Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Laughing Hyena Velox 09-20-03, 10:19 AM	I think that gnolls are the best race ever! There's something great about a huge, hungry, armed hyena... Now, who wants to join the Gnoll Foundation? (just put "Gnoll Foundation Member no.###" in your sig)
Laughing Hyena Velox 09-20-03, 04:41 PM	Come on, doesn't anyone like gnolls around here?
Ojuice5001 09-20-03, 07:07 PM	I don't know about the 3.x gnoll (I play with a 3.0 PHB but have not upgraded my other books), but here's my problem with the 2nd edition gnoll: From the Complete Book of Humanoids Special Advantages: None 'Nuff said. Actually, though, I've been wondering, what's their favored class? Judging from what the 3.0 Player's Handbook says, it could be druid, ranger, or both.
Dowanroden 09-20-03, 07:17 PM	I even tried to get my DM to let me play one once but the attached ECL made it impossible to fit in a level 1 campaign. But then Savage Species came out and I was happy again. Gnolls are like kobolds, it's not what the race gives you but what you can give the race. Viv la gnoll!
Vargr BoarTusk 09-20-03, 09:04 PM	I tend to make my gnolls more true to hyena's and have the females be the larger stronger types usually acting as the fighters and barbarians with the smaller less aggressive males being rogues and rangers
Laughing Hyena Velox 09-20-03, 09:16 PM	Hyenas Forever! Anyways, is anyone going to join? If all the other races have foundations, why not gnolls?
Tenzhi 09-20-03, 09:20 PM	I prefer Flinds... have Flinds even been converted to 3E/3.5E yet? Noble Gnolls with nunchaku (or should I say Flind-bars) - beautiful concept.
Laughing Hyena Velox 09-20-03, 09:20 PM	I don't know about the 3.x gnoll (I play with a 3.0 PHB but have not upgraded my other books), but here's my problem with the 2nd edition gnoll: From the Complete Book of Humanoids quote:Special Advantages: None 'Nuff said. Actually, though, I've been wondering, what's their favored class? Judging from what the 3.0 Player's Handbook says, it could be druid, ranger, or both. Well, frankly, I never really understood 2nd Edition. Gnoll racial traits are as follows: Gnoll (3.0) +4 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma +1 natural armor Darkvision 60' Favored Class: Ranger
Silmarien Aldalome 09-20-03, 09:25 PM	I will be a regular poster - to help you along - so I will join. You are going to need persistence and resilience to keep this Foundation going. No-one thought the Half-Elven foundation would survive - who would have thought anyone was interested. Please post at the H/E Foundation - and I will post at your Foundation. Make it a mutual thing, and I will help you. Some suggestions - develop a task that keeps a collective focus. - start a procative discussion. - always answer your posters. - STAY faithful to the Foundation. Posters will abandon you if you aren't committed. You have a particular responsibility as a Thread Keeper - and believe me - it gets hairy on some days. - be prepared to 'discuss' things with a small corum of faithful posters - even one other poster. You will find that this changes in time - your worst enemy will be your own sense of 'losing faith' or 'getting embarrassed'. So KEEP YOUR FAITH. I'm WITH you. So - let us support each other. I'm IN - May your Foundation Ever Flourish....woops, I mean I like that flesh - it's good'n tender - I'm sick o Goblin meat! Sil-Gnoll-ian
Laughing Hyena Velox 09-20-03, 09:29 PM	All right, thanks for the advice. I'll post something in the H/E thread some time.
Silmarien Aldalome 09-20-03, 09:34 PM	Originally posted by Laughing Hyena Velox All right, thanks for the advice. I'll post something in the H/E thread some time. I'll be more likely to post here regularly if you celebrate our H/E community often - I forgot - you might want to try an "enemies" listing - they're not real enemies - just fun ones. Tenzhi is an Enemy of our Foundation - and an extremely valued poster - and Ai! A mortal enemy of us! For the Elf-Bane has fountains that run with Elven Blood! Your Servant Sil-Gnoll-ian
Laughing Hyena Velox 09-20-03, 09:35 PM	Current Gnoll Issues: Effective Character Levels (ECL): should gnolls really be ECL3, isn't that excessive? Why must WotC add an extra 2HD just to drive their ECL up?! The only really unbalancing thing that gnolls have is a high Strength, which isn't that much. Alignment: are gnolls really evil, or are they just very hungry? Sigs: If you really like gnolls (or flinds), show your appreciation with in your sig! The Gnoll's real-life cousin: the hyena! Check out http://hyena.g2gm.com/
Silmarien Aldalome 09-20-03, 09:44 PM	Originally posted by Laughing Hyena Velox Current Gnoll Issues: Effective Character Levels (ECL): should gnolls really be ECL3, isn't that excessive? Why must WotC add an extra 2HD just to drive their ECL up?! The only really unbalancing thing that gnolls have is a high Strength, which isn't that much. I don't think they should get ECL +2. Because I don't think Strength is that 'special'. CORE rules statement about strength is overdone. The table in the DM's guide - I forget the page, and can't be bothered looking it up - that weights Strength over, say Charisma - is unfounded. So, I don't think ECL +2 is justified. Especially in lieu of something like the Drow - who have similar ECL (I think it's +2) - but good god - look at all the Drow goodies for ECL +2 - what - and I don't think light sensitivity is much of a neg. Alignment: are gnolls really evil, or are they just very hungry? Just.....very......hungry....... The Gnoll's real-life cousin: the hyena! Check out http://hyena.g2gm.com/ :cool: Cheers Sil
Tenzhi 09-21-03, 12:26 AM	Originally posted by Laughing Hyena Velox Effective Character Levels (ECL): should gnolls really be ECL3, isn't that excessive? Why must WotC add an extra 2HD just to drive their ECL up?! The only really unbalancing thing that gnolls have is a high Strength, which isn't that much. Most of the ECLs/LAs are too high. In the case of by-the-book Gnolls, I would get rid of the LA and leave the racial HD for a total ECL of 2. The high Strength isn't that much and doesn't even really make up for being ECL 2 with no class abilities. So even with no LA, an ECL 2 Gnoll is at a slight disadvantage. Alignment: are gnolls really evil, or are they just very hungry? Interestingly enough, my most recent campaign is a mix between d20 Modern and DnD. It offers Gnolls as a PC race. I took away +2 Strength and the racial HD because their natural gluttony was catching up to them in this civilised world, causing them to grow fat and soft.
Kkat 09-21-03, 02:51 AM	I love gnolls. I'd join, but I don't really join foundations. I don't like to clutter my sig. I've made gnolls a PC race in my homebrew world. Granted, the gnolls in my world are jackel rather than hyena-based. Originally posted by Laughing Hyena Velox [B]Current Gnoll Issues: Effective Character Levels (ECL): should gnolls really be ECL3, isn't that excessive? That is ridiculously excessive. But then, WotC ECLs are always way over the top. Mostly due to the moronic way they impliment ECL. http://www.geocities.com/edymnionii/KkatRoll.txt Why must WotC add an extra 2HD just to drive their ECL up?! Because Gnolls have 2HD in the MM, and WotC has this idea that all monsters have to look like they do in the MM. I believe I mentioned moronic. http://www.geocities.com/edymnionii/KkatDozey.txt The only really unbalancing thing that gnolls have is a high Strength, which isn't that much. Not much at all. Unless, of course, you run a hack-n-slash game. Unfortunately, D&D is really, at it's heart, a hack-n-slash game. You can see it in the lame "strength is more important and valuable than anything" mentality that gave us the Half-Orc's stats. Some of us try to bolster the game up to be a roleplaying game. But it kicks and screams every inch of the way. Besides, a cumulative +2 to stats is not worth an ECL. It isn't even worth part of one. It is easily about as valuable as, say, the elven ability to detect secret doors. Alignment: are gnolls really evil, or are they just very hungry? In my games, gnolls are "usually lawful evil". Really, it depends on the DM. --Kkat
Kkat 09-21-03, 03:06 AM	My Gnolls are, of course, here. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=99630&perpage=30&pagenumber=1) --Kkat
Silmarien Aldalome 09-21-03, 05:04 AM	Effective Character Levels (ECL): should gnolls really be ECL3, isn't that excessive? That is ridiculously excessive. But then, WotC ECLs are always way over the top. Mostly due to the moronic way they impliment ECL. An over-the-top ECL provokes an over-the-top response. I'd go for just "excessive" minus the extra bits. But I take your point - and agree with you. Originally posted by Kkat Not much at all. Unless, of course, you run a hack-n-slash game. Unfortunately, D&D is really, at it's heart, a hack-n-slash game. You can see it in the lame "strength is more important and valuable than anything" mentality that gave us the Half-Orc's stats. yes - very! Hello - what is that? I've seen threads hundreds of posts long that explore alternatives to Hack-n-slash (e.g. 'spells-n-slash'). And, every time, ways emerge of weighting non-strength attributes with more 'ergs'. E.g. Saving throws (wis/dex/con - not strength); non-strength-based skills & feats; spell-progression advantages by way of wis/cha/int; and DC adjustments non-strength based. Some of us try to bolster the game up to be a roleplaying game. But it kicks and screams every inch of the way. And so it does "kick and scream". It's not always easy to engage players in the role playing voice (RPV). I use 'optimal threat'+'RP Rewards'+"Method Role-Play" as a DM to get the 'juices' going. Also, DM-selective attention to the best role-players. When a party 'comes-to-life' in the RPV it's a great experience for all concerned. Besides, a cumulative +2 to stats is not worth an ECL. It isn't even worth part of one. It is easily about as valuable as, say, the elven ability to detect secret doors. Un-Nerf the Gnoll! Silmarien
Laughing Hyena Velox 09-21-03, 09:32 AM	Most of the ECLs/LAs are too high. In the case of by-the-book Gnolls, I would get rid of the LA and leave the racial HD for a total ECL of 2. The high Strength isn't that much and doesn't even really make up for being ECL 2 with no class abilities. So even with no LA, an ECL 2 Gnoll is at a slight disadvantage. What's the point of racial HD? Gnolls would be better off with class levels only. I don't think they should get ECL +2. Because I don't think Strength is that 'special'. CORE rules statement about strength is overdone. The table in the DM's guide - I forget the page, and can't be bothered looking it up - that weights Strength over, say Charisma - is unfounded. Well, some abilites are more important that others, in some cases. Wisdom is good for will saves and awareness (Spot and Listen), making it important for all characters. Charisma is good for only a few skills, which aren't as versitile, and is good for mostly classes with Charisma based spells and abilities; other classes don't need it. Constitution is always important, because the nature of D&D is that you're going to be injured some time. And so it does "kick and scream". It's not always easy to engage players in the role playing voice (RPV). I use 'optimal threat'+'RP Rewards'+"Method Role-Play" as a DM to get the 'juices' going. Also, DM-selective attention to the best role-players. When a party 'comes-to-life' in the RPV it's a great experience for all concerned. It's another roleplaying vs. rollplaying thing... There is a way to combine roleplaying and hack-and-slash, if you think about it. A gnoll, in the midst of a battle, would seek and attack a vulnerable (injured, disarmed, tripped, etc.), like a predator. He/she would probably snack on the carcasses left over from the battle afterwards. About gnoll alignment; I think they should be CN. Predators are often misunderstood. In the case of gnolls, I tend to think of them as very much like hyenas (yes, I love hyenas); fierce towards their enemies and prey, but loyal and affectionate among their own clan.
Kkat 09-21-03, 07:11 PM	Originally posted by Laughing Hyena Velox Well, some abilites are more important that others, in some cases. But overall, they are equal. Charisma is good for only a few skills, which aren't as versitile, and is good for mostly classes with Charisma based spells and abilities; other classes don't need it. Hello? http://www.geocities.com/edymnionii/KkatBlink Tell me you're trying to be funny here.http://www.geocities.com/edymnionii/KkatSad It's another roleplaying vs. rollplaying thing... There is a way to combine roleplaying and hack-and-slash, if you think about it. A gnoll, in the midst of a battle, would seek and attack a vulnerable (injured, disarmed, tripped, etc.), like a predator. That's not combining roleplaying and rollplaying. That's combining rollplaying and tactics. I think maybe you need to learn what roleplaying is about. --Kkat (I suggest taking a theatre arts class.)
Silmarien Aldalome 09-21-03, 07:20 PM	Greetings Khat and Laughing Hyena! nice to c u Charisma is good for only a few skills, which aren't as versitile, and is good for mostly classes with Charisma based spells and abilities Core-rules wise - you gotta point. But, in real life, ain't it charisma that rocks-very - and gets people all sortsa goodies? I reckong (ozzie drawl) that charisma is still nerfed in 3.5 Rock-on-Role-Play Rewards - he cried ;) Cheers Sil
Laughing Hyena Velox 09-23-03, 04:12 PM	That's not combining roleplaying and rollplaying. That's combining rollplaying and tactics. Ok, that was a bad example, but my point is that D&D, being adventure and conflict oriented, will obviously involve combat of some sort. You can express your character through how you deal with that conflict, and that includes tailoring your tactics to your character's nature. Secondly, it's true that some abilites overshadow others. Don't blame me, tell WotC what you think. But this is besides the point. This thread is for gnoll-related discussion.
Laughing Hyena Velox 09-23-03, 04:32 PM	All right, back to the gnolls. The question of the day is, what are gnolls to you? I tend to think of gnolls as very much like hyenas, as fierce predators. The "hyenine gnolls" (my interpretation) are opportunistic, preying on the weak. They have a relatively loose hierarchy; while they have ranks and leaders, their social structure allows great individual freedom. They are also fiercely loyal to one another and will take risks to aid each other in conflict situations. So, that's my gnoll. I would like to hear everyone else's interpretations.
Silmarien Aldalome 09-23-03, 07:04 PM	Predatory creatures - with base impulses that come from their animal leanings. "Base" not meaning to convey insult - and certainly not cause to "judge" the gnoll. Creatures who "do their thing" are being as Nature made them. So, the gnoll's very substantial and large bite, sharp fangs, and brutal "nature" make them a creature to be feared by those without defences. However, the question about their social evolution - can they "evolve socially" (Nurture) and somehow integrate their beastly leanings into 'enlightenment' - I really don't know. I could speculate though. A Feline - un"nurtured" by a human is a very different creature to a tame domestic feline. Why? How does this transformation occur, and if a feline had more grey matter (as a Gnoll does) could they change their leanings, and develop culture, society, art and enlightened thought? Being an optimist, I say "yes". Another example is the Kanine "wild - domestic" distinction. And "man" was once far more "wild" in some ways than she is today. Cheers Laughing Hyena - do you have any discussion items for Gnoll Templates? Silmarien
Laughing Hyena Velox 09-24-03, 04:18 PM	Thank you for sharing your interpretation of the gnoll. I hope more posters will also share their opinion. As for gnoll templates, I really do prefer prestige classes. I was thinking something like a Hyena Warrior that allows the gnoll to move at hyena-speed, use its fangs as weapons without penalties, etc.
Silmarien Aldalome 09-24-03, 07:32 PM	Hey now, that sounds interesting - Gnoll-only PrC's! The Hyena speed could be focussed into a bonus attack per round - perhaps one past the normal limt of Fighting classes? Have you read the Drizzt thing - the super-fast Drow? Cheers Sil
Tenzhi 09-25-03, 03:41 AM	Originally posted by Laughing Hyena Velox What's the point of racial HD? Gnolls would be better off with class levels only. Well, racial HD also come with their own BAB, skill points, and feats even if they are a bit weaker than class levels... Essentially, it is just my opinion that a Gnoll with 1 class level should be that much harder to kill than a human with 1 class level. After all, Gnolls are nearly Large-sized critters. At no point should a puny dagger-wielding 1st level human commoner be a serious danger to a Gnoll at full health. Nor should a Gnoll with 1 class level be weaker than a common Gnoll.
Laughing Hyena Velox 09-25-03, 03:20 PM	Well, racial HD also come with their own BAB, skill points, and feats even if they are a bit weaker than class levels... Essentially, it is just my opinion that a Gnoll with 1 class level should be that much harder to kill than a human with 1 class level. After all, Gnolls are nearly Large-sized critters. Maybe so, but it makes playing a gnoll a major pain in low-level campaigns. Besides, classes represent training and experience in a paticular field, specialization or profession. I really can't believe that gnolls don't pick up any real skills until 3rd level; considering their predatory tendencies and conflict with other humanoids, I reckon they should all have a level of warrior or ranger by the time they're young adults. At no point should a puny dagger-wielding 1st level human commoner be a serious danger to a Gnoll at full health. Nor should a Gnoll with 1 class level be weaker than a common Gnoll. Still, if that were true, WoTC should have just stated that the average gnoll is 2nd level instead of 1st in the Organization entry of the MM, instead of stacking on extra HD. After all, they specify the levels of gnoll officers; in 3.0 and 3.5, there were gnoll lieutenants and sergeants, with high levels. Hey now, that sounds interesting - Gnoll-only PrC's! The Hyena speed could be focussed into a bonus attack per round - perhaps one past the normal limt of Fighting classes? I was thinking more like the Barbarian's fast movement, except that a high-level Hyena Warrior might eventually reach actual hyena speed (50'). But extra attacks are a good idea, too.
SmiloDan 09-25-03, 05:24 PM	Gnolls should have an ECL of +1 or +2, max. Yuan-ti Purebloods, which have 4 HD, poison, and alternate form, and psionics, are only +2!!!!
Laughing Hyena Velox 09-25-03, 06:19 PM	Good point. It seems that WotC really messed up the ECL system.
Tenzhi 09-26-03, 01:39 AM	Originally posted by Laughing Hyena Velox I really can't believe that gnolls don't pick up any real skills until 3rd level; They manage to garner some weapon skill, a few regular skills, and a feat. Still, if that were true, WoTC should have just stated that the average gnoll is 2nd level instead of 1st in the Organization entry of the MM Essentially they DO state that. A gnoll has 2 levels of Monstrous Humanoid - complete with the skills, BAB, saving throws, and feats that go along with it. Yuan-ti Purebloods, which have 4 HD, poison, and alternate form, and psionics, are only +2 +2 LA, which gives them a total ECL of 6 before class levels - much higher than Gnolls.
Demon Lightfoot 09-26-03, 04:40 AM	Originally posted by Tenzhi I prefer Flinds... have Flinds even been converted to 3E/3.5E yet? Noble Gnolls with nunchaku (or should I say Flind-bars) - beautiful concept. YES! I love Flinds! My players don't; (after getting the orcsnot knocked out of them) they've murdered several of them for their sweet sweet flind-bars.:( Then again, so have a few of my PCs.:smirk: One of the funniest thing that I've ever "seen" was a hobbit attempting to learn how to effectively use flind-bars; he bought a batch of cheap used/broken furniture, set it up on the Common and put on a less-than impressive display as he whaled away at with them (also horribly bruising himself with the infernal device) in an attempt to build his skill. Ah, memories... An aside: I don't believe in EL or ECL (but I do believe in a few other things; I believe in the soul, the :censored:, the :censored: :censored:, the small of a woman's back, that the 'Natural' 20 always hits and the 'Natural' 1 always misses, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of R.A. Salvatore are self-indulgent, overrated crap. I believe E. Gary Gygax acted alone. I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing plastic minis and diceless systems. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days. [Apologies to "Crash" Davis] :D ); if anyone wanted to play a gnoll or flind IMC, I'd let 'em...as long as they start out as immature 1st level PCs (one HD).
Laughing Hyena Velox 09-26-03, 12:24 PM	YES! I love Flinds! My players don't; (after getting the orcsnot knocked out of them) they've murdered several of them for their sweet sweet flind-bars. You should give them lots of XP penalties for that; the poor flinds... Essentially they DO state that. A gnoll has 2 levels of Monstrous Humanoid - complete with the skills, BAB, saving throws, and feats that go along with it. They get levels of humanoid, not monstrous, according to the SRD. And besides, the humanoid class really sucks.
Silmarien Aldalome 09-26-03, 08:55 PM	Originally posted by Demon Lightfoot An aside: I don't believe in EL or ECL (but I do believe in a few other things; I believe in the soul, the :censored:, the :censored: :censored:, the small of a woman's back, that the 'Natural' 20 always hits and the 'Natural' 1 always misses, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of R.A. :rofl: OMG! Salvatore are self-indulgent, overrated crap. I didn't find The Dark Elf Trilogy self-indulgent - but I didn't think it was the best prose I've read. I believe E. Gary Gygax acted alone. I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing plastic minis and diceless systems. :rofl: I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days. [Apologies to "Crash" Davis] :D ); if anyone wanted to play a gnoll or flind IMC, I'd let 'em...as long as they start out as immature 1st level PCs (one HD). :rofl: - you're on a mission - Gnolls help discover things about friends! Cheers Sil
Tenzhi 09-27-03, 02:43 AM	Originally posted by Laughing Hyena Velox They get levels of humanoid, not monstrous, according to the SRD. And besides, the humanoid class really sucks. Is it just humanoid? Ah well, it's still not all that bad - kind of like a Cleric without spells. I'd rather them start off with two levels of "humanoid" than be on the same level as a starting elf. Optionally, I might allow them to replace their last racial HD with a class level (seeing how 1 HD humanoids replace their last racial HD with a class level).
Laughing Hyena Velox 09-27-03, 11:38 AM	Is it just humanoid? Ah well, it's still not all that bad - kind of like a Cleric without spells. I'd rather them start off with two levels of "humanoid" than be on the same level as a starting elf. Optionally, I might allow them to replace their last racial HD with a class level (seeing how 1 HD humanoids replace their last racial HD with a class level). It's still a major problem for level 1 campaigns; according to WotC's new LA system a 2HD gnoll is the equivilent of a 3rd level standard character, for some reason.
Laughing Hyena Velox 09-27-03, 11:40 AM	Topic of the week - Gnolls: Misclassified? Should gnolls really be considered humanoids? "Humanoid' usually describes something shaped like or resembling a human. Gnolls look a lot more like hyenas (http://hyena.g2gm.com/). **insert hyena laugh here** Anyways, should gnolls be considered humanoids, or another type (such as beast or monstrous humanoid)?
Yipwyg the Mighty 09-27-03, 01:36 PM	I will join this foundation! Now let us eat the soft folk in celebration. ELF MEAT FOR ALL! IRT topic of the week Perhaps you are correct. They certainly appear as monstrous as a minotaur. BUT they are not quite as savage in manner(They have, ya know, societies), and they are not quite as hulking. They are also only as non-human as the lizardfolk, and those are humanoid, so...? IRT ECL In my view, for every 2 HD of a creature, they LA should go down by 1. In other words, all creatures should have only 2-thirds of their current ECLs.
Laughing Hyena Velox 09-27-03, 03:56 PM	All right! You are member #2 (unless someone else joined but didn't make it clear)! Just put (URL=http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?threadid=102448)The Gnoll and Flind Foundation(/URL) in your sig. Perhaps you are correct. They certainly appear as monstrous as a minotaur. BUT they are not quite as savage in manner(They have, ya know, societies), and they are not quite as hulking. They are also only as non-human as the lizardfolk, and those are humanoid, so...? You're right; it seems inconsistent. I think that maybe the "monstrous humanoid" classification might have something to do with special abilities in addition to phisyology.
Tenzhi 09-28-03, 01:27 AM	Originally posted by Laughing Hyena Velox It's still a major problem for level 1 campaigns; according to WotC's new LA system a 2HD gnoll is the equivilent of a 3rd level standard character, for some reason. Ah well, one of the writers who came up with the system for Savage Species stated that the LAs are a bit high on purpose. Personally, I think that a 2HD Gnoll is equivalent to a slightly weak 2nd level PC so there shouldn't be an LA for Gnolls. Indeed, in many (but not necessaril ALL) cases I find that if the LA does not exceed the HD there probably shouldn't be an LA as the abilities that make up the LA substitute for class abilities that should have been gained with the HD.
Yipwyg the Mighty 09-28-03, 02:07 PM	We need a new topic of the week now. Perhaps a caste system for Gnolls and their kin? Or stats for the Flind?
Laughing Hyena Velox 09-28-03, 03:42 PM	Caste systems? I never really thought gnolls would have a caste system, especially considering their chaotic bent and the relatively open society of actual hyenas. But I suppose that's open to interpretation. On the topic of flinds, maybe flind should be a prestige class for gnolls. Or a template. The problem is, flinds probably aren't that different than standard gnolls to warrant such a change. My advice to flind fans is to play a lawful gnoll and use nunchaku stats for your flind-bars.
Skar 09-28-03, 06:27 PM	I have to confess that when I first started playing D&D I wanted to have a Flind character in the worst way, mostly because of their cool flindbars! But back then you really couldn't. Now that the rules are more flexible for humanoid races, I'd love to give it a try. Are these the right stats for a Flind character?: +6 Str +2 Dex +4 Con Starting Hit Die: 2d8+4 +1 natural armor bonus Proficient with flindbars Favored Class: Fighter ECL: 4 Also I think that flindbars should do more damage than nunchaku cause most of them are made out of wood with metal chains between them and flindbars are made of iron with iron chains between them. How about: Flind Bars(exotic weapon): Damage 1d8, Weight: 8 lb, Size: Medium, Cost: 25 gp Special: A character who is proficient with flindbars gets a +4 on opposed checks to disarm an opponent with a flindbar. A character who is not proficient with flind bars only gets a +2 bonus to disarm checks when wielding one.
Skar 09-28-03, 06:47 PM	Oh and sorry Laughing Hyena Velox, but I think that Gnolls do already have a caste system in that Flinds are the elite rulers of Gnolls. Of course not all Gnoll tribes have Flinds, and maybe some of them even hate Flinds.
Silmarien Aldalome 09-28-03, 08:34 PM	Originally posted by Skar I have to confess that when I first started playing D&D I wanted to have a Flind character in the worst way, mostly because of their cool flindbars! But back then you really couldn't. Now that the rules are more flexible for humanoid races, I'd love to give it a try. Are these the right stats for a Flind character?: +6 Str +2 Dex +4 Con Starting Hit Die: 2d8+4 +1 natural armor bonus Proficient with flindbars Favored Class: Fighter ECL: 4 At least ECL 4 Just curious - how come you ain't nerfed Charisma, Int, Wis within this model..?? Cheers Sil
Skar 09-28-03, 09:00 PM	I guess the reason for that and the higher ECL is that Flinds are supposed to be superior to Gnolls. I got those stats out of some free preview pages of the Tome Of Horrors from NecromancerGames.com (http://www.necromancergames.com/products.html) That site has some really cool stuff on it by the way, as good or better than products offered on the Wizards site. In fact, after looking again at the wicked picture in Tome of Horrors of a Flind wielding a flindbar I'm changing my suggested stats on it that I posted above, which is entirely my own idea, not supported in Tome of Horrors or any other book as for as I know but makes sense to me. I mean the thing just looks deadly, does it not?
Silmarien Aldalome 09-29-03, 02:55 AM	Originally posted by Skar In fact, after looking again at the wicked picture in Tome of Horrors of a Flind wielding a flindbar I'm changing my suggested stats on it that I posted above, which is entirely my own idea, not supported in Tome of Horrors or any other book as for as I know but makes sense to me. I mean the thing just looks deadly, does it not? Re: Tomb of Horrors :cool: haven't heard that name for a while - it was a great AD&D module (unless they've re-written it for 3.5?) I respect changing statistics as people see appropriate. In terms of Gnolls - I'd like to see some "gnoll mythology" tabled here at the foundation - about their race and its role in Greyhawk, Faerun or otherwise....and some Gnoll PrC's that lean on the teeth and strength of the race. But PrC's that are developed here... cheers sil
Skar 09-29-03, 03:11 AM	Not Tomb of Horrors, The Tome of Horrors, it's kind of a monster manual supplement with lots of first edition monsters in it, rather than a kick ass adventure. Although they do have some very cool looking modules on that site as well. Heres the description of it: Disappointed that your favorite First Edition monsters didn't make it into the official rulebooks? Contained herein are all the classic monsters you have longed for, plus a whole bunch more! Restore "First Edition Feel" to your game with this manual of monsters both malevolent and benign! The Tome of Horrors contains over 400 monsters, from the aerial servant and the lurker above to the shadow demon and the skeleton warrior to the Demon Lord Orcus himself! We worked closely with Wizards of the Coast so that the creatures in this Tome do not overlap with any of the official Third Edition books. You won't find any of the monsters in this book in any official product Eh just go to the link and check it out yerself. I'm no bloody salesman ;)
Laughing Hyena Velox 09-29-03, 07:40 PM	Flind Bars(exotic weapon): Damage 1d8, Weight: 8 lb, Size: Medium, Cost: 25 gp Shouldn't Flind-Bars have a trip attack capability too? I respect changing statistics as people see appropriate. In terms of Gnolls - I'd like to see some "gnoll mythology" tabled here at the foundation - about their race and its role in Greyhawk, Faerun or otherwise....and some Gnoll PrC's that lean on the teeth and strength of the race. But PrC's that are developed here... Gnoll mythology, eh? I've got some ideas (will post later). Oh and sorry Laughing Hyena Velox, but I think that Gnolls do already have a caste system in that Flinds are the elite rulers of Gnolls. Of course not all Gnoll tribes have Flinds, and maybe some of them even hate Flinds. Don't apologize, I'm not the authority on gnolls. I just happen to have a thing for hyenas and hyena-like creatures. But gnolls seem to be, well, wild, and probably only flinds could really control them.
Yipwyg the Mighty 09-29-03, 07:49 PM	Originally posted by Laughing Hyena Velox But gnolls seem to be, well, wild, and probably only flinds could really control them. Or a slightly stronger gnoll.
Skar 09-29-03, 07:53 PM	Shouldn't Flind-Bars have a trip attack capability too? I don't know. I kind of think I over did the stats to begin with. Maybe it should just have a +2 bonus to both disarm and trip instead? I'm going to post it over in the combat and weapons board and see if I can get some feedback.
Laughing Hyena Velox 09-30-03, 04:57 PM	The way trips attacks work is that you can make a trip attack normally with the weapon, and if you get tripped in return all you have to do is drop the weapon and the trip is negated.
Laughing Hyena Velox 09-30-03, 05:13 PM	Hmmm... Gnoll Mythology? I always figured gnolls were like hyenas, predators living in the wilderness, prowling the night. (In my view) they live in clans sharing the same allegience, but travel about either alone or in smaller packs. Gnolls are loyal, willing to take risks to aid each other, but they view almost everyone else as food. They are straightforward creatures, having little use for stealth or trickery. And they're soft and fluffy, too.
Tenzhi 10-01-03, 02:32 AM	Since Flinds were pretty much a "nobler" form of Gnoll, I'm thinking I'll just use Kkat's more refined jackal-based Gnolls as Flinds (probably with a few minor changes). Perhaps Gnolls were once a tribe of more human-like humanoids. Perhaps they took to making blood sacrafices to their leaders and proclaiming them as gods. The tribe leaders may have ritualistically bathed in the blood of the sacrafices and feasted on their hearts. Eventually the true gods became offended and cursed the tribe with the forms of hyenas and a constant hunger for the flesh they devoured in life. Or something. :behold:
Laughing Hyena Velox 10-01-03, 04:42 PM	Maybe gnolls were created as guardians of nature, very close to the natural world, being hyena-like and all, but also able to fight nature's enemies on their own terms. Of course, the gnolls eventually went renegade and strayed from their mission, living their own lives instead, but every so often, a gnoll hears the call of duty and becomes a druid. Or maybe the gnolls never strayed from their mission, but they don't make it obvious what they're doing; they might work indirectly to preserve nature, but no one else realizes it. A gnoll clan establishing fortified den on the border of civilization might be trying to halt the advances of farmers and loggers and protect the plains and forests beyond; but only the gnolls know this, everyone else thinks they're just vicious beasts.
Kesh 10-01-03, 07:38 PM	Rowr. :cool: I don't join foundations, but I just had to pipe up for my favorite monster race here. I'll subscribe to this thread and put my personal take on gnolls in here later.
Yipwyg the Mighty 10-02-03, 10:27 AM	In my world, gnolls are magically evolved hyenas, created by Illithid servants of Yeenoghu. However, once his mind flayer cultists completed the work of making beasts in their lord's image, Yeenoghu destroyed them utterly, as he no longer had need for them. However, the gnolls were not as servantile as the Demon had hoped, and instead of coming to him in the Abyss and being his slaves, went to the material plane and made their own societies, yet still worshipping him mostly.
Riggoras_44 10-02-03, 03:04 PM	I was lured into this thread by the irresistible coolness of Gnolls. I think you can have 1st level Gnolls with ECL 0 and then add Gnoll Levels to them instead of class levels; much like the new section of savage progressions offered in the WoTC DnD webpage. You should check this out (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a) in case you haven't, so you get the idea of how to go at applying monster level progressions.
Laughing Hyena Velox 10-04-03, 09:02 AM	Perhaps Gnolls were once a tribe of more human-like humanoids. Perhaps they took to making blood sacrafices to their leaders and proclaiming them as gods. The tribe leaders may have ritualistically bathed in the blood of the sacrafices and feasted on their hearts. Eventually the true gods became offended and cursed the tribe with the forms of hyenas and a constant hunger for the flesh they devoured in life. That's an interesting idea. For some reason, hyena-ness (or is that hyenism?) doesn't seem like a "curse"; more like a blessing. In my world, gnolls are magically evolved hyenas, created by Illithid servants of Yeenoghu. However, once his mind flayer cultists completed the work of making beasts in their lord's image, Yeenoghu destroyed them utterly, as he no longer had need for them. However, the gnolls were not as servantile as the Demon had hoped, and instead of coming to him in the Abyss and being his slaves, went to the material plane and made their own societies, yet still worshipping him mostly. It's great to hear everyone's interpretation of the gnoll. This one is good too... Modified hyenas... I was lured into this thread by the irresistible coolness of Gnolls. I think you can have 1st level Gnolls with ECL 0 and then add Gnoll Levels to them instead of class levels; much like the new section of savage progressions offered in the WoTC DnD webpage. You should check this out in case you haven't, so you get the idea of how to go at applying monster level progressions. Well, it's good that you like gnolls! Yes, there is an option of using monster levels, but the Gnoll class isn't that good; no special abilities or features, and a crappy hit dice and attack bonus. Rowr. I don't join foundations, but I just had to pipe up for my favorite monster race here. I'll subscribe to this thread and put my personal take on gnolls in here later. Looking forward to reading it.
Laughing Hyena Velox 10-04-03, 09:23 PM	Topic of the Week: Why are gnolls so hungry? Theory #1: A gnoll's stomach is actually an extradimensional pocket; it's bigger on the inside than on the outside. Since this extradimensional space is several times larger than what it appears to be, gnolls have to eat a whole lot of meat to keep it filled. Feel free to post your own theories!
Laughing Hyena Velox 10-06-03, 01:22 PM	:bump:
Laughing Hyena Velox 10-06-03, 01:45 PM	Here's my Flind prestige class: Prestige Class: The Flind Requirements: Base Attack Bonus +4 or higher Race: Gnoll Hit Dice: d10 Class Skills: Bluff, Intimidate, Sense Motive, Diplomacy, Spot, Listen, Tumble, Wilderness Lore Level Base Attack Fort. Ref. Will Special 1 +1 +2 +0 +2 Flind-Bars, proficiency 2 +2 +3 +0 +3 Respect of the Pack 3 +3 +3 +1 +3 Flind-Bars, trip/disarm +1 4 +4 +4 +1 +4 Flind-Bars, specialization 5 +5 +4 +1 +4 Charm Gnoll, 1/day 6 +6/+1 +5 +2 +5 Flind-Bars, trip/disarm +2, Pack Leader 7 +7/+2 +5 +2 +5 Charm Gnoll, 2/day 8 +8/+3 +6 +2 +6 Flind-Bars, extra attack 1 9 +9/+4 +6 +3 +6 Charm Gnoll, 3/day 10 +10/+5 +7 +3 +7 Flind-Bars, extra attack 2 Flind-Bars: These metal bars, connected by chains, are the the signiture weapon of the flind. At first level, he gains proficiency with the flind-bars. At third level, he recieves a +1 bonus to trip and disarm checks while using the flind-bars; this increases to +2 at 6th level. At fourth level, he becomes specialized with the flind-bars; this is identical with the feat Weapon Specialization, except that it can only be applied to to the flind-bars. At eighth level, he may make one extra attack at his highest attack bonus; the flind need not take the full attack option to benefit from this ability. At tenth level, this may make two of these extra attacks. Respect of the Pack: At second level, the flind gains a +2 bonus to Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Bluff and Intimidate checks when dealing with gnolls. Pack Leader: At sixth level, the flind gains this ability; it is similar to the Leadership feat, except that he may only recruit gnolls. Charm Gnoll: At fifth level, a flind may use this spell-like ability once per day. It is identical to a Charm Monster spell cast by a cleric of the flind's class level, except that it may only affect gnolls. At seventh level, it can be used twice per day; at ninth, it can be used three times per day.
Laughing Hyena Velox 10-08-03, 05:04 PM	(bump) Now that's odd, where did everyone go?
Preacher of barbs 10-17-03, 08:33 AM	*Finally* read through all the posts and the older thread too. (BTW: I agree Gnolls don't deserve a +2 ECL and WoTC often makes sucky calls) Anyway, I want to share my "Gnoll experiences" with you. I always loved the bugger. Hyenas are cool. In a 4 year campaing, with rotational GMS, I included a recurring character who was a Gnoll. In this world, Flinds did not exist but there was rare 'special Gnolls' that came up now and then. Real smart and often put in charge. Gen-ghul (g-hen goul) was a old shaman who tried his best to keep his tribe out of trouble of its mainly chaotic-evil tendencies and into his own his own Lawful-evil/neutral alignement. He was around 100 years old and seen as a hero and a revered diplomat by many. Research kept popping up links between him and a historian and several other historical figures. The PCs finally traveled in time when their city was but a primitive coastal tribe. They allied with a thief, fought a werewolf in a less distant past etc etc In the end they discovered that they were all the same guy. The thief they encoutered 2000 years in the past stole a ring of reincarnation (1 year to recharge, in a newborn creature, with a new expanded results table, all memories kept but ring remains on original body). The guy, who was in turn, enemy, ally, friend, obstacle, mentor to the PC was all the same guy: that Gnoll shaman. He was preparing them for a fight against an undead monster god. Through wich he knew final death was coming. Well hope you liked the story. Next time (if interest is shown) I could tell you about my Gnoll PC concept that;s still sitting on the shelf for now... hmmm and make a drawing like I said I would... PoB PS: yes: you can add me to the list of gnoll fans ;)
Preacher of barbs 10-18-03, 03:30 AM	On another note, I am awaiting for the opportunity to start playing a Gnoll character. (Build with the Savage Species rules in mind, but I still think they should only count as a one level race class) Anyways, my concept is a young teenager female gnoll, She's chaotic neutral, reflecting her nature as a fun-loving, bon-vivant who wants to experience everything and basically do whatever the hell she feels like doing. She realised she did not fit when she was part of her first raid on a human village. She has absolutely no blood lust. Her idea of fun might include a good brawl but she woud rather dance, laugh, eat and play pranks. and She's all smiles...wicked ones for sure >D So, pushed by her pack mates, she took a human male as a slave. But quite unsure what to do with him (eating him seemed just vulgar) she...well had him for nicer stuff. (He was afraid but more willing to do that than the alternative) Discovering new horizons, she left to travel the world. She is probably the most joyous, prim gnoll one could ever meet. She is a sensual creature who likes to comb her fur and enjoys mostly having fun and cuddling scared, smaller humanoids. Imagine a happy-go-lucky 7 foot teenage girl who likes to sexually overpower small males, looking pretty and always looks for fun with a huge smile. THat's about her. So? Stupid or fun? Pob
Laughing Hyena Velox 10-18-03, 08:45 PM	I'm glad you like hyenas! Try checking out a few of the hyena sites out there, like the one in my sig. It hasn't been updated for a while, but there's some hyena stuff there. Also check out JungleWalk; they have links to lotsa hyena videos. Cool story... It sounds very intricately planned. Did you plan all that, or was it on-the spot? The idea of a gnoll character is a good concept. It's very creative, actually, far from the standard gnoll (in a good way). About combing fur... One thing about hyenas is that no matter how much they groom their fur, it still looks ruffled and matted. Regarding Savage Species; try this approach: since the gnoll has and excess stat bonus, maybe you could offer to take a total of 4 points off your ability scores (the gnoll is technically 4 points overpowered).
Preacher of barbs 10-19-03, 06:47 AM	Yeah I do love Hyenas. Perhaps because I have a weak spot for the underdog, dowtrodden and the pariah among us. That may be why I own (and love) rats. I took the time to read on the lnks you gave ('tho it helps being a speed reader and knowing Hyena factoids beforehand) Thanks for the links btw Yeah, I write a lot (English Lit diploma helps, but dont nitpick on typos: I type my mails online as they go...and fast) So I did weave that long line of scenarios into the games as a web of complex hints, clues and stories. I once ran a 4 year-long game where the PC met a morbid mortality-obsessed dark elf, a disease-ridden thief who contaminated half the party, an invading viking warlord and an anorexic princess who destroyed her peasants crops by accident. They all died strange deaths at the hands of artefacts. At the end the PC saw they coming back from limbo; announcing the end of times. they were the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse and none of the PC saw that coming. Mainly because they were always secondary characters and they were separated by 4 years of gaming. Plus at the end, they were too busy panicking because the figther pc, possesed by the sword of War, had unleashed his bottled up Efreet Lord upon a holy city...and all of them were out of spells/ammo/items.... yeah...I put waaaaay too much into my games. (I'll tell you later about my mod with the Red Wyrm, obsessed by order who ran his lair like a corporation with mephit secretaries and unionized gnome-made elevators playing muzak ;p ) My GM made it so I gained +2ST -2IN -2CH (plus all other abilities) at first level as a Gnoll. an additional +2st and +2Con comes at 2nd level. I still say he could have given me the whole lot in a one level package. Let's see; +4 ST +2CO -2 in -2 ch (preventing me from contemplating a career as a Cleric BTW) +1 ac darkvision Scent *PLUS* let's not forget: NO CLASS-RELATED BENEFITS compared to, say, a half-orc barbarian level 1 +2st -2ch -2in darkvision Rage fast move d12 HD additional skills and weapon proficiencies etc I say they balance out...and I think its generous on my part. Well, my GM is pretty much by the book, so I guess there's no use arguing. He's the kind who thinks he's doing you a favor by letting you make your own spells, even tho its in the rules. PoB
Silmarien Aldalome 10-19-03, 07:11 AM	Yeah I do love Hyenas. Perhaps because I have a weak spot for the underdog, dowtrodden and the pariah among us. That may be why I own (and love) rats. It's why I love birds, rabbits, and prey of all kinds. I understand your compassion. Our cat surprised me the other day. She is amazingly tame. The other day, our she was in the house with a bird that found its way inside. The bird had been inside all day (from the 'presents' it had left everwhere) - and the cat was unmoved by the fluttering. I was able to go up to the bird, and it jumped on a box I held out - and I set it free. Nice to meet you. Silmarien
Demon Lightfoot 10-19-03, 08:37 AM	Originally posted by Silmarien Aldalome It's why I love birds, rabbits, and prey of all kinds. I understand your compassion. Our cat surprised me the other day. She is amazingly tame. The other day, our she was in the house with a bird that found its way inside. The bird had been inside all day (from the 'presents' it had left everwhere) - and the cat was unmoved by the fluttering. I was able to go up to the bird, and it jumped on a box I held out - and I set it free. Nice to meet you. Silmarien In our household we have (thanks to Milady's evil machinations) five cats; they'd have moiderized da bum. An aside: Most of the Ozzies that I've encountered on-line express a virulent hatred of cats (and Foster's, too, but that's even more of an OT digression); you're the first whom I've come across who claims ownership by one.
Laughing Hyena Velox 10-19-03, 11:29 AM	Yeah I do love Hyenas. Perhaps because I have a weak spot for the underdog, dowtrodden and the pariah among us. HYENAS FOREVER! A fellow hyena-lover, eh? Well, what's not to like about hyenas? They're intelligent, beautiful, playful, kind animals, and they have great voices. An aside: Most of the Ozzies that I've encountered on-line express a virulent hatred of cats (and Foster's, too, but that's even more of an OT digression); you're the first whom I've come across who claims ownership by one. What's a foster? Our cat surprised me the other day. She is amazingly tame. The other day, our she was in the house with a bird that found its way inside. The bird had been inside all day (from the 'presents' it had left everwhere) - and the cat was unmoved by the fluttering. Well, that is a bit odd for a cat, I suppose, but many animals are quite unlike their stereotypes. Example: Cats and dogs don't always fight, nor do they fall as part of a rainstorm.
Preacher of barbs 10-19-03, 06:48 PM	Thanks for the welcome Salmarien & Hyena >Most of the Ozzies that I've encountered on-line express a >virulent hatred of cats I'd say that might be why they have problems with rats and mice all over the place ^_^; (dont' kill me, its just a jest: I love Australia. My gf's name is Adelaide) Pob
Silmarien Aldalome 10-19-03, 08:03 PM	Originally posted by Demon Lightfoot In our household we have (thanks to Milady's evil machinations) five cats; they'd have moiderized da bum. An aside: Most of the Ozzies that I've encountered on-line express a virulent hatred of cats (and Foster's, too, but that's even more of an OT digression); you're the first whom I've come across who claims ownership by one. Prolly true - but we're a mix on the cat-front - with leanings towards anti-cat-dom overall. In the "bush suburbs" there are lotso council directives - and "cat-curfew" laws!!! *scratches head and says* "how do you get a cat to do anything it doesn't want to do? To first bit :rofl: Then, the lady must be Queen Beruthial (of Numenor) - where are the other four cats? To Preacher of Barbs: You are very welcome!! To Laughing Hyena: "Fosters" as in "ahh...Foster's Larger...it's got the flavour..." (i.e. that's part of a commercial that got "burned" into us as children. It's an ozzie beer..... Fosters is to Oz as Route 66 is to America.... :) ;) Cheers Sil
Demon Lightfoot 10-21-03, 06:25 AM	Sorry if there's been any confusion; "Milady" is how I tend to refer to my wife on-line.
Laughing Hyena Velox 10-22-03, 01:00 PM	Topic of the Week (or something like that): Are flinds simply a certain type or caste of gnoll, or are they a different (but similar) species?
Preacher of barbs 10-22-03, 06:10 PM	The first time I heard about the Flinds, I loved the concept. Some kind of 'Aryan', leader sub species. But them looking different bothered me (I still own The Fiend Folio they first appeared in). No one explained if they were related or some humanoid they admired. That bothered me and my preconceptions were much more interesting IMHO. So whenever I used Flinds in my home games, I made them exactly like Gnolls but more poised, taller, stronger, more in control. I managed them the way I tought they were before I read on them. A genetic extravagance that happened now and then. That the Gnolls could not control or breed them. With time the tribe realises the person is different and they naturally rise to power due to natural cunning and superiority. I also made their mind sharper, more rigid. Thus explaining their natural tendency towards Lawful Evil rather than Chaotic evil. They would also go that way because order helps them keep the head of the hierarchy. ;P Therefore, from time to time, a Gnoll leader would arise, organise them and make the roaming tribes of Gnolls a much more potential threat. So that's how I defined Flinds, but mainly because the game makers failed to defined them. (From what I've read: anyone knows of official sources saying they're the same species?) PoB
Silmarien Aldalome 10-23-03, 04:21 AM	Originally posted by Demon Lightfoot Sorry if there's been any confusion; "Milady" is how I tend to refer to my wife on-line. OMG! Who is she - does she post here?? Do you 'member Queen Beruthial?? Greetings Laughing Hyena and Preacher of Barbs.... Tell you truth - i've no idea what a Flind is - but they sound fun. Thanx for the post Barbs.... cheers sil
Preacher of barbs 10-23-03, 07:09 AM	Flinds are smarter, tougher (albeit smaller) Gnolls. They're Lawful Evil rather than Chaotic evil, have more 'leonide' features and normal Gnolls often make them their leaders. As far as I know, nothing as been said about the two being the same race...or not actually. First apparition, Fiend Folio circa 1982. (I own two original Fiend Folios...worship me!!! ^_^ ) Most of the beasties of the FF came from published modules, so I guess there might have been something with them in it. Probably in the late seventies. Pob
Tenzhi 10-23-03, 08:49 AM	Originally posted by Preacher of barbs As far as I know, nothing as been said about the two being the same race...or not actually. In the 2nd Edition Monstrous Manual (1993 - worship me in 11 years :rolleyes: ) Flinds are listed as a subrace of Gnoll.
Laughing Hyena Velox 10-23-03, 10:31 AM	I've seen flinds listed as Flind, Gnoll, which implies that the full name in proper order is Gnoll Flind. Maybe "Flind" is a title, like Sergeant or Lieutenant (3rd level and 4-5th level respectively). In the computer game Baldur's Gate, Flinds were blue high-level gnolls with swords... The gnoll leader was labeled as Gnoll Chieftain.
Laughing Hyena Velox 10-23-03, 10:40 AM	If there was a gnoll werehyena, what would the hybrid form look like?
Preacher of barbs 10-23-03, 08:25 PM	Never had the 2e MM. I hated the drawings in the 2e (the detachable files with blue borders) Monster Manual enough that you would have to pay me to use it. (and a pretty hefty sum at that) *puke* Nevertheless, the first illustartion made the Flinds so physically different, I had a hard time imagining they would be of the same specie. Their face was clearly like lions, even their size and stats were different from regular gnolls. Heck: there's less external differences between an Bugbear and a Hobgoblin. THat's why I could never know if they were related or not with the info given. PoB
Silmarien Aldalome 10-23-03, 09:03 PM	Thanx PoB, Tenzhi and laughing hyena...... cheers sil
Laughing Hyena Velox 10-24-03, 05:16 PM	That's rather odd... Because hyenas and lions hate each other; they fight all the time. It's because lions tend to bully other carnivores, and only the hyena really fights back (they're very brave animals). If flinds are lion-like, I can imagine the hyena-like gnolls would have their blades and bows out at the mere sight of one.
Preacher of barbs 10-28-03, 03:33 PM	I do not adopt a realistic approach to role-playing game environments myself. To me Gnolls (or other monsters) have no basis in scientific things like evolution. I think it detracts from the fantasy. That's why I always pick and choose only a couple of humanoid races for my games. That way I can make unique supernatural origins. In that 'Apocalypse' game I made it so that when a community of human does evil (waging war for profit, commiting athrocities like punishing the innocent as scapegoats) they can be cursed and twisted into evil humanoids. Each humanoid race I used was the 'cursed form' of every single human culture I invented Eldenoran ('european') Goblins / Orcs Semite ('arabic') Gnolls Slavic ('viking/northern races') Hobgoblins etc So I never really saw Gnolls as Hyena offshots. I try to dismiss rational tought and science when I build my fantasy worlds. PoB
Qit el-Remel 10-28-03, 08:17 PM	Originally posted by Vargr BoarTusk I tend to make my gnolls more true to hyena's and have the females be the larger stronger types usually acting as the fighters and barbarians with the smaller less aggressive males being rogues and rangers If you're over 17, go over to the Mature Think Tank and see what I have to say about gnolls. -Qit
Laughing Hyena Velox 10-30-03, 05:17 PM	Uh, about hyenas... (I posted this in the Mature board too, but I'll post it here too. No, there is nothing controversial in my post) I love hyenas! I tend to interpret gnolls as more like hyenas... which means NOT evil (hyenas are actually very nice). More like opportunistic, social but simultaneously independent, cunning and fierce. Tight-knit society with strong feelings of loyalty and comrade-ship, that sort of thing. I know some hyena-tactics that could be applied to gnolls; the back-and-forth pack-rush fighting of rival hyena clans, the flanking attack, stuff like that. About hyena society, the hierarchy is well-defined but not as harsh as that of other animals. High-ranking hyenas (usually females) are respected; lesser hyenas rally to them and follow them on patrols, and if they want something the other hyenas will let them have it. Hyena rarely fight over rank, and they don't harass or push around subordinates (like I said, they're very nice animals). For gnolls, it would be something like this: A gnoll pack-leader (probably female) has several subordinates who willingly join her pack and follow her around; they do not take orders from her. If she rushes to attack an enemy (orcs, etc.) the others will support her. If the gnolls find an arms cache or caravan, they'll rush to loot the spoils. If there is a paticularily valuable item (i.e. a masterwork weapon), the gnolls will try to take it, perhaps engaging in a tug-of-war competition. A pack-leader can grab it and the others will let her take it. Check out the Laughing Hyena Den in my sig for more hyena stuff!
Romulus LoneWolf 10-30-03, 06:23 PM	As much as I like Hyenas, LHV, I have to point out that your characterisation of Gnolls does not prevent them from being Evil creatures. There's no rule that states that Evil creatures can't love their own kin, after all. But they do remain Predators, and most especially predators that see any animal creature, including sentient humanoids, as potential food. This means that they're less likely to see an adventuring party as someone to chat and trade with for something to eat, then as food that needs to stop struggling. Heck, you could even have them stay as evil, violent predators and give them a traditional role as maintainers of Nature's balance. Maybe that role is as a predator to kill humanoids who encroach too much on wilderness areas, to keep humanoid populations down? ...Or is that too much like the Garou of W:TA?
Laughing Hyena Velox 10-31-03, 05:41 PM	Being Nature's defenders would probably make gnolls chaotic good, unless they were unaware of this role (and are simply following their instincts), making them neutral. In the default D&D world, I would have more respect for the average gnoll than the average human. Think about it; it is stated that humans are the most numerous race, and are generally the dominant species. Consider how they got there; probably through beating up on everyone else and hoarding all the land they could. Now consider gnolls; they live in harmony with nature, they are territorial, but they're not into controlling huge expanses of land or ruling over subjects. Gnolls don't engage in betrayal or deception. Plus, they're like hyenas!
Romulus LoneWolf 10-31-03, 06:27 PM	Originally posted by Laughing Hyena Velox Being Nature's defenders would probably make gnolls chaotic good, unless they were unaware of this role (and are simply following their instincts), making them neutral. In the default D&D world, I would have more respect for the average gnoll than the average human. Think about it; it is stated that humans are the most numerous race, and are generally the dominant species. Consider how they got there; probably through beating up on everyone else and hoarding all the land they could. Now consider gnolls; they live in harmony with nature, they are territorial, but they're not into controlling huge expanses of land or ruling over subjects. Gnolls don't engage in betrayal or deception. Plus, they're like hyenas! Why would being defenders of Nature automatically make Gnolls Chaotic Good? Nature isn't all Bambi cuteness and Lion King "Circles of Life".. Nature is usually referred to as "Nature, Red in Tooth and Claw". And if the Nature's Defender role of the Gnolls is to be the Predators who prey on those whom they percieve as despoiling nature. ...And if they percieve themselves in a losing battle, there's no telling how extreme they might get in executing that they percieve as a sacred mission. The Garou in Werewolf: The Apocalypse, for exemple, once spent a long period, called the Impurgium, scouring Human communities to "Cull the Heard" by killing random humans to keep village populations down. Perhaps a Gnoll nation could declare a "War of Purging" on the Humans of the land, whom they consider are overstepping their bonds, and proceed to raid and slaughter human villages in an attempt to lower the human population... (Sorry, I'm kinda stuck on the concept of Gnolls as villains :angel: )
Laughing Hyena Velox 11-01-03, 10:56 AM	Why would being defenders of Nature automatically make Gnolls Chaotic Good? Nature isn't all Bambi cuteness and Lion King "Circles of Life".. Nature is usually referred to as "Nature, Red in Tooth and Claw". And if the Nature's Defender role of the Gnolls is to be the Predators who prey on those whom they percieve as despoiling nature. ...And if they percieve themselves in a losing battle, there's no telling how extreme they might get in executing that they percieve as a sacred mission. The Garou in Werewolf: The Apocalypse, for exemple, once spent a long period, called the Impurgium, scouring Human communities to "Cull the Heard" by killing random humans to keep village populations down. Perhaps a Gnoll nation could declare a "War of Purging" on the Humans of the land, whom they consider are overstepping their bonds, and proceed to raid and slaughter human villages in an attempt to lower the human population... Hey, I know all about predators... Especially hyenas. Predators aren't evil; i.e. hyenas are some of the most admirable, beautiful, intelligent, kind, playful, loyal, etc. animals ever, and they're definitely predators. Yes, they can be vicious, but they need to be to survive. All of these scenarios you suggest, they are all justified as self-defence. When the invading human force comes, it's kill or be killed. Fighting to stop the enemy from invading your land and killing you and your kin isn't evil, it's the only way to survive.
Romulus LoneWolf 11-01-03, 11:52 AM	Originally posted by Laughing Hyena Velox Hey, I know all about predators... Especially hyenas. Predators aren't evil; i.e. hyenas are some of the most admirable, beautiful, intelligent, kind, playful, loyal, etc. animals ever, and they're definitely predators. Yes, they can be vicious, but they need to be to survive. All of these scenarios you suggest, they are all justified as self-defence. When the invading human force comes, it's kill or be killed. Fighting to stop the enemy from invading your land and killing you and your kin isn't evil, it's the only way to survive. Is it self-defense to go out and slaughter a village of commoners simply because they're humans, like the ones who -did- commit crimes against your people? Killing animals to survive isn't Evil, I admit. Nor is killing in self-defense. ...But I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about a group of Gnolls deciding "To hell with the Humans and their despoiling of nature! Wipe them out! Wipe them ALL OUT!" They might have an honorable goal (preserving the wild), but their methods will still involve wholesale slaughter. Look, I don't want to pick an argument with you. If you want to portray Gnolls as a merely misunderstood race, it's your campaign world. Me, I see things differently.
Laughing Hyena Velox 11-01-03, 01:58 PM	Which makes them neutral, as opposed to good. Whereas a good character might consider all the moral and ethical implications of their actions, a neutral character does everything to defend herself and her kin. An evil character would do things destructive and immoral out of personal greed or for a thrill; gnolls don't fall into this category.
Xarrith 11-01-03, 02:31 PM	Originally posted by Laughing Hyena Velox Topic of the Week (or something like that): Are flinds simply a certain type or caste of gnoll, or are they a different (but similar) species? I wouldn't want to consider them just a caste of gnoll, but a subrace (as someone else suggested they were originally categorized as) sounds appropriate. I mean, elves and others have subraces, so why not gnolls? However, that makes the previously posted PrC for becoming a flind useless, and I liked the PrC as written, so...What it comes down to is how you want to treat them in your own campaign. If they are a subspecies, then they are going to have a heftier LA than gnolls according to some of the suggested stats I've seen so far. If you're going to make them a PrC of gnoll, doing that could work out more effectively, game-wise, for most players. If it were my campaign, I'd treat them as a higher caste, and flinds are gnolls with PrC Flind levels. But what I really think makes most sense is if they're a subspecies altogether. Just my 2 cents :)
Romulus LoneWolf 11-01-03, 04:20 PM	Originally posted by Laughing Hyena Velox Which makes them neutral, as opposed to good. Whereas a good character might consider all the moral and ethical implications of their actions, a neutral character does everything to defend herself and her kin. An evil character would do things destructive and immoral out of personal greed or for a thrill; gnolls don't fall into this category. Sorry, but I have to disagree here. The concept of "Ethnic Cleansing" is an Evil Act in my book, whether it's initiated by the Gnolls who seek to punish Humans for encroaching into the wild, by Humans who seek to eliminate a race they see as a danger to their own race, or by any other race on another. Most cases of Ethnic Cleansing start when the offending people believe they need to do everything in their power to defend their kin, no matter how many of the "enemy race" has to be killed in the process. A more Neutral option would be for both races to isolate themselves in their own regions, and only use violence in response to intruders from the Enemy Race entering one's territory (which would probably include some disputed areas, though). And a truly Good option would be for both sides to stop the violence and negociate an arrangement that's suitable for both parties, for exemple. ...Sorry, don't mean to sound preachy. I'm still a bit in "Good vs Evil" mode from the Mature boards.
Preacher of barbs 11-01-03, 07:46 PM	I always believed the alignement a flawed concept from the start. What is evil for someone is good for the other and vice versa. I prefer that a player chooses a 'personality archetype' or two and I will reward him/her if they play in character. Keeping punishment reserves for a goody-two-shoes who suddenly does something evil because its the easy way out even if it would be totally alien and inexcusable for his charcater. Plus, I agree: D&D stories are always human-centric and give humans the moral "carte blanche" equivalent of CNN coverage of washington policies. My 2 cents and I don't care if that offends someone, there :P
Romulus LoneWolf 11-01-03, 07:59 PM	Originally posted by Preacher of barbs I always believed the alignement a flawed concept from the start. What is evil for someone is good for the other and vice versa. I prefer that a player chooses a 'personality archetype' or two and I will reward him/her if they play in character. Keeping punishment reserves for a goody-two-shoes who suddenly does something evil because its the easy way out even if it would be totally alien and inexcusable for his charcater. Plus, I agree: D&D stories are always human-centric and give humans the moral "carte blanche" equivalent of CNN coverage of washington policies. My 2 cents and I don't care if that offends someone, there :P I really don't want to turn this into an Alignment rant or otherwise ruin this Thread, so can we drop the whole alignment subject? And like I said, Ethnic Cleansing would be just as Evil as performed by Humans on Gnolls as it would be the other way around. A group of Humans who was going around clear-cutting forests and slaughtering all the animals in the area for meat, fur and sport would rightly deserve a royal smack-down from the defenders of the forest, I admit. But is a village of humble, peaceful farmers who's only crime is to clear some woodland to create fields to feed their own deserving of the same treatment?
Preacher of barbs 11-02-03, 01:06 AM	I agree, My post did not sound the way I wanted it to: my point is/was that alignment, as a flawed concept, and therefore can not be argued or debated (implying that we should just forget about it). But then I made the mistake of going the 'holier than thou' path and rambling about *my* own 'oh-so-perfect' rules/preferences Sometimes I suck ;P PoB
Romulus LoneWolf 11-02-03, 08:50 AM	Originally posted by Preacher of barbs I agree, My post did not sound the way I wanted it to: my point is/was that alignment, as a flawed concept, and therefore can not be argued or debated (implying that we should just forget about it). But then I made the mistake of going the 'holier than thou' path and rambling about *my* own 'oh-so-perfect' rules/preferences Sometimes I suck ;P PoB No Harm No Foul. Glad we got this settled before it turned into a Flamewar.
Laughing Hyena Velox 11-02-03, 09:10 AM	I don't know about anyone else, but this is my interpretation of alignments: A neutral (CN, N or LN) gnoll lives by his own allegience, not by a code of ethics. He defends his clan, and aids his comrades. If anyone were to invade his territory and attack his fellow gnolls, he would grab his blade and armor and rush into the battlefield, but don't expect him to go out and save the kobolds or the elves from the invaders. He is willing to go to extreme measures to ensure the survival of his clan; if it involves "collateral damage", like assaulting a town to destroy the enemy's garrison, so be it. A good (CG, NG, or LG) gnoll is still loyal to his clan, but he considers the moral implications of his actions. He also goes out of his way to do good, such as fighting evil even if it doesn't threaten himself or his allies, or defending the innocent even if they are not of his clan. In battle, he tries to differentiate civilians from actual threats, and avoids harming innocents even if they are associated with the enemy. Remeber that gnolls are predators, being related to hyenas, and they react violently to threats. If they're attacked, they will launch a counterattack and strike at those who have harmed them. This doesn't make them evil, just aggressive. Like I said before, collateral damage can result from such counterattacks, and the average (CN) gnoll is indifferent, indicating neutrality. Of course this is just my interpretation and opinion...
Laughing Hyena Velox 11-02-03, 09:16 AM	I wouldn't want to consider them just a caste of gnoll, but a subrace (as someone else suggested they were originally categorized as) sounds appropriate. I mean, elves and others have subraces, so why not gnolls? However, that makes the previously posted PrC for becoming a flind useless, and I liked the PrC as written, so...What it comes down to is how you want to treat them in your own campaign. If they are a subspecies, then they are going to have a heftier LA than gnolls according to some of the suggested stats I've seen so far. If you're going to make them a PrC of gnoll, doing that could work out more effectively, game-wise, for most players. If it were my campaign, I'd treat them as a higher caste, and flinds are gnolls with PrC Flind levels. But what I really think makes most sense is if they're a subspecies altogether. Just my 2 cents Why thank you, I'm glad you liked my PrC. I suppose a subspecies would place a large barrier between the standard gnoll and the flind. You're right that the level adjustments would skyrocket, making them useless as a PC race. However, I don't think the flind PrC is good for PC's either; except for the weapon special features, most of it is based on leadership of a gnoll clan, and most players don't bring a hundred NPC gnolls on their adventures. A normal gnoll is better for a player character.
Romulus LoneWolf 11-02-03, 09:45 AM	Originally posted by Laughing Hyena Velox I don't know about anyone else, but this is my interpretation of alignments: (Slight snip) Of course this is just my interpretation and opinion... Ok, that sounds more reasonable. Objections withdrawn.
Laughing Hyena Velox 11-02-03, 11:45 AM	You really have issues; that last post is just asking for it. As founder of the Gnoll and Flind Foundation, I reccommend you cease all inflammatory posting; if this develops into a flame war I will report you for instigation. Edit: You have been reported to the moderators.
Romulus LoneWolf 11-02-03, 05:25 PM	Originally posted by Laughing Hyena Velox You really have issues; that last post is just asking for it. As founder of the Gnoll and Flind Foundation, I reccommend you cease all inflammatory posting; if this develops into a flame war I will report you for instigation. Edit: You have been reported to the moderators. I'm sorry... I didn't mean to offend with my last post. I meant to say that I was withdrawing my objection to your idea. :( edit: I don't want to start a flame war, so if you'll allow me to drop the subject, can we please move on?
Romulus LoneWolf 11-02-03, 05:42 PM	All right, to show that I want to move away from the offensive arguments, allow me to give my opinion concerning Flinds: In my old 2e copy of the Monstrous Manual, The Flind's description is as follows: "The flind is similar to a gnoll in body style, tgough it is a little shorter and broader. They are more muscular than their cousins. Short, dirty, brown and red fur covers their body. Their foreheads do not slope back as far, and their ears are rounded, but still animal like." This indicates that the Flinds are actually different in both appearance and build from the Gnolls. Furthermore, they are generally more intelligent, meaning they shouldn't have an Int penalty of -2. This could be balanced by reducing their Strength or Constitution Bonus. More importantly, however, Flinds in the Monstrous Manual are listed as Lawful Evil, and that Flind leaders always use Flind-bars, which are renamed Nunchaku. Now, who else in Edition 3.5 are Lawful and uses Nunchaku? The Monk! A Flind could be a racial variant of the Gnoll with a tendancy towards the Lawful Alignment and a tradition of Monastic Martial Arts training, thereby explaining the use of Flind-Bars and Clubs that they favor in use.
Xarrith 11-02-03, 10:40 PM	Originally posted by Laughing Hyena Velox Why thank you, I'm glad you liked my PrC. However, I don't think the flind PrC is good for PC's either; except for the weapon special features, most of it is based on leadership of a gnoll clan, and most players don't bring a hundred NPC gnolls on their adventures. A normal gnoll is better for a player character. You're welcome :) And of course, I agree that a normal gnoll is better for the average player character, but if you reallllly wanted to be a Flind, you could always, through talking to your DM about your goals, find a way in the story to justify taking Flind PrC levels. I mean, imagine the plot and roleplaying opportunities involved for the gnoll who wanted to become a flind. Fantasy world + flexible and creative DM = heaven, right? :angel: (Ok, so maybe it's a dream world where you could have a normal adventure AND find time to lead an NPC gnoll clan, but...I really like your concept of becoming one by moving up the ranks of gnoll society, like a four star general.)
Laughing Hyena Velox 11-03-03, 03:50 PM	The problem is, while being a flind might have nice roleplaying element, it's too easy to exploit. If you can simply enlist the local gnolls to do everything for you, that's not much of an adventure. Maybe a good idea would be a disgraced flind, accused of incompetence, who would still have the flind background but holds no command over ordinary gnolls. Of course, you might as well play an outcast gnoll for that matter...
Laughing Hyena Velox 11-03-03, 03:53 PM	Here's a suggestion for those who are tired of ECL's and monster classes: Reduced Gnoll Racial Traits: +2 Strength, -2 Intelligence and Charisma 60' Darkvision Favored class: Ranger Languages: Gnoll. Bonus Languages: Goblin, Orc Patron Deity: Yeenoghu This makes the gnoll roughly equivilant to the half-orc and therefore less likely to bother DM's or make other players jealous.
Qit el-Remel 11-03-03, 05:42 PM	Originally posted by Laughing Hyena Velox Here's a suggestion for those who are tired of ECL's and monster classes: Reduced Gnoll Racial Traits: +2 Strength, -2 Intelligence and Charisma 60' Darkvision Favored class: Ranger Languages: Gnoll. Bonus Languages: Goblin, Orc Patron Deity: Yeenoghu This makes the gnoll roughly equivilant to the half-orc and therefore less likely to bother DM's or make other players jealous. I like that idea, especially since I don't have orcs (or half-orcs) in my campaign setting...but I'd probably have to change the patron deity in order to use them there. (I'm most likely going to just build an entire pantheon from scratch; I've already got a good start, including a new domain.) So...patron deity for Tirin gnolls would probably be Eresh or Skatha, depending on alignment. (Eresh is a genderless deity of random mass destruction. Skatha is a CN war goddess.) -Qit
Laughing Hyena Velox 11-05-03, 06:37 AM	So...patron deity for Tirin gnolls would probably be Eresh or Skatha, depending on alignment. (Eresh is a genderless deity of random mass destruction. Skatha is a CN war goddess.) Random mass destruction? Gnolls don't seem to be the type to launch random nuclear strikes... They like eating their prey, and that's rather hard when it's vaporized or irradiated. And besides, they have too much respect for nature to use that sort of weapon.
Preacher of barbs 11-05-03, 07:09 AM	I wouldnt dimisnish Gnolls myself. There's some bugs in the Savage Species system, but it does offer the opportunity to built up on more powerful creatures. Were I to include Flinds and Gnolls as player races, I would make them a one-level monster class for Gnolls and two levels for Flinds. (The default one for Gnolls is two but I disagree) With a +2 Int modifier and +4 circumstancial Diplomacy bonus with Gnolls for the Flind sub-race. (and maybe a +2 for something like Sense Motive or Bluff on Gnolls) And altough Flinds are recognised as natural leaders among Gnolls, I would never give the player a free ride. If they drop in among a tribe of GNolls, they might be intrigued and accept him easily. But if he starts bossing them around expecting them to serve him: he better be starting to roll pretty high on his Diplomacy checks. No one gets a free ride. There's other leaders who would gladly dispose of the pretentious upstart. Plus if the rest of the tribe don't know him from adam, they're not going to follow him to hell and back that's for sure. He will only benefit from his reaction bonus: his nature as a Flind will give him a positive first reaction, but that's it. He'll have to prove himself if he wants to lead. PoB
Amaron Blackthorn 11-05-03, 12:16 PM	What ever happened to the Flind? I thought that they were great monsters with their flail and all. BRING BACK THE FLIND!!
Amaron Blackthorn 11-05-03, 12:16 PM	What ever happened to the Flind? I thought that they were great monsters with their flail and all. BRING BACK THE FLIND!!
Jamma 11-05-03, 03:07 PM	hay why let the gnolls come out thay should be in a cage !!!!!!! :b: :b: :b: :b:
Qit el-Remel 11-05-03, 05:33 PM	Originally posted by Laughing Hyena Velox Random mass destruction? Gnolls don't seem to be the type to launch random nuclear strikes... They like eating their prey, and that's rather hard when it's vaporized or irradiated. And besides, they have too much respect for nature to use that sort of weapon. LOL! I meant "random mass destruction" as in "running through town slaughtering things right and left." Eresh is the Southlands' answer to Cyric or Erythnul. -Qit
The Ethereal Wickerman 11-22-03, 03:45 PM	Can I join, I think Gnolls are cool... :D Im going to be DMing soon, and I have two NPCs that are somewhat of a bland and normal elderly couple in my campaign world. CG Male Bugbear Expert (book-restorer)/Adept and... NG Female Gnoll Expert (book-archivist)/Adept As you can tell both are adamant book collectors and have an intrest in magic. They dont have the dedication or the need to become Wizards however. They are content with their peaceful life and business owning an arcana libary in the Sorceror city of Gheld'thinn. What do you think of the stats. Im planning on making an elderly couple of a CG male bugbear and a NG female gnoll. They've had 5 children togethor. The siblings form an adventure party and in this particular campaign they will at some point join the players in their quests. I would imagine that they would look like bulkier, more muscular Gnolls with rounder faces and lighter-colred fur. BUGNOLL Medium-sized Humanoid (Gnoll, Goblinoid) HD: 2d8+3 (12 hp) Initiative: +0 Speed: 20 ft. (with scale armor) base 30 ft. AC: 18 (+2 natural, +4 scale armor, +2 large shield) Attacks: Battleaxe +3 melee; or javelin +3 ranged Damage: Battleaxe 1d8+2; or javelin 1d6+2 Face/Reach: 5 ft. by 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: - Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft. Saves: Fort +3, Ref +2, Will +0 Abilities: Str 15, Dex 11, Con 13, Int 9, Wis 11, Cha 8 Skills: Climb +2, Listen +2, Spot +2 Feats: Power Attack ____________________________ Climate/Terrain: Any land and underground Organization: Solitary, pair or gang (3-8) CR: 1 Treasure: Standard Alignment: Usually chaotic evil Advancement: By character class
Nifft 11-22-03, 03:53 PM	Hey! :) Everyone go check out my Gnoll as PrC thread! http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=136583 -- N
Preacher of barbs 11-22-03, 04:32 PM	Interesting. Altough 'intellectual' professions like bookkeepers is pretty hard with races that have INT penalties (I wanted to make my Gnoll female to be a spellcaster but she would just be too bad at it) Its funny you had them play experts. I planned to have a game where ALL classes be expert. You had to customise it slightly if you wanted to have acces to anything special (reduce HD type to get some magic etc it's quite easy actually) But a nice Gnoll girl with as bugbear? Yucky Bugbears ;-P PoB
The Ethereal Wickerman 11-23-03, 03:27 AM	Originally posted by Preacher of barbs Interesting. Altough 'intellectual' professions like bookkeepers is pretty hard with races that have INT penalties (I wanted to make my Gnoll female to be a spellcaster but she would just be too bad at it) Its funny you had them play experts. I planned to have a game where ALL classes be expert. You had to customise it slightly if you wanted to have acces to anything special (reduce HD type to get some magic etc it's quite easy actually) But a nice Gnoll girl with as bugbear? Yucky Bugbears ;-P PoB It all depends on the world. You see in my campaign world most parts have mixed races and theres little rascism, about as much as there is in our world. Which I suppose is a great deal really. Anyway they are relatively normal couple for my campaigns...:D
The Ethereal Wickerman 11-23-03, 03:35 AM	Hey since we cant have numbers anymore because of the new CoC rules, why not have titles. I think i'll be... Redbite CN Wizard 9/Druid 2/Master of the Flies 10 Redbite was a NPC of mine. He had an obsession with arachnids. Hell his mount was even a monstrous scorpion!.
aravilar_holistacia 11-24-03, 01:05 AM	Please review the CoC guidelines posted by WizO_Catoblepas for all foundations. They are crucial points to review so that our foundations will not be locked. aravilar PS: :bump:
Qit el-Remel 11-25-03, 04:01 PM	Originally posted by Tenzhi In the 2nd Edition Monstrous Manual (1993 - worship me in 11 years :rolleyes: ) Flinds are listed as a subrace of Gnoll. Which is what I think they should be. But a friend of mine keeps arguing that flinds aren't "necessary" now that gnolls can earn class levels. I informed him that flinds were in the Complete Book of Humanoids. :D -Qit
Preacher of barbs 11-25-03, 06:13 PM	Well it makes sense to have Flinds progress differently from Gnolls if they have different stats (if they have a lower ST bonus their youths 'stop' growing sooner for example). But a sub-race means there has to be a minimum number of Flinds within any tribe so they can procreate among themselves. Or do they stick together in their own bands and sometimes one enters a gnoll tribe to lead them? What does everyone think? What does sub-race mean? Do Flinds occur naturally whithin Gnolls or are they grouped apart, joining Gnolls from time to time? This is where personal interpretation falls in I guess. Me, i always felt it would be funky to have 'super beings' being born from within the race. Unlike our human geniuses, Flinds would look so different any Gnoll would know they had a 'special boy' from the start. Furthermore, having a different alignment than everyone else suggest they would think totally diferently too. Being lawful would mean they bring order to the anarchy of the Gnolls. They organise them (and relish being on top) and transform a roaming savage band of gnolls into a marching army of death. ohhh I get tingles *0_0* poB Gnoll member # purple
Rogue1stclass 11-30-03, 03:10 PM	Here's an idea... The Flinds are an ancient, advanced peoples who once had a thriving empire. However, the species became decant and the empire crumbled, leaving isolated populations scattered all over the world. Many of these, cut off as they were, decended into barabarism and over the years corrupted into the brutish Gnolls. However, there were still small pockets of civilization in which the Flinds managed to retain some measure of their former selves. These eventually discovered their bestial cousins and took charge of them, hoping to lead them into reclaiming their former glory. It just hasn't worked out too well thus far. The Gnoll's chaotic nature makes them difficult to lead, and there are very few Flinds left. And of course, the decadant Flinds are more eager to vie for personal power than long-term goals, so they constantly try to undercut each other. Or Maybe... Maybe the Flinds are actually female Gnolls. Hyenas are Matriarchal to the point where females have false male organs and often show dominance by miming the male mating position. It would stand that Gnolls would also be matriarchal, with stronger and smarter females. As for the Flindbar? I'd treat it like a Dire Flail. Nunchaku aren't worth much to anyone but Monks. Now that I think about it, Flinds are usually Lawful and use something like nunchaku. Maybe their favored class should be Monk. Perhaps its following some ancient monastic tradition that changes Gnolls to Flinds. Anyway, I'd ditch the Humaniod HD for Flinds. They are far more likely to actually train a class from an early age than Gnolls. And Flinds would really make a better PC race than Gnolls. They are still going to have an LA from their stats, but not much can be done about that.
Qit el-Remel 11-30-03, 06:56 PM	Originally posted by Rogue1stclass Maybe the Flinds are actually female Gnolls. Hyenas are Matriarchal to the point where females have false male organs and often show dominance by miming the male mating position. It would stand that Gnolls would also be matriarchal, with stronger and smarter females. Check my thread in the Mature Think Tank. It's titled "Gnolls!" As for the Flindbar? I'd treat it like a Dire Flail. Nunchaku aren't worth much to anyone but Monks. Now that I think about it, Flinds are usually Lawful and use something like nunchaku. Maybe their favored class should be Monk. Perhaps its following some ancient monastic tradition that changes Gnolls to Flinds. Someone suggested earlier that the favored class for flinds be monk. (The earlier presumption was fighter, but monk actually works better, IMHO). Anyway, I'd ditch the Humaniod HD for Flinds. They are far more likely to actually train a class from an early age than Gnolls. And Flinds would really make a better PC race than Gnolls. They are still going to have an LA from their stats, but not much can be done about that. If you ask me, they should just drop the humanoid HD for gnolls altogether. They'd make a good +1 race if the extra HD were omitted. (I'm actually thinking of putting single-HD gnolls in my campaign setting.) Another interesting alternative would be to write them up as a monster class (as per Savage Species, for those of us who weren't downright offended by that book). How's this? Level 1: Darkvision 60'. Speed 30'. Str +2, Int -2, Cha -2. 4 x (2 + Int mod) skill points; Listen and Spot are class skills. Weapon Familiarity (battleaxe and shortbow). Fort +2. Feat. HD 1d8. Level 2: Con +2, natural armor +1. Level 3: Str +2, 2 + Int mod skill points. Fort +3. BAB +1. HD 2d8. -Qit
Rogue1stclass 12-01-03, 05:41 AM	Originally posted by Qit el-Remel Check my thread in the Mature Think Tank. It's titled "Gnolls!"[/b] Read it. Neat ideas. Gnolls have always been Matriarchial in my games but I'd actually forgotten about Flinds until just recently. I'd intented to play them as a subspecies of ruling Females with their male slaves who use the various clans of lesser Gnolls to try to gain power and status against each other. Kind of like the Grey Seers of Warhammer's Skaven race. But your ideas have given me food for thought. Someone suggested earlier that the favored class for flinds be monk. (The earlier presumption was fighter, but monk actually works better, IMHO). Yeah. It really does fit. The more I think about it, the more it fits. But I don't like it for some reason. They just seem like should be armored. I'll give this more thought once I've gotten used to the idea. If you ask me, they should just drop the humanoid HD for gnolls altogether. They'd make a good +1 race if the extra HD were omitted. (I'm actually thinking of putting single-HD gnolls in my campaign setting.) I agree fully. Making PC's take these hit die is like forcing them to take Commoner levels. For NPC's its fine, but for PC's its a silly idea. Another interesting alternative would be to write them up as a monster class (as per Savage Species, for those of us who weren't downright offended by that book). How's this? Level 1: Darkvision 60'. Speed 30'. Str +2, Int -2, Cha -2. 4 x (2 + Int mod) skill points; Listen and Spot are class skills. Weapon Familiarity (battleaxe and shortbow). Fort +2. Feat. HD 1d8. Level 2: Con +2, natural armor +1. Level 3: Str +2, 2 + Int mod skill points. Fort +3. BAB +1. HD 2d8. -Qit I don't have Savage Species, so I can't really comment on that. Hmm...gonna dig around in my old Complete Book of Humaniods and get the 2e take on this.
The Ethereal Wickerman 12-02-03, 09:20 AM	Actually I consider Flinds the Gnoll equivelant of Ogres, so I of course make them large sized. I dont like this matriarchal idea for Gnolls, but if thats what people want out of their Gnolls then of course its up to them.
Munchmausen 02-14-05, 11:50 AM	I would guess that everyone here is eagerly awaiting the Gnoll info in Races of the Wild, as I am?
Tenzhi 02-14-05, 01:51 PM	I would guess that everyone here is eagerly awaiting the Gnoll info in Races of the Wild, as I am? Gnolls are in Races of the Wild? I'm more interested in any new races/classes/rules/etc that'll show up in it, actually. Learning about the social mores of halflings, gnolls, or hill giants just doesn't interest me because those things will likely be different on my campaign world anyway. Fluff has very limited use.
Munchmausen 02-15-05, 12:18 PM	From what I gleaned from the art gallery, there may be a feat named something like "Gnoll Ferocity". Obviously, I have only a vague idea what it might do, but the fact that they are dropping even a couple bits of crunch into it is good to me.