The Storyteller's Foundation [Archive] - Wizards Community

The Storyteller's Foundation [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dr. Grim
06-10-04, 03:09 AM This foundation is intended to be a place for those who believe that DnD should be above all an interactive story. Possible uses for this foundation could be how to add extra dramatic flare to a campaign, tools for DMs to create more believable characters, the use of politics in a campaign, etc. In short, anything to do with the storytelling side of DnD is welcome.

A couple of things, though.
*As in other foundations, out of character discussion in black, in character discussion in red.
*As stated previously, all things having to do with the storytelling style of play are welcome.
*Please don't use this foundation as a front for a war between storytellers and hack'n'slashers. Thanks in advance.

I guess I should start this off by asking the question - How does one have their players participate in a complex and involved plot, without resorting to excessive rail-roading?
Tenzhi
06-10-04, 03:49 AM When did this red/black thing start, anyway?

For a bizarre moment I thought this was going to be a foundation dedicated to White Wolf's storyteller system.

As for the question at hand:

I do it with a great deal of improvisation. I don't write adventures so much as create an outline of what's going on and who's involved in the area around the players. Then, when we start the game I let them loose and allow everything to unfold in its natural course. Most of the time I've got no clue exactly what's going to happen next anymore than the players do - I just let my brain fill in the blanks as we go (and my traitorous brain has a habit of surprising me).

The characters consequently get entangled in world-shattering events, I develop a loose idea of who's involved with those events, how much they're going to be ticked off by what's happened so far, etc... and in the next game more fewmets hit the proverbial air elemental. This continues from session to session until a climax is reached. I call it "fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants DMing."
Dr. Grim
06-10-04, 04:07 AM Good answer! I guess it does have a lot to do with improvisation.

About the red/black thing...... I've seen it in other foundation threads, so I guessed it was on its way to being standard, at least in the guildhouse. Red most likely because it contrasts nicely with the white/blue background.

Dr. Grim :smirk:
Silmarien Aldalome
06-10-04, 11:17 PM Well done Dr Grim. I'm in. I truly believe D&D is about telling a good story, and that rules are the device for supporting the narrative and not vice versa.

I think that rules assist to propel equity in game play by their attention to game balance and, if applied right, foster goodwill in campaign settings.

@ Tenzhi - *chuckles* - the red/black distinction was a spontaneous emergence. I think I saw it first at the Library of Signatures.

How does one have their players participate in a complex and involved plot, without resorting to excessive rail-roading?

This is a really good question.

It doesn't have an easy answer. But I begin by saying that I have often struggled with the balance between imposing a "top-down" narrative, devised for flavour's sake, which is offset against the reality of the "bottum up" narrative, formed on the ground, by players who interpret the same information in distinct, subtle and unusual ways.

Stav
Sssargoth
06-10-04, 11:39 PM Originally posted by Silmarien Aldalome
@ Tenzhi - *chuckles* - the red/black distinction was a spontaneous emergence. I think I saw it first at the Library of Signatures.

@Sil- Blane might have gotten the idea from me in the psionics foundation, and I got it from Drake Dragonslayer in the assassins guild and he got it from someplace else, so its been around a while.

now, on topic:

I just hope that I have a good DM that can ad-lib, because I tend to do things in highley unexpected ways. If a player can not keep their DM on their toes, they aren't a good player.
De Batavier
06-27-04, 02:08 PM Well this is what the game is about story telling. I haven't DM-d that much. Therefore i find it still difficult to not try to force the player (only one player the last couple of times, the one who normaly DMs).
It is getting better. I try to let him set te pace and determine what he is going to do. This means a lot of improvising. Been a while now since i DM-d or played for that matter.
As DM you must have a storyline and leave clues and maybe even block some options. But it must be done in such a way that the player has the feeling he, or at least his character, has a free choice.

There is a different side to the coin. I know that characters would not allways respond to a DMs plans. But how difficult must a player make it for the DM? As player, IMO, you sometimes must also put the story and the continuation of the game before strict in character play.
To go on a new adventure, while the character would probably just prefered to stay at home with his family.

The storytelling is something people on both sides of the DM screen must work on.
Silmarien Aldalome
06-27-04, 09:41 PM *evil grin*

I like to hi-jack the DM's plans by the introduction of novel story lines.

Players can and do introduce ideas that play out. I often gravitate to NPC's that a DM chucked in for a minor reason. And - then develop them by writing letters to the NPC for various reasons.

Usually, by the third letter - the DM gets worn down and you getta response. Or - rather I should say, the DM realises that it's important to you and is happy to go along with it.

....for as the Battle of Tryptic's was begun, there came many thousands of Orcs from the Rilla Mountains, and also the Dark Legions of the Undead from Pendor. And between these two - the Solarmic Knights, who swear no fealty to the Custodians of Mythal Skybridge.

As the dark hordes raised their bloody shields, hooting and hollering, there came a sudden horn blast, clear and strong it rang out over the battle field. And so it was that the Legions of Elves, long since forgotten, arrived, bearing the Banner of the Northern Flame. The Silver and Blue blowing in the wind, and the Arcane Archers of the Elves at the fore.

Their leader, Larreyan stands at the head of the Vanguard, and he looses an arrow into the airs, that explodes into Arcane blue over the battle field, showering the enemy with its fires. He turns to the Allied Forces and says

"This is what discovery of our Hidden City has cost. For war is now on our doorstep." His face sets into a grim visage as he signals to the Elves to engage the Enemy Host.

The above NPC wasn't supposed to feature in our campaign - but with some player work - we have him as a permanent fixture of our game. He was developed into the leader of the Willow Herald, who formed a more forward-thinking and more egalitarian High Elf. For his deviation from Elven culture - he was exiled from the Northern Flame. But, he is brave and true, in that he sees the corruption in the Elven Council and tried to stop it. Larrean and 100 Elves have settled with Sil and her friends in the Vale where Mythal Skybridge is still alive....
De Batavier
06-28-04, 05:41 AM Yes. I have had a similair experience with a NPC. My wizard was in search of a tutor. After some bad experiences with one, he was constantly searching for a NPC he only had briefly met before. The DM though had little difficulty with making that NPC a recuring one, it was a very fun NPC.

I think that is a sign of a good DM. The goal is an interesting story. If the PCs show interest in a particulair NPC or place that part of the story can be expanded.

I think that as a DM you must have the ability to start out on a different path if the players show more interest in that.
Now i hope that is an aquired skill and not something you have or have not, because at the moment i see myself as a have not ;)
Agudo Archmage
06-30-04, 12:29 PM I myself DM with the thought that the storyline should be free-flowing.
For example, I really wanted an old fashion Castle siege, as the main idea for one game.

But the characters that played in my story, developed several sub-plots, and it turned more into a tragic Greek play.

The game was still fun, and its always better to work with others in any game you DM.
De Batavier
06-30-04, 01:12 PM I agree.

Is storytelling, good storytelling, an aquired skill or is it also a matter of talent?
When was DM a few times the quality depended also on how much effort was put in before by me. Though i had in a sense a stricter plot to follow, it seemed improvisation went better compared to the not so prepared sessions.

I think it is the tiny details that can make or brake a good story. My (better) prepared session contained more details and a more fleshed out NPC.
So experience is a factor. Though i think some people have a natural potential to tell good stories.

Ofcourse D&D is an interactive story. If players are more rollplayers instead off roleplayers i think that will hurt the story. So players should also be good storytellers.
You can notice progression on that front also. I think i'm a better player then when i started.

:cool:
Silmarien Aldalome
06-30-04, 07:00 PM Originally posted by Agudo Archmage
I myself DM with the thought that the storyline should be free-flowing.
For example, I really wanted an old fashion Castle siege, as the main idea for one game.

But the characters that played in my story, developed several sub-plots, and it turned more into a tragic Greek play.

The game was still fun, and its always better to work with others in any game you DM.

Agudo! ...Silmarien's eyes widen in pleasant surprise, and she breaks into a grin ear to ear. She bows before Agudo - for the Arch Mage is well known amongst the community of wizards. Sil strikes the heel of the metal-shod Rune-Staff on the ground. From 100 elles, you see her form immolated in Azure and a bolt of Acrane-Blue is hurled into the heavens - and it explodes into a canopy of silvery-stars that fall harmlessely to the ground.

"Well Met" Sil says.

Greetings and welcome Agudo

I like this. "Spontaneity" comes to mind. As does "faith" (in one's RP ability or potential) and also "trust" (of the people you D&D with) and "risk-taking" (i.e. push the boundaries of your acting skills - which I find means feeling scared).

@DB - g'day there as well....

"Interactive" - is a good way to put it. And definitely experience too.

I can remember as well - that the new players - who don't know what it all means - I think makes the experience forever memorable.

I remember my first character with great fondness.

regards
stav
De Batavier
07-01-04, 06:51 AM Interactive is important. Players must feel they have a say in the destiny of their character. On the other hand uncertainty is also necessary to build up tension and suspense.
Death must be a possibility.
Players must feel that their characters are in danger and that thye will not always be saved.

Though i think death should not occur regulary. In our campaign raise death and resurrection are not used.
My dwarf died, but he came back as an undead working for a power he was allied to in life.
An other players character was turned into a psionicaly gifted book. Though that didn't interest him for long.
Agudo Archmage
07-01-04, 12:08 PM Silmarien

Agudo! ...Silmarien''s eyes widen in pleasant surprise, and she breaks into a grin ear to ear. She bows before Agudo - for the Arch Mage is well known amongst the community of wizards. Sil strikes the heel of the metal-shod Rune-Staff on the ground. From 100 elles, you see her form immolated in Azure and a bolt of Acrane-Blue is hurled into the heavens - and it explodes into a canopy of silvery-stars that fall harmlessely to the ground.

As the Archmage of Light looks on at the colorful display.
He leans his head over to the lovely wise white owl on his shoulder.
"You know Lady Hoot its always wonderful to see Silmarien.
She is so much fun to have at a party"

Lady Hoot nods her head then adds.
"Yes but its to to bad she been band from the Dwarven Black Powder and Ranger Wood Guilds"

Agudo laughs.
"Yes well..."Laugh"
every time she shoots off one of those things.
It makes life such a balst! :rofl:

Hail and well met Stav :D
De Batavier
07-04-04, 08:36 AM I believe humor should be included in stories, but the story in itself must stay serious. How much comic relieve should you put in an advanture? Should it be a prepared thing or just a natural part of the progression of the story (the serious meant NPC just turned out funny, because that seemed right at the time).
Silmarien Aldalome
07-05-04, 12:02 AM @DeB - it's always good to have a laugh - seems like it happens without any planning in many cases. Sorta spontaneous.

@Agudo

:rofl:

...summons the Mages of Water - just in case! Or, erm, the Frost Giants......

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dr. Grim 06-10-04, 03:09 AM	This foundation is intended to be a place for those who believe that DnD should be above all an interactive story. Possible uses for this foundation could be how to add extra dramatic flare to a campaign, tools for DMs to create more believable characters, the use of politics in a campaign, etc. In short, anything to do with the storytelling side of DnD is welcome. A couple of things, though. As in other foundations, out of character discussion in black, in character discussion in red. As stated previously, all things having to do with the storytelling style of play are welcome. *Please don't use this foundation as a front for a war between storytellers and hack'n'slashers. Thanks in advance. I guess I should start this off by asking the question - How does one have their players participate in a complex and involved plot, without resorting to excessive rail-roading?
Tenzhi 06-10-04, 03:49 AM	When did this red/black thing start, anyway? For a bizarre moment I thought this was going to be a foundation dedicated to White Wolf's storyteller system. As for the question at hand: I do it with a great deal of improvisation. I don't write adventures so much as create an outline of what's going on and who's involved in the area around the players. Then, when we start the game I let them loose and allow everything to unfold in its natural course. Most of the time I've got no clue exactly what's going to happen next anymore than the players do - I just let my brain fill in the blanks as we go (and my traitorous brain has a habit of surprising me). The characters consequently get entangled in world-shattering events, I develop a loose idea of who's involved with those events, how much they're going to be ticked off by what's happened so far, etc... and in the next game more fewmets hit the proverbial air elemental. This continues from session to session until a climax is reached. I call it "fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants DMing."
Dr. Grim 06-10-04, 04:07 AM	Good answer! I guess it does have a lot to do with improvisation. About the red/black thing...... I've seen it in other foundation threads, so I guessed it was on its way to being standard, at least in the guildhouse. Red most likely because it contrasts nicely with the white/blue background. Dr. Grim :smirk:
Silmarien Aldalome 06-10-04, 11:17 PM	Well done Dr Grim. I'm in. I truly believe D&D is about telling a good story, and that rules are the device for supporting the narrative and not vice versa. I think that rules assist to propel equity in game play by their attention to game balance and, if applied right, foster goodwill in campaign settings. @ Tenzhi - chuckles - the red/black distinction was a spontaneous emergence. I think I saw it first at the Library of Signatures. How does one have their players participate in a complex and involved plot, without resorting to excessive rail-roading? This is a really good question. It doesn't have an easy answer. But I begin by saying that I have often struggled with the balance between imposing a "top-down" narrative, devised for flavour's sake, which is offset against the reality of the "bottum up" narrative, formed on the ground, by players who interpret the same information in distinct, subtle and unusual ways. Stav
Sssargoth 06-10-04, 11:39 PM	Originally posted by Silmarien Aldalome @ Tenzhi - chuckles - the red/black distinction was a spontaneous emergence. I think I saw it first at the Library of Signatures. @Sil- Blane might have gotten the idea from me in the psionics foundation, and I got it from Drake Dragonslayer in the assassins guild and he got it from someplace else, so its been around a while. now, on topic: I just hope that I have a good DM that can ad-lib, because I tend to do things in highley unexpected ways. If a player can not keep their DM on their toes, they aren't a good player.
De Batavier 06-27-04, 02:08 PM	Well this is what the game is about story telling. I haven't DM-d that much. Therefore i find it still difficult to not try to force the player (only one player the last couple of times, the one who normaly DMs). It is getting better. I try to let him set te pace and determine what he is going to do. This means a lot of improvising. Been a while now since i DM-d or played for that matter. As DM you must have a storyline and leave clues and maybe even block some options. But it must be done in such a way that the player has the feeling he, or at least his character, has a free choice. There is a different side to the coin. I know that characters would not allways respond to a DMs plans. But how difficult must a player make it for the DM? As player, IMO, you sometimes must also put the story and the continuation of the game before strict in character play. To go on a new adventure, while the character would probably just prefered to stay at home with his family. The storytelling is something people on both sides of the DM screen must work on.
Silmarien Aldalome 06-27-04, 09:41 PM	evil grin I like to hi-jack the DM's plans by the introduction of novel story lines. Players can and do introduce ideas that play out. I often gravitate to NPC's that a DM chucked in for a minor reason. And - then develop them by writing letters to the NPC for various reasons. Usually, by the third letter - the DM gets worn down and you getta response. Or - rather I should say, the DM realises that it's important to you and is happy to go along with it. ....for as the Battle of Tryptic's was begun, there came many thousands of Orcs from the Rilla Mountains, and also the Dark Legions of the Undead from Pendor. And between these two - the Solarmic Knights, who swear no fealty to the Custodians of Mythal Skybridge. As the dark hordes raised their bloody shields, hooting and hollering, there came a sudden horn blast, clear and strong it rang out over the battle field. And so it was that the Legions of Elves, long since forgotten, arrived, bearing the Banner of the Northern Flame. The Silver and Blue blowing in the wind, and the Arcane Archers of the Elves at the fore. Their leader, Larreyan stands at the head of the Vanguard, and he looses an arrow into the airs, that explodes into Arcane blue over the battle field, showering the enemy with its fires. He turns to the Allied Forces and says "This is what discovery of our Hidden City has cost. For war is now on our doorstep." His face sets into a grim visage as he signals to the Elves to engage the Enemy Host. The above NPC wasn't supposed to feature in our campaign - but with some player work - we have him as a permanent fixture of our game. He was developed into the leader of the Willow Herald, who formed a more forward-thinking and more egalitarian High Elf. For his deviation from Elven culture - he was exiled from the Northern Flame. But, he is brave and true, in that he sees the corruption in the Elven Council and tried to stop it. Larrean and 100 Elves have settled with Sil and her friends in the Vale where Mythal Skybridge is still alive....
De Batavier 06-28-04, 05:41 AM	Yes. I have had a similair experience with a NPC. My wizard was in search of a tutor. After some bad experiences with one, he was constantly searching for a NPC he only had briefly met before. The DM though had little difficulty with making that NPC a recuring one, it was a very fun NPC. I think that is a sign of a good DM. The goal is an interesting story. If the PCs show interest in a particulair NPC or place that part of the story can be expanded. I think that as a DM you must have the ability to start out on a different path if the players show more interest in that. Now i hope that is an aquired skill and not something you have or have not, because at the moment i see myself as a have not ;)
Agudo Archmage 06-30-04, 12:29 PM	I myself DM with the thought that the storyline should be free-flowing. For example, I really wanted an old fashion Castle siege, as the main idea for one game. But the characters that played in my story, developed several sub-plots, and it turned more into a tragic Greek play. The game was still fun, and its always better to work with others in any game you DM.
De Batavier 06-30-04, 01:12 PM	I agree. Is storytelling, good storytelling, an aquired skill or is it also a matter of talent? When was DM a few times the quality depended also on how much effort was put in before by me. Though i had in a sense a stricter plot to follow, it seemed improvisation went better compared to the not so prepared sessions. I think it is the tiny details that can make or brake a good story. My (better) prepared session contained more details and a more fleshed out NPC. So experience is a factor. Though i think some people have a natural potential to tell good stories. Ofcourse D&D is an interactive story. If players are more rollplayers instead off roleplayers i think that will hurt the story. So players should also be good storytellers. You can notice progression on that front also. I think i'm a better player then when i started. :cool:
Silmarien Aldalome 06-30-04, 07:00 PM	Originally posted by Agudo Archmage I myself DM with the thought that the storyline should be free-flowing. For example, I really wanted an old fashion Castle siege, as the main idea for one game. But the characters that played in my story, developed several sub-plots, and it turned more into a tragic Greek play. The game was still fun, and its always better to work with others in any game you DM. Agudo! ...Silmarien's eyes widen in pleasant surprise, and she breaks into a grin ear to ear. She bows before Agudo - for the Arch Mage is well known amongst the community of wizards. Sil strikes the heel of the metal-shod Rune-Staff on the ground. From 100 elles, you see her form immolated in Azure and a bolt of Acrane-Blue is hurled into the heavens - and it explodes into a canopy of silvery-stars that fall harmlessely to the ground. "Well Met" Sil says. Greetings and welcome Agudo I like this. "Spontaneity" comes to mind. As does "faith" (in one's RP ability or potential) and also "trust" (of the people you D&D with) and "risk-taking" (i.e. push the boundaries of your acting skills - which I find means feeling scared). @DB - g'day there as well.... "Interactive" - is a good way to put it. And definitely experience too. I can remember as well - that the new players - who don't know what it all means - I think makes the experience forever memorable. I remember my first character with great fondness. regards stav
De Batavier 07-01-04, 06:51 AM	Interactive is important. Players must feel they have a say in the destiny of their character. On the other hand uncertainty is also necessary to build up tension and suspense. Death must be a possibility. Players must feel that their characters are in danger and that thye will not always be saved. Though i think death should not occur regulary. In our campaign raise death and resurrection are not used. My dwarf died, but he came back as an undead working for a power he was allied to in life. An other players character was turned into a psionicaly gifted book. Though that didn't interest him for long.
Agudo Archmage 07-01-04, 12:08 PM	Silmarien Agudo! ...Silmarien''s eyes widen in pleasant surprise, and she breaks into a grin ear to ear. She bows before Agudo - for the Arch Mage is well known amongst the community of wizards. Sil strikes the heel of the metal-shod Rune-Staff on the ground. From 100 elles, you see her form immolated in Azure and a bolt of Acrane-Blue is hurled into the heavens - and it explodes into a canopy of silvery-stars that fall harmlessely to the ground. As the Archmage of Light looks on at the colorful display. He leans his head over to the lovely wise white owl on his shoulder. "You know Lady Hoot its always wonderful to see Silmarien. She is so much fun to have at a party" Lady Hoot nods her head then adds. "Yes but its to to bad she been band from the Dwarven Black Powder and Ranger Wood Guilds" Agudo laughs. "Yes well..."Laugh" every time she shoots off one of those things. It makes life such a balst! :rofl: Hail and well met Stav :D
De Batavier 07-04-04, 08:36 AM	I believe humor should be included in stories, but the story in itself must stay serious. How much comic relieve should you put in an advanture? Should it be a prepared thing or just a natural part of the progression of the story (the serious meant NPC just turned out funny, because that seemed right at the time).
Silmarien Aldalome 07-05-04, 12:02 AM	@DeB - it's always good to have a laugh - seems like it happens without any planning in many cases. Sorta spontaneous. @Agudo :rofl: ...summons the Mages of Water - just in case! Or, erm, the Frost Giants......