2 From the Dark Side Sourcebook Emperor's Hand Requires Reputation Bonus +2 or lower (can not be higher than +2) Imperial Inquisitor Requires Reputation Bonus +2 Sith Lord Requires Reputation Bonus +3 Minions-Same as Crime Lord Exceptional Minions-Same as Crime Lord Sith Warrior Requires Reputation Bonus +1 From Hero's Guide Web Enhancement Holovid Star Requires the Fame feat. Celebrity-Can add Holovid Star levels to Reputation when dealing with Commoners, Thugs, Diplomats, and Experts (non-professional/non-heroic classes/ordinary characters) Look-a-likes-Reputation bonus no longer applies as a penalty to Bluff checks to deny or hide identity. Major Celebrity-Can add Holovid Star levels to Reputation. (basically, the Celebrity ability is no longer limited to dealing with ordinary characters) Corporate Viceprex Requires Reputation +3 Minions-Same as Crime Lord Signing Authority-One of the options of this ability is to raise the total levels of his minions to twice his Reputation bonus for the remainder of one adventure. (can only be used once per adventure, and costs one point of Sympathy with the Corporate Sector Authority (Sympathy is covered in an excerpt of the Hero's Guide and is a big part of interacting with different factions)). Imperial Moff Requires Reputation Bonus +4 Shadow Wing Captain (this is from a different Web Enhancement than the others, but still for the Hero's Guide) Requires Reputation Bonus +5 Recruits-Same as Minions of the Crime Lord PrC. Those are the ones that I have (which are only from the Core Rulebook, Web Enhancements, Excerpts, and the Revisions to the Dark Side Sourcebook). I'm certain there are plenty more out there.
jagggar 03-23-05, 07:44 PM	Drat, and I thought we were all done messing with followers. Doesn't sound like there'd be any way to convert those follower effecting things to the D&D Leadership does it? Reputation could be easier to remove if we did that. Then applied it only when special abilities said to and dump the skill effecting part of it.
Dyne 03-23-05, 07:50 PM	If we dump Reputation, the Holovid Star in particular would be almost completely worthless. It has too many abilities that totally depend on it. However, I'm certain the Minions and Exceptional Minions abilities could be adapted to affect the Leadership feat instead. This wouldn't be very difficult, actually. I already have some ideas: Minions: Add the class levels to the Leadership Score (note that the levels in this class are counted twice, once in the Character Level and again in this bonus). Exceptional Minions: All minions are one levels higher than they normally would be. Those might seem rather powerful, however. On the thought of Followers, in Star Wars RPG, Commoners, Thugs, Diplomats, and Experts (the non-heroic classes) count as half their level for the purposes of attracting followers (so you can have twice as many non-heroic characters as you could have heroic characters). Could that be worked into the game somehow?
jagggar 03-23-05, 08:14 PM	Maybe. Do we even have a clear ruling as of yet if followers may be of any class or just of NPC classes as it seemed to say in 3.0? I'm thinking about using Action Points as Force Points. I changed the by level chart so it worked with the Action Point chart (not using a side of the force now maxs out at 3d6). Only problem still is the time that FP are supposed to last. Could just say that they're cut down to one roll just as AP are. One of my other thoughts connects to Force Skills. Converting VP/WP -> HP, the VP drain would become non-lethal damage. An AP could be spent to negate some amount of that damage taken. I'm not sure what amount though.
Dyne 03-23-05, 09:06 PM	I would expect we're going by 3.5 (followers can be any class). FPs should affect only one roll anyway, in my opinion. So that would work. I would prefer not dropping the Light Side and Dark Side, since doing that would make the Force-Sensitive feat absolutely and completely useless. Of course, it's only one feat, and it may turn out to be better to drop them anyway. Spending a FP to reduce the VP cost could be a house rule, though I'm not sure it's even necessary. If it were going to be done, though, the amount reduced should be the result of the FP/AP dice (which would reduce most force skill costs to 0 most of the time, but hey, it's spending a FP, it should be useful).
jagggar 03-23-05, 09:42 PM	Here's what I was thinking: Character Neutral Light Dark Level Force/AP Side Side 1-3 1d6 1d6 2d6 4-7 1d6 2d6 3d6 8-10 2d6 3d6 3d6 11-14 2d6 4d6 3d6 15-17 3d6 5d6 4d6 18-20 3d6 6d6 4d6 Alternatively, for levels 11-14 could add 4d6. Not sure which would be better.
Dyne 03-23-05, 09:56 PM	I would say do that and increase the Dark Side's dice by 1 at either 8-10 or at 18-20. Otherwise, the Dark Side has the advantage for a little while, but then the Light Side has an even bigger advantage for even longer. In fact, I would rather do away with that whole thing with the Dark Side being better at lower levels and the Light Side being better at higher levels. It's a stupid idea in my opinion. The thing that distinguishes the two are what they can affect. The Dark Side is good at destroying, and so might give more bonus dice but be limited to just attack rolls, certain skill checks (such as Dark Side Force Skills and stuff like Intimidate and some of the physical skills (Jump, Climb, etc.)). The Light Side can benefit everything but a Dark Side Force Skill, and additionally can affect AC, but the Light Side has less bonus dice (because it can affect more things). That would make a lot more sense to me. But I suppose that would be changing the system more than necessary, and we really want any and all changes to be as simple as possible. In conclusion (after a virtual waste of time), increase the Dark Side's bonus dice at 11-14 and either 8-10 or 18-20.
jagggar 03-23-05, 10:19 PM	In doing away with the difference between the bonuses of the Light Side and the Dark Side, you're doing away with fluff made crunch. It's merely our fault for deciding to start at such a high level which hurts the Dark Side. The book says that the Dark Side is supposed to be the quick and easy way to power, but those who follow it find out sooner or later that the final payoff isn't as good and that's when they're overtaken by the Light Side which gives out more power in the end. I've merely followed the pattern already presented in the book. I just reduced the final number of dice for each by one. Level Dark1 Dark2 Dark3 Dark4 1-3 2d6 2d6 2d6 2d6 4-7 3d6 3d6 3d6 3d6 8-10 3d6 3d6 4d6 3d6 11-14 3d6 4d6 5d6 4d6 15-17 4d6 4d6 5d6 4d6 18-20 4d6 4d6 5d6 5d6 Dark1 - My original suggestion Dark2 - My original alternative Dark3 - One of your options Dark4 - The other of your options The problem with Dark3 and Dark4 is that they end up with the exact same bonus that the original chart gives. The original chart gives a bonus of 4d6 to a non-force-sensitive character. I've reduced that for my new chart and therefore, the final bonus for the Dark Side must also be reduced. (The Light Side has already been reduced from 7d6 to 6d6.)
Dyne 03-24-05, 05:23 PM	Here are my suggestions: Dark Dark Dark Light Level Side1 Side2 Side3 Side 1-3 2d6 2d6 2d6 1d6 4-7 3d6 3d6 3d6 2d6 8-10 3d6 4d6 3d6 3d6 11-14 4d6 4d6 4d6 4d6 15-17 4d6 4d6 4d6 5d6 18-20 5d6 4d6 4d6 6d6 For the first option, DS has the advantage of 1 die for two steps, ties at the next two steps, then LS has the advantage of 1 die for two steps (so they are equal). For the second option, DS has the advantage of 1 die for three steps, ties at the next step, then LS has the advantage of 1 die for a step and the advantage of 2 dice at the next step. The third option is slightly weaker than the Light Side. It has the advantage of 1 die for two steps, then ties for two steps, then the Light Side has the advantage of 1 die for a step then the advantage of 2 dice for the last step. I'm considering using this one, since it gives the Light Side something nifty for having to wait for a while before it gets good. I don't want to see the Dark Side blown out of the water for the simple reason that the designers of the Core Rulebook designed it with Light Side characters in mind. EDIT: I added option 3, which is my new favorite. Also, shouldn't the tables be carried out farther than 20th-level, since we're expecting to get into Epic Levels? Another also, would it be so bad if Action Points/Force Points were just done away with? I know I'm biting myself in the bum here, but it looks like we'll have difficult even getting D20 Modern and Star Wars RPG into the game. People seem against it, which isn't fair. :allalone:
Dyne 03-26-05, 07:46 PM	Edited my post above. Also, I was trying to compare the blasters from Star Wars RPG to crossbows in D&D. A blaster rifle is about the equivalent of a heavy crossbow in use, a blaster carbine the equivalent in use to a light crossbow, and a blaster pistol the equivalent in use to a hand crossbow. I came to the conclusion that a Blaster is the rough equivalent of a +5 D&D Crossbow (this is taking into consideration damage, attack (the D&D cross has an attack bonus from the enhancement bonus), range (D&D, surprisingly, has better range), special circumstances like the fact that a blaster is immune to dispel magic and reloading time etc.). That's a bit expensive, having to pay 50,000 gp for a weapon that pretty much everyone in the Star Wars universe has. Perhaps we could instead place some kind of restrictions/penalties on blasters? Because that price is a bit much. Also, concerning ammunition, were people keeping track of how many arrows/bolts/bullets/etc. that they had in their possessions? I've noticed that this seems to go overlooked in a lot of games. And I admit, they are a hassle. The Star Wars Revised Core Rulebook gives a suggestion that, instead, you run out of ammunition on a natural roll of 1. The way it's used, you don't run out of ammunition alltogether, rather your power pack runs out of power. For D&D, perhaps it could be adapted to make you run out of arrows in your quiver, and so if you had several quivers, you'd be better prepared.
jagggar 03-30-05, 06:15 PM	I think we might be safe with saying the benifits don't improve past 20th level. It'd keep things from getting complex. Wow, just got d20 Past last night and I love it. (Stayed up till 2:30 if that's any sign of how I feel.) The gun damages for early firearms are not the same as in the Dragon article which you can find in the Seafairer's guild. The gun damages have stayed at the d20 Modern level However, the earliest guns do not allow you to add your Dex bonus to your attack roll and take 2 full-round actions to reload (1 full-round action with Quick Reload). The next stage of guns allows your Dex bonus to attack rolls but you still take a long time to reload. With the "best" guns in Past you use the Modern reload times. I gotta go now, but you can expect a few more words on the Past sometime soon. (They actually gave their Sorcerer FLAVOR!!!) :eek:
Silmarien Aldalome 03-30-05, 08:51 PM	They actually gave their Sorcerer FLAVOR!!! I wanna hear more about this. I bumpbed into the Eberron Artificer the other day - and I rather like it. Do you guys know it? stav
jagggar 03-31-05, 12:16 AM	Well, first-off, it's a 10 level Advanced Class like pretty much anything from d20 Modern. But you get the first 10 levels of casting like a sorcerer just like the Mage AdvC is the first ten levels of the Wizard. Anyway, you get a +2 to the DC of any spell with the fire descriptor that you cast. Drakeskin, an ability that gives you a natural armor bonus and fire resistance for 30 minutes with the numbers increasing as you level as well as additional uses per day. Drakebreath which is obviously a breath weapon, increasing damage and uses per day (maxing out at 6d6, 6/day). Drakesight which is basicly 60 ft darkvision and improved daylight and low-light sight. Drakeflight which gives you wings, fly(avg) 100 ft for a total of 5 hours per day. Topping out with Drakemight which gives +5 (odd number, I agree) to Str, Con, and Cha, bonus to natural armor, and the standard dragon immunities (sleep, hold, paralysis) for 10 minutes. Oh, and Combat Casting and three other bonus feats. I think it's pretty nice and was fooling around with a 20 level version last night. One of the other interesting classes is the Scientist. I'd sum it up as a wacko-wand machine. Makes "discoveries" which are in short, spells. Then makes inventions which produce the effect of said discoveries. They just happen to have 50 uses each, though there happens to be a feat which you can make them last forever. The "downside" is that only the scientist can use the inventions without the use of another feat. That's pretty much it. The one other thing that majorly catches my eye is the Shaman AdvC which can be summed up as a Druid who combines with the animal companion instead of just turning into an animal.
Silmarien Aldalome 03-31-05, 01:47 AM	I think it's pretty nice and was fooling around with a 20 level version last night Sounds cool. Have been thinking about getting some of our products tested at the Core Colloseum. I'll post the idea to MetaThread and see how it goes down. The Eberron Artificer is like a Sorcerer-Wizard-Diviner meld - (I know very little about it, except...) that you can't cast-on-the-fly-in-battle. Instead, you have to take ten minutes - but if you do - you can really do just about any spell or spell idea you can think of. regards stav
jagggar 03-31-05, 07:59 PM	Okay, back on topic: Dyne, are we thinking allowing Action Points, Reputation, and Defense would be the easist way to adapt these three systems?
Dyne 04-02-05, 02:36 PM	I don't know. It'd be easier for the SWRPG and D20 Modern players if we didn't totally mess with the rules. I know there are a lot of these players that also play D&D, so they'd be able to understand the changes, but I'm certain there are others that don't play D&D, and it would just make things harder for them to grip the new changes. I can see us doing this in either of 3 ways: 1. No changes are made to any of the systems. Star Wars rules apply to Star Wars characters, D&D rules apply to D&D characters, and D20 Modern rules apply to D20 Modern characters. This would be the easiest for the players, but it might get a little weird when characters between the different systems interact. For simplicity's sake, if this option is chosen, material from the different systems cannot be mixed. There will be no Elf X-Wing pilots, for example. 2. Changes to D&D in addition to D20 Modern and SWRPG. It would be easier to adapt all three systems to a "Core System," in which elements of all three are used, than to adapt D20 M and SWRPG to D&D. Plus, it'd be fairer for the D20 M and SWRPG players. However, I have a feeling that the D&D players would complain about this, and the D&D players are currently the majority. 3. D20 M and SWRPG are adapted to D&D. While D&D receives no changes, D20 M and SWRPG change to adapt to the D&D rules. This would be hardest on the D20 M and SWRPG players, but would probably make the D&D players happier than Option #2, where they'd have to learn more rules. I was originally in favor of Option #2, since it made the most mechanical sense. But, I'm starting to lean toward Option #1 because it'd be the easiest (since we wouldn't have to make any changes at all), even though there might be some awkwardness when several systems are interacting with one another (imagine a legion of stormtroopers fighting a tribe of orcs). I would hate to have to do #3, since the only point of it would be to appease the D&D players, and I bet the D&D players would be just as happy with #1 (although it'd be a pain for the GMs/DMs sometimes). In any case, I have so many ideas about how to handle this that I'll probably end up with several different systems, and we can just choose whichever one we like the best. I plan on making a few "Test Characters" for each system. I'll start with a Star Wars RPG character that is made using strictly the SWRPG rules. I'll play him for a little bit to see how compatible he is with the D&D rules as he is. I imagine that the SWRPG characters will work fairly well in a D&D setting. The biggest difference between the two systems is technology, and that's virtually balanced in that SWRPG characters have less wealth than the D&D characters (there's no chart for how many credits higher-level characters start off with).
Tenzhi 04-03-05, 01:02 AM	I'm in favour of option 3. I like SW and D20 Modern a lot, but for ease of play there has to be one system. As the heart of the Guild House (and the IFGW by extension) is D&D, that's the system that should be used. If that seems like it's pandering to the D&D players, consider for a moment that even simply allowing Jedi, technology, etc. into the game is pandering to the d20 Modern and SWRPG players.
Dyne 04-03-05, 09:21 PM	Then pander the SWRPG and D20 Modern players! I don't even know what the word "pander" means. Not all the guilds that have been established in the Guild House forum have focused around D&D. Heck, not all of them have even focused on any game at all. But, the thing is, all attention is focused on the D&D guilds, which are pampered to heck, that any guild that doesn't center around D&D in some way is doomed to die a slow, painful death. Having the IFWG, which was limited to D&D, sped up the process. Since I'm not in favor of seeing that happen again (there are already a few guilds here that aren't D&D, including some that have been moved from the SW Minis forum), I'd prefer that D&D wasn't the favored child again. The only reason that option exists at all because I have a feeling some D&D players will complain that other systems are allowed at all, and currently D&D is the majority.
Dyne 04-04-05, 08:51 PM	:bump: What happened to everybody? Anyway, I'm going to get ahold of the GM's. I'm going to run a SWRPG character using the SWRPG rules to see if the SWRPG rules can work with the D&D rules at all as they are.
jagggar 04-04-05, 11:56 PM	Okay, I'm clean again so you can PM me. (Wow, that sounds so wrong. . .) Actually, I think we'd have to create the least amount of rules if we go with Option 1. I didn't like it at first, but it would prevent us from having to do a crap-load of work. I say we still stick to the idea of limiting how much items can be enchanted. I think the most work that we might have to do this way, at least for starters, would be to convert the SWRPG weapons into things with higher critical multipliers. At first I can see some confusion, but if we clearly state the interaction between the systems, I don't think we'll have too many problems.
Dyne 04-05-05, 01:01 AM	I'm thinking on running two characters, actually. One as a control, and one as the test monkey that will be genetically altered as we go along. Or actually, it'd probably be better if someone else did that. You already have a D20 Modern character, and I'll have a D20 M and a SWRPG character pretty soon. If you created a SWRPG character, we'd be pretty much set for the tests in the field. So which one do you want to be? The control, or the genetically altered monkey?
Tenzhi 04-05-05, 07:56 AM	Then pander the SWRPG and D20 Modern players! I don't even know what the word "pander" means. To cater to the desires of others. Not all the guilds that have been established in the Guild House forum have focused around D&D. The Guild House forum didn't start with the Guild House forum, though. It started with a number of foundations on the D&D boards, most notably race-centered foundations. And even since those foundations got moved to their own forum here, the vast majority of the guilds that have sprung up have been D&D related. Hence, D&D is the "heart" of Guild House. Heck, not all of them have even focused on any game at all. But, the thing is, all attention is focused on the D&D guilds, which are pampered to heck, that any guild that doesn't center around D&D in some way is doomed to die a slow, painful death. Even a great number of D&D related threads die a slow, painful death. The last two pages of the board are full of D&D-related threads (and one Magic the Gathering thread with aspirations of D&D conversions). Out of the other 175 threads I imagine there might be 10-20 threads at most that aren't D&D related. That's not pampering, that's just what this forum is. This majority (of D&D-related foundation threads) existed on the boards before the forum was created to house them, and it continues to exist in the forum that was created specifically to house them. Having the IFWG, which was limited to D&D, sped up the process. The only thing the IFGW sped up, was the process of subsuming threads that were relevant on multiple levels with threads that were mostly relevant on a role-playing level. The only reason that option exists at all because I have a feeling some D&D players will complain that other systems are allowed at all, and currently D&D is the majority. And similarly, people would complain if Storyteller, RIFTs, or World of Synnibarr characters were brought in due to varying levels of incompatibility and power.
Silmarien Aldalome 04-05-05, 09:22 AM	Hi there Tenzhi, Dyne, Jagggar. Threads don't die - they just rest They go on and off-line as they are needed or as they are focussed upon. In any case every moment is all the grander for knowing that it's all going to pass. Makes us appreciate life more. The HEF was scolded, berated, laughed at, ignored, despised, stomped on, spat at, laughed at, adored, celebrated, embraced, encouraged, revered, engaged, and loyally stuck to. It's what it is from how you look at it. I promise you - I have had very dark moments of embarrassement and despair, and felt very ashamed at times, about the Foundation and very abandoned. But - every time I thought no-one was reading - and that I was posting to no-one and nothingness, someone, something or some sign would find its way to me - perhaps a PM - perhaps a post of encouragement - perhaps a moment of the Muse's inspiration - and the Journey would continue. Sometimes I would get a phone call from a friend laughing about something I'd posted. I've learned that it's about keeping Faith - and that one is one's own worst enemy. :) @non D&D folk erm, you have our promise to continue to respect and reinforce the value and importance of other kinds of systems and information. So - Dyne's ideas that he sent us today - I'm really keen to explore them. I heard some such idea about "trial ideas" or something. I'm reading :) regards stav
Dyne 04-15-05, 10:50 PM	Hmm, this could use a good bump.... How about some test battles? :D We could pit Stormtroopers against D&D Warriors and against D20 Modern Soldiers.
jagggar 04-15-05, 11:18 PM	Man do I need to get d20 Modern. I've just been using the SRD. :D On the bright side, Urban Arcana's in the mail. Hmmm. . . What sort of run throughs should we do? Melee, ranged, and mixed?
Dyne 04-15-05, 11:23 PM	Sure. I got dibs on the Stormtroopers. :D How about we start with the Low-Level Stormtroopers (level 4) against level 4 D&D Warriors? Does 5 on each side sound good? We should probably do this at the Mountain Top Arena, though.
jagggar 04-15-05, 11:30 PM	Warriors or Fighters? There a PC/NPC class distinction going on in SWRPG? And 5 sounds a bit high. I'd go with 4 since that seems to be the magic number with D&D. Fighter, Cleric, Theif, Magic-User.
Dyne 04-15-05, 11:33 PM	Stormtroopers are Thugs, the SWRPG version of Warriors. 4 it is, then.
jagggar 04-15-05, 11:42 PM	Okay then. Sounds okay I guess. Drat. Why can't the DMG have pre-built warriors rather than just fighters and other PC classes? Sudden question: Why are we testing NPC classes for balance? We should be testing PC classes for balance here. I don't think many people are going to play NPC classed characters, and even then, they're supposed to be less powerful.
Dyne 04-15-05, 11:46 PM	Because the NPC classes for SWRPG have different rules than D&D, and are even more awkward than the PC classes. If you would prefer, we could test out Fighters against Soldiers. And I'm wanting to hire a bunch of NPC's as soldiers, particularly stormtroopers.... :shifty:
jagggar 04-15-05, 11:51 PM	*shrug* Well, I am a lazy bum right now. . . And half of what is going through my mind is wanting someone to help me make a plot device. . . Ummm. . . yeah. . . Anyway. That'd be easier I guess. And how funky are the NPC classes?
Dyne 04-15-05, 11:53 PM	There are special rules on how to kill them. Basically, they don't have Vitality Points, they only have Wound Points, which don't increase as they gain levels unless they increase their Constitution or take a feat.
jagggar 04-15-05, 11:59 PM	Ah, fairly funky indeed. Okay, I guess I'm ready enough. Since I'm lazy, I just wanna go with the fighter written up in the DMG. I don't think they changed it when they updated to 3.5, so I'm good there. That work for you? Of course, I've just realized that this method is actually going to have me doing work. Blah.
Dyne 04-16-05, 12:11 AM	I'll go with an 8th-level Stormtrooper. It's supposed to be the equivalent of a 4th-level Soldier. No really, it is. :D Off to the Mountain Top Arena.
jagggar 04-16-05, 12:13 AM	OKay. . . Uhhhh. . . Right. . . What's the match going to be exactly?
Dyne 04-16-05, 12:15 AM	How about one Mid-Level Stormtrooper (level 8) against one 4th-level D&D Fighter, to keep things simple.
Dyne 04-16-05, 05:29 PM	Ready for the fight, jagggar? I posted at the Mountain Top Arena.
jagggar 04-16-05, 07:21 PM	80 feet (about 24 meters) Initiative = 3 (http://invisiblecastle.com/find.py?id=75082)Initiative (1d20+5=22) (http://invisiblecastle.com/find.py?id=75084) The fighter draws his bow back, letting an arrow fly at the foriegn warrior. attackroll;damage if hit (1d20+6=12, 1d8+3=8) (http://invisiblecastle.com/find.py?id=75086) He strides forward, hoping to close the distance. 30 ft. towards the stormtrooper, now appart by 50 ft.Hit, but armor reduces the damage to 3 (12 Wound Points left). The arrows flies true, striking the stormtrooper square in the chest, but his armor lessens the impact of the wound. The stormtrooper draws his blaster rifle and lets fly a barrage of blaster fire. Attack1 = 18 (http://invisiblecastle.com/find.py?id=75088) Damage = 13 (http://invisiblecastle.com/find.py?id=75089) Attack2 = Automatic Miss (http://invisiblecastle.com/find.py?id=75090) Damage = N/AVery close, it's a 19. The fighter grins, glad he spent the last of his gold on the full-plate. Not only this, but the white-clad warrior hadn't moved. The fighter drops his bow, charging, drawing his sword and raising it above him with both hands. Charge;two-handed damage (1d20+11=25, 1d10+6=10) (http://invisiblecastle.com/find.py?id=75091)5 points of damage (7 WP left). That Fighter may actually win. Although the strange soldier is heavily armored, the sword appears to cause considerable damage. Nevertheless, he takes a step back and opens fire again. Using Multifire (one extra attack, but all attacks take -4 penalty) Attack1 = 9 (not getting very good rolls...) (http://invisiblecastle.com/find.py?id=75094) Damage = N/A Attack2 = 11 (http://invisiblecastle.com/find.py?id=75095) Damage = N/A Attack3 = 9 (http://invisiblecastle.com/find.py?id=75096) Damage = N/A Sigh, such crappy rolls....Assuming 5-foot step. The fighter moves forward again, putting more force behind his swing this time. PowerAttacking;Damage (1d20+8=20, 1d10+8=11) (http://invisiblecastle.com/find.py?id=75097) I think it likes me. . .6 points of damage (1 WP left). The strike once again penetrates the armor, cutting through to the man inside. The stormtrooper stumbles, badly injured. But the honor of the Empire is more important than his own life, and so he draws a Frag Grenade and drops it to his feet. Suicidal grenade attack (he was probably gonna die anyway). Automatic Hit (it damages everything within 4 meters ('bout 12 ft.), so it's kinda hard to miss). Damage = 16 (http://invisiblecastle.com/find.py?id=75108) Reflex Save DC 15 for half damage.Reflex Save (1d20+2=16) (http://invisiblecastle.com/find.py?id=75109) Wow it likes me. HP=26 The blast startles the fighter, but he is able to turn aside, taking less damage than another might've. (Umm, he's dead now, right?) Okay, so where does this wonderful fight leave us?
Dyne 04-16-05, 07:25 PM	What would happen if all die rolls were average: Fighter's Initiative = 15 (1d20+5) Stormtrooper's Initiative = 11 (1d20+1) Fighter's Turn 1: Longbow Attack = 16 (1d20+6) Damage = 7 (1d8+3) (reduced to 2 because of Stormtrooper Armor (13 WP left)) Move up 30 ft. Stormtrooper's Turn 1: Blaster Rifle Attack = 19/14 (1d20+9 / 1d20+4) Damage = 13 / Miss (21 hp left) Fighter's Turn 2: Charge: Bastard Sword Attack = 21 (1d20+11) Damage = 11 (reduced to 6 (7 WP left)) Stormtrooper's Turn 2: 5 ft./2 m. step backward Blaster Rifle Attack = 19/14 (1d20+9 / 1d20+4) Damage = 14 / Miss (7 hp left) Fighter's Turn 3: 5 ft./2 m. step forward Bastard Sword Attack = 19 (1d20+9) Damage = 11 (reduced to 6 (1 WP left)) Stormtrooper's Turn 3: 5 ft./2 m. step backward Blaster Rifle Attack = 19/14 (1d20+9 / 1d20+4) Damage = 13 (Fighter would be at -6 hp) The Stormtrooper would've won if average rolls happened across the board, but it would have been one HECK of a close fight. And the Stormtrooper had a slight advantage because of range (although he could have fired at up to 100 ft./30 m. without penalty), so under different circumstances, the Fighter would be more likely to win. Conclusion: A 4th-level D&D Fighter is almost the exact equal of an 8th-level Star Wars RPG Stormtrooper (as they should be). Now, let me try it with a 4th-level Soldier instead of a Stormtrooper. EDIT: Or maybe a 4th-level Stormtrooper versus a 2nd-level Fighter, and then a 12th-level Stormtrooper versus a 6th-level Fighter?
jagggar 04-16-05, 07:31 PM	Fighter Turn 3 should look like: 5 ft./2 m. step forward Bastard Sword - Power Attack -1/+2 (2-handed)= 18 (1d20+8) Damage = 13 (1d10+8) That kills it, right?
Dyne 04-16-05, 07:38 PM	Fighter Turn 3 should look like: 5 ft./2 m. step forward Bastard Sword - Power Attack -1/+2 (2-handed)= 18 (1d20+8) Damage = 13 (1d10+8) That kills it, right? If he Power Attacked, but I was going off straight average circumstances (excluding Power Attack). I just realized. After taking any kind of Wound Point damage, the Stormtrooper would be Fatigued (-2 Str and -2 Dex). He would also have a chance of being knocked out every time he was hit. This makes him even weaker in comparison to the Fighter.
jagggar 04-16-05, 07:45 PM	So wait, after the fighter hits him for damage once he isn't hitting the AC 19 anymore?
Dyne 04-16-05, 07:49 PM	Correct, and the Stormtrooper's AC would go down to 11. Thinking on it, even beside the special rule for losing Wound Points, the Fighter is far superior to the Stormtrooper. The Stormtrooper would barely be hitting the Fighter's AC, but the Fighter's attack is high enough that he could use Power Attack and still be easily hitting the Stormtrooper.
jagggar 04-16-05, 07:53 PM	Okay, I'm thinking I'd rather test out the PC class before we do multiple tests on NPC classes. I mean, after all, players should be more important than their followers, and hence PC classes more important than NPC classes.
Dyne 04-16-05, 08:01 PM	All right. How about that 4th-level Fighter against a Low-Level Mercenary (4th-level Soldier)?
jagggar 04-16-05, 08:03 PM	Sounds good I guess.
Dyne 04-16-05, 09:33 PM	D&D vs. Star Wars RPG Test #2: Action! The mercenary strode out into the arena like he owned the place. His technology was far superior to these archaic savages. Surely he couldn't lose. Initiative = 7 (1d20+6) (http://invisiblecastle.com/find.py?id=75182) Man, that dice bot hates me.... I'm rolling as "Low-Level Soldier1". How about we forget the links, we could search the users' rolls anyway. Bob begins the fight the same way his unnamed cousin had. Attack;Damage (1d20+6=7, 1d8+3=5) (http://invisiblecastle.com/find.py?id=75184) Drat! Bob closes 30 ft. The merc laughs as the arrow falls short. He draws his heavy blaster pistol and fires a shot at the fighter. Attack ; Damage = 24 ; 16 (http://invisiblecastle.com/find.py?id=75185) I believe the Figher now has 18 hp. Bob must be related to the previous fighter since he follows suit, dropping his bow and charging. Charge/PowerAtt;damage (1d20+9=20, 1d10+10=16) (http://invisiblecastle.com/find.py?id=75186) And could I get a link there? The merc narrowly dodges the blow with the sword, taking a small cut to the left arm instead of a full wound. He then hops back and fires another shot. (He lost 13 Vitality Points, bring him down to 21) Attack ; Damage = 9 ; 14 (miss) (http://invisiblecastle.com/find.py?id=75187) Thanks. Bob steps forward swinging his sword again. attack;damage (1d20+9=15, 1d10+6=8) (http://invisiblecastle.com/find.py?id=75188) #1900!!! The attack barely misses the merc. He continues to step back away from the man with the sword, and he fires two quick shots Rapid Shot (http://invisiblecastle.com/find.py?id=75189) 1Attack ; Damage = 5 ; 14 (Miss) 2Attack ; Damage = 21 ; 16 I believe the Fighter has 2 hp left. Bob grimices from the pain but steps forward attacking again. att/dmg (1d20+9=17, 1d10+6=11) (http://invisiblecastle.com/find.py?id=75191) fighter @ 2hp The merc dodges the attack again, but he looks to be tiring. (8 damage, bringing the Merc down to 13 VP) Rapid Shot2 (http://invisiblecastle.com/find.py?id=75194) 1Attack ; Damage = 24 ; 13 2Attack ; Damage = 21 ; 12 I believe that is dead twice over. http://www.gamersquare.com/forum/images/smilies/weapon-enforcer.gif Well, the Soldier won the battle with Vitality Points to spare. At first, it seemed to be doing quite well in comparison to the Fighter, but that may be because of die rolls. Let's see how it would have played out assuming average rolls: Wait for it....
Dyne 04-16-05, 10:02 PM	Soldier's Initiative = 16 (1d20+6) Fighter's Initiative = 15 (1d20+5) Soldier's Turn 1: Blaster Rifle Attack = 16 (1d20+6) (Miss) (This is how they would all end up) I'm going to do something different for the Soldier. Since he has a 40% chance to hit each time (he has to roll a 13 or higher), I'm going to treat him as dealing 40% of an attack's average damage each time. Soldier's Alt Turn 1: Damage = 5.4 points of effective damage (Fighter has 28.6 effective hp remaining) Fighter's Turn 1: Longbow Attack = 16 (1d20+6) (Hit (barely)) Damage = 7 (1d8+3) (Soldier has 27 VP) Move forward 30 ft. Soldier's Alt Turn 2: Damage = 5.4 points of effective damage (23.2 effective hp remaining) Fighter's Turn 2: Charge: Bastard Sword Attack = 21 (1d20+11) Damage = 11 (1d10+6) (Soldier has 16 VP) Sodier's Alt Turn 3: Damage = 5.4 points of effective damage (17.8 effective hp remaining) Fighter's Turn 3: (I believe you might've made an error here. If he took a -1 penalty to attack, it would change his attack to 1d20+8 and damage to 1d10+8 (that's how you did it last time)) Bastard Sword Power Attack = 18 (1d20+8) Damage = 13 (1d10+8) (Soldier has 3 VP) Soldier's Alt Turn 4: Damage = 5.4 points of effective damage (12.4 effective hp remaining) Fighter's Turn 4: Bastard Sword Attack = 19 (1d20+9) Damage = 11 (1d10+6) (Soldier has 0 VP, 7 WP, is Fatigued (35% chance to hit), and a 30% chance of being knocked out. Assuming average roll, the Soldier would make his Fort save and remain conscious) Soldier's Alt Turn 5: Damage = 4.725 points of effective damage (7.625 effective hp remaining) Fighter's Turn 5: Bastard Sword Attack = 19 (1d20+9) Damage = 11 (Soldier is at -4 WP, is unconscious, and will probably die) The Figher should've won. He had a much greater chance of scoring a hit than the Soldier did. And the Fighter would've won without living up to his potential. The Fighter could take a -3 penalty to all of his attacks and still be likely to hit the Soldier's Defense of 16. The Soldier, on the other hand, would've needed another two turns before he took out the Fighter. EDIT: Wait, the Soldier had a vibroblade he could've used in melee. And I think I forgot that armor's Damage Reduction doesn't apply to Vitality Points. Arrgh, could we try that again? Can't be too cautious.
jagggar 04-16-05, 10:13 PM	I guess so.
Dyne 04-16-05, 10:15 PM	This time, could you use Power Attack -3 each time? And I'll make sure to use the Merc to his full potential.
jagggar 04-16-05, 10:16 PM	Sure, once I get up there.
jagggar 04-17-05, 01:41 PM	As Cazic said, we should do a spellcaster against a SW spellcaster equivalent. I'm really open to having someone else do that if anyone would like to battle.
Dyne 04-17-05, 05:45 PM	The thing is, there is no spellcaster equivalent for Star Wars RPG. The closest thing would be a Jedi, but they could be as good (if not better) at fighting as a Fighter. How about a Force Adept against a Druid? I believe they are somewhat close in style.
jagggar 04-17-05, 06:18 PM	I don't know, you're the one with the SWRPG book. But on the other hand, if Jedi are as powerful as fighters and spellcasters, well, then I think they'll face some heavy nerfing before they're allowed. Also, I'm likin' the idea of making up some "custom" SWRPG characters and fighting them against some of the ones people have already made. Might be a better test to some degree.
Dyne 04-17-05, 06:33 PM	Jedi are in no way as powerful as a D&D spellcaster. They just have similar abilities as a spellcaster and a Fighter. I don't really think they should be nerfed because their Force abilities are costly, draining their Vitality Points for each use. So if a Jedi goes crazy with his Force skills, he would be easily killed in combat.
jagggar 04-17-05, 07:03 PM	No, I was saying if it was as powerful as a spellcaster and a fighter all rolled up in one, then there'd have to be nerfage. Would anyone volunteer to run a D&D character or two against SWRPG and d20 Modern characters? Or am Dyne and I the only ones reading this topic now?
Dyne 04-17-05, 07:05 PM	Perhaps you would do better asking at the Mountain Top Arena or Meta.
jagggar 04-17-05, 07:17 PM	Very true.
Dyne 04-17-05, 07:17 PM	What about D20 Modern Soldiers against Fighters?
jagggar 04-17-05, 07:32 PM	Well, I'd kinda have to make those since I don't actually have d20 Modern yet. And I think a lot of the sample characters are Ordinaries as opposed to heroic characters. I'll skim through the ones in d20 Past and see about them.
alaron 04-21-05, 12:09 PM	I have a starwars spell caster do you want me to post it and test against a wizard or sorcerer. What level do you want? She is smart, and what a bout races I mean with the 183 starwars races and the monsterous races of DND options just keep opening up.
Dyne 04-21-05, 05:30 PM	Races aren't as big a deal, since they work essentially the same as D&D races. Unless it's an especially awkward race, like a Hutt or Yuuzhan Vong.
Dyne 04-22-05, 07:09 PM	:bump: Jagggar, you still up and about? I could whip up a Force-User to test it against a D&D spellcaster, if anyone's up for it.
NightScreamer20 04-24-05, 01:54 AM	I just had a question... Someone mentioned you were trying to make Action Points DnD 3.5e style... Why?
jagggar 04-24-05, 12:12 PM	Why not? Don't worry, I think we've fairly certianly scrapped that idea. I'm not very confident in my ability to play a spellcaster. I'd rather get someother people to run the wiz/sorcs against the characters we're testing.
NightScreamer20 04-24-05, 12:33 PM	Why not? Don't worry, I think we've fairly certianly scrapped that idea. I'm not very confident in my ability to play a spellcaster. I'd rather get someother people to run the wiz/sorcs against the characters we're testing. I just mean because the guys who did the Eberron Campaign Setting already did it...
alaron 04-25-05, 12:09 PM	Right now I am at home and thusly I am not able to post at the rate I would like to. @Dyne: 1st I did remember to look over the star wars stuff you asked for. 2nd What about force points for standard classes and modern classes. 3rd I also have d20 modern and I would like to help there also. 4th if you have not noticed I post at odd times I Mean in the middle of what appears to be the school day and not on the weekends as much, sorry about that but it will change this upcoming month. and I should become more reliable 5th I would like to make the force user, instead of the mage, I have a force adept (which in my opinion is closest to a sorcerer)made and I would like to give it a try. @all: 1st what type of coin are we using I mean the SWRPG characters only start with 155,000 if (I am not mistaken) at 15th level and the DnD characters have 200,000 or more 2nd how in the game is force strike suposed to work, I have had some issues with it, I mean is it damage to WP or VP I can't tell in the text, and if it is WP is the person immediatly fatigued. 3rd how are we going to handel lightsabers? I was thinking we should considre them as having the adamantine ability (Which grants the ability to ignore the 1st 20 points of hardness and a +1 inherent magical bonus very fair in my mind.) otherwise any character that takes the weapon proficency (Lightsaber) would just go about sundering weapons and making the game no fun at all, and if they ignore DR also it would be a gigantic pain in the ass for people who worked hard in character development to gain an amazing DR to not suffer from the embarasment of having their character killed by a little munchkin character using an absurdly over powered weapon. (suggested by Kingside_Bishop)
NightScreamer20 04-25-05, 01:41 PM	I don't have the SWRPG books, but being a Jedi is the main focus of the whole game? I would've assumed it had a much broader spectrum then that... I think I'll go get the books to read for myself. I'd love to be able to contribute.
alaron 04-25-05, 05:57 PM	@NightScreamer20 That would be very nice of you I mean to contribute so willingly even at a cost to your self. @jagger,@NightScreamer20 I hope that one of the two of you get the open DM spot.
Dyne 04-25-05, 11:34 PM	Okay to get things started (not in any particular order): Jedi aren't necessarily the main focus of the Star Wars RPG, but they are the most different in comparison to D&D. I think changing the lightsaber to function as adamantine would be a good idea. Force Strike does Vitality damage just like anything else. Physical damage just refers to it not being energy damage, just like a vibroblade does physical damage, but it still damages Vitality before Wounds. It would be nice to have a few more people aboard to help out with all this. Feel free to contribute in whatever way you can. I think pretty much everyone is posting erratically at this point, so don't worry about it. Things will really turn around once the IFG2 gets kicked off. There's a starting amount of credits for SWRPG characters above level 1? Where's that in? The Hero's Guide, I'm guessing? I've won my share of Mage Duels, so I wouldn't mind testing out some spellcasters. I might be rather erratic at posting, however, and I can't guarantee how long it'll be before I have a Sorcerer or Wizard ready.
alaron 05-09-05, 06:17 PM	Hey all it is time for a bump. I have a few questions: 1st there is a conflict between rules on the same topic, which rule set wins? for instance, consider that in the SWRPG setting attacking with a ranged weapon in melee grants a bonus to damage and attacks, where as in d20 modern it does not, and in DnD it provokes an attack of opprotunity and in the other systems it does not. 2nd what sw weapons are fighters proficient with? 3rd how accessible are SWRPG weapons and technologies? 4th Do you think that spellcasters should count as force uses for certain things such as telepathy and memory sharing which only work on force sensitive beings? these paticular aspects are granted abilities of a race. What level did you want the force user?
jagggar 05-09-05, 08:59 PM	Umm, I think 15 would be a good level to make it at since that's the level everyone else is starting at and therefore it would be a good level to measure the power at. Who are we getting to play the spellcaster again? *looks around* I don't have a copy of SWRPG, so I can't exactly doublecheck, but in d20 Modern ranged attacks do provoke attacks of opportunity as in D&D Umm, what feat(s) does SWRPG require for profincies? ATM, I would say they aren't since we don't have total approval for using such characters yet. Once SW and Modern characters are approved, I think at first only SW characters will have access to SW tech and Modern will have access to Modern tech. Then I hope to have some people run some adventures in which the participants' guilds will recieve SW and Modern rewards. That whole idea still needs to be agreed upon by the other GMs though. My first impulse is to say no, but like I said, I don't have the book, so I don't know. Dyne?
Dyne 05-09-05, 09:09 PM	Hey all it is time for a bump. I have a few questions: 1st there is a conflict between rules on the same topic, which rule set wins? for instance, consider that in the SWRPG setting attacking with a ranged weapon in melee grants a bonus to damage and attacks, where as in d20 modern it does not, and in DnD it provokes an attack of opprotunity and in the other systems it does not. 2nd what sw weapons are fighters proficient with? 3rd how accessible are SWRPG weapons and technologies? 4th Do you think that spellcasters should count as force uses for certain things such as telepathy and memory sharing which only work on force sensitive beings? these paticular aspects are granted abilities of a race. What level did you want the force user? 1st I think they would apply for the certain systems as outlined in the rules of those systems. In SWRPG, one-handed ranged weapons (blaster pistols and the like) wouldn't provoke AoO's, but two-handed ranged weapons (blaster rifles) would. 2nd None. Fighters would have no experience at all with such weapons. They would have to take the weapon proficiency feats for them. 3rd As jagggar said, not at all at the moment. But, if/when SWRPG is put into the game, they'd be as available as D&D equipment, as long as characters had enough credits to afford them. 4th I would think not. How many people are actually wanting to use D20 M and SWRPG?
alaron 05-11-05, 01:23 AM	Here goes, 1st thank you for the help. 2nd Weapon group proficency [1 of the following] (simple, primitive, slug throwers, blaster pistols, blaster riffles, vibro weapons) I think classes that recieve martial weapon proficency should also have the vibro weapons. 3rd good chioce 4th I was just mean that they are manipulating the world around them with there mind and I think that their abilities make them slightly in tune with the force,which could be dieties, or inate power. answers to new questions I plan to use SWRPG for sure but mostly only for races. I may not be albe to play at the very beginig because I need these to be allowed in. New questions: what would a cleric of the force have as available domains.
alaron 05-14-05, 08:43 PM	I have begun translating races from the SWRPG source book "ultimate alien anthology" in to useable LA's and will submit the list soon I am currently working with K_B to get this done. I also plan to look in to class modifications and a many other balnced conversions, I will keep his thread up dated to my ideas and hopefully all of you will critique the ideas and make them better. Glad to see things are getting close.
jagggar 05-27-05, 01:12 PM	Hi all. Could someone do me a favor and stat up a 15th level spellcaster and hook up with alaron at Orcy's Arena I'm guessing. I'd like to see a spellcaster tested against a force user, but I don't have any experience with playing high-level spellcasters yet. Thanks peoples! Edit: Dropped by a couple of bookstores on the way home. Couldn't find the revised edition, but found the first edition. Are Weapon Proficiencies treated the same in both editions? If they are, I'm think my vote is for Vibro Weapons to be a seperate proficiency feat from martial weapon proficiency. (Anyone with DMG 3.5 tell me if the Exotic Weapon Proficency (firearms) counts as a fighter bouns feat or not?)
Kingside_Bishop 05-29-05, 04:47 PM	Hi, everybody! At jagggar's suggestion, I've come to help out. So, what's the current project? We've suggested a tentative start date for the games as June 12th... so it's time to build these rules! :w00t:
jagggar 05-30-05, 12:59 PM	Well, currently we're looking at converting as little as possible. Dyne and I ran a couple of combats for a few SW classes, but the important ones, the force using classes still need to be tested. We haven't really done any testing of d20 Modern/Future characters yet. I'll probably attempt to stat-up jagggar anew; the big problem with making her is getting the equipment right, that and that normally she displays fairly epic powers.
jagggar 12-14-05, 12:28 AM	In comparing the defense bonus rules, I saw that D&D classes had a bigger bonus at lower levels. Hence the remodeling of the chart: Defense Bonus Level A B C D 1 +0 +1 +2 +3 2 +1 +2 +2 +4 3 +1 +2 +3 +4 4 +1 +3 +3 +5 5 +2 +3 +4 +5 6 +2 +3 +4 +6 7 +2 +4 +5 +6 8 +3 +4 +5 +7 9 +3 +5 +6 +7 10 +3 +5 +6 +8 11 +4 +6 +7 +8 12 +4 +6 +7 +9 13 +4 +6 +8 +9 14 +5 +7 +8 +10 15 +5 +7 +9 +10 16 +5 +8 +9 +11 17 +6 +8 +10 +11 18 +6 +9 +10 +12 19 +6 +9 +11 +12 20 +7 +9 +11 +13Column A Use for monk, sorcerer, or wizard. B Use for bard, ranger, or rogue. C Use for barbarian or druid. D Use for cleric, fighter, or paladin. Defense bonus and armor bonus do not stack as in UA. When a character multiclasses, he does not use the better defense, but adds the two defense bonuses together. For example, a second-level fighter has a defense bonus of +4. If the character gains a level of barbarian (becoming a 2nd-level fighter/1st-level barbarian), his defense bonus would become +6 (+4 from being a 2nd-level fighter, +2 from being a 1st-level barbarian). Modern classes use the defense bonus provided in their respective tables. _________________________________ And I just realized (while typing the chart up) I've got two ways to do column C. I think I'm leaning towards option 2 right now. Reputation Score Level A B C(1) (2) D 1 +0 +0 +1 +0 +1 2 +0 +0 +1 +0 +1 3 +0 +0 +1 +1 +1 4 +0 +1 +1 +1 +2 5 +1 +1 +2 +1 +2 6 +1 +1 +2 +2 +2 7 +1 +1 +2 +2 +3 8 +1 +2 +2 +2 +3 9 +2 +2 +3 +3 +3 10 +2 +2 +3 +3 +4 11 +2 +2 +3 +3 +4 12 +2 +3 +4 +4 +4 13 +3 +3 +4 +4 +5 14 +3 +3 +4 +4 +5 15 +3 +3 +4 +5 +5 16 +3 +4 +5 +5 +6 17 +4 +4 +5 +5 +6 18 +4 +4 +5 +6 +6 19 +4 +4 +5 +6 +7 20 +4 +5 +6 +6 +7 Column A Use for commoner levels. B Use for barbarian, druid, monk, ranger, rogue, and warrior levels. C Use for cleric, fighter, sorcerer, wizard, adept, and expert levels. D Use for bard, paladin, and aristocrat levels. I'm not sure yet if I'll go with UA's version (use Rep score as bonus/penalty to checks) or Modern's version (bonus/penalty is +4/-4). ___________________________ And those were pretty much my ideas along those lines. Of course, that was a while ago. . . And now I'm having even more weird thoughts about Defense bonus. In all of D20 Modern (that I know of) there is only one class that provides +3 Defense bonus for taking first level. So maybe for the D&D classes you add the progressions together so a Fighter 1/Cleric 1/ Paladin 1 would only have +4 Defense or AC or whatever.
Dyne 12-14-05, 07:22 PM	I'm not sure about D20 Modern, but UA's Reputation works differently than SW's. In SW, Reputation just grants a bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy, Entertain (same as Perform), Gather Information, and Intimidate. So, if you had a Reputation bonus of +5, you would get a +5 bonus to Bluff. If it were +6, you would get a +6 bonus to Bluff. There are also the Fame and Infamy feats, which both add +3 to Reputation, but use the bonuses differently (Infamous characters use their Reputation as a penalty on Diplomacy, but they get to use their full bonus on Intimidate checks (while Famous use only half their bonus). Infamy also grants a +5 bonus on the DC for the Frightful Presence feat). I wouldn't change the tables for Defense in UA. D&D has way better armor than SWRPG, and I also D20 Modern from my knowledge. They also have Amulets of Natural Armor and Rings of Protection, as well as a host of abilities that increase AC (example: Duelist PrC) and a bunch of different creatures that receive Natural Armor bonuses. So, it would serve them right to have a lower Defense bonus. EDIT: Actually, I wouldn't distinguish different bonuses for different classes at all. The tables in UA don't take into account at all the huge numbers of core classes and PrC's in all the supplemental books. I would use the following table: Level Defense Bonus 1st +2 2nd +3 3rd +3 4th +3 5th +4 6th +4 7th +5 8th +5 9th +5 10th +6 11th +6 12th +7 13th +7 14th +7 15th +8 16th +8 17th +9 18th +9 19th +9 20th +10 EDIT2: I would also use a generic table like this for Reputation (not base the bonus on what class the character is). But, one thing that you didn't mention is Force/Action Points. In D20 Modern, I believe, Action Points are very necessary, and several class abilities deal with them. They are also used in Eberron, and also in SW (in the form of Force Points). We could implement a generic system of Force/Action Points to apply to all systems, including D&D, D20 Modern, and SWRPG. In SWRPG, characters get 1 Force Point each time they level up, and each time they do something heroic. D20 Modern characters gain significantly more than this, and I am unsure of Eberron.
jagggar 12-14-05, 10:32 PM	Think I'll take this one at a time for a bit. You know, so my brain might actually work. I wouldn't change the tables for Defense in UA. D&D has way better armor than SWRPG, and I also D20 Modern from my knowledge. They also have Amulets of Natural Armor and Rings of Protection, as well as a host of abilities that increase AC (example: Duelist PrC) and a bunch of different creatures that receive Natural Armor bonuses. So, it would serve them right to have a lower Defense bonus. I changed the table as a whole because of the bonuses at 1st level. No Modern class gets a +6 at first level and UA gives the max Modern bonus. My table is a bit higher at the end for some of the classes (+13 instead of +12) but that also considers if you go for a Fast Hero 10/(Martial Artist 10)* you'd end up with a +15 Defense. Modern has stats for all the standard D&D armors if you include Urban Arcana (which is also in the SRD). The armors are the same. The Forced Entry Unit gives a +9 AC, but does a real number on your ACP and allows no Dex bonus. (With Future, you can get 30lb plate mail with a +10 bonus. :) ) EDIT: Actually, I wouldn't distinguish different bonuses for different classes at all. The tables in UA don't take into account at all the huge numbers of core classes and PrC's in all the supplemental books. I would use the following table: Why not? That makes the wizard and sorcerer just as good as the fighter at defending himself. And how doesn't the table take the other classes into account? Even without Table 4-2 it's easy to see that classes without any armor prof. get the weakest chart, light gets second weakest, light and medium gets second strongest, and light, medium, heavy armor proficieny gets the strongest defense bonus. Now the problem we (I?) have with D&D + Modern is that none of the modern classes get armor proficency as a freebee. "Ideal" conversion would remove D&D's armor prof feats and allow the classes with bonus feats (namely fighter) to take them as bonus feats. The other difference is that without the right armor proficiency Modern armors only provide a +1, +2, or +3 for light, medium, and heavy armors respectively. Basicly the D20 Modern classes get the bonus based on if they should be good at dodging stuff. The D&D classes recieve it based on what armor they can wear. I don't have access to SWRPG any more. What do the Defense Bonuses from those classes look like? Just give like the bonus at 1st level and the bonus at 20th, not the whole progression ()* may be replaced by a different class with same progression.
jagggar 12-14-05, 10:53 PM	I'm not sure about D20 Modern, but UA's Reputation works differently than SW's. In SW, Reputation just grants a bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy, Entertain (same as Perform), Gather Information, and Intimidate. So, if you had a Reputation bonus of +5, you would get a +5 bonus to Bluff. If it were +6, you would get a +6 bonus to Bluff. There are also the Fame and Infamy feats, which both add +3 to Reputation, but use the bonuses differently (Infamous characters use their Reputation as a penalty on Diplomacy, but they get to use their full bonus on Intimidate checks (while Famous use only half their bonus). Infamy also grants a +5 bonus on the DC for the Frightful Presence feat). EDIT2: I would also use a generic table like this for Reputation (not base the bonus on what class the character is).Commoner as famous as a king, eh? D20 Modern is pretty much the same as the UA Reputation effects except that the bonus/penalty is +/-4 instead of the character's reputation bonus. From just a D&D/Modern perspective, we could drop reputation's main use and just use it for the few class effects D20 Modern has. "Next Round" we could tie in Reputation to Leadership (D20 Past presents followers and a cohort as seperate feats with your Rep as a bonus to your leadership score in each case.) but we can't really mess with it any more right now. We just got it figured out nicely.
Wilds 12-14-05, 10:59 PM	Hit me if u must but I have a question. Can D20 characters be used in the Guild war?
Dyne 12-14-05, 10:59 PM	Why not? That makes the wizard and sorcerer just as good as the fighter at defending himself. And how doesn't the table take the other classes into account? Even without Table 4-2 it's easy to see that classes without any armor prof. get the weakest chart, light gets second weakest, light and medium gets second strongest, and light, medium, heavy armor proficieny gets the strongest defense bonus. Most PrC's don't give armor proficiencies. Of course, UA remedies this by saying to take the bonus for whatever class is best (so if you have levels in Fighter, it doesn't matter what PrC's or other classes you have, you would just use the table for the Fighter for your character level). Now the problem we (I?) have with D&D + Modern is that none of the modern classes get armor proficency as a freebee. "Ideal" conversion would remove D&D's armor prof feats and allow the classes with bonus feats (namely fighter) to take them as bonus feats. The other difference is that without the right armor proficiency Modern armors only provide a +1, +2, or +3 for light, medium, and heavy armors respectively. Basicly the D20 Modern classes get the bonus based on if they should be good at dodging stuff. The D&D classes recieve it based on what armor they can wear. The idea, however, is to change as little as possible, just enough to make the systems work together and mesh without conflict. Once you start drastically changing the core mechanics of D&D (altering Armor Proficiency feats and the like), to put it simply, people will start getting p***ed off. I don't have access to SWRPG any more. What do the Defense Bonuses from those classes look like? Just give like the bonus at 1st level and the bonus at 20th, not the whole progression The chart I gave you is from the Noble and Tech Specialist classes, which have the worst progressions. The "better" classes (like Jedi Guardian and Soldier) start at +3 and go to +12.
Dyne 12-14-05, 11:04 PM	Commoner as famous as a king, eh? No, the king would obviously be considered "famous" (having the Fame feat), and so his Reputation would be +3 higher. D20 Modern is pretty much the same as the UA Reputation effects except that the bonus/penalty is +/-4 instead of the character's reputation bonus. From just a D&D/Modern perspective, we could drop reputation's main use and just use it for the few class effects D20 Modern has. "Next Round" we could tie in Reputation to Leadership (D20 Past presents followers and a cohort as seperate feats with your Rep as a bonus to your leadership score in each case.) but we can't really mess with it any more right now. We just got it figured out nicely. SWRPG uses Reputation for followers, instead of the Leadership feat, but it's really weird. When you reach LV 10, you can make a Reputation check to gain followers, and their levels can't exceed your Reputation bonus. For some reason, I can just imagine the "Next Round" to be full of gravitational and temporal distortions, in which the characters are crushed and strangled by rules mechanics. Hit me if u must but I have a question. Can D20 characters be used in the Guild war? That's what we're working on. We went all D20 characters to be usable.
Wilds 12-14-05, 11:07 PM	So they arent legal yet?
jagggar 12-14-05, 11:11 PM	But, one thing that you didn't mention is Force/Action Points. In D20 Modern, I believe, Action Points are very necessary, and several class abilities deal with them. They are also used in Eberron, and also in SW (in the form of Force Points). We could implement a generic system of Force/Action Points to apply to all systems, including D&D, D20 Modern, and SWRPG. In SWRPG, characters get 1 Force Point each time they level up, and each time they do something heroic. D20 Modern characters gain significantly more than this, and I am unsure of Eberron. Duh, I wanna save the hardest for last. I think Action Points are necessary for Modern classes. Several classes power class features with them. I'm not sure that D&D classes need Action Points. I think that the monsters are the same with the same CR, so that should mean that the classes are balanced against the same monsters and should be balanced against each other. Action Points are a given for Modern classes. Where I'm worried is with Force Points. IIRC, they add their check result to all actions in that round and have a lot more rolled than Action Points do. I know we messed around with the values previously, and we could do so again, just right now I'm lazy.
Dyne 12-14-05, 11:30 PM	I think it matters more if the characters are balanced toward one another rather than balanced against monsters in the MM. If we give Force/Action Points to D20 or SWRPG, D&D might be outdone. Besides, my ultimate goal would be for the three systems to be so closely intertwined, a character could be created using statistics from all three (Pirate Space Gnomes, anyone?). So they arent legal yet? Uhh.... Ask her. *Points to jagggar*
jagggar 12-15-05, 12:18 AM	Heh, you think you hate LA? Wait till you see the way d20 Modern handles such creatures. You get bonus HD and attack bonus for your HD, but you don't actually add those to your character level either. My point is that in D&D, Action Points are an addition, not the norm, they add power to the characters. I believe the D20 Modern classes were built with Action Points as part of the system, removing them makes them weaker than they should be. Modern classes has AP gain in them just the way other classes have Hit Die and Class Skills in their description. No, as of yet they aren't legal. Very sadly.
Dyne 12-15-05, 12:29 AM	My point is that in D&D, Action Points are an addition, not the norm, they add power to the characters. I believe the D20 Modern classes were built with Action Points as part of the system, removing them makes them weaker than they should be. Modern classes has AP gain in them just the way other classes have Hit Die and Class Skills in their description. That doesn't mean the Modern classes are equal to the D&D classes, if you take the Action Points into account. If the Modern classes retain their Action Points, they might end up more powerful than the D&D classes, and this could be a problem. Also, Action Points are an integral part of Eberron. Are we gonna distinguish between Eberron characters and general D&D characters? I think if Force Points or Action Points are used at all, all characters should get them, and Force Points should be equal to Action Points (they should effectively be the same thing). As I said, my ultimate goal would be for all the different systems to be so compatible that they could be mixed and matched with characters, so if someone wanted a character in all three worlds, he would use material from all three systems, and he wouldn't be shot for doing so.
jagggar 12-15-05, 12:35 AM	The idea, however, is to change as little as possible, just enough to make the systems work together and mesh without conflict. Once you start drastically changing the core mechanics of D&D (altering Armor Proficiency feats and the like), to put it simply, people will start getting p***ed off. Besides, my ultimate goal would be for the three systems to be so closely intertwined, a character could be created using statistics from all three (Pirate Space Gnomes, anyone?). These are actually two different goals. The latter is the ideal, but the former is what we have to aim for if we want to make this simple for people. I'm almost certian if we say, "Okay everyone, you have to do this, this, and this to rework your characters so we can let these people play Modern/SWRPG characters," we won't get a go-ahead.
Dyne 12-15-05, 12:44 AM	These are actually two different goals. The latter is the ideal, but the former is what we have to aim for if we want to make this simple for people. I'm almost certian if we say, "Okay everyone, you have to do this, this, and this to rework your characters so we can let these people play Modern/SWRPG characters," we won't get a go-ahead. Which is why I'm not vouching for altering people's characters. I'm vouching for adding on to their characters. If we say "All right everyone, since these people want to play Star Wars and D20 Modern characters, you all are gonna get this many Action Points, which you can use to make your characters kick butt even more."
jagggar 12-15-05, 07:25 PM	Still, adding on at this point still amounts to "change your character." One of two things will happen: Some of the people either won't get the message or won't understand how to add whatever we add (assuming Defense and ActionPoints mainly). Then either those characters will be underpowered or the D&D characters with the added mechanics will be overpowered. I'll post on a new Defense chart I came up with, then I'll do a fuller overview of everything we need to figure out. One thing we could try is to say Modern and SWRPG are good with whatever small changes we can make. Then we work on blending for "Next Round" and see how the few changes works.
Dyne 12-15-05, 07:30 PM	If people aren't willing to change their characters, then we can't make changes to D20 or SWRPG. There's either change, or no change. If people are resistant to change, we are better off keeping the systems completely separate, and either allowing them as-is, or banning them outright.
jagggar 12-15-05, 11:16 PM	So, in my futile efforts, I have come up with a new Defense chart. . . Level A B C D 1st +0 +1 +1 +1 2nd +1 +1 +2 +2 3rd +1 +2 +2 +2 4th +1 +2 +3 +3 5th +2 +3 +3 +4 6th +2 +3 +4 +4 7th +2 +3 +4 +5 8th +3 +4 +5 +5 9th +3 +4 +5 +6 10th +3 +5 +6 +7 11th +4 +5 +6 +7 12th +4 +6 +7 +8 13th +4 +6 +7 +8 14th +5 +6 +8 +9 15th +5 +7 +8 +10 16th +5 +7 +9 +10 17th +6 +8 +9 +11 18th +6 +8 +10 +11 19th +6 +9 +10 +12 20th +7 +9 +11 +13 You're right about the PrCs. They do cause a problem. Partial soution would be to say obviously similar PrCs would get the same bonus as their core classes. A Bard PrC would use the same progression as a bard. Dwarven Defender is obviously a Fighter type PrC and would follow the Fighter progression. The problem would come with some of the multi-path PrCs or PrCs focused on special powers.
jagggar 12-16-05, 11:00 PM	Okay, I started this last night. Really, this isn't the best summary, but it's a start. However, I asked during our GM conference last night, and whatever we do is going to have to be done without altering the D&D characters. Doesn't mean we can't keep working on the project after we get the minimal rules done, just means they probably won't get used. Defense Bonus D&D - Best progression used. Use Armor or Defense bonus, not both. D20 Modern - Class progressions added together. Armor and Defense Stack. Armor provides lower bonus if not proficient with. (Reasonable Max: 15.) Star Wars - ??? Reputation Bonus D&D - Barely any difference in progressions (Max +5 - All PC classes at 20th). Recognized PCs get bonus/penalty to skills equal to Rep Bonus. d20 Modern - Different class progressions (Reasonable Max: 12. Charismatic Hero 10/Personality 10 +bonus from Aristocrat (d20P).). Recognized PCs get a +/-4bonus/penalty to skills Star Wars - ??? Used to gain followers via check. Action Points/Force Points D&D (UA) - Enhance d20 rolls. Use a class feature extra times. Boost defense, emulate feats, extra attack (at highest attack bonus when full attack), increase caster level by 2 for a spell, cast a spell without losing it, stablize. Also improve the effects of various feats. d20 Modern - Enhance d20 rolls. Use a class feature which requires the use of an action point. Star Wars - ??? Wealth Systems D&D - Gold. d20 Modern - Wealth. Make a wealth check to purchase items. High DC items reduce wealth score. Possibly gain wealth each level in addition to rewards from adventuring. Star Wars - Credits. HP, Dying, Massive Damage, Nonlethal Damage, And a lot of killing people. D&D - HP. Massive Damage - 50, fail-die. Nonlethal compared to current HP. d20 Modern - HP. Massive Damage - Con (heroic) or 50 (super heroic), fail-dying at -1 hp. When dealt nonlethal compare to Con score, when equals or exceeds Fort (DC15), succeed-dazed 1 round, fail-unconsciounse 1d4+1 rounds. Star Wars - WP/VP. VP spent to power force skills? Proficiencies D&D - Simple, martial, exotic feats, some class specific lists. Guns - EWP(firearms, future), few guns without Dragon 321. d20 Modern - Simple, archaic (martial), exotic feats. Guns - Personal Firearms Proficiency, Exotic Firearms Proficiency (heavy machine guns, rocket launchers, grenade launchers), firearms-a-plenty. Star Wars - Weapon Groups. ???
jagggar 12-18-05, 02:40 PM	Most of this post was originally at the Multi-Verse Foundation (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=222029). I'd put it under the category of "highly suggested" for our rules. The reason is to keep some super futuristic weapon from becoming +5 blahblahblah which would make it far, far above the power it should be. It's not particularly unreasonable becuae d20 Modern (or more specificly Urban Arcana), a PL 5 setting, does max out at +3 prices. Max Enchanting Items Spell Progress Max Enchantment Level Level Bonus Total Lore 0,1,2 +5 +10 9 3,4 +4 +8 7 5,6 +3 +6 5 7,8 +2 +4 3 9 +1 +2 1 Weapon Purchase DC Increase for Magic Weapons PL +1 +2 +3 +4 +5 +6 +7 +8 +9 +10 0,1,2 +7 +9 +11 +13 +15 +17* +19* +21* +23* +25* 3 +8 +11 +14 +17 +20* +23* +26* +29* -- -- 4 +9 +13 +17 +21 +25* +29* +33* +37* -- -- 5 +10 +15 +20 +25* +30* +35* -- -- -- -- 6 +11 +17 +23 +29* +35* +41* -- -- -- -- 7 +12 +19 +26* +33* -- -- -- -- -- -- 8 +13 +21 +29* +37* -- -- -- -- -- -- 9 +14 +23* -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Armor Purchase DC Increase for Magic Armor PL +1 +2 +3 +4 +5 +6 +7 +8 +9 +10 0,1,2 +5 +7 +9 +11 +13 +15* +17* +19* +21* +23* 3 +6 +9 +12 +15 +18* +21* +24* +27* -- -- 4 +7 +11 +15 +19 +23* +27* +31* +35* -- -- 5 +8 +13 +18 +23* +28* +33* -- -- -- -- 6 +9 +15 +21 +27* +33* +39* -- -- -- -- 7 +10 +17 +24* +31* -- -- -- -- -- -- 8 +11 +19 +27* +35* -- -- -- -- -- -- 9 +12 +21* -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --*A weapon or armor/sheild of this PL can't actually have bonuses this high. Use these lines to determine price when special abilities are added in. Progress Levels (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/msrd/FutureProgressLevels.rtf) were presented in d20 Future and break technological progression into 10 levels. Check the link for the details. The first chart creates limits on how much magic weapon or armor from different time periods can "hold." It also provides a guidline for how much magical lore a society will have based on their technological level. The amount of lore translates into the maximum spell level that a character from that PL could normally cast. A character could go on a quest to undercover more lore. Or, if travel to a realm where more lore is avalible, the character may go there to uncover more magical secrets. The second and third charts are based on d20 Modern's Wealth mechanic. In Modern you have a Wealth Bonus which you add to 1d20 when you make a wealth check to purchase an item. Each item has a Purchase DC. The second chart provides how much each enhancement bonus costs for a weapon from a specific PL. The cost is total, not cumlative. The third chart provides how much each enhancement bonus costs for armor from a specific PL. The cost is total, not cumlative.
alaron 12-23-05, 11:42 PM	I think that the force adept and jedi counselor are the ones that are left hurting under the new system. But here is the paladin any way. Polly the defender of the down trodden Hobgoblin Paladin 15 Racial HD: 0 LA: 0 ECL15 EXP: 122500 Alignment: TN Need to find home region Languages: Goblin, Common, Dwarven Gender: Female Stats: Str 16 (6 pts, +2 racial) Dex 14 (6 pts,) Con 18 (8 pts, +2 racial, +1 4th level) Int 12 (4 pts) Wis 14 (4pts, +1 8th level, +1 12th level) Cha 12 (4pts) Speed: 30 ft HD: 15d10+60 (147) VP: 72 AC: 10 +2 +11 +3= 26 Dex Armor Shield Total Initiative: +2 Skills: Knowledge [Religion] Ride Handle animal Skill Pts per level: 1st (2+int) *4 2nd-15th (2+int) * 14 Skill modifiers: Ride 2+3+18=+25 Knowledge [religion] 18+1=+19 Handle Animal 1+18=+19 Feats: Armor proficiencies: Light, Medium, Heavy, and with shields Weapon proficiencies: Simple, Martial 1st Mounted Combat 3rd Ride-By-Attack 6th Spirited Charge 9th Trample 12th Skill focus Ride 15th Power attack Special abilities Detect Evil Divine Grace Lay on hands Devine Health Aura of Courage Smite Evil Remove Disease 5/week Turn Undead Special Mount Saving throws: Fort: 4+9+5=+18 Ref: 2+5+5=+12 Will: 1+5+5=+11 BAB: +15/+10/+5 Melee: 3+15/10/5=+18/13/8 Ranged: 2+15/10/5 Grapple: Items: Name Price Weight (2) +3 Heavy Lance 36,630 20 +3 Mytheral Full Plate 27,650 50 +3 Full Plate barding 15,150 100 1 cure serious wounds wand 11,250 1 Horse shoes of speed 2,000 ---- +2 Mighty (+ 3) Composite Longbows 8,700 3 +6 bridal of burden bearing 36,000 ---- 2 small kegs 400 30 15lbs alchemists fire 300 15 1 hemp rope 1 10 15 lbs gun powder (included in one keg) Included in keg weight +2 Corrosive Arrows(50) 18303 7.5 Cloak of Resistance (+5) 25,000 10 Spined Shield 2,670 15 15,946 GP Spells: 1st Virtue Protection from evil 2nd Resist Elements 3rd Heal Mount 4th Holy Sword Invocations: Psionics: Description: Sorry about the poor formating in the code box, but I am tired, and wanted to get something up quickly, without needing to search through old threads to find the right one. This is the paladin for dyne to fight with his dark jedi guardian.
Dyne 12-24-05, 12:27 AM	I don't think adding Vitality Points to D&D characters would be an option, no matter what. If the D&D players hear they have to alter their characters so that SWRPG can be added, they might not allow it into the game at all. I suppose we can play out the battle right here. Init = 13 (http://invisiblecastle.com/find.py?id=319919)
jagggar 12-24-05, 12:28 AM	Feel free to hold the battle here when you're ready for it. Okay, I posted this up on the UA/Variants board and got no replies. So I'm gunna post it here, and then probably after Xmas I'll post it up in Meta with a request to add it to the rules. Characters Modern characters gain action points at the rate stated in the class description. These can only be used for Modern characters have a defense bonus which does not stack with armor bonus, only the higher bonus applies. Modern characters have a reputation bounus which is only used when a class feature or feat calls for it. No bonus or penalty is given to skills for being recognized. A character with an allegiance to good or evil and/or law or chaos is treated as having such an alignment for the purpose of spells, etc. Skills - Too lazy to create a complete list at this time. Undecided if training will require only roleplaying, or the investment of a feat. Most skills will remain the same. (e.g. bluff, climb) Some skills require exposure to the other system's use and gaining of a rank before checks can be made according to the other system's rules (e.g. Knowledge (arcane lore) can be used to make checks about dragons as per Knowledge (arcana) after being exposed to information about dragons) Some skills (mainly Modern) cannot be used untrained by characters from the other system. (e.g. drive, pilot) A few skills are exclusive to the system and ranks must be tracked seperately. To gain ranks in the other system's skill, you must be trained. (e.g. craft, profession) Feats - May also eventually get a full list Feats from d20 Modern which were updated in D&D 3.5 use the 3.5 version. Possible change in connection with MDT change: Improved Damage Threshold does not raise the character's MDT by 3, but instead a character who fails his fortitude save is reduced to -8 hp. Wealth and Equipment Modern wealth and gold pieces are tracked seperately. You cannot purchase an item with wealth and sell it to get gold unless the sale of the item would normally raise your wealth. This is an attempt to prevent an infinate cash-flow loop. Any player attempting to use the aforementioned loop will promptly be shot with a hammer. Magical enhancements do not take to highly technological items as well. A weapon or armor's magical enhancement is limited by the PL the weapon or armor first appears in. Enchanting Items Progress Max Enchantment Level Bonus Total* 0,1,2 +5 +10 3,4 +4 +8 5,6 +3 +6 7,8 +2 +4 9 +1 +2 *A weapon or armor/shield of this PL can't actually have bonuses this high. Use these lines to determine price when special abilities are added in. Combat Massive Damage Threshold is equal to 50. A character who fails his(or her) fortitude save dies. Nonlethal damage functions as in D&D.