Post/Author/DateTime	Post
thasis 06-21-04, 09:01 PM	Since in my Guild of Pure Good people have been talking about neutrul shades of good I have decided to post a new guild in my series of Alignment based guilds. Here we discus the grays between good and evil.
thasis 06-22-04, 06:11 PM	Is seams nowone is intressted in the idea. I guess it's kinnda lame. It was worth a try. I am still supporting the idea though and if anybody joins I'll surely pay attention.
De Batavier 06-22-04, 06:21 PM	Well from the Guild of pure good, you know i don't see the area between good and evil as neutral. I think that for a PC character neutral will be quite difficult. They, contrary to animals, do have a morality. All their actions are thus moraly loaded so to speak. Therefore to be neutral they must achieve balance.
Monica Starmantle 06-22-04, 08:22 PM	Neutrality is a delicate line to balance. As beings capable of reason, humanoids, IMO, fall to at least one of the four corners of actions of alignment. Over time, anyone will fall into at least one category.
Orcy The Green Wonder 06-22-04, 09:29 PM	Orcy would join... however.... he has no opinion either way if this is good or bad. Personally Orcy doesnt know if a lot of neutral people would get together. Other than a buncha Druids or whatnot. Beware Orcy's army of neutrality! Or don't we really don't care either way. But if you anger us will shall crush you! Or not... we don't really care. :smirk: ;)
Tenzhi 06-23-04, 02:54 AM	Good, Evil, Law, Chaos - these alignments are all extremes. The neutral being is either incapable of moral decision, or their morality doesn't wend far enough to any of the four extremes to place them as one of them. While maintaining balance is one way to achieve such a state, a healthy dose of apathy also goes a long way.
De Batavier 06-23-04, 05:49 AM	I agree that apathy can also be seen as neutral. The problem i have with that that non-intervention when you should intervene could also be seen as evil. Knowingly letting others suffer while you're able to do something about it.
Ouroboros 06-23-04, 11:53 AM	Evil only if you let friends, family or you order rot. Don't pay any heads to the sealots
Tenzhi 06-24-04, 01:26 AM	Originally posted by De Batavier I agree that apathy can also be seen as neutral. The problem i have with that that non-intervention when you should intervene could also be seen as evil. Knowingly letting others suffer while you're able to do something about it. If one has to take risks to prevent the suffering then, from a neutral person's perspective, one is unable to do something about it. The more towards "good" one goes, the more risks become acceptable.
De Batavier 06-24-04, 05:25 AM	Yes the personal risk would be a factor. But would the reverse not also be true, if there is low or no risk and it is easy to intervene and you don't. It would be more of an evil act than neutral, IMO.
Tenzhi 06-24-04, 09:23 AM	Originally posted by De Batavier Yes the personal risk would be a factor. But would the reverse not also be true, if there is low or no risk and it is easy to intervene and you don't. It would be more of an evil act than neutral, IMO. In such a case, a neutral person still may not help unless there is some apparent gain - this is the sort of mercenary attitude displayed at first by Han Solo (though later he would grudgingly come to accept the fact that he was one of the good guys).
De Batavier 06-24-04, 12:43 PM	Yeah, Han Solo in the beginning would have a neutral attitude. Though does thinking neutral make you neutral?
thasis 06-24-04, 04:55 PM	Well I'm glad that people have taken an intrest in my Guild of Neutrilality. And Han Solo was ultimately Chaotic, Neutrul only out for himeself. Then he turned to Chaotic, Good after joining the rebel alliance (I know my Star Wars movies). And on the topic of is thinking Neutrul if you think Neutrul it doesn't make you neutrul. If all mass-murders thought they were doing a good thing and because they thought they were doing a good thing there alignment is good... well you can see were this is going.
De Batavier 06-24-04, 06:53 PM	Yep a guild of neutrality has it's merits. ;) So are you goining to make guilds for lawful and chaotic thasis ;)
Tenzhi 06-25-04, 01:07 AM	Originally posted by De Batavier So are you goining to make guilds for lawful and chaotic thasis ;) And if so, is it all right if I gently strangle you for not just simply making an "Alignment Alliance" thread? :behold:
anglar 06-25-04, 02:17 AM	A neutral character would never do anything except save their own neck. A neutral character would be hard pressed to ever get out of the house.
Tenzhi 06-25-04, 02:38 AM	Originally posted by anglar A neutral character would never do anything except save their own neck. A neutral character would be hard pressed to ever get out of the house. Not exactly true. A neutral character is capable of caring for others, and as the loss or harm of those he cares about would also harm him he would take steps to save them. He is also likely to take action for other personal gains. Want for wealth, security, and other creature comforts is non-aligned of itself though specific actions one takes to acquire them may certainly be aligned. Bravery and cowardice are non-aligned. A person whose family is destroyed by vampires who then systematically hunts down and destroys those vampires - perhaps using some questionable means to do so along the way - might very well be considered Neutral or Lawful Neutral. :smirk:
anglar 06-25-04, 03:26 AM	Originally posted by Tenzhi Not exactly true. A neutral character is capable of caring for others, and as the loss or harm of those he cares about would also harm him he would take steps to save them. He is also likely to take action for other personal gains. Want for wealth, security, and other creature comforts is non-aligned of itself though specific actions one takes to acquire them may certainly be aligned. Bravery and cowardice are non-aligned. In my book, those are the action of a Chaotic person. They care for others, but not above themselves. A person whose family is destroyed by vampires who then systematically hunts down and destroys those vampires - perhaps using some questionable means to do so along the way - might very well be considered Neutral or Lawful Neutral. :smirk: Might even border on LE if you catch me in a bad mood. IMO, Lawful = cares about sturcture of society Good = cares about positive wellfare Chaotic = cares about the self Evil = cares about the pain inflicted on others, usually by the self.
De Batavier 06-25-04, 07:07 AM	Originally posted by Tenzhi And if so, is it all right if I gently strangle you for not just simply making an "Alignment Alliance" thread? :behold: You could suggest to the mods to have al these threads merged ;) Neutral, IMO, would contain: amoral creatures, like animals. people that try to balance good/evil people that live in a moral void and don't ever have to take descission that could impact good or evil. I have a narrow view on neutral. Not intervening to prevent evil, when there is a low risk factor, and you are capable to easily interveen, would be evil. But i agree that intervening would be a good act. So only someone trying to balance good and evil would i still consider neutral in that case..
Tenzhi 06-25-04, 07:50 AM	Originally posted by De Batavier I have a narrow view on neutral. I have a much broader view (which may already be obvious given my statements that Chaos, Law, Good, and Evil are extremes whereas neutral encompasses all that does not reach those extremes). DnD seems to share my viewpoint when one takes into account the basic planar setup, the nature of how the planes are associated and interact with each other, and the fact that the outer planes are intrinsically tied to alignment. The plane of Concordant Opposition is representatively the largest outer plane and its borders are constantly in danger of slipping into other planes (alignments) or conversely absorbing pieces from other planes (alignments). This planar nature reflects the alignment it represents: it covers the broadest range of attitudes - from borderline good to borderline evil; borderline lawful to borderline chaotic; and all the borderlines inbetween (not to mention all that space inbetween the borders). Of course, each alignment has borderline cases, but all the other alignments only border three others whereas Neutral borders eight different alignments (and that's not counting the "tendencies" which get their own planes as well).
De Batavier 06-25-04, 08:01 AM	Yep. We differ on the range of neutral. It would in your vision take more to reach border, neutral more cirkel like and in my vision you are almost on thh border, more dot like... O vs . (Simplified) :cool:
De Batavier 06-26-04, 09:05 AM	I posted this on the Good Foundation. I see the alignments more in a triangle kind of realtion with each other than a line. good | | ------------------------gray good neutral | gray good-evil--------------------------------------------- neutral | |-------------------------gray neutral evil | evil instead of good--------|-------neutral--------|-------evil :cool:
thasis 06-26-04, 02:35 PM	I still say new topic neaded. I created the guild of neutrilality for that reason.
Silmarien Aldalome 06-26-04, 09:43 PM	[GM-Voice]Threadkeepers can set a "general tone" in an opening post - but all posters can contribute to discussion topics. We've generously moved a discussion item to this guild to keep you happy. I will be upset if we lose the discussion here too[/GM-Voice] @All The "grey-areas" discussion is a fruitful area of exploration. DB's model is really worth a looking at. As we can see from it, DB is suggesting that the approach to Neutrality from an initial starting point of "Good" is a different "alignment-mix" to that of the Neutral Character - who is moving away from neutrality and who has taken the first step towards "Good". The same is true for "Evil" "Chaos" and "Law" as these relate to neutrality. Neutrality is a very very difficult concept to define. regards stav
Ouroboros 06-27-04, 03:39 AM	This is how i see the extreems Well dwarfs are mostly lawful good right? but that is the way they are raised. they start neutral Lawful: Respect for the law (and a will to apholed it) Choatic: Respect for personal freedom (every one deserves to choose his own path starting with yourself laws get in the way) Good: Respect for others (The Live of a other is more preseus then your own) Evil: Respect for yourself (Who cares about the rest me first then maybe a other)
De Batavier 06-27-04, 06:26 AM	I think you bring up a interesting point Ouroboros. Are all creatures born as neutral. Animals will stay neutral because they don't have a morality. But intelligent creatures do and will shift. Is this pure upbringer or do some creatures have, let's say, more potential for a certain alignment. Dwarves Lawfull good for example. I would ad that a good person must also care for himself. If you can't love yourself how can you love others, or something like that. So i wonder if a evil person truly respects himself. They must at least be incapable of empathy with the feelings of others, or realy don't give a :censored: How much is upbringing how much is the nature of the thing. I would guess that a creature with fasthealing or regenaration looks quite different on damaging an other. It is his experience that it will not matter from a young age on. @ Sil, Yes i think neutrality is the most difficult of the alignments. Because a person can be neutral if he balances all. Which means is walking a thin line or some sort of sinus figure where all adds up to zero but with big (or small) shifts into good and evil.
Silmarien Aldalome 06-27-04, 10:00 PM	@Ouro Yes Ouro - the extremes are a really good way to explore what Neutrality is not. They are therefore a good starting point. The stark contrast sets some general parameters and limits. I've been wondering again, about "moral systems" and how this fits into neutrality. Clearly, it seems that animals aren't anything but neutral - and that it is the "thinkers" who can construct the dichotomy between "good evil" "law and chaos". The trouble is - cultures don't agree about what good and evil are - and thereby - the construction of neutrality is fraught with many difficulties. Regards stav
De Batavier 06-28-04, 05:33 AM	Yes, but i think we all agree some actions are more absolute on that scale, genocide for example. There is a boundry in that respect also. Some actions are viewed differently in different cultures and in different times, but some have a more universal nature. We can even see this at work in this discussion. Where i will see non-intervention being close to or even being evil. Tenzhi will see it more as neutral (Correct me if i'am seeing your view wrong) But animals we all see as neutral. So we have personal views, cultural views, temporal views and IMO absolute values of the alignments.
thasis 06-28-04, 07:38 PM	As the Guildmaster of this guild and the other Alignment Guilds I will straightin things out. The Good Guild is to deal with Pure Good (no shades of good gray). The Evil Guild is to deal with Devilish Evil (no shades of gray evil) and the Neutrul Guild deals with any shades of gray of good, evil, and whatever other shades of gray you can think about.
Silmarien Aldalome 06-28-04, 10:03 PM	Hi there Thasis - a noble endeavour no doubt - but one I think you'll find fraught with a moving target. How are Good and Evil absolute - in any way. Since your position requires this standard - I think we need to map it out here. That is - my position is that shades of grey characterise all comments we can make about alignment. I set you the challenge of convincing us that an Absolute standard exists. Hi there DeB as well - I found your previous comments very interesting - and would like to integrate them into more discussion. I'm looking to Thasis, now for some examples of "absolute" good and evil...... regards peoples stav General Invitation To reader - please take a position - do you advocate that there are Absolute standards in the Good Evil debate. Bring it on - your opinion matters.
thasis 06-28-04, 10:45 PM	You want an example of absouloute evil... Well I can give you some truly bad ones but then my board would get sent to BoVD (actualy it might get kicked off. I was prettisipating in a Post that nearly got kicked of the BoVD because it was so bad. I didn't think it was that bad but I'm a sick freak so don't lison to me). But I will try some of my lighter ones. How about taking a your own family and killing them all (including you mentally challanged sister) by beeting them to death with a baseball bat just for the sake of getting the insurance policy (this actualy happened in real life. It was on the news. The little buggers who killed there own family are now in prison for life). I think that is truly no fuzzy line gray area evil. And for good... well... can't think of anything being a sick evil perve and all. But maybe your right. Maybe the fuzzy lines are to be disscused in the Good and Evil boards. If you do though please keep the realy fuzzy stuff to the neutrul board.
Tenzhi 06-28-04, 11:04 PM	Sil - if there are "shades" of grey, absolutes have to exist in order to justify them. So, if you insist that there are shades of grey, you are inherently conceding the existence of absolutes.
Silmarien Aldalome 06-29-04, 03:24 AM	OK - now we're getting somewhere. first off - let's keep it civil and don't cross the line with this one. Thanx Thasis - good point (pardon the pun). Thanx also Tenzhi - both your comments are very compelling. Now - make no mistake: Thasis - those examples are nigh to the extremes of "evil" that we may find in the world. Clearly - they are of those things that speak to one end of a "polarity". The evil end. Does that make them "absolute" examples - well - I don't think so. But - does it matter? Because - we all agree that they're pretty foul. Now - can we move it into the "good" end - who has some examples of "Absolute" goodness? Then - let's map out where that goes.
anglar 06-29-04, 03:31 AM	Absolute goodness - IMO, helping others to the detriment of yourself without thought. Dying to save someone you don't even know. Dedicating your life to feeding the hungry, healing the sick, clothing the naked. Going out of your way to try to make people feel better about themselves. Grey areas. Of course there are grey areas. So much of what is good or evil is up to the interpretation of others. How many people fighting in a war think they are doing evil, no matter which side they are on?
De Batavier 06-29-04, 07:36 AM	I think that there is absolute good and evil, but at the same time it is very difficult to determine these absolutes. Human sacrifice was in some (ancient) cultures not something evil. In some maybe even seen as the ultimate self-sacrifice for the greater good of the community or at least for the greater good in the not so voluntary cases, but to day most cultures think human sacrifice is evil. So the closest we come to something absolute is all agreeing it is good, evil or neutral. So in this sense i think animals are an absolute for neutral. Though i swear sometimes i think the cat is daring me by braking the rules, which she quite well knows. The parrot did the same. ;) So maybe they are all chaotic-neutral... Probably getting more difficult to say an animal is true neutral the more intelligent it is. Maybe a chimps in a group can be described as lawful-neutral Or maybe i'am just watching to much animal and discovery channel shows. :D
Tenzhi 06-29-04, 09:42 AM	That's an interesting notion, and I think you're right. While animals may not have any sort of moral grounding, Lawful vs. Chaotic is more of a behavioral attitude kind of thing which any animal capable of socializing might display.
De Batavier 06-29-04, 09:52 AM	Yes, i have also been thinking about hive insects. Are they more lawful neutral then true neutral, or is it just a kind of programming. When do creatures shift from true neutral to either lawful or chaotic neutral?
Tenzhi 06-29-04, 09:54 AM	Originally posted by De Batavier Yes, i have also been thinking about hive insects. Are they more lawful neutral then true neutral, or is it just a kind of programming. When do creatures shift from true neutral to either lawful or chaotic neutral? Modrons - who reside on Mechanus, the Lawful Neutral outer plane - are Lawful Neutral due to a kind of programming. Indeed, one could say the same about most creatures with "always" in their alignment description.
De Batavier 06-29-04, 10:01 AM	So animals are neutral, but not necessarily true neutral. Their own programming allows for shifst. A hive creature would be very lawful due to some bio-programming. The more intelligent animals also show certain tendencies. I would call house cats chaotic, while dogs seem more lawful.
Tenzhi 06-29-04, 10:17 AM	Originally posted by De Batavier I would call house cats chaotic, while dogs seem more lawful. And most herd-animals might be considered Lawful. Squirrels would, IMO, be chaotic. So, an Axiomatic small dagger might be dubbed "Squirrelslayer." :D
De Batavier 06-29-04, 10:24 AM	:heehee
Ouroboros 06-29-04, 12:27 PM	Not al animals should be natural chimps could be good or evil (On tv a chimp murdered his little brother to get to the mother milk and he was clearly to old for it) And i sure the evil ape would have been cast out if the group leader gath him in the deed
De Batavier 06-29-04, 12:48 PM	Good point. So animals that are capable of emotions can also shift from neutral to good and evil. Problem is with animals where the line is. You could see the act of the chimp as extremely selfish, but to call it evil he must have been aware of what he was doing and it's consequences. Did he want to kill his brother, or just prevend him from getting to the milk before him.
Ouroboros 06-29-04, 02:07 PM	He was a older brother so his mother didn't let him drink because he could eat solid food already I don't rember how he kiled his little brother but after that he confroted his mother (that was in a dip after seeing his son death) And he replaced himself with his little broter and began to drink the mother milk (apes are more human then we think the cimp was choatic evil in my book) This deed shocked my sister so chimps are after bugs her least favored animals now :( Not that I like chimps
De Batavier 06-29-04, 02:56 PM	Yes chimps can be cruel and your example does sound as an evil chimp.
thasis 06-29-04, 03:22 PM	How about dinasours. What are they. They kill humans in the D&D world but only for food and/or protection.
Silmarien Aldalome 06-29-04, 06:09 PM	Originally posted by anglar Absolute goodness - IMO, helping others to the detriment of yourself without thought. Dying to save someone you don't even know. Dedicating your life to feeding the hungry, healing the sick, clothing the naked. Going out of your way to try to make people feel better about themselves. Self-sacrifice as a trait of good leanings - dedicating one's life to service of others. Bestowing empathy. Gift-giving, humility, compassion, restraint without self-mutilation. Am I sounding a ascetic here? But - if the person dies - they aren't able to continue their work. How is this good? Grey areas. Of course there are grey areas. So much of what is good or evil is up to the interpretation of others. How many people fighting in a war think they are doing evil, no matter which side they are on? Yes - I'd have to agree with this. If I overlay it onto the posts downstream: Neutrality as a behavioral attitude (the cat example). Lawful Netrality auto-programming (the beehive example). Lawful/Chaotic Evil leanings The Evil Ape example. Someone also touched on a kind of "Natural Justice" (to expel a member from the Herd if they harm another member). Is this act good, neutral, or evil? What about "an eye for an eye?" where does this sit? I reckon (pronounced Aye rekkon - from the Downunder Multiverse *smiles*) that "good, evil, neutrality" are concepts/constructions of thought. I don't see the beehive as "lawful" - it has a natural order perhaps - but is this order distinct to that of, say, the Orangutang - who can't stand others, is very territorial, and will live a solitary life, except during mating season. Is the "order" of the hive different to the "overall order" of nature that includes the squirral, the cat (oo yes - cats know what they are doing *chuckles*). Cats have servants Dogs have masters stav
De Batavier 06-30-04, 01:02 PM	Self-sacrifice in the name of good a not so good deed? You're correct that it would be a waste if a good person can't continue his good work, but making his death mean something does make it a good act. If good people wouldn't put themselfs in harmsway, because they risk dying and then can't do good, would mean a lot less good in the world, IMO. I agree that the hive example differs from the herd. How aware must a creature be of his acts before it affect his alignment. If the hive consisted of highly intelligent creatures, we would call them lawfull, i think. But bees, as far as we can tell, just seem to follow some geneticprogram. So are they not lawful because of a lack of awareness? Does awareness matter? :cool:
m_man96 06-30-04, 01:22 PM	This is how good and evil are in my book. GOOD: I believe that the foremost example of a good act was all the volunteers going to Hallum (is that how that's spelled), Nebraska after the tornado hit to help out. I also believe that a good act has to constitute three parts: 1. The compassion to help others. 2. The choice to help others. 3. Not wanting anything in return for the act. NEUTRAL: The foremost example of a neutral act is a bargain, such as: Person 1 wants something that Person 2 has, while Person 2 wants something that Person 1 has. They agree to exchange the two items or whatnot. Thus, no helping or harming, since the act of giving is balanced out by the wanting of something in return. EVIL: I describe evil as the darkness that blights most of the modern world today. Mostly, this is because of greed in business and all that. But, occasionally, there is something else. Like the child pornographer taking advantage of children in order to satisfy some gross, perverted, SICK desire. (Trust me, that actually happened in a little town about a couple hours south from Omaha. :mad: ) Evil I define as selfishness to such a degree that the selfish person feels a need to harm others.
De Batavier 06-30-04, 01:27 PM	Yes that's sick. Preying on the helpless is evil, for a intelligent human being for an animal it is survival. Interesting example compairing to bargaining. It indeed sounds neutral. :cool:
m_man96 06-30-04, 01:34 PM	Anyone else have anything to say about my views? Keep 'em comin'. :D
Silmarien Aldalome 06-30-04, 06:08 PM	Originally posted by m_man96 Anyone else have anything to say about my views? Keep 'em comin'. :D Hi there m_man96. OK - the stuff about evil - distilling it: - freedom at others' expence - commiting harm - any exploitation of vulnerability/the vulnerable. This includes coercion (in all its forms - contrast the evil Wizard who uses Enchantment spells to make slaves comply, to Evil traders of Tempus - who trade slaves of all kinds - from children thru to adults). Add in manipulation of the covert and dark kind (e.g. the Vampire's fusion of lust and seduction that causes enslavement), threat (against the weak), bullying (against the weak), excessive greed (c.f. normal small amounts - i.e. hunger). Quite a strip-list of horrors. Yes - you're right where you cast evil partly as sickness too. Because we're at the Guild of Neutrality - I add that that the above list falls on a continuum. Contrast petty theft of a loaf of bread to bodily harm of another. Now - to the Lighter Side Not wanting anything in return for the act Is there truly such a thing? Has anyone heard of "ethical hedonism" - which says that even when one trundles off to "do good" without any rewards - that the reward is feeling good, feeling humble, feeling uplifted. I.e. - "healthy" and "ethical" rewards. Take for example, the neighbour who bakes a cake for a friend. He leaves the cake on the doorstep with no note to say who it came from. But - the Giver knows that the Receiver will be touched. And the Giver thus, is rewarded - at the more "human" level. I also believe that such deeds fall on a continuum. And that "acts of good" vary by degree. But - it's almost impossible to rank them. That's because of two things: 1. It's partly subjective. What one things is good, another may not fully agree about. 2. Moral systems are partly a function of cultural values. Cultures don't always agree on what is "good" and "evil". and Sometimes "good intentions" cause harm. What about that last one? stav
De Batavier 07-01-04, 07:04 AM	An interesting notion. Do all deeds have a "hidden" agenda. Is good done to recieve praise, to become worshipped as a hero or to just feel good? People doing evil fill a need in themselfs, but people doing good also fill an inner need. Would neutral be the absence of a "need to do" and just doing. So good i want to help people, evil i want to hurt people, and neutral i just do my thing don't care (or thought about) if it hurts or helps people it's alle the same to me.
m_man96 07-01-04, 10:10 AM	I still stand by what I said before. I believe good acts are done out of compassion, not out of wanting to feel good or anything like that. Besides, as I stated before, wanting something in return contradicts the nature of a good act! Allow me to elaborate on evil for a bit. I still think the foremost kind of evil in the world today is greed. Greed drives people to do some pretty nasty things out of wanting more than they have. For example, a greedy merchant in the D&D world and a greedy businessman in today's world. They both do some really bad things to get what they want (i.e. extortion, blackmail, kidnapping, murder).
De Batavier 07-01-04, 05:55 PM	It is not necessarly getting something from the persons you help, but getting an inner gratification for helping. More like a runner (or other atlethes) who gets endorphines in his system. It's not the goal of sporting, but a nice side effect. Doing good has also some sort of gratification for the good-doer. He will feel glad, he could help. Greed in it self isn't evil, the things you mention like extortion, blackmail etc probably are in most cases. Ofcourse greed is one of the 7. Wanting more isn't evil. Wanting more by brokering a deal that is good for you, but not so good for another maybe. Forcing someone to give you what you want, while you have no legitemate right, is evil.
thasis 07-02-04, 03:48 PM	Like I said would dinasaurs be true neutrul. Thats what I think.
m_man96 07-02-04, 04:02 PM	Originally posted by thasis Like I said would dinasaurs be true neutrul. Thats what I think. As someone else said a lot of posts ago, it depends on whether or not the animal is intelligent enough to recognize what's it doing besides acting on natural instinct.
De Batavier 07-02-04, 04:04 PM	I think it depends on the dinosaur in question. They probably were as intelligent, if not more, as the cat and dog a few posts up. Then it is quite possible that they would be chaotic or lawful neutral. Also on some level, chimps were the example, animals could even shift on the moral axis of towards good or evil. So it depends on how intelligent dinosaurs were and if they were capable of emotions, i think. But IIRC the rulebooks say animals and dinosaurs = true neutral, i just don't agree with them ;) :cool:
Silmarien Aldalome 07-03-04, 12:19 AM	Originally posted by De Batavier An interesting notion. Do all deeds have a "hidden" agenda. Is good done to recieve praise, to become worshipped as a hero or to just feel good? People doing evil fill a need in themselfs, but people doing good also fill an inner need. Would neutral be the absence of a "need to do" and just doing. So good i want to help people, evil i want to hurt people, and neutral i just do my thing don't care (or thought about) if it hurts or helps people it's alle the same to me. You guyz are onto it - and have commented on both sides of the "ethical hedonism" debate. Some people reckon that compassion is steeped in personal gratification, some don't. I think there's a survival element to it. The herd that feels for oneanother protects itself from harm. So - empathy procures survival chances. I don't think giving is necessarily about a hidden agenda. The agenda is transparent where the wish for benefit to the other is the core motivation. Anything secondary that one gets in return - gratification and easy-resting conscience - are nice extras. The thing is - I reckon it becomes less "good" and more "evil" when the giving is done only for self-serving ends. That's then manipulation (covert) - but only if you're tricking someone. I also agree with the posters who recognise that morality is a product of awareness. I don't think a lion has pangs of conscience for feeding its belly. But - who knows. But what do you do when you have two divergent moral systems converging (i.e. two cultures with different ideas about right and wrong). How do you sort all that out. regards stav
Tenzhi 07-03-04, 12:52 AM	Originally posted by Silmarien Aldalome I also agree with the posters who recognise that morality is a product of awareness. I don't think a lion has pangs of conscience for feeding its belly. But - who knows. If a walrus can weep for oysters... But then again, an Elf-Bane doesn't have pangs of conscience for feeding His belly. Nor does Galactus (who would also be Neutral).
De Batavier 07-03-04, 08:58 AM	I agree a that animals must have more awareness of their actions and their implications before shifting on the good-evil axis. Colliding moralities. I think the most interesting would be what things the two different cultures do still have in common. Would that be universal notions of morality. I think most cultures agree on a lot of things that are good or bad behavior, stealing, killing, etc. etc. I think the differences are in the details, not in the grand picture of things.
thasis 07-03-04, 04:10 PM	Kinnda of topic but lets say a guy is on a genocidal mission to kill all bugbearers, would that make him evil?
Ouroboros 07-04-04, 01:07 AM	Yes it would meen it kills bugbear kids aswell
Tenzhi 07-04-04, 01:37 AM	Of course... if, by chance, the "guy" in question knew that bugbears (or an even bigger menace, such as elves) as a race were going to be responsible for great disaster in the future then it would be wrong for him to not prevent the disaster if it were within his power.
De Batavier 07-04-04, 08:09 AM	Hmm...let me think. You kill every single member of a specific species. That doesn't make you evil, just human... But seriously, why is he on that mission? Or in other words, is someone who commits horrific acts under the influence of a mental conditions (not inflicted on himself by substance abuse) evil? His acts are "evil," maybe even his thoughts might be evil, but the sichness is the core of it all. Ofcourse such a person can't be classified as good. But does the sickness give him an acual moral choice. Or is he as an animal just victim of his own biology. Kill to (mentaly) survive.
Silmarien Aldalome 07-04-04, 09:01 PM	Hi there everyone. Of course... if, by chance, the "guy" in question knew that bugbears (or an even bigger menace, such as elves) as a race were going to be responsible for great disaster in the future then it would be wrong for him to not prevent the disaster if it were within his power :rofl: (to the bold) is anyone wise and foresighted enough to know the better course? It was pity that stayed Bilbo's hand - and so caused Gollum to be caught by the Barad Dur eventually - which lead to Ring Wraiths in the Shire. But - Gollum saved the world from an unimaginable ruin in the end. But it's Stale Lembas from loss of the Elves that is an evil far worse than anything. stav
Tenzhi 07-05-04, 12:16 AM	Originally posted by Silmarien Aldalome is anyone wise and foresighted enough to know the better course? Perhaps not - but we must attempt the course we think is right (even if Silmwise the Great Elven Warrior doesn't think it's right at the time. ;) ).
thasis 09-19-04, 11:33 PM	Ah... I see you are neer death. Time to bring you back. (Uses Bump spell) :bump: . Now people. Lets start up a new topic. New members being accepted all the time by the way. People please help me restart this and the other alignment threads.
thasis 10-10-04, 12:16 PM	Us people of neutrul must rally are might and make sure neither the good nor the evil ultimitly win. We want a balance of alignments. Let us rally are spies and assassins and prepare to keep this war on with no winner.
Shard of Suzail 11-03-04, 06:42 PM	I`m often speaking on threads regarding issues of true neutral characters. I play a neutral death cleric myself, so i get tired of all that "necromancy is for evil pc`s" rubbish. The neutral cleric should get much better treatment. I wish we got our own version of the rebuke/turn thing and divine spell channeling, not to mention the smite powers of prc`s that make us choose "an opposed alignment" for infidels. The game seems to assume that all neutral people and gods are actually good or evil, but not admitting it. Neutrality needs a serious look at.
thasis 11-03-04, 07:49 PM	I quite agree. On the Necromancy thing, I agree with you. As a Necromancer I sugest you go to my Necromancy Guild I started (see my sig) and/or the Risen Dead Foundation.
thasis 01-25-05, 09:55 AM	When the tall tower finishes rising a tall mysterios gray skinned Pit Fiend walks out. "I am the Thasis of Neutrality. Unlike my brothers I wish to keep peace with the alignments. I'm one for balance. I have decided to return now that something has tooken to my intrest. My stay could be long, it could be short. It all depends on how long my buisness takes and how people take to the reopening of this guild".
jagggar 01-25-05, 12:16 PM	A tear appears in the fabric of space within the welcoming halls of the Guild of Neutrality. From it steps forth what seems to be a suit of platemail, a little on the small side, with "shape", and seemingly styled after gothic armors. It pauses for a few moments, stunned, before turning its head towards Thasis. "Tell me creature, where is my place? I come from a place where we speak of Good and Evil, yet few believe they actually exist; they would rather place their loyalties elsewhere. Test me so that I may know my place." As the being stretches, the sound of joints popping is heard. So, be there Chaotic and Lawful guilds? I can see this character as being anywhere from Chaotic Neutral to Lawful Evil depending on the overal situation. Not looking to be sent to an online alignment quiz though.
thasis 01-25-05, 07:07 PM	Hmmm... I don't think Law and Chaos guild would be appropiate. I only did the core alignments that found the cosmo's. This guild here is for people who are Chaotic Neutrul, True Neutrul, and Lawful Neutrul. For people who commit more acts good or evil then the other then the other go to one of my other alignment guilds. This guild is for people who want to keep balance in the alignments or who just havn't realy made any actions one way or another.
jagggar 01-25-05, 07:16 PM	Cool. Any people got thoughts of questions for helping me decide on alignment? Hey, that makes me realize. . . We're gunna need alignment definitions that the GMs will be using so we don't end up with huge "But I'm ______!" "No, you're most obviously ______." arguements.
thasis 01-25-05, 07:21 PM	I'll wright up a thing on alignment. I'm always up for something on alignment. I love alignment disscusions (hence my succesful alignment guilds).
Kingside_Bishop 01-25-05, 08:39 PM	The Words of Grai Vaugn, to an initiateObserve the Leaf, young initiate... it springs forth from the Tree that gives it Birth, with a zest for life most evident. For a short period, it lives carefree -- absorbing energy from those around itself that are willing to sustain it: the Sun, the Earth, the Wind, and the Water. Little does it understand the world around it, or the role it is intended to fill... The Sun finally scorches the Leaf, but this experience is an enlightenment. The Leaf now realizes that it must release itself from the bonds that have held it, and surrender to the forces that that have sustained it until now, or perish -- a dry, empty husk. The Leaf floats on the Wind, which now gives it life as well as purpose. Eventually, it settles to the Earth, where it joins with the Water to nourish the next generation of leaves... and all other leaves to come. For the Leaf realizes now that it will never die so long as it is part of this cycle -- for it will live through all those to come... just as through it, all those before the Leaf have lived. And so the cycle continues, young initiate... the Elements give birth to the Children, who then nurture the Elements, and eachother; it is an ongoing cycle of Birth, Life, Death, and Rebirth. Some deny this, but it is only those that have not yet Died and been Reborn that do so... One day you will Die, and we will all look to your Rebirth, as my Rebirth was looked to, as was my master's, and so on since the beginning of Time...I've always liked the idea of balance... I'd like to join this guild. Is it going to be partaking in the Guild Wars, Thasis? If so (and we're allowed multiple characters)... I'll be playing Grai Vaugn, the Taoist Monk -- a True Lawful Human Monk 2 / Fighter 2 / Rogue 1 / Chameleon 10 with feats such as Karmic Strike and Defensive Throw -- I'll be able to kung-fu you if you hit me or not... Go ahead, attack me! If we go into the Guild Wars, what's our agenda going to be? Maintain the balance? That'd be cool. 'Course, that's coming from the perspective of my character. Thanks.
Lady Rolindin 01-25-05, 08:46 PM	my charater triskar is neutral good, to me it means he has tendases for the good. a way I think of the aligments is, they way your raised and the sicitey you come from, what are the values you learned from your socitey. say a red wizard and a dwarf red wizard can be netral evil to lawful evil or some even good aligemnts. this is because the red wizard believe in slavers and torture, if a charter is born into the system and the slave escape's they will hate slavery, if on the other hand your born into a fasmily that is powerful and thinks nothing of torturing slave and punshing them then they have their beliefs system that tells them that slavery is good. and that all slaves are to be used and mocked, and abused. They see nothing wrong with their actions, if they were caught and became a slave they might change their mind. dwarfs on the other hand are taught to believe that all gaints, orc's, and the rest are to be hated, never trust them. they will kill you on sight, they will make you slaves and you will be their next meal. I can see why the dwarfs hate the orc's and more. If your brought up to believe that all orc's are evil and only want to steal every thing you own or eat you, then you build haterd for them. If on the other hand the orc's tribes anfd the dwarfs work together and build and work together then things will change. I don't see that happening too soon. the races don't trust each other, too long a history of mistrust. the same for the red wizards, and the rest of Faerun. the red wizards are the slavers of the forgotten realms and hunt down everybody to make them slaves. not true, but they are brought up to believe this, and worse that the red wizards only like to kill and use you for experemnets, not all of them. it's the way they are raised, coming from a free famiy or a slave family.
Demonfey 01-25-05, 08:59 PM	Do we get to blow random stuff to bits here?
jagggar 01-25-05, 09:14 PM	Good question. . . All the neutrality types. . . Who's will win out?
Kingside_Bishop 01-25-05, 09:20 PM	if on the other hand your born into a fasmily that is powerful and thinks nothing of torturing slave and punshing them then they have their beliefs system that tells them that slavery is good. and that all slaves are to be used and mocked, and abused.This is off topic, but I couldn't help it (me being a History/Sociology/Political Science major, and all)... that's only American slavery towards those of African descent. That is, American slavery was absolutely unique. No other form of slavery denigrated the slave so much as American slavery. In other forms, The slave kept his human status (and thus many rights). The slave's children weren't considered slaves. Slave status wasn't based on race or ethnicity.This contrasts significantly with American slavery. Another little known fact: America was the last modern nation to outlaw slavery (and in fact, it lingered in one form or another almost a century after it was declared illegal), and was the only modern nation that had to do so with a war.
Lady Rolindin 01-25-05, 09:36 PM	this is because slavery is a system issue that effects the person in the system. this can make one neutral evil to lawful good. the slave that escaped would be lawful good killing all slaver they meet, a red wizard would be neutral evil or worse, think slavery is alright and they have the right to keep slaves. and if one is talented enough then when they decide the slave can gain their freedom and only then. to me the red wizards are based off the amreican slavery issue with a roman slavery system mixed. the romans were bad too, you should read the books about the roman slave farms. here's the way they worked, conquered areas would have the poele would become slaves, the women were used all the ay to the farm. the women had to have 2 to 4 children before they were sold at a slave acution. the males were treaded some what better, they became the guards of of the slave farms,(they were allowed to use the women slaves, brothers did have sex with their sisters, and mothers, they had more rights than women) and after they became of age they had to join the army and after some army years of army service they could become free. the women had little choice, she could go work in a brothel and save her money and buy her freedom or hope that your master gave your freedom some day. the women had to have children before they were sold off to the rich houses, bad romans.
jagggar 01-25-05, 09:50 PM	I'm not so sure about that slave that escaped and now kills every slaver he comes across being Lawful Good. I'd say he'd fall under a neutral alignment. I'd say a Lawful Good character who has qualms with slavery and lives in a region where slavery is accepted would treat any slaves he might own very well, do what he could to make sure other slave owners treated their slaves well, and would use political channels to improve conditions for slaves and eventually end slavery. A Lawful Good character who lives in a region where slavery isn't accepted and is doing what he can to keep slavery from expanding into his lands would probably catch the slaver and give him a chance to turn around and go home and to not come back. A Chaotic Good character who lives in either would probably hunt out slave traders and take their slaves and free them. Possibly a harder thing to do in a place where notes of freedom are required. I'd say a character who hunts down slave traders and kills them no questions asked would probably fall under the banner of neutrality.
Kingside_Bishop 01-25-05, 09:52 PM	to me the red wizards are based off the amreican slavery issue with a roman slavery system mixed. the romans were bad too, you should read the books about the roman slave farms. here's the way they worked, conquered areas would have the poele would become slaves, the women were used all the ay to the farm. the women had to have 2 to 4 children before they were sold at a slave acution. the males were treaded some what better, they became the guards of of the slave farms,(they were allowed to use the women slaves, brothers did have sex with their sisters, and mothers, they had more rights than women) and after they became of age they had to join the army and after some army years of army service they could become free. the women had little choice, she could go work in a brothel and save her money and buy her freedom or hope that your master gave your freedom some day. the women had to have children before they were sold off to the rich houses, bad romans.So, let's review the male/female inequalities that you present: Males Treated with more respect. Can serve in what is considered a more respected position. Can escape slavery, with work and merit.Females Treated with less respect. Can serve only in hard labor professions that aren't considered honorable. Can't escape slavery.You're right -- conditions for the men are alright, but conditions for the women are absolutely terrible. However, this is a trait that we see throughout Roman society. The inequality of women in the area of slavery is just where Gender Inequalities meets Slavery. We can also see this in other areas, such as the institutions of politics, the military, education, justice, etc. On the alignment definitions, I don't think that's a good idea. I think we can all agree that alignment is totally subjective. Just because most of us on the boards consider slavery evil doesn't mean that slavery seems evil to everyone. Jagger's examples, above, are very helpful for demonstrating this -- and exemplifies why defining alignment is so difficult.
jagggar 01-25-05, 10:07 PM	I think we can all agree that alignment is totally subjective. Just because most of us on the boards consider slavery evil doesn't mean that slavery seems evil to everyone. Jagger's examples, above, are very helpful for demonstrating this -- and exemplifies why defining alignment is so difficult. I disagree, both with the points that alignment is totally subjective and that slavery is evil. If Alignment was subjective, it'd be Allegiance. I don't consider slavery good, however, I don't consider it automatically evil. Just because most examples we're familiar with are ****-poor examples of slavery, doesn't mean that in a fantasy world that slavery can't be a non-evil thing.
Lady Rolindin 01-25-05, 10:26 PM	they vary from culture to culture, take the elves they have a form of slavery in some socities. the elf gets in debt or the father gets in debt, then he will send his son or daughter to work for that family for some many years and they get treaded good by the elves. a nice place to rest your head, good food every day, your not beaten. my exsampls of slavery is that it is a culture based idealogily that is judged good or bad by other socites. the red wizards are judge bad for their treatment of their slaves, while the elves are considered a good form of salvery. its a culture belief system that one is raised by and that can be changed, by exposing your self to other cultires. if a red wizard was to live with the evil ones as they believe, say in Wateredep. the charater if they stayed long enough could changed thier view and look at the red wizard slave system differently. they might even feel bad for some of the slaves and try to help some of them. it depends on you point of view and how your raised. the romans did have a bad system of slavery for any slave man or women. being sold to a gladator school ,not good to one's health.
Kingside_Bishop 01-25-05, 10:28 PM	I disagree, both with the points that alignment is totally subjective and that slavery is evil. If Alignment was subjective, it'd be Allegiance. I don't consider slavery good, however, I don't consider it automatically evil. Just because most examples we're familiar with are ****-poor examples of slavery, doesn't mean that in a fantasy world that slavery can't be a non-evil thing.Then let's play a game, just for fun (no sarcasm: just because I think that it would be entertaining and purposeful -- everything I look for in life). You give me a situation that you think is inherently evil, that there is now way you think it could be good, and I will try to come up with a way to prove that through the right eyes, and under the right conditions, it could be good. No prizes, just an exercise in morality. It's what my sig is all about.
jagggar 01-25-05, 10:33 PM	Are we allowed to talk about violent rape outside of the Mature boards? Though in a way, wouldn't you still not be able to prove that Alignment is realitive, only that if Alignment is realitive that anything can be considered good?
Kingside_Bishop 01-25-05, 10:51 PM	Are we allowed to talk about violent rape outside of the Mature boards?I really doubt it. We could go to the Mature Boards for this, and provide a link for those interested.
jagggar 01-25-05, 10:58 PM	*shrugs* That or PMs. Either works for me I guess. I assume you already have a situation in mind? Oh, and did you see my edit on my last post?
Kingside_Bishop 01-25-05, 11:07 PM	*shrugs* That or PMs. Either works for me I guess. I assume you already have a situation in mind?Yes, I've thought up a situation in which violent rape could be viewed as good. And yes, PMs would work, too. Which would you prefer? Oh, and did you see my edit on my last post?Not until just now. Thanks. Here's my response:Though in a way, wouldn't you still not be able to prove that Alignment is realitive, only that if Alignment is realitive that anything can be considered good?Relative: A thing having a relation to or a dependence on another thing. Not absolute or independent.I believe that I could prove alignment (good, evil, lawful, or chaotic) to depend on perspective, that any action could be seen as good, evil, lawful or chaotic depending on the perspective from which the action is viewed.
jagggar 01-25-05, 11:21 PM	Note to self: Learn to spell. Okay, my brain can tell there's something wrong with the way this setup is happening. My brain is to operate that Alignment is absolute. You are saying that Alignment is relative. You will be providing a case in which "Event X" (Heh, hmm. . . Maybe if we. . . Dang discrete math. . .) can be Good. Is Event X supposed to be proved possibly good within an absolute Alignment system? Sorta lost, sorta not here. I am curious as to what situation you have come up with, though I'm thinking using individual cases may not be the proper way to do relative vs. absolute. Umm, PM it for now.
Tenzhi 01-26-05, 12:30 AM	I believe that I could prove alignment (good, evil, lawful, or chaotic) to depend on perspective, that any action could be seen as good, evil, lawful or chaotic depending on the perspective from which the action is viewed. 2+2 might equal 5 depending on the viewer, but that doesn't make that view correct. In D&D, alignment is an absolute defined by the views of the DM. Carrying that to the real world, if there is an absolute Good and Evil it is defined by whatever defines the nature of the Universe - and we may not be privvy to all the particulars and therefore have to guess as best we can. This guesswork may make morality seem subjective, but such seeming is tainted by our personal wants and needs and therefore cannot be trusted as being absolutely correct.
Kingside_Bishop 01-26-05, 12:58 AM	In this kind of discussion, I think it is important to remain mature and friendly. So, please take all of my points in the best possible light. In no instance am I insulting anyone, or speaking in any kind of emotionally negative voice. This is a fundamental weakness of this form of communication (text) -- I cannot relay emotion very well. But rest assured, I find this discussion pleasant, and mean all remarks in a good, constructive light. 2+2 might equal 5 depending on the viewer, but that doesn't make that view correct.Not correct from our perspective, but it may be correct from the perspective of the person viewing it. I don't feel that mathematics is a good tool to use in this discussion -- mathematics implies a universal system that is true for everyone, which is not the case for alignment. In D&D, alignment is an absolute defined by the views of the DM.I believe this to be a fundamental problem with the D&D alignment system -- and why I throw it out the window. I don't require my players to choose an alignment. Carrying that to the real worldI don't believe that the D&D alignment system represents "alignment" very well, and I don't believe that it should be carried to the real world. if there is an absolute Good and Evil it is defined by whatever defines the nature of the Universe - and we may not be privvy to all the particularsThis implies the existence of a greater force that defines good and evil. I do not agree with this perspective. and therefore have to guess as best we can.On this, I agree with you wholeheartedly. It is our responsibility to "guess as best we can" what is good and evil... This guesswork may make morality seem subjective, but such seeming is tainted by our personal wants and needs and therefore cannot be trusted as being absolutely correct.This is based on the assumption that we, as humans, are fundamentally unable to remove this taint of out wants and needs. I do not accept this premise. I believe that I am able to take actions and establish my own perspective without resorting to my own wants and needs.
Tenzhi 01-26-05, 01:22 AM	Not correct from our perspective, but it may be correct from the perspective of the person viewing it. I don't feel that mathematics is a good tool to use in this discussion -- mathematics implies a universal system that is true for everyone, which is not the case for alignment. Mathematics is based on faith and assumptions and relies on the views of its own paradigm to prove itself. But that's another argument, albeit slightly related in nature to this one. I believe this to be a fundamental problem with the D&D alignment system -- and why I throw it out the window. I don't require my players to choose an alignment. Either way you are forcing your belief in regards to alignment onto your players, though your way admittedly allows you to wash your hands of a great deal of responsibility. ;) I don't believe that the D&D alignment system represents "alignment" very well, and I don't believe that it should be carried to the real world. This implies the existence of a greater force that defines good and evil. I do not agree with this perspective. Fair enough. Have to be careful of the CoC here what with possible religious implications... Suffice to say that even if you worship at the altar of science, the nature of the universe is still defined though mankind is not yet privvy to all of the definition. If Good and Evil exist, then they'll fall somewhere into that definition, and the Universe is a greater force that undeniably (by the paradigm of science, anyway) exists. If Good and Evil don't exist, then discussing real world applications of it is moot. This is based on the assumption that we, as humans, are fundamentally unable to remove this taint of out wants and needs. I do not accept this premise. I believe that I am able to take actions and establish my own perspective without resorting to my own wants and needs. You do not accept the premise because you do not want to. You believe that you are able to act beyond your own wants and needs precisely because you want/need to believe this. The only way to remove such wants and needs is to destroy the ego entirely, which one cannot do and maintain sense of self.
Kingside_Bishop 01-26-05, 01:50 AM	Mathematics is based on faith and assumptions and relies on the views of its own paradigm to prove itself. But that's another argument, albeit slightly related in nature to this one.Agreed. Mathematics, shall we say, is absolute. Either way you are forcing your belief in regards to alignment onto your players,I don't believe that I am. A character can still act "Lawful Good" -- he just needs to define Lawful Good. So, a paladin, for example, would need to inform me of how he intends to interpret his moral code before play begins. If he strays from his self-defined code, he then suffers the consequences of that. though your way admittedly allows you to wash your hands of a great deal of responsibility. ;)Actually, it increases my workload. I've got to listen and understand the alignment issues of my players (which is considerably more challenging than hearing "Neutral Good" and moving on), as well as re-interpret several statisitcal devices (one of which I explained above). Imagine what havoc a simple Detect Evil spell causes! :eek: Fair enough. Have to be careful of the CoC here what with possible religious implications...Indeed... Suffice to say that even if you worship at the altar of science,...now to step on that last "Indeed..." Science and Religion can co-exist within the same belief, but it's all about perspectives, again. But enough. Not the discussion we're trying to have, although it might be later... the nature of the universe is still defined though mankind is not yet privvy to all of the definition.The nature of the universe is defined mathematically -- which we've already agreed is mostly irrelevent to this discussion. If Good and Evil exist, then they'll fall somewhere into that definition, and the Universe is a greater force that undeniably (by the paradigm of science, anyway) exists.That definition is mathematic -- and mathematics don't include a system of "good" and "evil." Therefore, within the paradigm of the universe that is mathematical (or scientific), good and evil do not exist. We impose those values onto the paradigm, and because we impose them they are subject to our own perspectives -- as you have already said. If Good and Evil don't exist, then discussing real world applications of it is moot.It is a moot point, as long as we're working within the mathematical (scientific) model of the universe. It only becomes relevent when we discuss morality -- which is clearly not mathematical or scientific. You do not accept the premise because you do not want to. You believe that you are able to act beyond your own wants and needs precisely because you want/need to believe this. The only way to remove such wants and needs is to destroy the ego entirely, which one cannot do and maintain sense of self. This is a circular argument. Observe: "I believe I can act beyond my own needs and wants." "You cannot." "Why not?" "Because you are incapable of acting beyond your own needs and wants." "Why not?" "Because you cannot." etc.The definition of ego: "The self as distinguished from others." To phrase my belief another way: I believe I am capable of shifting my ego to the ego of another person, and take that person's perceptions, wants, and needs into account, before shifting back to my own ego -- then making decisions taking both my own perceptions, needs, and wants and those of the other individual's into account (in whatever fraction I deem most fit -- i.e. 25% my ego and 75% theirs, or 0% my ego and 100% theirs). We should get Sil in on this... he'd enjoy it, no doubt, at least as much as we are.
jagggar 01-26-05, 01:58 AM	I don't believe that I am. A character can still act "Lawful Good" -- he just needs to define Lawful Good. So, a paladin, for example, would need to inform me of how he intends to interpret his moral code before play begins. If he strays from his self-defined code, he then suffers the consequences of that. Actually, it increases my workload. I've got to listen and understand the alignment issues of my players (which is considerably more challenging than hearing "Neutral Good" and moving on), as well as re-interpret several statisitcal devices (one of which I explained above). Imagine what havoc a simple Detect Evil spell causes! :eek: I'm not that good at imagining. How do you work out smites? (Would've been a question through PM, but came up here nicely.) On the same sort of wavelength, how do you keep someone from choosing "I do whatever I want, whenever I want (unless I happen to fall to an enchantment spell)." as his self-defined code or would you allow that?
Tenzhi 01-26-05, 02:12 AM	Agreed. Mathematics, shall we say, is absolute. Actually, I was saying quite the opposite. So, a paladin, for example, would need to inform me of how he intends to interpret his moral code before play begins. And thus the player's workload is increased due to having your beliefs foisted off onto him. I'm not saying it's better or worse than the alternative, mind, just that the DM's yoke still exists. Actually, it increases my workload. I've got to listen and understand the alignment issues of my players (which is considerably more challenging than hearing "Neutral Good" and moving on), as well as re-interpret several statisitcal devices (one of which I explained above). Imagine what havoc a simple Detect Evil spell causes! :eek: Yar. That's one of the hazards of removing alignment, though one could also extricate alignment-based abilities (a monumental enough effort in itself). ...now to step on that last "Indeed..." Science and Religion can co-exist within the same belief, but it's all about perspectives, again. But enough. Not the discussion we're trying to have, although it might be later... Any two religions can exist side by side with one another, and Science is no exception. ;) This is a circular argument. Observe:[list] "I believe I can act beyond my own needs and wants." It is a circular argument because the statement is paradoxical in nature (and possibly because I'm zen~taoist in nature :P ). A statement of belief requires personal wants and needs to drive it. Even if you tried to sidestep the "I believe" qualifier, when called upon for proof you would continually be forced to reference your own personal beliefs, wants, and needs. To phrase my belief another way: I believe I am capable of shifting my ego to the ego of another person, and take that person's perceptions, wants, and needs into account, before shifting back to my own ego -- then making decisions taking both my own perceptions, needs, and wants and those of the other individual's into account (in whatever fraction I deem most fit -- i.e. 25% my ego and 75% theirs, or 0% my ego and 100% theirs). I would like to believe that being empathetic is one of the nobler (read: Good) qualities of mankind myself. ;) We should get Sil in on this... he'd enjoy it, no doubt, at least as much as we are. It would certainly give him an excuse to spout psychological terms left and right. ;)
jagggar 01-26-05, 09:50 AM	Might I ask what school of mathematics is being refered to? All, some? Specifics? And mathematics will be the reason if I don't reply until tomorrow. I've got my take-home final to complete
Lady Rolindin 01-26-05, 03:05 PM	This is a question that has interrested me for some time about aligement. say Artemis Entrei ,he's the one' who always fought drizzed all the time then after he beat drizzed he was unhapppy a gain. this is the question; do you think that artemis entreri in his choatic evil phases of fighting gors into a kind of crazy evil mode some times and starts to kill for his own reasons. from the bok the return of the arcmages 3 the stories, Artemis entreri stays with some bandits, he dosen't realy like them, but he stay for a few days and helps to rob victums on the road. then something happens and he kills all the bandits in their lair. tracking them down and killing them. in some kind of black out mode is where he mentally goes, drizzed describes it the the ten thousand orc books. when he talks to the female elf helping him. you have to find a place with in your self where your primal instencts take over and you become the hunter. now saying that, do you think that some charaters can go into this mode and are they still choatic evil at that piont? do they change over to a crazy evil kill machine, to me there is a line where a charater is choatic evil crosses some times into a craze evil mode and just kills. do some of you think that an choatic evil or lawful evil crosses into an kind of crazy evil mode and does things that supprises even them selves.
Kingside_Bishop 01-26-05, 05:18 PM	First, I'd like to return to a point we were discussing earlier concerning the defined nature of the universe. the nature of the universe is still defined though mankind is not yet privvy to all of the definition.The nature of the universe is defined mathematically -- which we've already agreed is mostly irrelevent to this discussion. If Good and Evil exist, then they'll fall somewhere into that definition, and the Universe is a greater force that undeniably (by the paradigm of science, anyway) exists.That definition is mathematic -- and mathematics don't include a system of "good" and "evil." Therefore, within the paradigm of the universe that is mathematical (or scientific), good and evil do not exist. We impose those values onto the paradigm, and because we impose them they are subject to our own perspectives -- as you have already said. If Good and Evil don't exist, then discussing real world applications of it is moot.It is a moot point, as long as we're working within the mathematical (scientific) model of the universe. It only becomes relevent when we discuss morality -- which is clearly not mathematical or scientific.Do you have any responses to these statements? Now, on to the discussion at hand... How do you work out smites? (Would've been a question through PM, but came up here nicely.) On the same sort of wavelength, how do you keep someone from choosing "I do whatever I want, whenever I want (unless I happen to fall to an enchantment spell)." as his self-defined code or would you allow that?The player must justify to me why he thinks the foe he is smiting is opposed to his own code of behavior. If his presumptions are false, the smite attempt fails. If his assumptions are correct, it succeeds. I don't play this kind of game with players who would create a "Chaotic Stupid" character (as the "I do what I want" players are sometimes called). I'll DM for them, but will DM in a traditional alignment specific setting... because that imposes the kind of system that such players need. Playing in a game like this (that I like to run) requires a considerable amount of thought and moral maturity. Actually, I was saying quite the opposite.Mathematics is absolute within its own paradigm. Outside of its paradigm, it's almost useless, and therefore shouldn't be a part of this discussion. And thus the player's workload is increased due to having your beliefs foisted off onto him. I'm not saying it's better or worse than the alternative, mind, just that the DM's yoke still exists.My beliefs aren't put onto the player -- the player is free to choose whatever beliefs he wants. If he wants to point at the PHB definition of Lawful Good and say "this is what I am" then I'm OK with that. Now, his statistical interactions with the game world (which is my creation, and thus subject to my beliefs) may or may not accept his beliefs -- which could have statistical ramifications for that character (that would stem from my beliefs)... but it's my game, and I choose to run a game with a greater emphasis on alignment. I believe that a "Lawful Good" paladin should be able to smite another "Lawful Good" paladin if those paladins consider eachother evil. Yar. That's one of the hazards of removing alignment, though one could also extricate alignment-based abilities (a monumental enough effort in itself).A good example of how this can be done is Monte Cook's "Arcana Unearthed" (not to be confused with WotC's "Unearthed Arcana). In it, he does away with the alignment system. Very interesting. Any two religions can exist side by side with one another, and Science is no exception. ;)I question that science is a religion. Religion offers us an explanation for our existence... it answers "why?" Science offers us an explanation of the processes of the universe, and answers the "how?" It is a circular argument because the statement is paradoxical in nature (and possibly because I'm zen~taoist in nature :P ). A statement of belief requires personal wants and needs to drive it. Even if you tried to sidestep the "I believe" qualifier, when called upon for proof you would continually be forced to reference your own personal beliefs, wants, and needs.You know, I think you may be right, Tenzhi... perhaps I am uncapable of excluding my own wants and needs from my actions. Then, allow me to once again redefine my philosophy: I believe that I can place the wants and needs of others into my own wants and needs, and even give them precedence. I would like to believe that being empathetic is one of the nobler (read: Good) qualities of mankind myself. ;)I agree that empathetic though is one of the nobler aspects of humankind. However, whether nobility is "good" or not depends on what perspective you are viewing the noble action from... which defines the action's alignment association as relative or subjective.
thasis 01-26-05, 07:39 PM	This has picked up more activity then usual. Much better then last time. Anyways, yes this guild will be participating in the Guild Wars. Thasis the Neutrul is going to be mercanary. If one side gets a realy big advantage he'll fight with the other team though to keep balance.
Tenzhi 01-27-05, 02:25 AM	First, I'd like to return to a point we were discussing earlier concerning the defined nature of the universe. Do you have any responses to these statements? Those particular statements seemed to have a finality about them that placed them outside the realm of this discussion - other than the last statement which merely reaffirmed that it is a discussion of ethics and morality rather than one of science and mathematics. The player must justify to me why he thinks the foe he is smiting is opposed to his own code of behavior. If his presumptions are false, the smite attempt fails. If his assumptions are correct, it succeeds. I don't play this kind of game with players who would create a "Chaotic Stupid" character (as the "I do what I want" players are sometimes called). I'll DM for them, but will DM in a traditional alignment specific setting... because that imposes the kind of system that such players need. Playing in a game like this (that I like to run) requires a considerable amount of thought and moral maturity. It also requires the ability to more accurately predict the personality of the character one is going to play, and to define morals which may not apply as one previously thought once the game gets going. It would be like you asking me to define my morals for you - somewhere along the line there would always be exceptions to the definition I laid out because in the end I'm human and act as I see best rather than following any set code. Of course, as I said before, having an already defined set of morals doesn't make this sort of situation any better or worse but it certainly saves a step and keeps everyone relatively on the same page. but it's my game, and I choose to run a game with a greater emphasis on alignment. While it certainly gives the players individual philosophical focus, I'd be more inclined to say that your game as described here has less emphasis on alignment. When good isn't necessarily good and evil isn't necessarily evil, then what constitutes Good or Evil (i.e. "alignment") is less important than one's allegiances and goals. And when Good and Evil are devalued in this manner, so is the concept of the Hero (and by association the concept of the Villain). I question that science is a religion. Religion offers us an explanation for our existence... it answers "why?" Science offers us an explanation of the processes of the universe, and answers the "how?" Many religions also delve into the "how" in their own ways. Science just happens to be a religion focussed on the "how" as a means to discovering the "why." Finding purpose is the purpose of human existence. However, whether nobility is "good" or not depends on what perspective you are viewing the noble action from. Only if that perspective is tainted by personal beliefs does a truly "Good" act no longer appear to be good. And ends neither justify means nor condemn them - so even if the results of the act are disastrous they may have been "Good" (and likewise "Evil" acts may have good results). The road to hell is paved with good intentions, but they were still "Good" intentions.
Kingside_Bishop 01-27-05, 10:03 AM	Tenzhi, I agree with almost everything you said. This has been an enjoyable conversation. Thank you for taking part in it with me. Thank you, too, jagggar, and Lady Rolindin.It also requires the ability to more accurately predict the personality of the character one is going to play, and to define morals which may not apply as one previously thought once the game gets going. It would be like you asking me to define my morals for you - somewhere along the line there would always be exceptions to the definition I laid out because in the end I'm human and act as I see best rather than following any set code. Of course, as I said before, having an already defined set of morals doesn't make this sort of situation any better or worse but it certainly saves a step and keeps everyone relatively on the same page. While it certainly gives the players individual philosophical focus, I'd be more inclined to say that your game as described here has less emphasis on alignment. When good isn't necessarily good and evil isn't necessarily evil, then what constitutes Good or Evil (i.e. "alignment") is less important than one's allegiances and goals. And when Good and Evil are devalued in this manner, so is the concept of the Hero (and by association the concept of the Villain).Exactly, which is what I want in the game. I think it's a lot harder to be a hero than D&D presents it. It's also a lot harder to be a villain. Real heroes and villains don't just choose to be good or evil -- which is what I was after. If someone wants to be either in my game, they really have to struggle with the moral impositions that such an attempt has. Many religions also delve into the "how" in their own ways. Science just happens to be a religion focussed on the "how" as a means to discovering the "why." Finding purpose is the purpose of human existence.I'm really not qualified to have this discussion, but here's a quote I picked up somewhere: "Science and religion can never be compared -- for with religion, no proof is ever needed (in fact, the insinuation of proof may be an insult), whereas in science, no amount of proof is ever enough." Only if that perspective is tainted by personal beliefs does a truly "Good" act no longer appear to be good. And ends neither justify means nor condemn them - so even if the results of the act are disastrous they may have been "Good" (and likewise "Evil" acts may have good results). The road to hell is paved with good intentions, but they were still "Good" intentions."Truly Good" implies that what is good is predetermined before any actions were ever taken. I don't believe this to be true. I think that "Truly Good" is defined by each individual in relation to the actions that he takes. We may impose our own value systems on others, and then define their acts as good or evil by our own values, but this does not mean the acts are good or evil -- only good or evil when we apply our value system. There is no universal system that determines if an act is "Truly Good" or "Truly Evil" -- the only system that does that is the value system of the individual or society, imposed on the actions of the self or the actions of others.
Tenzhi 01-28-05, 02:13 AM	Tenzhi, I agree with almost everything you said. This has been an enjoyable conversation. Thank you for taking part in it with me. I nearly always enjoy philosophical discussion. I would like to think it is because I enjoy mulling over other people's views, but I must admit the likelihood that I get a great deal of enjoyment out of espousing my own views as well. It's an unfortunate side effect of being human. Exactly, which is what I want in the game. I think it's a lot harder to be a hero than D&D presents it. It's also a lot harder to be a villain. Real heroes and villains don't just choose to be good or evil -- which is what I was after. If someone wants to be either in my game, they really have to struggle with the moral impositions that such an attempt has. I agree that this seems like a more realistic approach. White Wolf developed their entire game around this sort of approach, though I think they managed to caricaturize it despite themselves. I can't fault you for wanting this out of your games, and I hope you don't think less of me for preferring a more clear-cut superheroic view of Good and Evil. Perhaps such an ideal is a mere fantasy, but then so is the game itself. I'm really not qualified to have this discussion, but here's a quote I picked up somewhere: "Science and religion can never be compared -- for with religion, no proof is ever needed (in fact, the insinuation of proof may be an insult), whereas in science, no amount of proof is ever enough." Proof is a desire of followers. Neither science nor any other religion carry with them their own desires. Science is a religion born of the desire for proof, providing faith for those unable to fill that need with other religious pursuits. But that's just my opinion on the matter, and while it might be an interesting bit of fat to chew in another time and place it probably has no place in this thread or these message boards. "Truly Good" implies that what is good is predetermined before any actions were ever taken. I don't believe this to be true. I think that "Truly Good" is defined by each individual in relation to the actions that he takes. We may impose our own value systems on others, and then define their acts as good or evil by our own values, but this does not mean the acts are good or evil -- only good or evil when we apply our value system. There is no universal system that determines if an act is "Truly Good" or "Truly Evil" -- the only system that does that is the value system of the individual or society, imposed on the actions of the self or the actions of others. Ah, but why do we even have a value system? Why do we attempt to define what is Good and Evil if not because we are attempting to divine the greater, universal meaning of morality? If our definitions of Good and Evil are shots in the dark, just what are we shooting at?
Kingside_Bishop 01-28-05, 10:31 AM	I nearly always enjoy philosophical discussion. I would like to think it is because I enjoy mulling over other people's views, but I must admit the likelihood that I get a great deal of enjoyment out of espousing my own views as well. It's an unfortunate side effect of being human.I think I enjoy both equally. It's in the give and take, the nature of the game, from which I derive enjoyment. Then there's the sense of a civilized community that such discussion breeds -- which is, after all, what we're here for. I agree that this seems like a more realistic approach. White Wolf developed their entire game around this sort of approach, though I think they managed to caricaturize it despite themselves. I can't fault you for wanting this out of your games, and I hope you don't think less of me for preferring a more clear-cut superheroic view of Good and Evil. Perhaps such an ideal is a mere fantasy, but then so is the game itself.How could I think less of you? I've actually played some Malhavoc Press stuff (from Monte Cook) -- I think it falls under the banner of Whitewolf. I liked how they did away with alignment, but didn't like how there were still clear cut juxtopositions. "Light" and "Dark," for example, were basically synonomous with "Good" and "Evil." Proof is a desire of followers. Neither science nor any other religion carry with them their own desires. Science is a religion born of the desire for proof, providing faith for those unable to fill that need with other religious pursuits. But that's just my opinion on the matter, and while it might be an interesting bit of fat to chew in another time and place it probably has no place in this thread or these message boards.I've always thought of faith as the belief in something without physical proof of its accuracy. Having said that, I believe faith is important -- eveyone's got to have it in relation to their own purpose (because eventually we die, and everything we've done falls apart). Ah, but why do we even have a value system? Why do we attempt to define what is Good and Evil if not because we are attempting to divine the greater, universal meaning of morality? If our definitions of Good and Evil are shots in the dark, just what are we shooting at?We must attempt to -- it is our responsibility as morally driven beings. But that doesn't make our definitions correct for everyone, because our definitions cannot be universal (because we are limited beings).
Tenzhi 01-29-05, 12:29 AM	How could I think less of you? I've actually played some Malhavoc Press stuff (from Monte Cook) -- I think it falls under the banner of Whitewolf. I liked how they did away with alignment, but didn't like how there were still clear cut juxtopositions. "Light" and "Dark," for example, were basically synonomous with "Good" and "Evil." I believe that's a compromise between their general outlook and trying to make a D&D game that still feels like a D&D game. I was referring more to their World of Darkness setting where good and evil are highly ambiguous. We must attempt to -- it is our responsibility as morally driven beings. But that doesn't make our definitions correct for everyone, because our definitions cannot be universal (because we are limited beings). I'm not saying that our definitions are correct. What I'm saying is that, because we must attempt the definitions, there must be something there to define.
grimclaw 01-29-05, 01:01 PM	I think that I will join this guild for the wars. My character has gone thru an epiphany concerning alignment. As for the debate on the morality of varius acts. It seems to me that to justify an evil act as good,(or the oppisite),you are mostly just using the results of the act as justification. While an evil act may have good consequences it doesnt change the fact that the act was evil.The plagues of the dark ages for instance were bad but had good results as a by product of making less people available to feed the manual labor requirements of the serf system. An act is evil or good regardless of its consequences.Killing one person to save a thousand is still evil,one must simply be willing to except the stain upon ones soul.That is the true nature of neutrality,one who does what is necassary given the desired results.Good does what is good at the the time,evil does what is most convenient at the time,neutrality takes a long view and accepts the costs of a desired result.Thats my well informed,incredibly intelligent,but undeniably humble opinion. :D
thasis 01-30-05, 12:34 PM	I don't mean to sound like a greedy selfish person, but I am. If the polls turn out that I can only have one character I am going to retire. I will be in the IFGW but only as supporting characters. I will be here for role-playing purposes. I just want to warn you for there seems a high chance that I might have to leave.
jagggar 01-31-05, 09:00 PM	I say you should feel free to be a "greedy selfish person", well, in this case anyway. Currently the poll is 9/8/2/2. I'll be quite sore if that gets translated to one character per player.
Cazic 01-31-05, 09:19 PM	I aswell will not be happy with one PC per user.
jagggar 01-31-05, 11:42 PM	On the same sort of wavelength, how do you keep someone from choosing "I do whatever I want, whenever I want (unless I happen to fall to an enchantment spell)." as his self-defined code or would you allow that? I don't play this kind of game with players who would create a "Chaotic Stupid" character (as the "I do what I want" players are sometimes called). I'll DM for them, but will DM in a traditional alignment specific setting... because that imposes the kind of system that such players need. Playing in a game like this (that I like to run) requires a considerable amount of thought and moral maturity. After some thought, such a statement is really the best way I can think of to explain jagggar's code. I wouldn't consider her "Chaotic Stupid" however, perhaps "Insane Neutral," but not "Chotic Stupid." Could people ask some open-ended (essay?) questions that would help with determining my character's alignment?
Lady Rolindin 02-01-05, 06:01 PM	choatic neutral (stupied), evil, good all have the same thing in common, the charater will be all gung ho towards what ever thier goal is and don't care to whathappens to them.they will sacifice everting to achive that goal, nothing matters, a home, wife, children, the goal must be fulfield no matter what. then in their in between choatic and lawful to me you have crazy, be it evil, good, neutral. the charater will be like the joker in the batman conics, or Artis Empheres in the forgotten realms. I'm not saying that they are stupied, far from it, they are very intelligent and will make short plans and long range plans. short range plans is when Arties Empheres was with the bandit gang, he took a dislike to them right awy and kew he was going to kill all of them. Hwe did just that gained their trust ,then he carrieed out his plan and killed them and hunted down the rest theat eascaped. A crazy evil,good, neutral will make a snap judment and then follow it through, by long or short term plans. they go into a mode of focusing on just what they have to do and keep this mind set till they finish, then come out of it. this makes them dangerous fighters and wizards. their mind is focused on their skills and nothting else, they fight on pure training and instist. we have an crazy evil in the game and she is dangerous, in this way. I'm not going to mention any names, so the chatater is safe and the person who likes to play crazy evil like the joker.m (RH). we have seen the stupied aspect in the last war that was stoped, the charater is so focused on killing a single person it makes them dangerous, and will risk everthing to make this happen, even their own saftie of their own people. what would help to determine your chaterter aligment is how do they view , certain people, do they go into a blide rage and fight on instint, or do they plot and plan to and care what happens to them. are they careless in their actions, or do they make sure that every deatail is followed to the letter and try to stick to a plan of attack if evil say kidnapping, murder, know who you want to kill and still be nice to them and then suprise them by pulling out a gun and shooting them like the joker. or just kill them out right becuase you don't like them right off and do it because it makes you fell better. the joker does this too, you never know what to expect from him. you always have to watch every move he makes and if you are his firend, do you watch him to make sure your not going to be killed by him. but evil never does trust each other they get along, and to kill each other behind their backs. Thier can only be one top dog and evil charaters make sure they are that top dog. good will work together and if they have proublems then they seperate and talk ever so offten in socal settings, and say behind their backs, they din;t like that charater. they won't kill you, they just talk behind your back. good will work together for a purpose and then split again to do thier own thing seprate, then if they get to know each other they could last for a long time or not like an action they did but not kill them they don't like what they did and ask why? this has derailed a few friendships, they respect each other but talk about each other behind thier backs. how does your charter think and react to different sitations is the key to know what aligment they fall in. if you choose one then you have to play that style.
Cazic 02-01-05, 08:33 PM	Ok after reading a lot of what you all have been saying I think I know a way to end this and generalize what you all are saying. In general terms Good is Good, Neutral is Neutral, and Evil is Evil, but on ocations these general terms do not hold. At times good can be evil, evil good, neutral either way, and good and evil can be neutral. NORMALY good, neutral, and evil are very different things, but at times these beliefes can switch. The same goes for honor. There can be the good honor of a Knight, the evil Honor of a Dark Knight, the insain honor of a Paladine gone mad, and the ever changing honor of the common man. These honors, these goods, these neutrals, these evils are all very different, but all share common traits. They are forever changing, will change for eternity,and have, are, and will be switched, reversed, altered, turned inside out, outside in, upside down, rightside up, left, right, and every which way imaginable. Wether you beleive this or not is up to you and beleif in this stament will, just like honor and alinment, forever change. [EDIT] Wait did you all leave the discution about if acts of evil can be described as good? :confused:
redhase 02-02-05, 06:21 PM	go to the forgotten Realms board and open "what is a dm to do', and look up the thread "what Alignement am I?" and "the pc's killed the children" this will help to explain some things about aligment and confuse you also, an person can be good and evil at the same time. for what is evil is different to every charater. so you have to decide that as a charater, even a good aligiment can do things that others see as evil and it's not evil to them. to me the odd abilities also.
jagggar 02-03-05, 10:09 PM	Again I ask, Could I have some situations or questions asked which would help me decide upon an alignment for my character?
Kingside_Bishop 02-04-05, 01:27 AM	Sorry, been gone for a few days, essaying my brains out. Good fun, though, as I love the subject material (International Relations). So, I'm going to jump back into the alignment discussion. I'm not saying that our definitions are correct. What I'm saying is that, because we must attempt the definitions, there must be something there to define.Yes, we're definitely zeroing in on consensus. I agree, there is something there to define -- the actions. But I don't believe there is an overarching alignment system that can be applied to everyone. Instead, we can only apply our own value systems on those actions, which may be fundamentally flawed from another's perspective. As for the debate on the morality of varius acts. It seems to me that to justify an evil act as good,(or the oppisite),you are mostly just using the results of the act as justification. While an evil act may have good consequences it doesnt change the fact that the act was evil.The plagues of the dark ages for instance were bad but had good results as a by product of making less people available to feed the manual labor requirements of the serf system. An act is evil or good regardless of its consequences.Killing one person to save a thousand is still evil,one must simply be willing to except the stain upon ones soul.That is the true nature of neutrality,one who does what is necassary given the desired results.Good does what is good at the the time,evil does what is most convenient at the time,neutrality takes a long view and accepts the costs of a desired result.Thats my well informed,incredibly intelligent,but undeniably humble opinionVery well, then, I'll step outside of the "ends justify the means" argument for a moment. We'll totally disregard the end, for now, and look only at the means -- the actions. With any specific action, I believe that from someone's perspective it could be considered "good." For example, you bring up the Black Plague. Some might consider the death of so many "good" because those individuals were heathens (from their perspective), worshipping a false god, and deserved to perish from this Earth.Subjective: Of, relating to, or arising within one's self or mind in contrast to what is outside.Because the act is "good" from within the mind of the individual performing the act, yet could be considered "evil" from an outside mind, the act is subjective.Relative: Not absolute or independent.Because the alignment of an act is dependent on the perspective from which it is viewed, an act's alignment is relative.Therefore, alignment is both subjective and relative. Lady Rolindin: I disagree with your descriptions of good and evil characters. I believe that good characters are fully capable of fighting eachother, stabbing eachother in the back, etc, so long as they have enough difference in values. Similarly, evil characters are fully able to work together and trust eachother. I don't belive it's characters' alignments that determine if they'll get along or not, it's the amount of moral dissonance that occurs between them. Because alignments are such a poor representation of moral positions, it's difficult to gauge based on alignment alone whether two characters would get along or not. In general terms Good is Good, Neutral is Neutral, and Evil is Evil, but on ocations these general terms do not hold. At times good can be evil, evil good, neutral either way, and good and evil can be neutral. NORMALY good, neutral, and evil are very different things, but at times these beliefes can switch. The same goes for honor. There can be the good honor of a Knight, the evil Honor of a Dark Knight, the insain honor of a Paladine gone mad, and the ever changing honor of the common man. These honors, these goods, these neutrals, these evils are all very different, but all share common traits. They are forever changing, will change for eternity,and have, are, and will be switched, reversed, altered, turned inside out, outside in, upside down, rightside up, left, right, and every which way imaginable. Wether you beleive this or not is up to you and beleif in this stament will, just like honor and alinment, forever change.That's almost what I believe. I believe that by "general terms" you mean "Western values." An occasionally these "Western values" do not hold, you are correct -- they no longer hold as soon as you step outside of Western culture. Therefore, these switch all the time, in my opinion. Wait did you all leave the discution about if acts of evil can be described as good? :confused:I hope not... I'm enjoying this discussion thoroughly. Go ahead, throw an act at me... I'd enjoy the moral exercise. But be wary -- I'm in the middle of a paper on this very topic, so I'm all warmed up. Again I ask, Could I have some situations or questions asked which would help me decide upon an alignment for my character?I'll answer a question with a question: what kind of society does your character come from? Because, with this information, we could determine the alignment of your character. Or, we could impose the western value system. Which would you prefer: your character's society's values, or western values?
Tenzhi 02-04-05, 01:47 AM	With any specific action, I believe that from someone's perspective it could be considered "good." For example, you bring up the Black Plague. Some might consider the death of so many "good" because those individuals were heathens (from their perspective), worshipping a false god, and deserved to perish from this Earth. Let us not confuse "beneficial to one's goals" with "Good." And incidentally, that example is still justifying the means (the Black Plague) via the ends (the deaths of many heathens).
Kingside_Bishop 02-04-05, 02:15 AM	Let us not confuse "beneficial to one's goals" with "Good."Must they be seperate? I believe they can be quite tangled, especially when someone believes their goals to be "good." And incidentally, that example is still justifying the means (the Black Plague) via the ends (the deaths of many heathens).You're right. How, then, do I seperate the action from the end? Merely by examining the fact of the deaths? Then there's no moral judgement... which is then totally useless for this discussion. As soon as we impose morals, we can ask why that action deserves the label we give it. At that point, our goals in that label become clear. Therefore, if we intend to have a discussion about morals, we can't seperate actions from goals -- because we're imposing morals, we're also implying goals.
Tenzhi 02-04-05, 02:40 AM	Must they be seperate? I believe they can be quite tangled, especially when someone believes their goals to be "good." They're only tangled if one cannot look beyond one's own goals. You're right. How, then, do I seperate the action from the end? Merely by examining the fact of the deaths? Then there's no moral judgement... which is then totally useless for this discussion. In this case you're right and there is no moral judgement to be made. There is no malicious intent involved because a disease is (generally speaking) incapable of malicious intent. It is not good or evil. Now, had a person purposely spread a plague then there is a moral judgement to be made. Had this person spread a plague even among our enemies, we would judge it to be an evil act despite the fact that it benefits us. We would make this judgement according to our best guess at what constitutes Evil. Whether the Universe agrees with our judgement in this matter remains to be seen, but we are making the judgement seperate from our goals (e.g. seperating the ends from the means). As soon as we impose morals, we can ask why that action deserves the label we give it. At that point, our goals in that label become clear. Therefore, if we intend to have a discussion about morals, we can't seperate actions from goals -- because we're imposing morals, we're also implying goals. Only if we maintain a selfish view does this occur. If we are attempting to be moral creatures, we are capable of making moral judgements despite their accordance with our own goals or their benefit to us. This is why doing the "right" thing isn't always easy, because it may be detrimental to our goals/well-being. In this way, something may be detrimental but still "Good."
jagggar 02-04-05, 10:28 AM	I'll answer a question with a question: what kind of society does your character come from? Because, with this information, we could determine the alignment of your character. Or, we could impose the western value system. Which would you prefer: your character's society's values, or western values?Good thing I'm looking for a question as the answer. . . Well, technically she comes from a society of Digimon watchers who collected on The Digimon Experience, the fanfic boards to be exact. . . Err. . . Not exactly sure she has a society. Her worldview I might be able to do. I'll edit it in later. Need to learn not to post and to do homework. In this case you're right and there is no moral judgement to be made. There is no malicious intent involved because a disease is (generally speaking) incapable of malicious intent. It is not good or evil.I back this statement. Would've said it myself, perhaps in different words, if I'd gotten to it first, but *shrugs* Very well, then, I'll step outside of the "ends justify the means" argument for a moment. We'll totally disregard the end, for now, and look only at the means -- the actions. With any specific action, I believe that from someone's perspective it could be considered "good." I hope not... I'm enjoying this discussion thoroughly. Go ahead, throw an act at me... I'd enjoy the moral exercise. But be wary -- I'm in the middle of a paper on this very topic, so I'm all warmed up. Perhaps the problem you have in seperating the act from the end is that your position requires a knowledge of the end persued in order for it to be true. If you have no end, do you have a point? Did I write back to you? I thought I sent a PM. Lack of a response due to you being gone a while, or did I forget to send mine?
Kingside_Bishop 02-04-05, 11:29 AM	They're only tangled if one cannot look beyond one's own goals.That's correct. They can be tangled -- which is why we should try to look beyond our own goals. But there are those that can't, as you've said, and from their view certain actions are "good." That is, if something happens, this person may consider it to be "good" because it serves his goals and he believes his goals to be "good." So, the act is "good," from that person's perspective. But, it also may be "evil," from someone else's perspective. Now, had a person purposely spread a plague then there is a moral judgement to be made. Had this person spread a plague even among our enemies, we would judge it to be an evil act despite the fact that it benefits us. We would make this judgement according to our best guess at what constitutes Evil. Whether the Universe agrees with our judgement in this matter remains to be seen, but we are making the judgement seperate from our goals (e.g. seperating the ends from the means).So, as the bolding shows, we agree that alignment depends on perspective? This is almost exactly what I believe, except that I would replace "the Universe" with "other perspectives." And I question that we are making the judgement separate from our goals. One of the goals of Western culture is supposed to be fairness, mercy, and compassion. If we look at it from this perspective (as we do, being members of Western culture) we would consider the act of spreading the plague an "evil" act, because it does not agree with what we consider "good" -- fairness, mercy, and compassion. But for someone whose only concern was the elimination of his enemy, and he believed that to be good, the act of spreading the plague would be a "good" act, because it does agree with what he/she considers "good" -- the elimination of his enemy. Again, "good" and "evil" depend on perspective. We can't step out of the ends/means argument, because as you yourself have said Tenzhi: "The only way to remove such wants and needs [read: ends] is to destroy the ego entirely, which one cannot do and maintain sense of self."~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Only if we maintain a selfish view does this occur. If we are attempting to be moral creatures, we are capable of making moral judgements despite their accordance with our own goals or their benefit to us. This is why doing the "right" thing isn't always easy, because it may be detrimental to our goals/well-being. In this way, something may be detrimental but still "Good."In the case of empathy, we include others' goals into our own goals: but they're still goals, and still factor into whether or not they could be considered good or evil. Perhaps the problem you have in seperating the act from the end is that your position requires a knowledge of the end persued in order for it to be true. If you have no end, do you have a point?No, I absolutely have no point whatsoever if we don't consider ends. But, to rephrase myself, and something that echoes something that Tenzhi has said: we can't consider morality without considering goals, because (I believe) that our goals determine our morality. I challenge you to put forth an action that was not morally motivated. Did I write back to you? I thought I sent a PM. Lack of a response due to you being gone a while, or did I forget to send mine?I'm so sorry jagggar, I just checked, and you did write back to me. It was just run over by four other PMs. I thought that was the original one you sent to me. I apologize. I'm replying now. Sorry again.
jagggar 02-04-05, 12:10 PM	No, I absolutely have no point whatsoever if we don't consider ends. But, to rephrase myself, and something that echoes something that Tenzhi has said: we can't consider morality without considering goals, because (I believe) that our goals determine our morality. I challenge you to put forth an action that was not morally motivated. I'm so sorry jagggar, I just checked, and you did write back to me. It was just run over by four other PMs. I thought that was the original one you sent to me. I apologize. I'm replying now. Sorry again. It's okay. I really need to be studying this semester as opposed to procrastinating no matter what form such an activity takes. Sounds like we could end up with a good seguay (spelling someone?) into creatures that are ALWAYS NEUTRAL by D&D such as animals. I've got other thoughts going through my head, but homework first. . . right? That's possibly in my PM. Or at least my atempt at it. again, it's okay
jagggar 02-04-05, 03:51 PM	Must they be seperate? I believe they can be quite tangled, especially when someone believes their goals to be "good."Must they be tangled? And I question that we are making the judgement separate from our goals. One of the goals of Western culture is supposed to be fairness, mercy, and compassion. If we look at it from this perspective (as we do, being members of Western culture) we would consider the act of spreading the plague an "evil" act, because it does not agree with what we consider "good" -- fairness, mercy, and compassion.Which part of Western culture? I go to church and hear of mercy and compassion, not as goals but as ways of life. I go elsewhere and hear of a nice cushy job, financial security (preferably gain), and graduating with honors, those being goals. American culture, I hear "Okay, get good grades. We don't really care how you get them, just don't let us know if you cheat. Don't get caught." Martha and Enron were doing great untill they got found out. I don't see fairness and mercy and compassion as ends. (Well, perhaps fairness, but that then needs a judgement if something is fair or not.)
Lady Rolindin 02-04-05, 04:24 PM	go to the forgoten Realms boards and in the thread of what's a dm to do. look for the thread of dm and pc's question. it will help you to determine your pc's alignment. it has about 15 to 30 questions that can help you to determine this and talk about your answers with some one. you might be supprised about if your charater has goood tendancies or more towards evil side depending on how you answer. I did for my charater and he's nuetarl and has what others thinks as evil but to him their not. He just knows he can't give all his gold away to all the poor he meets. some would see this and say he's evil for not helping the poor more, but you have to know your limits. and one has to know what they believe is good and evil in their mind. what is good to charater is not to the next charater, to me this comes from where and how they were raised, what values they had to learn as a child. yes I agree that it is not as black and white as my last post, but to me evil alignment charters still can get along coming from different areas and back gound. and their is a differance iin the trust level between good and evil. kie all chaters who are getting to know each other they have to ask and learn about where their from and learn about them. thus comes the proublem in learning about where one is from and what they learned, if thrown together with an rogue and the rogue came from a mother that was working the streets a nd the child is a delevloment of one of her custormer, then they will be more wily, and learn to use their wits . Say more than one raised in the country, city smarts. and street smarts, they could be evil, or good depending onhow thier action is viewed by a cleric of a good god, aort a plalatin. the palatin might view their stealing something froma an evil proest of Baal as good and view stealing somthing from a dead orc or part of a carvan as bad. But the rogue might view both action as good because he or she nneded tha item and in the carvan case they were dead anyway and were not going to need it anyhow. it does come down to how you view an act, an evil chaters might fall into place as good friends and then not like some thing the pther did as an evil act. The good to me seem to be more tursting than evil at first, if they know reperation of the church, or guild thier from. to me evil knows the other reperation and will be weary at first then slowly when they get to know the other charater warm up to them , unless they have learned to never trust any one. some evil charaters are like this, trust only one's self. this way you might meet someone else, but if you can explote them and use them then you can friends untill they no longer are usfully to you. they might be friends for years and know that if they were discovered to be a friend of so and so, they will have them kiled to cover up such friends ship to stay safe. This is a differenace ot me evil will kill your firends and good can dio it to, but good would rather disasocaiate them self , or evn kill the other charater too. but not as a frist action, they think about it before acting asleast to me they do. maybe some cahartaters don't but each chararter is different and act accourding to how they are riased as a child and their profession they have learned. this is interesting topic and , a charater aligment does need to be peg by the system as to how you act, unfortntlylee fo all of us. may be we should just not use the alignment system and join a guild accourding to how your charater feels about this group or that group.
jagggar 02-04-05, 06:28 PM	jagggar knows (should read "believes", but is a stronger conviction than just a belief) that Good and Evil are real; not just words that can be twisted around as your point suggests. She doesn't make it a point to argue in favor of the idea however. If someone believes otherwise, it doesn't really matter to her. jagggar believes there is an Ultimate Good that is a being or force of some sort as opposed to just an ideal or concept. She believes that while this Ultimate Good isn't extremely active at the current time, there will come a time at which the UG metaphorically puts its foot down and all which does not bend to its will will be destroyed. (She believes that it gives everyone a chance to make that choice.) jagggar refuses to bend to its will, willing enough to accept that her fate will be destruction. Reasoning ranging from "Just. . . No." to pure rebellion to disagreements when it comes to method (see below). In the mean time, jagggar's gunna have "fun". Destruction and toying with people are her two main pastimes. Collecting power is another because it can help expand her selection from which she destroies and toys. She likes little kids, especially the innocent ones, and has a soft spot for them. Depending on the situation she may do what she can to get them out of the way of danger. She hates those who abuse women and particularly children. If it's sexual abuse, it's a worse "crime". If she has the time and such, she'll either kill them or make darn sure they won't be doing it again. She hates sexual predators and will hunt them down and make them suffer if she has the time and such. This and the above are mainly what she diagrees with the UG on. She doesn't believe that such fith ("with an apology to filth for insluting it") should not be allowed to exist. She doesn't have any particular qualms about murder or anything against murderers*. An opponent which is completely defenseless is either dead, a well held captive, or can be ignored. *Murdering the definately completely defenseless like a small child (that isn't special as a part of a prophesy or has weird powers or is really a ghost like Sadako (american version: Samara) or Toshio) is possibly a sign of weakness or may fall under the category of abusive. Killing small children also isn't very good PR. Mass murder is okay IF it is dished out equally, along the lines of the t-shirt: "I'm not racist. I hate everyone equally." Genocide should be done swiftly, not lengthening the to-be-dead's lives unnecessarally. If jagggar does make true friends, she is very loyal to them. It is very hard to become one of her friends. If she feels as though she's been betrayed by a friend, it's hunting season. Rivals must be defeated. There is no time limit. Remains of those who would usually be considered good by the D&D scale should generally be respected. If a rival, remains may be put on display, but anyone who disrespects them to a certian degeree (I'm not exactly sure of the degeree) shall be pulverized/taught respect. Remains of filth and below may be disrespected (desceration, put on open display for mocking, other creative things). If a rival, the particular "offenses" determine level of respect. Okay, that's a start I guess.
Lady Rolindin 02-04-05, 06:58 PM	A questionarre DMs may find useful to give their players. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thoughts? Comments? Ideas? You, your character, and yourself. This document is meant to help a player get more into their character. And to help DMs do what DMs do, of course. Information: Name: Age: Race: Gender: Background (Childhood, etcetera): Let's jump straight in. A questionnaire will be first - if the question dosen't apply (example, what would you do if a spell backfired and you're playing a 6 int barbarian,) spell out why it won't work. Chapter and verse, don't just say it won't apply. here's what triskar my halfelf gem caster would do, fill one out your self and find out somthing about your charater. 1: You are on a dark street in a city late at night, and find a sackful of silver. There is nobody at all in sight. (If you're truely paranoid, magical or physical scoping of the area also reveals no-one.) What do you do? 2: You have returned to your hometown/base of operations/city from a long and ardous trek. Your feet hurt, you're probably beaten up some, and you have a purse full of recovered loot. What is the first thing you do? 3: Your mentor is ill and has bade you come to her/his side before she/he dies. You are far away, and in the middle of a very importent trip, but you can make it to her/his side if you drop everything and go immideately. What do you do? 4: The party bard is whistling a tune you hate. What do you do? 5: Another adventurer in your party has lain claim to an object you covet. What do you do? 6: Your Familar/Animal Companion/Trusty steed/faithful old dog has been killed by one of your party members who, while under the influence of a blind spell, accidently filled it full of arrows thinking it was a monster. What do you do? (Once you get up off the ground, if it was a familar.) 7: While in a city, a comely bar wench/waiter has caught your eye. What do you do? 8: The princess of a kingdom that owes you favor looks up to you as a mentor, and wishes to run away from home to follow in your footsteps. She makes this known to you. What do you do? 9: While in a tavern, a drunken dwarf insults your mother's honor. What do you do? 10: The party wizard wants to take downtime in a city so he can hit the stacks at the library. The other two in the party disagree, and want to hit the trail again. What do you do? 11: A noble wants you to marry his son/daughter. Said son/daughter is ugly becuase she/he mother was mated with a troll, who's offspring mated with an ogre. What do you do? 12: You stand over a vampress who's castle your party snuck into and ambushed. She is begging for mercy, as the Cleric raises the stake. What do you do? 13: War has broken out between your kingdom and the kingdom of another party member. He intends to answer the rallying call from his Liege, and you know full well the danger this person, who is a skilled warrior, could pose to your kingdom. What do you do? 14: A lonely red dragoness has you cornered, with the rest of your companions fled. She offers you your life, if you will indulge her in the bed. What do you do? 15: You are unable to read a book, but have been told it's contents contain a listing of your family's ancient burial sites, possibly which hold great treasure. The party wizard tells you it contains no such information. What do you do? 16: The party barbarian drank all of his ale, and then drank yours without asking. What do you do? 17: Your magic/warrior/monk academy/monestary/place of learning has heard of your exploits and requested you return there for a year to teach. What do you do? 18: You've been framed for a murder you had reason, opportunity and ability to commit. But you didn't do it. What did you do? 19: Your God/dess has been destroyed, and you know of this fact. What do you do? 20: You have the potential for wealth beyond measure at your fingertips. the catch is you have to kill the rest of your party in their sleep. What do you do? 21:Your skill at fencing/magic has become legend. Then someone challenges you to a duel to the death. What do you do? 22: Years ago, your King allowed your hometown to be overrun by an invading horde of orcs, because he needed soldiers to secure his family's trade routes, leading to the serial rape and murder of your mother, which you were forced to watch from a hiding spot. Now, you have learned of an attempt on his life. What do you do? 23: An orcish horde has gathered under the leader of one powerful chieftan, and your party has been captured and taken before him. He expresses a desire to have your party take her to the King of your nation, with whom he wishes to negotiate safe passage through his lands for the purposes of leaving this continent by sea to wage war on an orc kingdom across said sea. Orcs have no history of making peaceful contacts with other races. What do you do? 24. You're tired and weary, on the last leg of a long trip to get to a city. The food ran out about two days ago, and you're hungry. Then you come across a farmer on the road, shaking his head and working to try an put his crop of hay back on his cart, which it fell off of. What do you do? 25. When you go to hunt down an adult red dragon that attacked a town, for reasons unknown, she flees her horde room. When you corner her, she's standing protectively over a clutch of quivering eggs, about to hatch any second. She and you both know that your group is outfitted with magic that will make her breath ineffective, the and you're well-armed to defeat her, especially in this room that's too small for flight. What do you do? 26. Along the road, you encounter a kobold that looks injured - he's unconcious, bleeding slowly from an arrow wound. What do you do? 27. When you divide the treasure, you correctly identify what everyone else thinks are silver coins as platinum. What do you do? 28. When you divide the treasure, you correctly identify what everyone else thinks are platinum coins as silver. What do you do? 29. Inside a dungeon, you come across what appears to be an adolescent Erinyes devil, chained to a dungeon wall and apparently having been used as a sex toy. She glares at you with hatred as you enter. What do you do? 30. When you're in a position to do off a demon king who's been responsible for countless death and suffering, he swears he'll make you all princes and princesses, Lords and Ladies among mere mortals, with an immortal lifespan and wealthy beyond the dreams of kings, if you spare his life. What do you do? 31.A king who owes you a favor for recovering his lienage's crown asks you another small favor. His princess daughter becomes hostile whenever anyone mentions her bethrothal to a prince. After a few minutes of talking to her as simply a friend, it's obvious to you (though not to her) that she is deeply like's women better than men. What do you do? My answers it make's me neutral good with some evil but it's not evil to me. 1: You are on a dark street in a city late at night, and find a sackful of silver. There is nobody at all in sight. (If you're truely paranoid, magical or physical scoping of the area also reveals no-one.) What do you do? I would test for magic to see idf traped or magic on the bag, then would go find the nearest city force or guard. and explain to them and if they gave me an detect lie spell test I would know I was tellin the truth. someone lost it or it was stoled, if you can't make money by your skills don't steal it. 2: You have returned to your hometown/base of operations/city from a long and ardous trek. Your feet hurt, you're probably beaten up some, and you have a purse full of recovered loot. What is the first thing you do? go to the temple of Mystra and pray that all I did was right and just to my god and give some to the church. then go home and see how things are going since my departure. 3: Your mentor is ill and has bade you come to her/his side before she/he dies. You are far away, and in the middle of a very importent trip, but you can make it to her/his side if you drop everything and go immideately. What do you do? I would have to tell the party I have to go see my mentor . he is important and I would have them stay their and have a friend take my place. 4: The party bard is whistling a tune you hate. What do you do? I would enor it knowing that some things I do proubaly make him or her mad. and think of a yune I like in my head. 5: Another adventurer in your party has lain claim to an object you covet. What do you do? I would ask that we, talk about it and if they still want it I wopuld not fihgt them over it somthing better is always coming to you. 6: Your Familar/Animal Companion/Trusty steed/faithful old dog has been killed by one of your party members who, while under the influence of a blind spell, accidently filled it full of arrows thinking it was a monster. What do you do? (Once you get up off the ground, if it was a familar.) I would be mad at first and after calming dow I would realize that they may feel just as bad for doing the deed. and try to find another or have the cleric help to bring it back. 7: While in a city, a comely bar wench/waiter has caught your eye. What do you do? I would tell her in a subtil way that I not interested and thank her for her instrest in me. and go by some of my friends, i would inform her that we could talk and become friends , but i hav eno intrest in her that way. 8: The princess of a kingdom that owes you favor looks up to you as a mentor, and wishes to run away from home to follow in your footsteps. She makes this known to you. What do you do? I would want her to stay in the knigdom , but if she is going to run away then I would rather it be knowing she's safe and leave a note that this is her chioce and was now ay forced to do this. 9: While in a tavern, a drunken dwarf insults your mother's honor. What do you do? take it lightly drunks always say things they don't remember or don't know what hey are saying to most of the poeple. say somthing like you could be right, she could have been that way at one time. 10: The party wizard wants to take downtime in a city so he can hit the stacks at the library. The other two in the party disagree, and want to hit the trail again. What do you do? I would talk to all of them and have all of them realize that, we all have things that we need to do and wizards and clerics might want to find oput about some lore. so the others can do what they have to and then we can meet back on said day or we can check on each other every day or so. 11: A noble wants you to marry his son/daughter. Said son/daughter is ugly becuase she/he mother was mated with a troll, who's offspring mated with an ogre. What do you do? If I di not love the male/female I would have to tell the noble that I can only marry the one I truly love and I am sorry that I can not fully this deed for them. and that their are one's who would but to judge by the way they treat them and what do they really want. 12: You stand over a vampress who's castle your party snuck into and ambushed. She is begging for mercy, as the Cleric raises the stake. What do you do? this could be hard since their are good vampires too, may be sorround he/ she and find out whatis going on. I proubaly would just let the ckeric do it and not really know if it was a good vampire or not. 13: War has broken out between your kingdom and the kingdom of another party member. He intends to answer the rallying call from his Liege, and you know full well the danger this person, who is a skilled warrior, could pose to your kingdom. What do you do? If we have no proublem with each other why should we fight becuase rulers can't get along. me I would tell that's what I thought about it. 14: A lonely red dragoness has you cornered, with the rest of your companions fled. She offers you your life, if you will indulge her in the bed. What do you do? I would find out what she wanted and if I thought it was evil I would , ask the dragon to just kill me and get it over with. 15: You are unable to read a book, but have been told it's contents contain a listing of your family's ancient burial sites, possibly which hold great treasure. The party wizard tells you it contains no such information. What do you do? I would thank the wizard and have it checked latter in the future by a second sorce to find out who's trying to fake me out. 16: The party barbarian drank all of his ale, and then drank yours without asking. What do you do? I would remind him latter that, he did so becuase he would buy me one latter if were friends , he's just drinking time mode right now. beisdes latter he will buy me a drink latter on, and he will not be in adrunk mode 17: Your magic/warrior/monk academy/monestary/place of learning has heard of your exploits and requested you return there for a year to teach. What do you do? I would think it over and then, decide what is best for the group. If another could take my place then it could work out, and if I knew others to take my place I would have it arrained to rejion them latter and whern their in the area they could visite. 18: You've been framed for a murder you had reason, opportunity and ability to commit. But you didn't do it. What did you do? If I could prove I didn't do it I would prove it and then let the other person be looked for. one does not run away if you know and can prove it and some times you have to prove it by your actions and stay and stick it out and help to find the one who did it. 19: Your God/dess has been destroyed, and you know of this fact. What do you do? I would be lost for a while but find a god simular to the one I worshiped. 20: You have the potential for wealth beyond measure at your fingertips. the catch is you have to kill the rest of your party in their sleep. What do you do? Is is worth having you consence bother you if you did kill all of them, share and share alike. 21:Your skill at fencing/magic has become legend. Then someone challenges you to a duel to the death. What do you do? I would want to know why to the death, was it somthing from my past. I would not seek such a duel, but if pressed to fight then would. 22: Years ago, your King allowed your hometown to be overrun by an invading horde of orcs, because he needed soldiers to secure his family's trade routes, leading to the serial rape and murder of your mother, which you were forced to watch from a hiding spot. Now, you have learned of an attempt on his life. What do you do? I would tell the king, knowing that ruling a kindom is harder that it looks. and I would make sure that if the kings army couln't help again that the town could be helped to fight back. 23: An orcish horde has gathered under the leader of one powerful chieftan, and your party has been captured and taken before him. He expresses a desire to have your party take her to the King of your nation, with whom he wishes to negotiate safe passage through his lands for the purposes of leaving this continent by sea to wage war on an orc kingdom across said sea. Orcs have no history of making peaceful contacts with other races. What do you do? I would take him to the king and then let the king decide if the orc leader is telling the truth. I would be weary and I sure the king would be also 24. You're tired and weary, on the last leg of a long trip to get to a city. The food ran out about two days ago, and you're hungry. Then you come across a farmer on the road, shaking his head and working to try an put his crop of hay back on his cart, which it fell off of. What do you do? Help the farmer to put the hay back into the cart, he might help us and be able to help us or know of a friend who could. 25. When you go to hunt down an adult red dragon that attacked a town, for reasons unknown, she flees her horde room. When you corner her, she's standing protectively over a clutch of quivering eggs, about to hatch any second. She and you both know that your group is outfitted with magic that will make her breath ineffective, the and you're well-armed to defeat her, especially in this room that's too small for flight. What do you do? I would not kill her, and make a tready with her. since you could help to stop her from killing humans and elves. the others races that I consider evil are open game. ( I know this is a evil act within itself, but you friendly races are better than they one's who do horribale things to the other races.) 26. Along the road, you encounter a kobold that looks injured - he's unconcious, bleeding slowly from an arrow wound. What do you do? I would help him and heal him and tell the others to let him live he could know somthing that could be usfully, and in the future if captured and he's ther he will stick up for you. 27. When you divide the treasure, you correctly identify what everyone else thinks are silver coins as platinum. What do you do? tell them the truth that it's a illusion and they are silver, if they don't believe me then they can fool others but I won't do so. 28. When you divide the treasure, you correctly identify what everyone else thinks are platinum coins as silver. What do you do? I would tell them that an illusion is on the platinum coins and they are silver. 29. Inside a dungeon, you come across what appears to be an adolescent Erinyes devil, chained to a dungeon wall and apparently having been used as a sex toy. She glares at you with hatred as you enter. What do you do? I would not kill her but offer her freedom and make her understand taht not all from this plane are evil. she can leave to go back to where she came from f she choise. I would also tell her that I wish not to kill her, but I will defend my self if I have to, and that I'm not part of the one's who captured her. 30. When you're in a position to do off a demon king who's been responsible for countless death and suffering, he swears he'll make you all princes and princesses, Lords and Ladies among mere mortals, with an immortal lifespan and wealthy beyond the dreams of kings, if you spare his life. What do you do? I would not want to rule in such a way, it would be evil to me to rule in this way. I would if on this plane send him back to his plane and put a perminted block from him returing to this plane. 31.A king who owes you a favor for recovering his lienage's crown asks you another small favor. His princess daughter becomes hostile whenever anyone mentions her bethrothal to a prince. After a few minutes of talking to her as simply a friend, it's obvious to you (though not to her) that she is deeply like's women better than men. What do you do? I would tell her that she could be like the elves in their wats of strangeness, thus that the elves men sometimes have 2 women they live with and It would not be unthinkable to have elf women who like elf women, so she could still do as her father ask's just make sure that her betroved knows and I'm sure that he will like bining able to sleep around with other women. and let her have her women thing. it's a political marriage, not love, so she has to use it to her advanage.
jagggar 02-04-05, 07:20 PM	I thought I knew what you were talking about and I did. I just couldn't find it. Drat, and now someone's bumped it up to first page so I look kinda stupid. Grah. You might want to edit your post, right now you've got the questionarre in there twice.
Kingside_Bishop 02-04-05, 07:56 PM	Jagggar, I'd say your character is True Chaotic. You basically do what you want, with little regard for greater authority unless it suits you. You may be after domination of some kind, but that's just power lust, which isn't inherently evil. You may occasionally partake in evil actions, but that's only because they get you what you want. You're equally likely to partake in good actions, if they get you what you want. LR, that's a cool questionaire. Another one, complete with a scoring system, can be found in the Hero Builder's Guidebook.
jagggar 02-04-05, 08:09 PM	True Chaotic. :lightbulb :lightbulb :lightbulb :lightbulb :lightbulb :lightbulb :lightbulb :lightbulb :lightbulb :lightbulb :lightbulb :lightbulb :lightbulb :lightbulb That's IT!!!!!!!!!!!! I've got an idea that boarders on stupid. It'll take me a bit to get it mapped out in Notepad. ^ / \ / \ / \ /EXALTED\ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ /_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _\ /| | | |\ / | | | | \ / | LG | NG | CG | \ / | | | | \ / |___________|___________|___________| \ / | | NN | | \ / | | ----- | | \ < TL | LN | |TN | | CN | TC > \ | | ----- | | / \ |___________|___________|___________| / \ | | | | / \ | | | | / \ | LE | NE | CE | / \ | | | | / \|_ _ _ _ _ _|_ _ _ _ _ _|_ _ _ _ _ _|/ \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ VILE! / \ / \ / \ / v
jagggar 02-04-05, 09:31 PM	Okay, so my crazy idea is in the post above. I'll only explain if asked. Just to clarify, KB, do you mean True Chaotic, or Chaotic Neutral? There a difference or not? And would you allow her in a "morally mature" games that you run? I really find it odd that the Guild of Neutrality has been overrun by a discussion of the "moral axis" of D&D when it currently is the guild that covers the "ethical axis" of D&D to a degree.
Kingside_Bishop 02-04-05, 09:53 PM	Okay, so my crazy idea is in the post above. I'll only explain if asked.I love it! That's great... copying and pasting now! Just to clarify, KB, do you mean True Chaotic, or Chaotic Neutral? There a difference or not?I don't think there's a difference, but when you post it as you have above, I think there should be! I just don't like to refer to a character a "Neutral" something. It can lessen the value of the character, sometimes. "True" something sounds much better. Although, with your graphic above, I think we could change the "True" alignments to match the Vile and Exalted alignments dedication... yes, I like a lot! And would you allow her in a "morally mature" games that you run?Yes, absolutely and without a doubt. You defined your character by how she thinks, how she reacts, what she feels. You understand her motivation beyond just good and evil. I'd love to have that character in one of my campaigns. I really find it odd that the Guild of Neutrality has been overrun by a discussion of the "moral axis" of D&D when it currently is the guild that covers the "ethical axis" of D&D to a degree.You're right, this is the place for morally neutral characters to take refuge. But then, it might be appropriate for such an argument to come about here.
jagggar 02-04-05, 10:31 PM	I love it! That's great... copying and pasting now! :blush: <--But pretend the corners are slightly upturned. I don't think there's a difference, but when you post it as you have above, I think there should be! I just don't like to refer to a character a "Neutral" something. It can lessen the value of the character, sometimes. "True" something sounds much better. Although, with your graphic above, I think we could change the "True" alignments to match the Vile and Exalted alignments dedication... yes, I like a lot!I sort of have that problem every now and then. And on it's own, the sound a tad bit weak. Ah, here: True Chaotic = Anarchic True Lawful = Axiomatic Sound good? Would you put jagggar at CN or Anarchic? Yes, absolutely and without a doubt. You defined your character by how she thinks, how she reacts, what she feels. You understand her motivation beyond just good and evil. I'd love to have that character in one of my campaigns.Oddly enough, that's the long version, the short version on the other hand was:"I do whatever I want, whenever I want (unless I happen to fall to an enchantment spell)."I don't play this kind of game with players who would create a "Chaotic Stupid" character (as the "I do what I want" players are sometimes called). I'll DM for them, but will DM in a traditional alignment specific setting... because that imposes the kind of system that such players need. Playing in a game like this (that I like to run) requires a considerable amount of thought and moral maturity. You're right, this is the place for morally neutral characters to take refuge. But then, it might be appropriate for such an argument to come about here.I'm so tempted to suggest that all the morally neutral characters ban together, and slaughter both the GoUE and GoPG so they can't bring their philosophical issues with eachother here and so the battle between Law and Chaos can be carried out in peace. The "Ethical Axis" is dreadfully neglected.
Kingside_Bishop 02-04-05, 10:51 PM	I sort of have that problem every now and then. And on it's own, the sound a tad bit weak. Ah, here: True Chaotic = Anarchic True Lawful = Axiomatic Sound good? Would you put jagggar at CN or Anarchic?I'd put her at Chaotic Neutral. Anarchic is a total devotion to chaos. Your character's just self-motivated. Oddly enough, that's the long version, the short version on the other hand was:Yeah, well, the second time around you gave some serious thought into fleshing out the thought processes of your character. The first example sounded like "don't even try to predict what I'm gonna do, 'cause I'm crazy! Woo-hoo!" I DM'd for a character like this for awhile, and it was terrible. Wouldn't listen to anyone. Just did whatever it struck him to do. Your character, on the other hand, seems to have a fairly defined set of values. I'm so tempted to suggest that all the morally neutral characters ban together, and slaughter both the GoUE and GoPG so they can't bring their philosophical issues with eachother here and so the battle between Law and Chaos can be carried out in peace. The "Ethical Axis" is dreadfully neglected.That... should be the purpose of this guild -- to wage war on both alignment guilds. We'd act as mercenaries, but in reality we'd being encouraging both guilds to undo eachother. Occasionally, we'd help them along (with disguised characters) I think that would be tremendous fun -- playing the other alignment guilds against eachother.
jagggar 02-04-05, 11:12 PM	Anarchic is a total devotion to chaos.Isn't that sort of an oxymoron? Yeah, well, the second time around you gave some serious thought into fleshing out the thought processes of your character. The first example sounded like "don't even try to predict what I'm gonna do, 'cause I'm crazy! Woo-hoo!" I DM'd for a character like this for awhile, and it was terrible. Wouldn't listen to anyone. Just did whatever it struck him to do. Your character, on the other hand, seems to have a fairly defined set of values.Hmmm. . . :schemes: Chotic Stupid: There are those that claim Chaos as their Lord. . . And then there are those that- Wanna go ride bikes?* Some consider this a mental illness. Others find it to be a strange sort of Neutral or Chaotic. If any who had it could realize so, they'd call it a bane. Choatic Stupid characters don't normally realize that their actions cause effects. They may not have any more motive than "Uhh. . . Because?" not only as their conscience answer, but as their subconscience motive also. Each of the alignments have cursed these Chaotic Stupid persons. Chaotic Stupid characters are affected by any sort of weapon, spell, or special ability which effects characters based on alignment. (They suffer the most severe effect if it varies.) When targeted by a Detect spell, they are considered whatever the last Stupid act they committed is normally aligned with an aura of half their HD. (A Chaotic Stupid character who's last action was to burn down an orphanage will register as EVIL in a normal campaign.) Anyways, I've been playing various incarnations of jagggar for about four years or so now. Sometimes she's got a good streak, sometimes an evil one. There's some other interesting things about her which could come up during roleplaying. I also typed up a rough history of some of jagggar's previous actions, would you like to see them? That... should be the purpose of this guild -- to wage war on both alignment guilds. We'd act as mercenaries, but in reality we'd being encouraging both guilds to undo eachother. Occasionally, we'd help them along (with disguised characters) I think that would be tremendous fun -- playing the other alignment guilds against eachother. Could be interesting to do. . . *Based on a "light-bulb" joke.
redhase 02-05-05, 12:20 AM	I do love questions of alignment! Redhase lood into the mirror and brushers her drak red hair, then looks down at the paper apearing on her vanity table. Agian! Then stops brushing her hair and lays down the brush, looks in the mirror and sees her dark red eyes. Redhase get the bottle of elf blood and starts to fill in the questioner. I will give you answers in my chartaters voice. 1: You are on a dark street in a city late at night, and find a sackful of silver. There is nobody at all in sight. (If you're truely paranoid, magical or physical scoping of the area also reveals no-one.) What do you do? take it if some one is stupied enough to lose it, it's mine then waits in the shadows and and kill the first person who goes into the ally. and take thiers too. 2: You have returned to your hometown/base of operations/city from a long and ardous trek. Your feet hurt, you're probably beaten up some, and you have a purse full of recovered loot. What is the first thing you do? go to my secret hidding palce and put my loot, and the loot I took from some other volentiers who gave me thier share 3: Your mentor is ill and has bade you come to her/his side before she/he dies. You are far away, and in the middle of a very importent trip, but you can make it to her/his side if you drop everything and go immideately. What do you do? Kill the whole party and take what I want, then go back and gloat over the old fool dieing. once he's dead then claim I'm the new mage in charge of the tower and kill the rest of my fellow students who's there. 4: The party bard is whistling a tune you hate. What do you do? Use a sneak attack and aim for the hart and kill the non musical bum, make the rest of the party think that it was an sneak attack by others. 5: Another adventurer in your party has lain claim to an object you covet. What do you do? let them take it and cut thier throat's while they sleep and take it. 6: Your Familar/Animal Companion/Trusty steed/faithful old dog has been killed by one of your party members who, while under the influence of a blind spell, accidently filled it full of arrows thinking it was a monster. What do you do? (Once you get up off the ground, if it was a familar.) I would wait for the night,and act hurt while the charater to fall asleep, then I would shot them in the head with an orc arrow. then sound the alarm Orc's orc's. 7: While in a city, a comely bar wench/waiter has caught your eye. What do you do? take her to the side in the back and slip a dagger into her hart and walk out. 8: The princess of a kingdom that owes you favor looks up to you as a mentor, and wishes to run away from home to follow in your footsteps. She makes this known to you. What do you do? I would allow her to come along, but I would have a slave collar and make her a slave to my personal whims. then I would ransom her off to her father and be laughing all the way. 9: While in a tavern, a drunken dwarf insults your mother's honor. What do you do? walk up behind him latter and slip a dagger into his throat, then make sure he looks like he fell asleep. 10: The party wizard wants to take downtime in a city so he can hit the stacks at the library. The other two in the party disagree, and want to hit the trail again. What do you do? great this would allow me to be able to kill a few poeple and espacelly the one's from the party that p**** me Off. track them and kill all of them. 11: A noble wants you to marry his son/daughter. Said son/daughter is ugly becuase she/he mother was mated with a troll, who's offspring mated with an ogre. What do you do? Agree the, but when I get inside his castle, I'm going to posion and slit all thier throats. then I can be in charge. 12: You stand over a vampress who's castle your party snuck into and ambushed. She is begging for mercy, as the Cleric raises the stake. What do you do? put a slave collar on her and make her a slave to me, then make her do the things I want her to do. 13: War has broken out between your kingdom and the kingdom of another party member. He intends to answer the rallying call from his Liege, and you know full well the danger this person, who is a skilled warrior, could pose to your kingdom. What do you do? Kill the stupied trator, and make sure some one else gets the blame. 14: A lonely red dragoness has you cornered, with the rest of your companions fled. She offers you your life, if you will indulge her in the bed. What do you do? I would help her with her needs then, find away when shes weak and kill her. 15: You are unable to read a book, but have been told it's contents contain a listing of your family's ancient burial sites, possibly which hold great treasure. The party wizard tells you it contains no such information. What do you do? I would kill both of the one's who told me, their different lies anyway 16: The party barbarian drank all of his ale, and then drank yours without asking. What do you do? What till he's really drunk and slip a dagger into his hart 17: Your magic/warrior/monk academy/monestary/place of learning has heard of your exploits and requested you return there for a year to teach. What do you do? I would kill everone in the party and go back and teach, and select the best and brightest to follow in my foot steps . if they got too good I would kill them too. 18: You've been framed for a murder you had reason, opportunity and ability to commit. But you didn't do it. What did you do? It would not bother me, I would go on as nothing has happened and do my black operations and if question about it I would assasinate them. 19: Your God/dess has been destroyed, and you know of this fact. What do you do? Go to the next vilest and darkest god that my thinking is like. 20: You have the potential for wealth beyond measure at your fingertips. the catch is you have to kill the rest of your party in their sleep. What do you do? Their dead then, no proublem. Its all mine! 21:Your skill at fencing/magic has become legend. Then someone challenges you to a duel to the death. What do you do? accept tthe challenge and when they show up for the duel. what happens, they get shot by arrows before it's starts, how did that happen. Oh my. I woul dnever do such a thing, maybe. 22: Years ago, your King allowed your hometown to be overrun by an invading horde of orcs, because he needed soldiers to secure his family's trade routes, leading to the serial rape and murder of your mother, which you were forced to watch from a hiding spot. Now, you have learned of an attempt on his life. What do you do? I would alley my self with the one's who going to kill that bleep, bleeping , and then divide his kingdom and keep a few things for my self. 23: An orcish horde has gathered under the leader of one powerful chieftan, and your party has been captured and taken before him. He expresses a desire to have your party take her to the King of your nation, with whom he wishes to negotiate safe passage through his lands for the purposes of leaving this continent by sea to wage war on an orc kingdom across said sea. Orcs have no history of making peaceful contacts with other races. What do you do? I would go talk to the orc leader and persade him or her to attack the army all the way. why go fight in a land across the sea, when you can take it from the good ones. I would start a fight between the two forces and then watch to see who wins 24. You're tired and weary, on the last leg of a long trip to get to a city. The food ran out about two days ago, and you're hungry. Then you come across a farmer on the road, shaking his head and working to try an put his crop of hay back on his cart, which it fell off of. What do you do? torture the farmer and make him talk, where he lives. then throw his body on top of the buring hay, and go to the farm and eat his food and then kill his family. 25. When you go to hunt down an adult red dragon that attacked a town, for reasons unknown, she flees her horde room. When you corner her, she's standing protectively over a clutch of quivering eggs, about to hatch any second. She and you both know that your group is outfitted with magic that will make her breath ineffective, the and you're well-armed to defeat her, especially in this room that's too small for flight. What do you do? Make her give me an egg, then come back and kill her and take the rest. 26. Along the road, you encounter a kobold that looks injured - he's unconcious, bleeding slowly from an arrow wound. What do you do? slit his throat and take what ever he has, then have some rosted kobold. yum yum. 27. When you divide the treasure, you correctly identify what everyone else thinks are silver coins as platinum. What do you do? I would not tell them, I would kill them in their sleep one at a time and then take all of it. 28. When you divide the treasure, you correctly identify what everyone else thinks are platinum coins as silver. What do you do? I would not tell them, why if they can't see it it's on them. I still would kill all them when it is my turn for watch and take all of it. 29. Inside a dungeon, you come across what appears to be an adolescent Erinyes devil, chained to a dungeon wall and apparently having been used as a sex toy. She glares at you with hatred as you enter. What do you do? I would put a slave collar on her and make her my slave, and make sure she knows who's in charge. 30. When you're in a position to do off a demon king who's been responsible for countless death and suffering, he swears he'll make you all princes and princesses, Lords and Ladies among mere mortals, with an immortal lifespan and wealthy beyond the dreams of kings, if you spare his life. What do you do? I would listen then take the immortal life and kill him also. making me the Lord of the evil pits. 31.A king who owes you a favor for recovering his lienage's crown asks you another small favor. His princess daughter becomes hostile whenever anyone mentions her bethrothal to a prince. After a few minutes of talking to her as simply a friend, it's obvious to you (though not to her) that she is deeply like's women better than men. What do you do? Kidnap her and then while I wait for the ransom gold. I would torture her. then make sure the king found her that way. Then go back in disquise and kill the king. "most people already know I don't play well with other's, espacally when it's that time of the month. the paper disapears then. She puts the featheared quile on the rester, then closes the elf blood ink. Get me some elf meat, roast it first." Redhase looks at you with her red eyes growing redder then you see her no more.
jagggar 02-05-05, 01:42 AM	Great, Now I've got the urge to fill it out. Alright, start with question one. . . jagggar: Oh no you don't! me: Huh? jagggar: It's about me, I get to fill it out. me: But- jagggar: *rips it out of my hands* me: Grrrr. . . jagggar: Should learn not to make characters more powerful than yourself. me: -.-; *twitch* jagggar: *smriks and runs off with the questions* *sits down in a chair modified with the extra legs that catch you when you lean back, leans back and puts her feet up on the table* Okay, where was she. . . Thoughts? Comments? Ideas? Money is evil. You want to be good. Give me all your money. You, your character, and yourself. This document is meant to help a player get more into their character. And to help DMs do what DMs do, of course. Information: Name: jagggar Age: What the?! You don't ask a woman her age! Grrrr. . . Race: Human. . . once upon a time. . . Gender: Feemale. And yes, it'll cost you. Background (Childhood, etcetera): I'm not about to share that with you. Let's jump straight in. A questionnaire will be first - if the question dosen't apply (example, what would you do if a spell backfired and you're playing a 6 int barbarian,) spell out why it won't work. Chapter and verse, don't just say it won't apply. 1: You are on a dark street in a city late at night, and find a sackful of silver. There is nobody at all in sight. (If you're truely paranoid, magical or physical scoping of the area also reveals no-one.) What do you do? Take it obviously. Exchange it for a more carriable coin or equipment I need as soon as possible. Don't want to be caught red-handed. 2: You have returned to your hometown/base of operations/city from a long and ardous trek. Your feet hurt, you're probably beaten up some, and you have a purse full of recovered loot. What is the first thing you do? Base of Operations. Drop the loot by the "door" and take a nap, or maybe a bubble bath if I've got one of those. Something relaxing. 3: Your mentor is ill and has bade you come to her/his side before she/he dies. You are far away, and in the middle of a very importent trip, but you can make it to her/his side if you drop everything and go immideately. What do you do? I have a mentor? That's news. Either my mentor is already dead, we won't discuss his/her death. . . or well, I already said I didn't know I had one. 4: The party bard is whistling a tune you hate. What do you do? I have a party bard? I have a party?! PMS look of death. If it doesn't shut him up, he's either dumber than dirt or asking for it. 5: Another adventurer in your party has lain claim to an object you covet. What do you do? I have a party?! Depends what the object is. How bad do I want it? 6: Your Familar/Animal Companion/Trusty steed/faithful old dog has been killed by one of your party members who, while under the influence of a blind spell, accidently filled it full of arrows thinking it was a monster. What do you do? (Once you get up off the ground, if it was a familar.) Vow revenge +1. Revenge may wait till the end of the mission, but it will come. . . 7: While in a city, a comely bar wench/waiter has caught your eye. What do you do? Comely? Phbp. Hott? Now that might be another matter. . . Then again, he's probably STD infected. I'll save the sex for the hott guy I'm out to kill. 8: The princess of a kingdom that owes you favor looks up to you as a mentor, and wishes to run away from home to follow in your footsteps. She makes this known to you. What do you do? Bust out laughing. WTF is she thinking?! Depending on the mood, either: Cash in my favor as them knocking some sense into her, or Mention it in passing if I'm pretty sure it's not approved of and I'm feeling a bit mean, or Cash in my favor as best possible without getting half the kingdom and such, cash is good, and then "kidnapping" the princess. Hey, if she really wants to follow in my footsteps, she isn't gunna get upset about running away. Hmm, how I "teach" her. . . Congradulate her for being a fool and tell her to go home a few days away, possibly accepting her if she makes it home in peices that can be put back together, or Take her much farther from home and have her survive on her own for a while, or Find the most ruggedly handsome outlaw I can find and set them up and dump her on him. 9: While in a tavern, a drunken dwarf insults your mother's honor. What do you do? *looks around the tavern* There wasn't a drunken dwarf here, understand? *asks for a towel to wipe the blood off myself* Alternatively, buy him some more drinks, find someone who takes great offense to such remarks and get the dwarf talkin'. 10: The party wizard wants to take downtime in a city so he can hit the stacks at the library. The other two in the party disagree, and want to hit the trail again. What do you do? Again with the party? I don't care, I've already got what I want accomplished, I'm leaving the group anyway. 11: A noble wants you to marry his son/daughter. Said son/daughter is ugly becuase she/he mother was mated with a troll, who's offspring mated with an ogre. What do you do? If I kept on the other kingdom's princess on, test her assionation skills. Otherwise, notifiy them that I don't do relationships in what ever way necessacry. I can take the throne another way if I really want it. 12: You stand over a vampress who's castle your party snuck into and ambushed. She is begging for mercy, as the Cleric raises the stake. What do you do? Call the castle. I mean, I'm working with a cleric? In a party?! I mean, stop the cleric "accidentally" by drastic means. I mean, sheish, this guy's killing bloodsucking females. He's gunna go after all the golddigers in the world next. Not that some of them don't deserve it, but seriously! 13: War has broken out between your kingdom and the kingdom of another party member. He intends to answer the rallying call from his Liege, and you know full well the danger this person, who is a skilled warrior, could pose to your kingdom. What do you do? Tell him he's either transfering citizenship to my empire or he's not making it home. Seriously. I'm not a king so I wouldn't have a kingdom. I don't even like the title queen, it sounds like crap. It's Empress jagggar, remember that. Actually, it's just Empress for you. Darn you, you've gotten me on a rant. 14: A lonely red dragoness has you cornered, with the rest of your companions fled. She offers you your life, if you will indulge her in the bed. What do you do? The. . . ? Ew. . . No. . . Dragon on the other hand. What does he mean by that? He should know that I came to have him indulge me in bed. Red dragons hottttttttt. . . *droolz* 15: You are unable to read a book, but have been told it's contents contain a listing of your family's ancient burial sites, possibly which hold great treasure. The party wizard tells you it contains no such information. What do you do? Dang it, great, now there's a spot on the. . . Oh yeah, the question. . . He better be saying it doesn't have any listing of my family's burial sites. Treasure or not, that part doesn't matter as much. 16: The party barbarian drank all of his ale, and then drank yours without asking. What do you do? Buy him another round and introduce him to my friend the drunken dwarf. 17: Your magic/warrior/monk academy/monestary/place of learning has heard of your exploits and requested you return there for a year to teach. What do you do? N/A The closest I've come to training at places like those are slaughtering all attendents. 18: You've been framed for a murder you had reason, opportunity and ability to commit. But you didn't do it. What did you do? I didn't? That's actually kinda suprising. . . 19: Your God/dess has been destroyed, and you know of this fact. What do you do? Whoops. . . sorry. . . OOC: jagggar does not claim any god and believes the Ultimate Good to be undestroible. 20: You have the potential for wealth beyond measure at your fingertips. the catch is you have to kill the rest of your party in their sleep. What do you do? I see if I can negotiate the "in their sleep" part. I'd much rather they know it was I killing them. 21:Your skill at fencing/magic has become legend. Then someone challenges you to a duel to the death. What do you do? Laugh. If they have the right attitude, I might take them on (training wise) after whooping them. Hmmm. . . wonder about compatability for the princess. . . 22: Years ago, your King allowed your hometown to be overrun by an invading horde of orcs, because he needed soldiers to secure his family's trade routes, leading to the serial rape and murder of your mother, which you were forced to watch from a hiding spot. Now, you have learned of an attempt on his life. What do you do? I have a king? I've known this for how long and he's still alive? I ask to join in. Oh, and where are all the soldiers which were guarding the trade route? Officers, the guys that had no choice they'll know not to make the mistakes their commanding officers did. 23: An orcish horde has gathered under the leader of one powerful chieftan, and your party has been captured and taken before him. He expresses a desire to have your party take her to the King of your nation, with whom he wishes to negotiate safe passage through his lands for the purposes of leaving this continent by sea to wage war on an orc kingdom across said sea. Orcs have no history of making peaceful contacts with other races. What do you do? Sounds good to me. If fighting breaks out and it doesn't look good for me, bye. If fighting breaks out and it doesn't look too dangerous. . . Bye-bye king-y. Should've let them through. . . 24. You're tired and weary, on the last leg of a long trip to get to a city. The food ran out about two days ago, and you're hungry. Then you come across a farmer on the road, shaking his head and working to try an put his crop of hay back on his cart, which it fell off of. What do you do? Ask if he has food he'd be willing to part with. If not, be on my way. If he does, he gets help. 25. When you go to hunt down an adult red dragon that attacked a town, for reasons unknown, she flees her horde room. When you corner her, she's standing protectively over a clutch of quivering eggs, about to hatch any second. She and you both know that your group is outfitted with magic that will make her breath ineffective, the and you're well-armed to defeat her, especially in this room that's too small for flight. What do you do? Group? Seriously, who thinks I play well with others? Life for an egg and a favor. 26. Along the road, you encounter a kobold that looks injured - he's unconcious, bleeding slowly from an arrow wound. What do you do? I don't know, kick him while he's down then tell the new cleric the last one didn't heal a kobold when I told him to? 27. When you divide the treasure, you correctly identify what everyone else thinks are silver coins as platinum. What do you do? What? No, silver, they're definately silver. 28. When you divide the treasure, you correctly identify what everyone else thinks are platinum coins as silver. What do you do? Oh, here, you guys keep all this platinum. I'll just take this silver from our last adventure. . . *Where do I hook up with these people?* 29. Inside a dungeon, you come across what appears to be an adolescent Erinyes devil, chained to a dungeon wall and apparently having been used as a sex toy. She glares at you with hatred as you enter. What do you do? Banter back and forth with her for a while. If she wants revenge on whoever's done this to her, let her go if she swears not to attack me. Possibly help her hunt whoever it was down. 30. When you're in a position to do off a demon king who's been responsible for countless death and suffering, he swears he'll make you all princes and princesses, Lords and Ladies among mere mortals, with an immortal lifespan and wealthy beyond the dreams of kings, if you spare his life. What do you do? Laugh and ask why I'd want to be a princess and point out that I'm no lady. Actual acceptance of the deal depends on how much I'm getting paid by those wanting him dead. If he's got DvR to grab, he's goin' down no matter what. 31.A king who owes you a favor for recovering his lienage's crown asks you another small favor. His princess daughter becomes hostile whenever anyone mentions her bethrothal to a prince. After a few minutes of talking to her as simply a friend, it's obvious to you (though not to her) that she is deeply like's women better than men. What do you do? Call up my Erinyes friend and ask if she'd prefer a prince or a princess.
Tenzhi 02-05-05, 01:47 AM	So, the act is "good," from that person's perspective. But, it also may be "evil," from someone else's perspective. And blue may be green from someone else's perspective, but the same spectrum of light is being reflected regardless. The viewer's flawed perception doesn't matter to the absolute truth. But that there is an absolute truth is undeniable because the light is undeniably there.
Tenzhi 02-05-05, 01:49 AM	I really find it odd that the Guild of Neutrality has been overrun by a discussion of the "moral axis" of D&D when it currently is the guild that covers the "ethical axis" of D&D to a degree. It isn't so odd. Good or Evil are on extreme ends of the moral axis and therefore cannot be expected to have a reasonable discussion about the axis itself.
jagggar 02-05-05, 01:51 AM	But where are we to discuss the forgotten axis?
Tenzhi 02-05-05, 02:08 AM	But where are we to discuss the forgotten axis? Law and Chaos are less disputed. However, I don't believe in Chaos anyway. Anything that seems chaotic is just following a pattern the viewer doesn't understand. There is always order. And since law cannot exist without chaos, what is there to discuss? ;)
Kingside_Bishop 02-05-05, 02:18 AM	And blue may be green from someone else's perspective, but the same spectrum of light is being reflected regardless. The viewer's flawed perception doesn't matter to the absolute truth. But that there is an absolute truth is undeniable because the light is undeniably there.OK, if we're talking about a specific part of the light spectrum (the part we call "blue") it doesn't matter what we call it, as long as we recognize it as the same part of the spectrum. You may say blue, and I may say green, but it is the same color. Just like when we figured out that the Spanish meant "blue" when they say "azul," we could figure out that someone means "blue" when they say "green." The only "absolute truth" in your metaphor is the presence of the light spectrum. Our labels for that light are clearly not absolute. So, you can't make the connection that "Blue" is absolute, just because it's part of an absolute light spectrum. "Blue" is a man made creation, and thus subject to interpretation. The presence of that part of the light spectrum is not up for interpretation. But, again, our definitions are subject to interpretation. Our definitions for everything, including alignment.
Tenzhi 02-05-05, 03:20 AM	You may say blue, and I may say green, but it is the same color. Likewise, you may say Good and I may say Evil but the morality of the situation transcends our subjective perception of it. The only "absolute truth" in your metaphor is the presence of the light spectrum. Our labels for that light are clearly not absolute. The absolute truth is that "Blue" exists in the colour spectrum regardless of what we call it. Analogically speaking, "Good" exists in the moral spectrum regardless of our individual perception of it. Our labels are an attempt to define something that is already there - while we may dispute our own definitions due to flawed human perception, what we are attempting to define is an absolute.
jagggar 02-05-05, 12:00 PM	Law and Chaos are less disputed. However, I don't believe in Chaos anyway. Anything that seems chaotic is just following a pattern the viewer doesn't understand. There is always order. And since law cannot exist without chaos, what is there to discuss? ;)A lot. There's a few people out there who think if you're Choatic, you have to be Chaotic Stupid, can't make any plans or anything at all like that. If you're Lawful? Oh, well that means that you have to do exactly what everyone tells you to do. What part of the Lawful description makes it so that monks can only be lawful? Discipline isn't explictly stated as part of Law.
grimclaw 02-05-05, 11:27 PM	[QUOTE=Lady Rolindin]A questionarre DMs may find useful to give their players. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thoughts? Comments? Ideas? You, your character, and yourself. This document is meant to help a player get more into their character. And to help DMs do what DMs do, of course. Information: Name: Malikai Grimclaw Age:too old to keep count Race:Half-Celestial Human Gender:Male Background (Childhood, etcetera):See character History Thread Let's jump straight in. A questionnaire will be first - if the question dosen't apply (example, what would you do if a spell backfired and you're playing a 6 int barbarian,) spell out why it won't work. Chapter and verse, don't just say it won't apply. 1: You are on a dark street in a city late at night, and find a sackful of silver. There is nobody at all in sight. (If you're truely paranoid, magical or physical scoping of the area also reveals no-one.) What do you do? Keep it of course.Finders Keepers 2: You have returned to your hometown/base of operations/city from a long and ardous trek. Your feet hurt, you're probably beaten up some, and you have a purse full of recovered loot. What is the first thing you do?Stash my loot,then head for the nearest festhall,I need to relax and relieve some stress. 3: Your mentor is ill and has bade you come to her/his side before she/he dies. You are far away, and in the middle of a very importent trip, but you can make it to her/his side if you drop everything and go immideately. What do you do?Dont have one.Was a god but he's already dead.If I did I would go.Honor demands it. 4: The party bard is whistling a tune you hate. What do you do? Tell him him to play something else or I break his favorite instrument over his head. 5: Another adventurer in your party has lain claim to an object you covet. What do you do? Offer a fair trade.I'll eventually have something he wants. 6: Your Familar/Animal Companion/Trusty steed/faithful old dog has been killed by one of your party members who, while under the influence of a blind spell, accidently filled it full of arrows thinking it was a monster. What do you do? (Once you get up off the ground, if it was a familar.)Beat him sensless of course but since it was an accident I will eventually forgive him.Giving me that item I coveted would be very helpful. 7: While in a city, a comely bar wench/waiter has caught your eye. What do you do? Seduce her of course and make her a regular companion when I'm in town. 8: The princess of a kingdom that owes you favor looks up to you as a mentor, and wishes to run away from home to follow in your footsteps. She makes this known to you. What do you do? Accept her offer,and make one of my own.Princesses tend to be good looking.Something for something. 9: While in a tavern, a drunken dwarf insults your mother's honor. What do you do? Put his head thru the wall repeatedly.(MY character and I have that in common.) 10: The party wizard wants to take downtime in a city so he can hit the stacks at the library. The other two in the party disagree, and want to hit the trail again. What do you do? Stay in town and look up any "companions "I have thier.If none then make some. 11: A noble wants you to marry his son/daughter. Said son/daughter is ugly becuase she/he mother was mated with a troll, who's offspring mated with an ogre. What do you do?Flatly refuse.I do have standards you know. 12: You stand over a vampress who's castle your party snuck into and ambushed. She is begging for mercy, as the Cleric raises the stake. What do you do?Save her and use her abilities to my advantage.A vampire consort could be useful. 13: War has broken out between your kingdom and the kingdom of another party member. He intends to answer the rallying call from his Liege, and you know full well the danger this person, who is a skilled warrior, could pose to your kingdom. What do you do?Kill him in an honorable duel unless I really liked him then I would let him go and hope we never met on the field of battle. 14: A lonely red dragoness has you cornered, with the rest of your companions fled. She offers you your life, if you will indulge her in the bed. What do you do?Do you really need to ask?Wich way to the bedoir? 15: You are unable to read a book, but have been told it's contents contain a listing of your family's ancient burial sites, possibly which hold great treasure. The party wizard tells you it contains no such information. What do you do?SWipe the book as soon as I can and verify it.If he lied then I kill him. 16: The party barbarian drank all of his ale, and then drank yours without asking. What do you do?He's a barbarian what did you expect? 17: Your magic/warrior/monk academy/monestary/place of learning has heard of your exploits and requested you return there for a year to teach. What do you do?Take the offer and consider it an honor. 18: You've been framed for a murder you had reason, opportunity and ability to commit. But you didn't do it. What did you do?Prove my innocense and kill those responsable 19: Your God/dess has been destroyed, and you know of this fact. What do you do?If I had a god I would avenge Him/her of course. 20: You have the potential for wealth beyond measure at your fingertips. the catch is you have to kill the rest of your party in their sleep. What do you do?Go to sleep and smack myself for being honorable. 21:Your skill at fencing/magic has become legend. Then someone challenges you to a duel to the death. What do you do?Accept and show them why I'm a legend. 22: Years ago, your King allowed your hometown to be overrun by an invading horde of orcs, because he needed soldiers to secure his family's trade routes, leading to the serial rape and murder of your mother, which you were forced to watch from a hiding spot. Now, you have learned of an attempt on his life. What do you do?Kill him first in an appropriatly gruesome manner. 23: An orcish horde has gathered under the leader of one powerful chieftan, and your party has been captured and taken before him. He expresses a desire to have your party take her to the King of your nation, with whom he wishes to negotiate safe passage through his lands for the purposes of leaving this continent by sea to wage war on an orc kingdom across said sea. Orcs have no history of making peaceful contacts with other races. What do you do?Do the deed and kill the orc if he betrays the deal. 24. You're tired and weary, on the last leg of a long trip to get to a city. The food ran out about two days ago, and you're hungry. Then you come across a farmer on the road, shaking his head and working to try an put his crop of hay back on his cart, which it fell off of. What do you do?Help him out and invite myself to dinner. 25. When you go to hunt down an adult red dragon that attacked a town, for reasons unknown, she flees her horde room. When you corner her, she's standing protectively over a clutch of quivering eggs, about to hatch any second. She and you both know that your group is outfitted with magic that will make her breath ineffective, the and you're well-armed to defeat her, especially in this room that's too small for flight. What do you do?Kill her and sell the eggs. 26. Along the road, you encounter a kobold that looks injured - he's unconcious, bleeding slowly from an arrow wound. What do you do?Nurse him back to health.I'm rather fond of kobolds and I could use a servant. 27. When you divide the treasure, you correctly identify what everyone else thinks are silver coins as platinum. What do you do?Keep quiet. 28. When you divide the treasure, you correctly identify what everyone else thinks are platinum coins as silver. What do you do?Tell them.Doesnt hurt me. 29. Inside a dungeon, you come across what appears to be an adolescent Erinyes devil, chained to a dungeon wall and apparently having been used as a sex toy. She glares at you with hatred as you enter. What do you do?Make her my slave and train her.When she reaches adulthood she can take her place as a consort with the vampire.My harem is starting to get exotic.All consorts should have useful skills in battle,magic or stealth. 30. When you're in a position to do off a demon king who's been responsible for countless death and suffering, he swears he'll make you all princes and princesses, Lords and Ladies among mere mortals, with an immortal lifespan and wealthy beyond the dreams of kings, if you spare his life. What do you do?I'm already immortal and he's dead. 31.A king who owes you a favor for recovering his lienage's crown asks you another small favor. His princess daughter becomes hostile whenever anyone mentions her bethrothal to a prince. After a few minutes of talking to her as simply a friend, it's obvious to you (though not to her) that she is deeply like's women better than men. What do you do?Proper spells can change such things and having a princess as a covert lover has it's advantages. Great I'm a pervert,but at least I'm an honorable one.Sort of.
jagggar 02-05-05, 11:31 PM	Great I'm a pervert,but at least I'm an honorable one.Sort of.Haven't read them all yet, but with a few of them, might have to have jagggar start watching you. . .
grimclaw 02-05-05, 11:42 PM	Haven't read them all yet, but with a few of them, might have to have jagggar start watching you. . . It probably wont help my case but grimclaw is probably already watching Jagggar.Would it help if I mentioned he lost the love of his life and still grieves over it and as a result has an instictive aversion to love as a means of protecting himself.He uses lust as a means of filling the void this creates.Besides,for him a consort is a deadly,skilled cohort with extra benefits. :D
Tenzhi 02-05-05, 11:58 PM	What part of the Lawful description makes it so that monks can only be lawful? Discipline isn't explictly stated as part of Law. I could've sworn discipline was mentioned in the Description chapter as part of lawful. But in any case, I disagree with the monk's alignment restriction. At the very least, I think True Neutral is an appropriate alignment for a monk.
jagggar 02-06-05, 12:02 AM	From SRD: "“Law” implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should." You only get the disicpline if you decide to take Chaos and reverse it for Law. Also from SRD: "“Chaos” implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Those who promote chaotic behavior say that only unfettered personal freedom allows people to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them." Will get back to grimclaw later. . .
jagggar 02-06-05, 12:32 AM	It probably wont help my case but grimclaw is probably already watching Jagggar. Would it help if I mentioned he lost the love of his life and still grieves over it and as a result has an instictive aversion to love as a means of protecting himself. He uses lust as a means of filling the void this creates. Besides,for him a consort is a deadly,skilled cohort with extra benefits. :DUhhhh. . . What kind of watching. . . ? Maybe a bit. Depending on the jagggar incarnation, she does the whole lust thing too. :w00t: :cheer: Extra benefits! :cheer: :w00t: There's a few specifics though: 22: Years ago, your King allowed your hometown to be overrun by an invading horde of orcs, because he needed soldiers to secure his family's trade routes, leading to the serial rape and murder of your mother, which you were forced to watch from a hiding spot. Now, you have learned of an attempt on his life. What do you do?Kill him first in an appropriatly gruesome manner. 25. When you go to hunt down an adult red dragon that attacked a town, for reasons unknown, she flees her horde room. When you corner her, she's standing protectively over a clutch of quivering eggs, about to hatch any second. She and you both know that your group is outfitted with magic that will make her breath ineffective, the and you're well-armed to defeat her, especially in this room that's too small for flight. What do you do?Kill her and sell the eggs. 29. Inside a dungeon, you come across what appears to be an adolescent Erinyes devil, chained to a dungeon wall and apparently having been used as a sex toy. She glares at you with hatred as you enter. What do you do?Make her my slave and train her.When she reaches adulthood she can take her place as a consort with the vampire.My harem is starting to get exotic.All consorts should have useful skills in battle,magic or stealth. 31.A king who owes you a favor for recovering his lienage's crown asks you another small favor. His princess daughter becomes hostile whenever anyone mentions her bethrothal to a prince. After a few minutes of talking to her as simply a friend, it's obvious to you (though not to her) that she is deeply like's women better than men. What do you do? Proper spells can change such things and having a princess as a covert lover has it's advantages. 7, 8, 10, and 11 would bring out snide comments from jagggar about men being shallow. Not to say that she isn't shallow at times, but she's not claiming she isn't a hypocrit. 22: YAY!!! 25 is an offense against jagggar's motherly instincts. Would get major glare at least once. 29 could be the reason jagggar'd add you a hit list. Random kinkiness: Fun. Slavery like that: DIE MALE DIE!!! Not sure on the reaction to 31. Would have to be more specific.
grimclaw 02-06-05, 12:53 AM	29-she's a fiend you would have to enslave her just to keep her in line.eventually you could come to some sort of arrangement,devils being more practical than demons.To be a consort though would imply a certain amount of freedom(he's not into the force thing,finds it repulsive).As I said consorts for him are in fact cohorts and lovers.That implies mutual loyalty,within reason she is a fiend after all. 31-Spells can change ones thoughts and desires.(A certain high level spell in the vile book of darkness-mind rape-I dislike the name though.)Use it to get her to have at least some desire for her intended.As she'll probably have to marry him wether she wants to or not.Also as has been stated it's a political marriage she can find her phisical and emotional needs met elsewhere.And as she now likes men as well as women,grimclaw is in like flint(Obscure old tv reference) As for grimclaw watching Jagggar.She's female,he looks but he's not disrespectful about it.He actually enjoys the whole female not just the physical.He just cant love.So are you officially in the guild for the wars?I like the mercanary angle for us.It gives us a reason to be everywhere and puts us in a position to take advantage of opportunity as it presents itself. Do we have a member list yet?
jagggar 02-06-05, 01:10 AM	There's always the option of letting her go with the stipulation of not coming after you. . . Mindrape's one of the reasons I've kind of considered getting BoVD every now and then. I could think of a worse name for it though, using different words that mean kinda the same thing. . . She's female,he looks but he's not disrespectful about it. :rofl: Of course, she hasn't even removed her helm yet. She could be butt-ugly. Only actual "In Game" clue that she's female is that the armor she wears has curves (and possibly the voice too). jagggar'll probably toss the idea around a bit first. And she can't be offical until the rules for using d20 Modern/Future material are offical. No memberlist as of yet that I know of.
Tenzhi 02-06-05, 01:48 AM	Name: Tenzhi Age: Sideways 8 Race: Zhi Lung Dragon Gender: M Background (Childhood, etcetera): Too much to list. It begins somewhere around the birth of the multiverse and ends somewhere around the death of the multiverse right before it begins again. 1: You are on a dark street in a city late at night, and find a sackful of silver. There is nobody at all in sight. (If you're truely paranoid, magical or physical scoping of the area also reveals no-one.) What do you do? It's abandoned loot which makes it fair salvage, so I pocket it for later use. Not that I'm wanting for money, but such currency is less easy to trace back to me and can be used to start trouble; or end it. 2: You have returned to your hometown/base of operations/city from a long and ardous trek. Your feet hurt, you're probably beaten up some, and you have a purse full of recovered loot. What is the first thing you do? It's not often that I trek on foot in search of adventure and loot these days, but after such a return I would rest my weary bones whilst considering how best to distribute my loot to most efficiently cause any given elf trouble. 3: Your mentor is ill and has bade you come to her/his side before she/he dies. You are far away, and in the middle of a very importent trip, but you can make it to her/his side if you drop everything and go immideately. What do you do? I don't have a mentor, but hypothetically speaking I would send an avatar if possible. Barring that I would either halt their illness until it was convenient for me to meet them or, in the absolute worst case scenario, I would drop what I was doing to go to their side. 4: The party bard is whistling a tune you hate. What do you do? First I ask him to change his tune. If that doesn't work I cast a permanent silence on him to teach him a lesson. 5: Another adventurer in your party has lain claim to an object you covet. What do you do? Depends upon how I feel about the individual laying claim to the object and how immediate my need of the object is. If it is a friend and the object isn't immediately needed I will be happy to wait for their eventual death to take it myself. If it is a friend and the object is immediately needed I will render them unconscious and take it. If it is someone I don't care for I will simply take it and if they vie with me over it I will have no compunctions about incapacitating or killing them if necessary. 6: Your Familar/Animal Companion/Trusty steed/faithful old dog has been killed by one of your party members who, while under the influence of a blind spell, accidently filled it full of arrows thinking it was a monster. What do you do? (Once you get up off the ground, if it was a familar.) I resurrect the critter and cast no blame on the blinded party member. 7: While in a city, a comely bar wench/waiter has caught your eye. What do you do? I am generally above such worldly concerns. However, if I'm currently working on a scheme that relies on me creating offspring, I will do what it takes to bring that scheme to fruition - even if it means relying on magic or force. 8: The princess of a kingdom that owes you favor looks up to you as a mentor, and wishes to run away from home to follow in your footsteps. She makes this known to you. What do you do? Let her try. I may surreptitiously help her along the way if I feel she's important to my plans. 9: While in a tavern, a drunken dwarf insults your mother's honor. What do you do? I inform him that I've got no mother of my own, though I've borrowed his once or twice. A good portion of the time in such an occasion, after the ensuing brawl and a peacemaking round of drinks, one ends up with good dwarven friends. Dwarven friends are very reliable and loyal. 10: The party wizard wants to take downtime in a city so he can hit the stacks at the library. The other two in the party disagree, and want to hit the trail again. What do you do? I remain aloof and unconcerned with the outcome. If the party decides to split up then so be it. I doubt that I would choose to stay with the wizard, as I find book-learned magic tiresome. 11: A noble wants you to marry his son/daughter. Said son/daughter is ugly becuase she/he mother was mated with a troll, who's offspring mated with an ogre. What do you do? The Elf-Bane marries no one. He is also completely unconcerned with nobility aside from their usefulness as pawns. 12: You stand over a vampress who's castle your party snuck into and ambushed. She is begging for mercy, as the Cleric raises the stake. What do you do? It depends. If the vampiress was terrorizing the countryside I would care less about the outcome. If she wasn't, I would think it a bit rude to have snuck into her castle in the first place, but whether the Cleric kills it or not is his business. 13: War has broken out between your kingdom and the kingdom of another party member. He intends to answer the rallying call from his Liege, and you know full well the danger this person, who is a skilled warrior, could pose to your kingdom. What do you do? I would owe no allegiance to a kingdom, for one. But hypothetically, if the situation arose I would incapacitate the other party member. The lengths I would go to (i.e. whether I would outright kill them or not) depend upon my relationship with said member in much the same way as the dispute over the magic item. 14: A lonely red dragoness has you cornered, with the rest of your companions fled. She offers you your life, if you will indulge her in the bed. What do you do? Not that I would ever be so-cornered, but if it happened I would have no compunctions against sowing my own draconic seed. I would be sure to watch the offspring of such a union as their exploits would likely prove entertaining. 15: You are unable to read a book, but have been told it's contents contain a listing of your family's ancient burial sites, possibly which hold great treasure. The party wizard tells you it contains no such information. What do you do? If I couldn't read it, the party wizard couldn't read it. Also, I know where my "family" lies already. 16: The party barbarian drank all of his ale, and then drank yours without asking. What do you do? Chide him about the dangers of doing such rash things as he slowly dies from the poison I put into my drinks. If I'm in a good mood I might cure the poison, if I'm in a bad mood I might slow it's progress. 17: Your magic/warrior/monk academy/monestary/place of learning has heard of your exploits and requested you return there for a year to teach. What do you do? The multi-verse is my place of learning, and I am always teaching there. 18: You've been framed for a murder you had reason, opportunity and ability to commit. But you didn't do it. What did you do? I will endeavor to find the person that framed me whilst showing utter disregard for the local law enforcement. 19: Your God/dess has been destroyed, and you know of this fact. What do you do? I would cease to exist, along with the rest of the multi-verse. 20: You have the potential for wealth beyond measure at your fingertips. the catch is you have to kill the rest of your party in their sleep. What do you do? It again depends upon my relationship with the rest of the party. 21:Your skill at fencing/magic has become legend. Then someone challenges you to a duel to the death. What do you do? Depending upon how they approach me I'll either accept the duel and humiliate them, accept the duel and kill them honorably, or refuse the duel because they are completely unworthy of my time. 22: Years ago, your King allowed your hometown to be overrun by an invading horde of orcs, because he needed soldiers to secure his family's trade routes, leading to the serial rape and murder of your mother, which you were forced to watch from a hiding spot. Now, you have learned of an attempt on his life. What do you do? A highly improbable situation for me to be in, with too many variables to factor in for me to even address it hypothetically. 23: An orcish horde has gathered under the leader of one powerful chieftan, and your party has been captured and taken before him. He expresses a desire to have your party take her to the King of your nation, with whom he wishes to negotiate safe passage through his lands for the purposes of leaving this continent by sea to wage war on an orc kingdom across said sea. Orcs have no history of making peaceful contacts with other races. What do you do? If I was in such a situation, I would have made sure the nation I was in was elvish and I would agree to the orc's wishes. Because doing so would almost certainly cause trouble with the elves. 24. You're tired and weary, on the last leg of a long trip to get to a city. The food ran out about two days ago, and you're hungry. Then you come across a farmer on the road, shaking his head and working to try an put his crop of hay back on his cart, which it fell off of. What do you do? I generally prefer to eat jewels or precious metal, but I will settle for hay, a wooden cart, or even a farmer (especially an elven farmer). 25. When you go to hunt down an adult red dragon that attacked a town, for reasons unknown, she flees her horde room. When you corner her, she's standing protectively over a clutch of quivering eggs, about to hatch any second. She and you both know that your group is outfitted with magic that will make her breath ineffective, the and you're well-armed to defeat her, especially in this room that's too small for flight. What do you do? Negotiate for reparations to the town and for the red dragon to leave the area. I would settle for the dragon just leaving the area, as the town is less important. 26. Along the road, you encounter a kobold that looks injured - he's unconcious, bleeding slowly from an arrow wound. What do you do? I heal him. My own minions are kobolds of a sort. I have a soft spot for them. 27. When you divide the treasure, you correctly identify what everyone else thinks are silver coins as platinum. What do you do? I inform the party that they're morons and that the coins are platinum. If they don't believe me I'll pocket them as potential trailmix. 28. When you divide the treasure, you correctly identify what everyone else thinks are platinum coins as silver. What do you do? Let the fools try to spend them as platinum. 29. Inside a dungeon, you come across what appears to be an adolescent Erinyes devil, chained to a dungeon wall and apparently having been used as a sex toy. She glares at you with hatred as you enter. What do you do? I banish her back to her home plane (after questioning her, if appropriate). 30. When you're in a position to do off a demon king who's been responsible for countless death and suffering, he swears he'll make you all princes and princesses, Lords and Ladies among mere mortals, with an immortal lifespan and wealthy beyond the dreams of kings, if you spare his life. What do you do? Such offers are meaningless to me, but I"ll stand idly by and watch to see how the party responds to his offer. Regardless of how they respond I may kill the demon anyway or at least banish him to his home plane. 31.A king who owes you a favor for recovering his lienage's crown asks you another small favor. His princess daughter becomes hostile whenever anyone mentions her bethrothal to a prince. After a few minutes of talking to her as simply a friend, it's obvious to you (though not to her) that she is deeply like's women better than men. What do you do? I change her into a prince.
grimclaw 02-06-05, 01:53 AM	Jagggar two points. 1-Letting her go would be wasting a valuable resource.(Besides,despite the loner persona he puts up he really likes being around people and he has a soft spot for outcasts.He's also rather protective of them.The fact that shes an adolescent would bring out an even stronger protectiveness,just disguised as callousness.Did I mention the person responsable for her condition would die a screaming death? 2-Curves and a feminine voice are plenty of encouragement.(Besides ugly girls need love to :D ) I think we need a guild charter or something.A common purpose for us to work on when we arent pursuing our own selfish goals.Or maybe we're all really independants who banded togather to avoid being swallowed up by the other guilds.In wich case we're more of a loose alliance than an actual guild.
jagggar 02-06-05, 02:01 AM	No. Things are starting to look up because of that. But you have standards. . . jagggar herself would likely be of the very, very loose alliance sort. I wonder to a degree if there should be a seperate guild for L and C or not.
grimclaw 02-06-05, 02:23 AM	Standards?Oh crap where did those come from? :D In that case I'll just have to offer Jagggar friendship and alliance when our purposes dont cross each other.At least until she removes the helmet :D After all she has to eat sometimes. I'm leaning toward the alliance angle myself.I think as a group we'll probably end up too different to function as a single goal oriented guild.I wasnt going to join any guilds until this one popped up.I think Thasis should push the guild wars merc. angle.Maybe the guild could act as a real guild,by that I mean as a place for mercs to be offered work assignments or something of that nature.Except assasinations of course then we'd have the assasins guild annoyed at us. Maybe a couple of guild rules like members dont fight one another or something like that.
jagggar 02-06-05, 02:30 AM	Probably from the "Said daughter is ugly becuase she/he mother was mated with a troll, who's offspring mated with an ogre" question. friendship *cracks up* What the? You're not supposed to be in character now! *laughs harder* I see a semi-merc thing working. Oh, sure, we'll work for you, umm, since you're so powerful, could we just invite all the guys for a cup of tea at your place? Wait! What do you mean no fighting between members?
grimclaw 02-06-05, 02:42 AM	Evey character needs a friend or two.And I'm always at least partly in character.I've been working with one variation or another of grimclaw since I first starting having an interest in fantasy fiction let alone rpg's.He's probably older than most of the players here.God that makes me feel ancient. Your probably right about the fighting part,forget I mentioned it. I think grimclaws due for a rebuild anyway before the games get going.Havent decided what variation to go for though.
jagggar 02-06-05, 02:52 AM	Pbht. Friends. They're very useful when you feel like you need your back stabbed. Heh. Yay for feeling old! Not really. . . jagggar's been around for about four years, thought she got killed once, but she came back. Never had stats before so that's an awkward thing for her. I plan on eventually building her as epic, gestalt, DvR 1+, but that's sort of another story.
grimclaw 02-06-05, 03:04 AM	I resent the insinuation that I would stab you in the back.I would stab you in the front if I felt the need to stab. Technically grimclaw is already built as the character is just an avatar trying to gain enough power to release the real grimclaw.Though the real grimclaw is the mind of the avatar,its not an independant being just a body for him to move around in. the real grimclaw is a fighter 10/ranger 1/sorcerer 4/spellsword 10/mage killer 10. I designed him as a slayer of magic users.maybe I'll just leave him as is I'm not sure.Been a long day,I started the morning in houston tx at midnight and drove all the way home to illinois and havent went to bed yet so my brains a little fuzzy right now.Damn this glowing box that consumes my life.
jagggar 02-06-05, 03:14 AM	I would stab you however it best made you dead if that was my purpose in stabbing you. Okay, maybe she's the one that needs the meds. . . The closest jagggar has come to the d20 system previously was when she took over various parts of the Forgotten Realms in my mind and in a free-form rpg between me and a friend. (And I have just realized that she could technically be considered both the grandmother and great-great-great-grandmother of the half-dragon I'm considering for the GoPG. The grandmother is less true because that's if you count his "adoptive father".) I'm not totally sure what I'd do for jagggar. She's dedicated hero 5/dimensional ranger 10 for this. Far as the whole power thing goes, I kind of imagine it as you enter the guildhouse, Tyranor specificly, and ZAP!!! You're down to level 15 in power. That's a long drive, how many hours is that?
grimclaw 02-06-05, 03:37 AM	14 hrs.technically it cant be done in a big truck(we can only drive 11 hrs and then we have to take a 10 hr break.)I suppose there is a reason truck drivers call thier log books ,comic books.According to mine I'll get home in about an hour.For the safety concious ,please note I did stop and take a short nap.I dont drive when I am drowsy.So if a big blue freightliner passed you and was weaving over the line it wasnt me. Grimclaws history is that he is locked away in his tower by the gods but managed to slip a bit of his essense thru the barrier thus creating the avatar.When it gains enough levels to match the real grimclaw then he can break the barrier(since it doesnt serve a purpose at that point.) I like the power zap idea.I keep picturing Elminster arriving in Tyranor and realizing he is now a low level mageling(less than 15 when you count his ecl for being a chosen.) I've been filling up a notebook with ideas for a Tyranor setting independent of the guild wars,hopefully in a week or two I'll start a thread for it and get some outside ideas.I've added an undercity and a underwater portion as well and I am exploring a house based system,with eachhouse being a part of a senate and "guilds that are alliances and political parties.I'm getting ideas faster than I can get them organized so it may take a little while. YAWNNN!I really need some sleep.maybe in a bit.
jagggar 02-06-05, 03:45 AM	Don't you just love the word techincally? Had my liscence for about a year. (Yay for making people feel old!) Whenever I want to go home, it's about a three hour drive. Those I can do. Once upon a time, my mom made me drive up to my cousin's wedding and drive back the same day (okay, so I wanted to be back the same day, but still). Three hour drive one way. I told my mom I was tired and that's why I never drove back from gran'ma's if I was the one driving up. Well, on the way back, we had a little trouble staying on the road. . . Glad my best friend was there, thought process was: "AAH! Must keep her alive!" Naps are nice. Sleep is too. Maybe we should both stop and go to sleep. . .
grimclaw 02-06-05, 03:52 AM	Good idea. Good night Jagggar see you late....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
jagggar 02-06-05, 09:30 AM	Good morning. Seriously, that two hour nap I had at 7 (PM), wonderful.
grimclaw 02-06-05, 09:36 AM	Good morning.You know of course that we both are seriously addicted to the net?
jagggar 02-06-05, 09:40 AM	The first step to getting help is admitting that you have a problem. I'm glad you're able to do that, but you need to be able to do it without projecting, cause I'M NOT AN ADDICT!!!! *clings to monitor and mouse with a deathgrip*
grimclaw 02-06-05, 10:03 AM	It's ok,just put down the mouse.It's a nice day outside.You remember outside dont you?The sun and sky,trees,bunny rabbits,brain sucking zombies and..ooh I'm not going out there either. :D
jagggar 02-06-05, 10:09 AM	"I see the light, and it BURNS!!!" No, really, think I might have Light Blindness. Bunnies? Mmmm. . . hungry. . . No, really, I didn't mean to drop that vial. . .
grimclaw 02-06-05, 10:15 AM	:confused: :rofl:
jagggar 02-06-05, 10:19 AM	I am confused as to what you are confused about.
grimclaw 02-06-05, 12:29 PM	That makes two of us. :D
redhase 02-06-05, 03:44 PM	There seems to be something happening at the HeF, a meeting of sorts all guilds are invited. All the guilds can bring thier colored threads and dance around the pole. singing and danceing are free; no ale or grog being served though. so it's a Bring your own boose. everone is invited, so lets go party and dance around the pole. carnalval everone
jagggar 02-06-05, 04:57 PM	"Carnival, eh? Those happen to be quite fun," jagggar tilted her head as she spoke, "particularly the more carnal of them." She put her arms behind her, and after a moment, a portal opened up behind her to the appointed meeting grounds. "I may see you later." she said as the portal closed, having backed through it. I've just realized thow expressive the face is. Her helm might need to come off soon.
grimclaw 02-06-05, 05:05 PM	Since Grimclaw always wears a blank silver mask"You show me yours and I'll show you mine." :eek: :D
jagggar 02-06-05, 05:08 PM	Since Grimclaw always wears a blank silver mask"You show me yours and I'll show you mine." :eek: :D :eek: I wonder how long it is until jagggar and grimclaw :pint: Make everyone go :OMG! Because of something that should've been :censored: :angelhide
grimclaw 02-06-05, 05:20 PM	:eek: :embarrass :lightbulb :dancin: :schemes: censored materials should always use the time honored fade to black technique.
jagggar 02-06-05, 05:25 PM	What? Not the closet technique?* Why not fade to white ever? *'Nother message board I go to, don't know how often I was in the closet. People were always putting video cameras in there. Dunno why. I don't know why, didn't know you could make that much money on people playing regular poker.
grimclaw 02-06-05, 07:40 PM	Why not fade to white?hmmmm. ah! Tradition thats why.Kids these days have no respect for tradition.Why in my day.........Please grampa not now,go watch tv I think Matlock is on.(Could this be proof of my pending senility?) Well,except for the occasional appearance by Tenzhi we seem to be all alone in here.Wanna play checkers till something comes up? :D or maybe darts?or poker or chess or uno or monopoly or nahhhhh.We're adventurers lets go kill a random monster or something.Or maybe beat up that drunk dwarf from the questionaire. :D fading to black(because it's tradition,dang it,now what channel was Matlock on?) closet technique?cameras?sounds :censored: :shocked:
jagggar 02-06-05, 07:48 PM	Well, jagggar has left to go to that meeting that the HEF is hosting. Might ask Sil about a new topic being started for it. HEF is HUGE. Much messyness.
grimclaw 02-06-05, 08:11 PM	Grimclaw is already there as well.Wich is strange considering that I'm still working on a new incarnation of him for the wars. Much messyness indeed.
jagggar 02-06-05, 08:16 PM	Well, far as I'm concerned, as long as there's no sudden major physical change, there's no problem. I mean if grimclaw suddenly became a rooster, uhh, I'd be concerned. On the other hand, few if any have been offically approved yet.
grimclaw 02-06-05, 08:25 PM	If Grimclaw suddenly became a rooster I'd be concerned.No he will remain physically the same I'm just considering class and levels as I havent set them in stone just yet.
jagggar 02-06-05, 08:35 PM	It's rather sad when a topic gets this, umm, dull. . . I wonder if there will ever be any more philosophical debate ever again, or did we totally break the atmosphere?
grimclaw 02-06-05, 08:47 PM	they'll be back,it's just anticipation for the kick-off of the wars i think. No I doubt we ruined the atmosphere just raised some eyebrows.
jagggar 02-06-05, 08:49 PM	Yeah, yeah, I really do wonder what anyone who reads this is gunna start thinking. . . Think I'm gunna go hang with the other people who don't watch the Superbowl for a while.
ezeek24 02-06-05, 11:27 PM	tell me about guild
grimclaw 02-07-05, 12:56 AM	The guild is mostly for those characters who dont fit in the other guilds.I'm the greedy mercenary,jagggars the somewhat pshycotic mercenary(i think).Some others show up to debate philosophy.We havent really settled on a standard dogma wich is good I think.
jagggar 02-07-05, 01:07 AM	jagggars the somewhat pshycotic mercenary(i think). :w00t:
Lady Rolindin 02-07-05, 01:24 AM	grimclaw The guild is mostly for those characters who dont fit in the other guilds.I'm the greedy mercenary,jagggars the somewhat pshycotic mercenary(i think).Some others show up to debate philosophy.We havent really settled on a standard dogma wich is good I think. So a question that comes to my mind is; how do the guilds deal with a charater that is crazy evil, to me crazy evil is inbetween chaotic and lawful with bits of both. its seems to me that this kind of charater would not fit in any guild, just be a guild to thier self. the charater I talk about the person based them off the Joker from batman comis and the books. Do some of you even think that a charater can be crazy evil like the joker or does it still fit in choatic evil. to me it's seems that their is a crazy evil and they are dangeruos, and any guild that has them in it is in trouble. we do have a person this type of charater based off the joker and I keep mine away as far as possible.
jagggar 02-07-05, 01:32 AM	I'd say that'd depend on what the DM rules about mental state affecting alignment. Some say insane means Chaotic Neutral, which is probaby a bad move if you plan on avoiding Chaotic Stupid characters. Some say insane means True Neutral because the person isn't capable of making alignment affecting decisons properly. Some might say that an insane character has the same alignment they'd have if they were sane. To some degree, a Good character who's going the martyr route is insane.
grimclaw 02-07-05, 01:34 AM	You must mean the Chaotic Evil Thayan who is off her rocker. :D I dont really hold with the idea that insanity changes your morals,maybe your perceptions but not your morals.So she is insane but still chaotic evil.Similarly a Lawful Good person who was insane might be a murderer because he percieved his victims as evil.At heart he is still Lawful Good because he truly believes he has a just cause. (IC) As for you staying away from her,pay me the right amount and I'll kill her for you.Open combat,I dont do the stealth assasin thing,they have thier own guild. Think about it,its not evil just practical,and think of all the innocents you would save.
Lady Rolindin 02-07-05, 02:12 AM	grimclaw You must mean the Chaotic Evil Thayan who is off her rocker. Thats the one! no mistake about it. the charater proublaby had her head hit to many times as a child. and now wishes to to pay everone back for something like that or simular events. It does seem that the crazy choatic evil Thayen is a proublem too all, I nor my charator would have no proublem with dealing with the proublem. the thayen is intelligent and been playing already. we coul dtalk by other means. I do believe most of you know that we are talking about redhase charater, what a evil crazy one. to me it still seems that they could still slip inbetween choatic and lawful it s a hard call on that one, she could be choatic evil that's insane, or sometimes lawful evil at times also with interaction that happen to my charater by her. maybe thier is a crazy evil just by itself. could be. :confused:
grimclaw 02-07-05, 02:23 AM	Most likely the evil drove her crazy and the chaos didnt help,especially if she also had the occasional lawful tendancy.Neutral evil is just self interest without moral restrictions so that couldnt be crazy evil I suppose. lets see unusual alignment types- chaotic stupid crazy evil ignorant good stubborn lawful appathetic neutral whenever you decide to have her eliminated send me a message and we'll work out a price.While I am a mercenary,once I'm bought I do the job regardless of counteroffers.Proffesional pride you know.
redhase 02-07-05, 06:45 PM	to her all of you are an ends to a means, and if you get in her way she will torture you and kill you or she will just kill you first. you can't blame a nice thayen girl for being the way she is, she had her parents bring her captured slaves and she would play with them, torture them then cut thier heads off, then cut opens their body to see what inside one. nothing a normal parent woun not do. turtore slaves, belittle them, make fun of the lower classes, even whip some of them. so much fun, how much fun can a thayen girl have. going out and watching the new slaves being broke in, then slave clooars put on them fun fun fun. barbarians are suck cry babies when made slave and some of them are just plain animalist in thier ways. the do make good pit fighters for games, train them right and you can make money, lots of money on them. you always have to keep slave collars on them they seem to go beserke some times and go into a rage and they have to be handled. crazy no My charater thinks that all of you are crazy and don't even try to understand how great a socity Thay is and how powerful they are, Thay the home of the only sane one's in the realms. All the rest will fall under Thay's power. Crazy no, it must be the rest of you is what my chartater would say to you.
Tenzhi 02-09-05, 01:20 AM	Thayans aren't crazy. Like the drow, they are a pathetic race built, cultivated, and ruled by a powerful being. Their society is purposely created to keep them at each others' throats so they don't turn their collective attention towards getting out from under the thumb of their particular despot, whilst simultaneously allowing said despot to easily use them to do his bidding. And also like the drow, they are led to believe in how great they are despite their lack of freedom and the role they play as simple tools. It's a sad state of affairs, but there's not much you can do about it.
knightowl_the_omnipotent 02-19-05, 02:00 AM	May i join.
knightowl_the_omnipotent 02-19-05, 02:03 AM	logic is a game the thinking man plays never the less. :P
jagggar 02-19-05, 02:10 AM	May i join. Of course.
knightowl_the_omnipotent 02-19-05, 12:09 PM	thanx a plenty so whatz the discussions about
knightowl_the_omnipotent 02-19-05, 12:11 PM	:cool: thanx a plenty so whatz the discussions about
thasis 02-19-05, 12:16 PM	I'm actualy the official leader of this guild and yes you may join. Currently the topic died and I stopped keeping track since I bumped this guild. We could start another topic though.
jagggar 02-19-05, 12:48 PM	Hmm, not yet. I'd say wait till we get the new rules up. And perhaps Law and Chaos could play a bigger part, so maybe we should decide about that first too.
jagggar 02-23-05, 12:13 PM	[ :bump: ]Okay, I've got a question: For the IFGW should Law and Chaos have their own guilds? I was gunna have two, then the philosophical one escaped me. Hmmm. . . Second question: Anyone have a good philosophical question we could discuss for a while?[/ :bump: ]
Cazic 03-13-05, 07:16 PM	:bump:
Dyne 03-13-05, 07:36 PM	[ :bump: ]Okay, I've got a question: For the IFGW should Law and Chaos have their own guilds? I was gunna have two, then the philosophical one escaped me. Hmmm. . . Second question: Anyone have a good philosophical question we could discuss for a while?[/ :bump: ] I believe Law and Chaos already have their own guilds. I could be wrong, though. Thasis would know.
Cazic 03-15-05, 03:53 AM	:bump:
Cazic 03-17-05, 12:40 AM	:behold:
Cazic 03-17-05, 12:57 PM	:88E:
Cazic 03-18-05, 09:52 AM	This is just great. GoPG is Dead, GoUE is dead, and now GoN is dead. What are we not going to have any alignment guilds now? This just isn't right. :allalone: and of course random smilie :tiphat:
jagggar 03-18-05, 10:02 AM	Actually, we're scraping the entire concept of guilds in favor of handing out flowers and tying them to sword blades. Just calm down. You don't need to bump everything. We're all getting impatient about the rules. Dyne's done a run through of everything he thinks needs to be changed about them. And yes, as he said in Meta, it's a lot of emails. Anyway, once the rules are off to the WizO's, I expect a bit more activity.
Cazic 03-19-05, 12:40 PM	Great we are all becoming a bunch of hippies. :D
Cazic 03-24-05, 07:04 PM	Stupid tree huggers. :bump:
Dyne 03-24-05, 10:57 PM	Actually, we're scraping the entire concept of guilds in favor of handing out flowers and tying them to sword blades. Just calm down. You don't need to bump everything. We're all getting impatient about the rules. Dyne's done a run through of everything he thinks needs to be changed about them. And yes, as he said in Meta, it's a lot of emails. Anyway, once the rules are off to the WizO's, I expect a bit more activity. :D And proud of it! *Pulls out a steel whiffle bat* :D
Cazic 03-25-05, 12:10 AM	*takes the bat* No! Bad Dyne! Bad! No soup for you. :P
Dyne 03-25-05, 12:29 AM	*Takes the bat back* I was only going to use it on the rule document. Been hacking away at KB's resources rules. ;)
Cazic 03-26-05, 07:55 PM	*Takes the bat back* I was only going to use it on the rule document. Been hacking away at KB's resources rules. ;) Oh. Ok then. Continue. :)
Dyne 03-26-05, 08:19 PM	:devil: *Whacks Cazic with the bat* Give me the soup!
Cazic 03-26-05, 09:14 PM	:devil: *Whacks Cazic with the bat* Give me the soup! Never! It mine now! Mwa ha ha ha ha! *starts gulping down the soup*
Master_of_Flames 03-26-05, 09:54 PM	just the guild for me. but 1 thing, do you accept elves who have a tendency to snap and go on a killing spree?
Cazic 03-26-05, 10:12 PM	just the guild for me. but 1 thing, do you accept elves who have a tendency to snap and go on a killing spree? That sound more of a evil type thing than a neutral thing. You might wnat to check out the evil Foundations. here are a few Guild of Ultimate Evil (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=240186&page=35&pp=30) Shadow's Breath and Blade (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=367381&page=35&pp=30) and this guild is neutral Raizer Mercanary Academy (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=401676) also if you lke the seas and the like then you should go here Seafare's Guild (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=5760290#post5760290) There are many guilds you can join and you can have a PC in more than one guild you just can't have more than one PC in the same guild.
Master_of_Flames 03-26-05, 10:23 PM	my character would have been CG except for that one quirk. when he doesnt snap and turn into a bloodthirsty killer, he protects anyone that needs help. *all of a sudden, his eyes roll back and he starts laughing maniacly* time..to...die. time..to...die. time..to...die. die..die..die... *draws out longsword and starts striking down random commoners*
Cazic 03-27-05, 09:13 AM	You are just making my point for me. :P
Solmund 03-27-05, 10:43 AM	the academy is neutal cazic, not evil. it accepts evil, good, and neutral students, as long as there are no problems. please make the changes in your post, or the guild of neutrality will find itself undersiege.
Cazic 03-27-05, 05:13 PM	the academy is neutal cazic, not evil. it accepts evil, good, and neutral students, as long as there are no problems. please make the changes in your post, or the guild of neutrality will find itself undersiege. Edit? Edit what? :confused: I dont see anything wrong with the post. :rolleye2: What are you talking about? :smirk: Are you seeing things again? :crazy:
Master_of_Flames 03-27-05, 09:30 PM	*suts apart the sign saying "there are no edits made here"* this one. don't mess with an elf that has improved crit for his longword and the vorpal enhancment. ;) otherwise someones going to be less one head.
jagggar 03-31-05, 12:37 AM	Woah, woah, woah. Cazic does not represent the opinion of the Guild of Neutrality. Hmm. . . On topicy stuff: Someone give me some tips on playing True Neutral chracters that aren't the "balance type" so I don't immeadiately go apathetic on the party's backside?
Cazic 03-31-05, 08:42 AM	Woah, woah, woah. Cazic does not represent the opinion of the Guild of Neutrality. Well no one is talking so i had to step up to the plate as it were. Hmm. . . On topicy stuff: Someone give me some tips on playing True Neutral chracters that aren't the "balance type" so I don't immeadiately go apathetic on the party's backside? if you are going to be TN you cant care about anything basicly. That is how most TNs are.
Dyne 04-02-05, 02:06 PM	*suts apart the sign saying "there are no edits made here"* this one. don't mess with an elf that has improved crit for his longword and the vorpal enhancment. ;) otherwise someones going to be less one head. In 3.5, Improved Critical doesn't do anything for Vorpal, because Vorpal now only works on a natural 20 (regardless of the critical threat range of the weapon).
Dyne 04-02-05, 02:08 PM	Woah, woah, woah. Cazic does not represent the opinion of the Guild of Neutrality. Hmm. . . On topicy stuff: Someone give me some tips on playing True Neutral chracters that aren't the "balance type" so I don't immeadiately go apathetic on the party's backside? A person who simply doesn't give a damn. This is how I picture a Neutral character, one who doesn't really focus on either Good or Evil, who's more of a realist, and who usually focuses more on himself than others (except for friends), but usually still favors Good slightly over Evil simply because Good is more likely to serve his needs (and because Neutral characters are usually okay people who simply lack the drive to commit to Good). EDIT: if you are going to be TN you cant care about anything basicly. That is how most TNs are. It looks like Cazic beat me to it. In any case, it's not that Neutral characters don't care about anything (although some could be that way), it's just that they mostly care about themselves and their friends/family and are less likely to help out a stranger than a Good person. At least, that's how I think of them.
Cazic 04-09-05, 08:20 PM	[deleted] please forget this post ever excisted.
Master_of_Flames 08-29-05, 02:23 PM	ba-da-bump ba bump. come on people, there has to be atleast one nuetral character out there!